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Negotiating A $12,000 Copywriting Project

Below is a full transcript of a conversation I had with a copywriting client who approached me
for help with a sales page in 2017.

I ended up selling him on 2 x sales pages at $6,000 apiece.

I’ve included my commentary so you can see what I did to win the job (and in hindsight, what I
did wrong!).

Thursday, November 9, 2017

Client

Hi Daniel!

I read your profile, reviews, and your sales page. I would love to talk to you about this project.

Also, I really need to have a go to person for all my sales copy including other courses and
emails, so hopefully I found the right guy!

Thanks,
CLIENT

[This was the client’s original invitation to the job. As you can see, he was keen on me from the
beginning because of my profile. However, there’s still a long way to go from ‘keen’ to ‘sold’.]

Daniel Throssell

Hi CLIENT, thanks for getting in touch.

My schedule is pretty full right now, so I’m not sure if I’ll be able to take on any work, but just
to give me an idea, can you let me know:

- What’s the price point of this course?

- What kind of revenue numbers are you doing now with your current list?
- What kind of relationship do you have with your list? Do you nurture them a lot?
- What have previous launches been like, or what numbers are you expecting from this one?

persuasivepage.com
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[Note how I don’t just dive in and start begging to work with him. I immediately say I’m not sure if
I’ll be able to take on the job, which was true. (I was actually on holiday in Japan at the time.) I
also gave him several questions. This wasn’t just a gimmick, btw. I actually wanted to know if he
was serious, because I didn’t have much other info about his business.]

Obviously the numbers are too fuzzy to quote you anything without knowing this stuff.
Ignore my bid, it’s a placeholder, although I would expect it’d be several thousand dollars.

[I often use this line in proposals. I always include a very high rate that’s higher than what I will
end up quoting them. This subconsciously triggers ‘anchoring’ in the client’s mind, making my
final quoted price look cheaper.]

If that’s out of your range for now, I can also provide names of writers at various price points
whom I recommend. Let me know either way.

[Note the total non-neediness of this proposal. I am leaving him no range for negotiation. If I am
too expensive, I am happy to refer other cheaper writers.]

Daniel

Friday, November 10, 2017, 12:58 AM

Client

Hi Daniel!
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I'll give you an overview of our business first, then
I'll answer your questions specifically afterwards:

Here is a little bit about what we do:

<Lots of details about business>

Let me know what other questions you have!

Thanks,
CLIENT

Monday, November 13, 2017, 4:16 AM

Daniel Throssell
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Hey CLIENT, sorry for the delay — I’m actually in Japan on holiday at the moment! My first
reply was probably a bit lucky as I was in a cafe when I saw your invitation.

[Totally true, though probably not super professional of me. But sometimes you just want to enjoy
your holiday in Japan.]

Thanks for the information. I generally just like to check whether people are serious before I
talk to them, and it definitely seems like you and NAME are serious.

For now, though, I’m still on holiday till the end of the week and don’t have much bandwidth
for work. Also I wasn’t exaggerating when I said I have a pretty full schedule and a lot of
requests so even as much as I’d like to take on new work I can’t always fit it in. But we’ll see —
if it’s OK with you, I’ll get back to you later this week or early next week when I’m settled
back in at home, and we can work something out. Thanks!

[Note I’m still acting like I don’t need this job. To be honest, this was a little over the top. I possibly
risked the job here — I’d delayed him a few days and now was making him wait another week,
plus rubbing in that I may not take the job. It was probably too much. But I really couldn’t be
bothered looking at this while I was on holiday.]

Tuesday, November 14, 2017, 3:46 AM

Client

Thanks Daniel...sure, contact me when you are back home and let's see if there is a fit here.

[Note the client’s tone changed a little to assert his own rights — “see if there’s a fit”. This is
probably because I pushed so hard that he’s trying to assert himself a little. That’s why I say I
probably overdid it.]

Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 9:23 PM

Daniel Throssell

Hi CLIENT, apologies again for the delay; I'm back on deck in Australia.

So I've taken a quick look at your blog and sales page. I always take a look at clients' sites to
get a feel for who they are, and I have to confess: I watched <SPECIFIC VIDEO> and I really
enjoyed it. So many of the people who contact me just seem to be so dry and business-y! I
have many younger siblings and a little boy myself, so I appreciated the family angle.

[I’m deliberately showing I did my research on him by quoting a specific video. I’m also giving him
a genuine compliment. People like doing business with those they like.]
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For the sales page, I could definitely make you more money there! I can see a ton of
opportunities to make that thing convert better, which is pretty exciting. And given that you
have some very decent traffic figures, it could be worth a lot of money to you. I'm not usually
that candid about that, but this time it seems pretty clear to me you could have some big
wins there.

[I’m actually being serious here. I was genuinely enthusiastic about his numbers. When you’re
enthusiastic, show it!]

The biggest issue is my availability. At the moment I do have a pretty full schedule till the
Christmas period as I’m finishing off a contract with another client. As such, it’s possible I
might be able to do something for you for your January launch … but I wouldn’t bet on it
necessarily. I’d say February would be a more realistic estimate (that is, rewriting in January
for a February launch).

[Here I push back on the timeline … again, you want to retain the control and be the one who they
have to wait for, ideally.]

I’m optimistic about the gains you could see by rewriting that page, since it’s serving as a
large part of your funnel … but I also get that waiting a month or two might not be what you
wanted, so I understand if that’s a problem.

[I just pushed him away so I’m throwing in benefits again. But I’m also asserting myself and
saying again there will be no negotiation. If he can’t wait, I understand, and he can leave. I won’t
be hurrying myself up. Obviously, this is dangerous if you’re doing it as a gimmick. I was serious.]

Also, I would like to see — if you have them — some testimonials from people who’ve taken
the course. From what I can see, you’re running a fairly good brand; however, it’s a personal
principle to make sure I work with the best of the best. Put another way, I only write for
products I’d sell to one of my own family members. So if you have proof of the course
working (and you seem to, from your message) it would put me at ease to be able to see that.

[I loved to do this to clients. If you demand proof of it being a product, you force your client to
jump through hoops for you, which raises your status and lowers theirs. But who could argue with
wanting to only work with ethical clients? So nobody ever pushed back on this.]

Let me know your thoughts and we can discuss further if needed.

Daniel

Client
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10:43 PM

Hi Daniel,
Thanks for the message! I would definitely entertain redoing the page for the February
launch. I really appreciate you watching the VIDEO to get a better idea of who we are. I've
got a ton of testimonials. Most of these are from the Facebook groups, so I will get you a
bunch of screenshots and send them over to you. We do a 30 Day Money Back guarantee on
our course and our refund rate is very low. In fact, the only people that we have ever had to
refund are because of monetary issues...none that were stating the course was the reason.
I look forward to possibly working with you!
Thanks,
CLIENT

[This worked perfectly. Note how he’s trying to qualify himself to me.]

CLIENT 11:16 PM
Here are some screenshots of comments from people that have taken our course. These are
in private Facebook groups so if you like, I can provide you links to a bunch more threads
with lots more testimonials, but you have to request access to the groups. Let me know...

Wednesday, November 22, 2017, 8:39 PM

Daniel Throssell

Hi CLIENT, thank you for that -- they definitely look like good testimonials so that makes me
feel better.

At the moment I'm currently in discussions with a couple of other clients about the timing of
some other projects I'm working on through January. That'll affect my availability for you, so
give me a day or two to try and sort that out and then hopefully I can get back to you with a
more concrete plan and we can work out some details. I think aiming for the February launch
would be realistic and would give us time to work things out, but I will confirm this with you.
Thanks!

[Okay, so here I was definitely pushing it too much. I had a tendency sometimes to subconsciously
try and sabotage jobs because I hated client work … and this is probably one example. I should
have just gotten back to him with the next steps here. But he was quite sold on me thus far so it
worked out.]
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Thursday, November 23, 2017, 12:27 AM

Client

That sounds good Daniel!

Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 9:02 PM

Daniel Throssell

Hi CLIENT, just touching base to let you know I haven't heard back from one of the main
clients who I was supposed to have a major project with ... didn't mean to have left you
hanging, so my apologies. If I can't confirm anything from them in the next day or so I will just
work out timing with you and fit things around that. Thanks and apologies again.

[Again. Pushing it too much. Don’t do this.]

Thursday, November 30, 2017, 3:02 AM

Client

Thanks for the update Daniel!

Friday, December 1, 2017, 7:12 PM

Daniel Throssell

Hi CLIENT,

Thanks for your patience on this. Here are my thoughts:

I think if we rewrite your page (or pages really — both are quite similar), you’ll be able to
benefit in two ways:

Firstly, we’ll boost conversions … obviously.

But secondly, more persuasive copy is going to allow you to support a higher price point …
which is going to be a very good thing for your business.
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Later, we can talk about how we best do that (I’ve done a very successful campaign where I
actually made my client $2.3 million by raising their price), but let’s focus on getting a good
page in place first.

[Subtly flexing to show my authority.]

So how would we go about it? Well, my process for rewriting the page would look like this:

[Like I teach in Market Detective, clients love seeing you have a ‘process’.]

1. I schedule a call with you to gather information I would need to write the page: your
backstory, content we could use, etc. (An effective sales page offers valuable content as well
as just persuasive material — something which is totally lacking in the current pages)

[Side note, I don’t necessarily agree with this sentiment today … my sales pages now don’t contain
‘valuable content’ these days]

2. I design a survey that we send to your email list.

3. I analyse the survey to understand your customers’ profile and harvest language I can use
for the page.

4. Based on the survey results, I rewrite your page to better align with what your market says
they want.

5. You review the draft, we talk over any minor changes that need implementing, and then I
deliver the final page.

This is the same process I’ve used for some of my biggest clients to generate hundreds of
thousands of dollars on their sales pages. The truth is, at your size, your copywriter really
needs to dive into your market, rather than just make it up.

[Flexing again. I’m trying to reassure him that I have done this before; this is a tried and proven
process. Also I’m reminding him he is playing in the ‘big leagues’ now and my competition won’t
cut it.]

Now at the moment, my day rate is $1500. From experience, this is going to take about 4-5
days of solid work, plus time spent learning about your market and getting to know your
brand … so I’d call it $6000 all up.

[My hourly rate at this time, I think, was $250/hr. However I sometimes found it useful to use the
‘day rate’ to justify how much time I quoted. It sounds less intimidating to tell a client it will take
four days than 32 hours. You might not even need to do this at all. Note how I’m also positioning
it as a bit of a good deal for him, since my maths would make it work out to more than 6k.
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HOWEVER as you will see, I messed up here. He was talking to me about 2 pages … and I just
quoted for 1. This was stupid of me and made the sale harder, as you will see.]

I’m guessing that’s probably a fair bit more than you paid for the current pages you have.
Here’s the thing though: I’m always very honest with clients about whether it would be
worth it to hire me, and it’s no lie when I say in my Upwork profile that I turn down most jobs
— probably about 90% of them. Usually I say they won’t see a decent ROI. In your case, I
think you’re one of the rare clients who has the numbers and scale to easily get it back — I
mean, that’s a bit over 15 extra sales, which I think we could pull in easily on a list your size.

[I’m being totally genuine here. He really was going to make it back. I’m just doing the maths for
him to show him that.]

Plus — if you’ll forgive me saying so — your current sales pages are kind of weak, and your
price point low, for someone turning over as much as you. I actually think this is a good thing:
it’s a lot of opportunity.

[Twist the knife a little bit, and make him feel like as a professional business owner he should be a
little bit ashamed at his current state of disarray. I am the person who can help him.]

However, I don’t expect you to just blindly take all the risk — I’m confident I can beat your
current page, so I am happy to take that. If you wanted to proceed, I’d request half the fee
upon delivery of a first draft that you’re happy with — and the other half once you’ve done a
successful launch with the page and beat your current control, to prove it’s going to be
profitable for you. I will also guarantee that if it didn’t beat your control, I would rework it at
my expense until it did.

[Here I take away all the risk. I was happy to do this because it was clear I could beat his page.]

If, on the other hand, the page is successful, and you end up making more money, I’d ask for a
testimonial and the stats on how the page performed to add to my portfolio.

[Note how I attach a condition to my guarantee: if I win, he has to give me a testimonial. This
avoids me looking needy or scared by trying to guarantee my work; instead, it becomes a ‘wager’
of sorts between us. And since I know I’ll ‘win’, I’m also locking in a good testimonial for myself.]

As for timeframe, I still think what I originally told you is realistic. I have a few free days over
the next month but not enough to guarantee I’d get everything done (after all, some of this
stuff takes time — like surveying your list). So I think that having it ready for a February
launch is realistic.

Let me know your thoughts on this. I've got a couple of other quotes to get out this weekend,
but I've owed you this one so I'll let you think it over first! Happy to talk through anything
you have questions about.
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[One last subtle reminder that I’m busy and I have a lot of work going on … he’s competing with
other clients for my services.]

Saturday, December 2, 2017, 4:01 AM

Client

HI Daniel!
I love your write ups. They are well thought out and they are actually digging into issues that
I know we need to address. Also, I like your approach on the pricing. I really think this could
be a good partnership and I look forward to writing that testimonial for you....although I
know I'm not quite the writer that you are!! Also, I'm happy to provide you all the stats you
need. Now I am assuming this pricing is for both sales pages, correct? I'm ready to do this and
really excited for the possibilities.

[Oops. I stuffed up there. Now I’m gonna have to explain that the quote is DOUBLE what he
thinks … not ideal.]

Here are a couple updates for you. <UPDATES>

I have so many projects going on that I think we could work together on. I have a <COURSE>
that is a big part of our funnel that could really be maximized a little more. Also, I wouldn't
mind getting help on some broadcast emails that I plan out. I'm doing OK with this stuff, but I
know you could really increase things for us. But, I know your busy so let's just focus on
these sales pages first.

Also, we are working on creating two separate webinar funnels now....one for <COURSE>
and the other for <COURSE>. These should tie in nicely with the re-written sales pages. Let
me know what you need from me in order to take the next steps. I'd be happy to line up a
phone call like you suggest. Thanks, CLIENT

[Note how excited he is. My previous message clearly sold him.]

7:28 AM
Client

I was also thinking that some Facebook ad writing would be great too if you do that type of
work. I spend a lot of money on ads at Facebook so maximizing the conversion rate on our
ads would make a big impact on our business.
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7:43 AM
Daniel Throssell

Hey CLIENT, great to see the courses are still pulling in revenue! To be honest, I also think
adding in an email funnel that you send to your list will be a big conversion booster. However,
I’d still recommend sales pages are done first, since that’s an asset you can keep reusing for
years and years.

[See how I’m beginning to act as his trusted advisor, and I’m trying to calm him down from his
excitement and recommend an order in which he should complete the projects.]

I have to apologise about my previous message — I’ve just realised the way I spoke about
your pages probably introduced some ambiguity. To be clear, the quote would be for one
page — I was talking about your XYZ course, though it could be for either. It really will take
that much work to get it working. But I’m convinced it’s going to be worth it for you, which is
why I’m willing to not accept any of the fee until you have your hands on a page you’re happy
with.

[Trying to clean up my mess. I reiterate my guarantee to try and soothe his nerves.]

If you need to reconsider, that is no problem. I get that it’s a significant investment. [Note that
once more, I am implying it’s my way or the highway. I’m not going to negotiate a cheaper price.]
That being said, let me share with you a page I wrote earlier this year: <PAGE>

I followed the process in my previous message to write this page. Everything you see in the
lead — all the objections, the headline, the “mental barriers” — came from customer research
I did on his list. I can’t reveal the exact figures to you, but this page has generated seven
figures since launching it earlier this year. You’ll note the price point is very similar to your
product.

Anyway, on that basis, my client has seen nearly a 10,000% ROI on that page. I think there
are other factors that contribute to its success, and I’d never make that guarantee to anyone
(I mean, that’s freaking incredible — it blows me away even!), but it gives you an idea what a
good page can do.

[I admit I wasn’t sure how badly this miscalculation of mine was going to sour the deal — an extra
$6,000 is nothing to sneeze at! — so I was erring on the side of too much selling to try and close
the deal here.]

But feel free to think it over and let me know. It’s possible that research on one course may
overlap with another which would shorten my required time for a second, but honestly I’d
like to get one page out of the way first before we talk about that.
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11:42 AM
Client

Hi Daniel!
Ok, thanks...yes, that does make things a little pricier. I'm not opposed to paying for
quality...especially in this field. If you can improve our results, then it's definitely worth it to
me. I briefly read through your sales page that you sent me and it looks really good, but I'll go
through it a little more when I have some more time. I know you know what you are doing, so
I'm excited to work with you. Let me know the next steps so we can get it going when you
have time. Thanks, CLIENT

[Clearly, he was sold enough on me that he was willing to accept the increased price without too
much hassle.]

7:42 PM
Daniel Throssell

Hi CLIENT -- fantastic! Let me reassure you -- I've built my business and reputation on
helping my clients achieve great results, and I can promise you'll get exactly the same
commitment to making a lot more money after my sales page is in place. That's also why I
don't expect a cent to be paid till you're in possession of a page you're happy with.

However, at the moment it's Saturday evening here, and I actually have a Japanese exam
tomorrow morning ... so let me get back to you on Monday with next steps and we can take it
from there!