Knowledge as Politics by Other Means:

An Interview with Wael Hallaq (Part

One)

May 1 !"1#by Hasan Azad
[Wael Hallaq.]
$hro%gho%t the last three decades& Wael Hallaq has e'erged as one o( the leading scholars o( Isla'ic law in
Western acade'ia) He has 'ade 'a*or contrib%tions not only to the st%dy o( the theory and +ractice o( Isla'ic
law& b%t to the develo+'ent o( a 'ethodology thro%gh which Isla'ic scholars have been able to con(ront
challenges (acing the Isla'ic legal tradition) Hallaq is th%s %niq%ely +laced to address broader q%estions
concerning the 'oral and intellect%al (o%ndations o( co'+eting 'odern +ro*ects) With his 'ost recent wor,& The
Impossible State, Hallaq lays bare the +ower dyna'ics and +olitical +rocesses at the root o( +heno'ena that are
otherwise o(ten e-a'ined +%rely thro%gh the lens o( the legal) In this interview& the (irst o( a two.+art series with
hi'& Hallaq e-+ands %+on so'e o( the i'+lications o( those arg%'ents and the challenges they +ose (or the
(%t%re o( intellect%al engage'ents across vario%s traditions) In +artic%lar& he addresses the (ail%re o( Western
intellect%als to engage with scholars in Isla'ic societies as well as the intellect%al and str%ct%ral challenges
(acing M%sli' scholars) Hallaq also critiq%es the %nderlying hege'onic +ro*ect o( Western liberalis' and the
%ncritical ado+tion o( it by so'e M%sli' thin,ers)
Hasan Azad (HA): One of the debates raging nowadays has been about the inattention that Musli
intelle!tuals re!ei"e in the West. One !an say that# with relati"ely inor e$!e%tions# the odern Musli
%resen!e in# or !ontribution to# the intelle!tual world of the West is near nil. &n the !losing %ages of
yourImpossible State# you ha"e %ointed out that a robust intelle!tual engageent between Musli
thin'ers and their Western !ounter%arts is essential# not only for the sa'e of better Western
understanding of &sla# but also for the sa'e of enlarging the s!o%e of intelle!tual %ossibilities in the
idst of (uro)Aeri!an thought. *our arguent# & belie"e# eant to !on"ey the idea that there is u!h
that the &slai! world"iew and heritage !an !ontribute toward enri!hing our refle!tions on the odern
%ro+e!t# in the West no less than in the (ast. What is that !ontribution# and why is it not ha%%ening, What
are the obsta!les standing in the way,
Wael Hallaq (WA): $o s+ea, o( the +otential contrib%tions o( Isla' to a critiq%e and restr%ct%ring o( the 'odern
+ro*ect is a tall order& one that sho%ld co'e s%bseq%ent to a diagnosis o( the +resent 'odern condition and its
ca%ses) $he obstacles yo% all%ded to are n%'ero%s and '%ltilayered& and originate in both sides o( the divide) I(
there are any (ailings/and there are 'any indeed/they cannot be located on one side only) $he (irst& and 'ost
obvio%s o( co%rse& is the ling%istic obstacle& the only 'eans to co''%nicating ideas) $he West (by which I here
'ean 0%ro+e& its 0nlighten'ent& distinctively modern instit%tions and c%lt%re and the s+read o( all these 'ainly
to 1orth A'erica)& has seen it s%((icient to consider its two or three 'a*or lang%ages so %niversal as not to care
to learn other lang%ages well& i( at all) 0ven Orientalis'& as an acade'ic disci+line& has not been s%ccess(%l in
+rod%cing s%stained co''and o( Isla'ic lang%ages& des+ite the (act that it did +rod%ce individ%als whose
ling%istic co'+etence even in 'ore than one Isla'ic lang%age was no less than 'aster(%l) It re'ains the case
however that those who can navigate an Isla'ic lang%age or te-t are a 'inisc%le/in (act insigni(icant/'inority
in Western societies)
2%t there is a larger sense to Orientalis' involved here) In 'any ways& the (ield o( Orientalis' is s%rro%nded by
an o%ter& i''ensely e-tensive layer3 that is& co%ntless n%'bers o( in(l%ential voices who really never bothered to
do any o( the hard intellect%al and +hilological wor, on Isla'3 yet& they (eel q%ite *%sti(ied and con(ident to
+rono%nce on the 4Orient&5 both within the classroo's o( acade'ia or as so.called 4e-+erts5 in 'ass 'edia) $his
4+eri+heral5 Orientalis' %s%ally esca+es o%r co''on de(initions o( that disci+line& b%t it (or's the b%l, o(
co''on and +o+%lar Western ,nowledge abo%t the rest o( the world& es+ecially Isla') In any case& this is
ro%ghly the ling%istic obstacle)
HA: Would you say that this is a te!hni!al obsta!le# one of logisti!s and of o"er!oing linguisti!)
%edagogi!al "enues of transitting ideas,
WH: It 'ay begin as a technical iss%e o( co%rse& b%t in reality it is '%ch 'ore than that) Accessing another
c%lt%re thro%gh lang%age is a choice& which Western +owers and their intellect%al elites e((ectively e-ercised at
one +oint in the service o( their colonial ca%ses) Here& accessing the Isla'ic lang%ages did not constit%te a 'a*or
di((ic%lty& '%ch less a technical one) 6olonialis' req%ired the +rod%ction o( classical orientalis'& (or witho%t the
(or'er the latter wo%ld not have co'e into e-istence in the way and sha+e it has (inally acq%ired and contin%es
to develo+) In the sa'e vein& (ail%re to access a lang%age is (%nda'entally a s%bstantive 'atter& not strictly a
technical one) 7or e-a'+le& 'y decision to write in 0nglish and not Indian or 6hinese8i( that is my decision at
all8is a co'+le- s%bstantive 'atter that ties in directly to the relationshi+ between +ower and ,nowledge&
between 'y bac,gro%nd as a coloni9ed s%b*ect and the 'a,ers o( that colonial history) And there is nothing
'ore telling abo%t the s%bstantive co'+le-ity o( the iss%e o( lang%age than the Western %niversity +ro(essor who
re+rod%ces 4Isla'5 witho%t (eeling the need to %nderstand 4it5 thro%gh a close te-t%al& sociological& or8a'ong
others8anthro+ological st%dy o( that +heno'enon) And all o( these acade'ic endeavors& to be gen%inely
engaged& req%ire a decent co''and o( one or another Isla'ic lang%age& even s+ea,ing and living it) $his
+ro(essor:s choice not to bother with any o( these req%ire'ents (which see' to be ta,en (or granted in nearly any
other conte-t) is a 'atter to do with the constit%tion and str%ct%re o( +ower& not with 'ere +ersonal inco'+etence
to 'aster a lang%age)
HA: What would be another !entral obsta!le,
WH: Another very i'+ortant obstacle to note is that& with rare e-ce+tions& M%sli' thin,ers begin with
(%nda'entally di((erent +re'ises (ro' those that Western writers start (ro'& however '%ch they conscio%sly or
%nconscio%sly e'%late Western tho%ght and +hiloso+hical writing) 0ven the 4%tilitarianists5 or 4q%asi.
%tilitarianists5 o( the late nineteenth and early twentieth cent%ry8the li,es o( M%ha''ad Abd%h and es+ecially
;ashid ;ida8tho%ght in a (ra'ewor, that ass%'ed as a starting +oint two things: (a) a religio%s conte-t (ro'
which they can tal,& and which de(ines the li'its& i( not conto%rs& o( their narratives& and (b) a historical conte-t or&
'ore +recisely& a s%bstantive (ra'e o( history that contin%es to be a so%rce o( a%thority (or legiti'ating (or's o(
'odern li(e) And when I say 4history5 or 4historical5 here& I 'ean a (airly co''itted historical engage'ent that
calls %+on 'any bygone cent%ries as a so%rce o( ,nowledge and g%idance& trying to retrieve (ro' this history& or
thro%gh it& an inter+retation that conforms to living in the 'odern world (this o( co%rse entailed considerable
+roble's that I ho+e I can address later)) Or& one co%ld +%t it di((erently and say that little in the way o( engaging
with the 'odern co%ld be acco'+lished witho%t bringing that history and those religio%s te-ts to bear on a
+artic%lar8very +artic%lar8inter+retation& na'ely& that which is s+eci(ically 'odern) And these
two interconnected co''it'ents8the religio%s one in +artic%lar8stood and contin%e to stand in violation o( a
sacred +rinci+le in the 'odern Western intellect%al 'ilie% (and I %se 4sacred5 advisedly)) $o be ta,en serio%sly in
this intellect%al 'ilie% o( o%rs today& yo% cannot +res%++ose8as yo%r (o%nding +re'ise8a traditional 'eta+hysic&
however intellect%ally so+histicated it 'ay be& and no 'atter the e-tent to which it endorses liberal doctrines and
+ractices (i( any& this will involve yo% in co'+o%nded +roble's)) And even i( yo% atte'+t so '%ch (as so'e
s%rely have done)& yo%r arg%'ent wo%ld have no hearing %nless it is serio%sly s%b*ected to the disc%rsive ter's
o( a 4sec%lar.rationalist5 narrative) $he nat%ral law de(enders in today:s West are an e-cellent case in +oint& b%t
this +artic%lar lot (aces relatively (ewer and less s%bstantial obstacles than their M%sli' co%nter+arts)
<econd& the 0nlighten'ent conce+t o( history (one with which we contin%e to live today)& tho%gh itsel( still dee+ly
historical& +arado-ically denies certain as+ects o( history) 7or e-a'+le& there is a contradiction within the
Western theory o( +rogress itsel(8o( invo,ing a +artic%lar brand o( history while si'%ltaneo%sly +itting itsel(
against& i( not %nder'ining& what we call today traditional history (which the 0nlighten'ent and its +rogress
theory created in the (irst +lace=)) <o history has always been a +roble'atic iss%e in a 'odernity that insists on
the +aradig'atic ado+tion o( a theory o( +rogress) $he M%sli' intellect%al elite& on the other hand& has only
recently beg%n to relate to the dee+er signi(ications o( this worldview& which8in the +artic%lar way it has been
done8is not& in 'y o+inion& a welco'e ste+) $he conce+t o( +rogress itsel( is a dee+ly +roble'atic one& and
M%sli' intellect%als and historians ali,e have not been able so (ar to dissect its inner ideological str%ct%res) And
we can see the e((ects o( this (ail%re in at least one i'+ortant s+here) >%ring the +ast two or three decades& a
new trend has e'erged in the M%sli' world that tends to conde'n Isla'ic history as 4dar, and ab%sive&5
re+licating al'ost e-actly the 0%ro+ean narrative o( conde'ning the violations o( the 6atholic 6h%rch and
'onarchical absol%tis') $he trend (al'ost entirely ignorant o( its own intellect%al heritage and history) began to
show (aint signs early on in the twentieth cent%ry& b%t it did not gain 'o'ent%' %ntil 'ore than hal( a cent%ry
later) ?i,e '%ch o( liberal val%es and doctrines& with which the theory o( +rogress organically coalesced& it too,
so'e ti'e to internali9e the' into what has beco'e a 4native disco%rse)5 Altho%gh the historical worlds o(
diverse and '%lti(aceted Isla' and 0%ro+e co%ld not have been 'ore di((erent& 4Isla'ic history5 is grad%ally
beginning to loo, li,e the 0%ro+ean dar, ages) As histories o( o++ression and o( +olitical and 4legal5 ab%se& they&
%ns%r+risingly& e'erge as a near identity) Perha+s a little later I will e-+lain how this +lays o%t regarding the
s%b*ect o( o%r concern)
1onetheless& the insistence on historical and religio%s narratives as constit%ting a legiti'i9ed and legiti'i9ing
tradition re'ains the (%nda'ental (eat%re that contin%es to se+arate and +it a+art the Western.0nlighten'ent
thin,ers (ro' their M%sli' co%nter+arts (not to 'ention the notorio%s e+iste'ic& +olitical& and ideological
di((ic%lties to which this (eat%re has given rise)) $he (or'er declare (+erceived) abstracted 4reason5 as the tool o(
h%'an g%idance +ar e-cellence& whereas the latter& even the 'ost liberal a'ongst the'& invo,e that historico.
religio%s narrative at nearly every t%rn& even when they conde'n it) @%st consider the li,es o( M%ha''ad
Ar,o%n& M) Abed al.@abiri& Ali Harb& Hasan Hana(i& M%ha''ad <hahr%r& even the 6hristian Aeorge $arabishi&
and n%'ero%s others (ro' the Iranian& Malayan& and <%b.6ontinental Indian worlds (these and their il, who (or'
'ost o( the category I re(er to as M%sli' intellect%als)) At the end o( the day& they are %nable to do witho%t the
B%ran& to say the least) Which is also to say that these writers can never a++eal to a sec%lar& radically non.
scri+t%ralist tradition as that o( 'ainstrea' 0nlighten'entCWestern tho%ght)
HA: &t sees to e# +udging fro soe of your le!tures# that what you said about s!ri%tural foundations
is erely the ti% of the i!eberg. Would you !are to dwell a little ore on this thee,
WH: O( co%rse) I sho%ld also note that the disc%rsive 'anner in which 'odern M%sli' thin,ers artic%lated and
contin%e to artic%late the'selves is not li,ely to attract the attention8and th%s engage'ent8o( either Western
acade'ia or Western tho%ght at large) ?et 'e e-+lain why) ;o%ghly (very ro%ghly) s+ea,ing& there are two
ca'+s or trends within 'odern Isla'ic and Isla'ist tho%ght ((or 'y s+eci(ic +%r+oses here& 4Isla'ic5 and
4Isla'ist5 are not very disting%ishable (ro' each other)) One is a great 'a*ority that has been (or too long bidding
(or a losing vent%re& both internally and e-ternally3 na'ely& the vent%re o( rationali9ing Isla' (in nearly all o( its
as+ects) in ter's o( liberal +hiloso+hy and liberal categories o( tho%ght) A dee+ %nderstanding o( this +ro*ect will
reveal 'a*or reasons (or its inel%ctable (ail%re& b%t this is not 'y concern today) Instead& I want to stress that as a
syste' o( tho%ght and +ractice& liberalis' has yet to be digested by the leading intellect%als o( the M%sli' world8
notable rare e-ce+tions notwithstanding)
$his (ail%re to %nderstand is in (act a do%ble one: M%sli' intellect%als have yet to %nderstand and a++reciate the
trenchant8and at ti'es radical8critiq%e o( liberalis' (ro' within the 0%ro.A'erican tradition itsel(& whether liberal
or not) (And here as elsewhere& 40%ro.A'erican5 incl%des the A%stralian& a'ong other +laces& as these have
also 'ade so'e signi(icant contrib%tions in this regard))
$he other trend or ca'+ in 'odern Isla'ic tho%ght is a thin one& and is e'erging slowly b%t ho+e(%lly steadily
and s%rely) $his is the Isla'ic critical school s+earheaded by the Moroccan lang%age& logic& and 'oral
+hiloso+her $aha Abd%rrah'an& who has not s%cc%'bed to the 0nlighten'ent 'odes o( tho%ght) His critical.
constr%ctive a++roach signals a +ro'ising innovating beginning (ro' which a new +ath o( thin,ing and re.
artic%lation can begin)
1ow& 'y +oint is this: neither ca'+ is li,ely in the short ter' to attract the attention o( Western thin,ers +artly
beca%se the 4M%sli' liberals5 (who are the overwhel'ing 'a*ority) wo%ld be dee'ed by their Western
co%nter+arts as second& i( not third.rate& intellect%als& and e'%lators o( sorts) $here is nothing in the tho%ght and
+ractice o( these M%sli' liberals that is o( val%e to the vigoro%s debate abo%t liberalis' raging in the West
(however +roble'atic and sel(.absorbed it 'ay be)) I( anything& their collective +osition e((ectively re+resents an
endorse'ent o( liberal clai's and val%es& a (act that has the %navoidable e((ect o(& (irst& strengthening these
clai's and rendering the' resilient in the (ace o( criticis'& and second& o( bestowing *%sti(ication %+on liberal
states to contin%e to 'olest Isla'ic co%ntries witho%t re'orse) 7%rther'ore& the (ate o( these e'%lators will
inevitably rese'ble the disdain with which the +re.'odern M%sli' mujtahids and q%asi.mujtahids regarded
the muqallidun) And in this& no one sho%ld bla'e the Western thin,ers) As a 'atter o( legal.'oral
+ractice& taqlid 'ay have been val%able i( not necessary& b%t in the do'ain o( critical tho%ght and analysis& it can
never gain any res+ect) A muqallid is si'+ly so'eone who has nothing to say& however '%ch babble he or she
'ay %tter)
And the (ate o( the second ca'+ will not (are any better& at least in the short or (oreseeable r%n) However& I sta,e
'%ch on the attractiveness o( this ca'+ in the long r%n& beca%se I see it as one e-+ression o( a +ro'ising
change) I (ind the o++ositions between the general +ath o( Western intelligentsia and s%ch a++roaches as that o(
Abd%rrah'an to be too great (altho%gh in the case o( this +hiloso+her& one '%st (ind it signi(icant that he arrived
at his syste' o( tho%ght a(ter having digested '%ch o( the 0%ro+ean +hiloso+hical tradition)) <o even i(
'ainstrea' Western tho%ght were to notice or access the wor,s o( the Moroccan +hiloso+her and his li,es& I a'
not s%re it will ,now what to do with the') ?ang%age barriers or not& the challenges that this ca'+ +%ts (orth are
(or'idable by any standard) Perha+s they will be relegated to the shel( o( c%rio%s 4Oriental5 ob*ects& as has been
done with so '%ch o( Isla'ic +heno'ena) Abd%rrah'an:s dee+ 'oral challenge is si'+ly indigestible by the
c%rrent Western 'ainstrea')
HA: -his sounds li'e a deadlo!'. Where do we go fro here,
WH: <o (ar& it has been a deadloc,& b%t only in the sense that the two ca'+s have not yet 'et) $he engage'ent
is yet to ta,e +lace& and then we can see i( a real deadloc, will ta,e +lace) 2%t so (ar& not even a beginning o( an
e-change is ta,ing +laces) I do not see a Michael <andel& an Alasdair MacIntyre& a 6harles $aylor& or anyone o(
their caliber or leanings dialoging with& say& $aha Abd%rrah'an or anyone else (or that 'atter) Most +robably&
these +hiloso+hers have never heard o( hi'& and (ran,ly& I do%bt that even the li,es o( $aylor will e'erge o%t o(
their i''ediate intellect%al worlds and interests to +%t (orward s%ch an e((ort) And i( s%ch a gro%+ o( +hiloso+hers
is not li,ely to engage in a dialog%e& then there is little ho+e o( others *oining) InThe Impossible State I tried to
(ra'e so'e o( the q%estions the M%sli' world is dealing with in a way that is8I ho+e8digestible to the Western
intellect%al) And I called8at the end o( the boo,8on M%sli' intellect%als also to try to co'e at least one ste+
(orward with a view to (or'%lating their iss%es in ways that a Western a%dience& or Western intellect%als& can
relate to)
2%t this in itsel( is certainly not eno%gh) As I said earlier& there '%st be a q%alitatively di((erent and critical body o(
tho%ght& +%lling behind it eno%gh weight to 'a,e Western intellect%als listen) $he challenge is st%+endo%s) We
acade'icians and intellect%als do everything we can to ennoble the i'age o( ,nowledge as a s%bli'e +%rs%it&
b%t this is one o( the biggest 'odern 'yths we live) I %nderstand and acce+t the veracity o( this i'age in a
conte-t in which ,nowledge was +%rs%ed (or 'oral ends& that is& (or +ractical ethics& the way& (or e-a'+le&
Aha9alian or Aq%inian ethics was constr%cted and constr%ed in its own environ'ent) 2%t the trans(or'ations in
the 'odern world& and the %n+recedented co'+licity between ,nowledge and +ower (which t%rns o%t at the end
to be the +ower o( the <ch'ittian political) 'a,e this the 'yth that I see) I( +olitics is war by other 'eans& and
%ndo%btedly it is& then ,nowledge8incl%ding acade'ia8is +olitics.c%'.war by other 'eans) $he a++earance o(
,nowledge:s (or' as the b%siness o( so(t.handed +ro(essors and bearded older scholars& with eager st%dents
who are on a 4q%est to ,now&5 sho%ld never 'as, or change this sober reality) In (act& it is one o( the greatest
'odern dece+tions) M%sli' intellect%als and an in(inite n%'ber o( 'any others have yet to digest the +ower o(
this +hysically cr%shing 'eta+hor)