==========EPISODE 1=============

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[Man] Here they come.
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Up the road.
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After 18 years.
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- [Man] How you doing?
- Oh, hello.
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- [Man] How are you?
- I'm pretty good.
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- [Man] How's it feel?
- It feels wonderful.
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Oh, god! Stevie, you're home!
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[Steven on phone]
I was happy when I got out.
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I probably was the happiest man
on the earth.
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We knew he was innocent.
We knew he was innocent.
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[Man] Law enforcement
despised Steven Avery.
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Steven Avery was a shining example
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of their inadequacies, their misconduct.
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No one ever intended
to do anybody any harm by this.
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We firmly believed that we had
the guilty party at the time.
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[Woman] Welcome home!
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[Woman] This was one of the biggest
miscarriages of justice I ever saw
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in 20 years in criminal defense work
and thousands of cases.
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[Woman 2] It was like
the same old Steve was back.
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I missed you.
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[Woman 2] He was happy. He was smiling.
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But I did tell him, "be careful."
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There was just something I felt.
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I said, "manitowoc county's
not done with you.
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They are not even close
to being finished with you."
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=============
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[man] We filed Steven Avery's lawsuit
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about a year after
the DNA had come through,
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indicating that he
had not committed the crime.
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- Good morning.
- [Woman] You got a new hairdo.
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- A little bit. [Laughs]
- [Woman] I didn't recognize you.
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The defendants are manitowoc county,
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Thomas kocourek, who was the sheriff
at the time in 1985,
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and denis Vogel,
the district attorney of manitowoc county,
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again at the time in 1985.
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There is a distinction in the law
between simple mistakes
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for which officers like that are immune,
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and purposeful conduct
that violates constitutional rights,
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for which they're not immune.
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Just a little bit more waiting.
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I waited long enough.
A little bit more ain't gonna bother me.
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[Kelly] We're seeking compensation
for the loss of his freedom
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and punitive damages for the reckless
or indifferent behavior of the defendants.
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That there's some justice around yet.
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Even though there's no guarantee
that Steven Avery will win this case,
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he says it's still worth
going through the trial,
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just to hold somebody accountable
for taking 18 years of his life.
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[Steven on phone] They had the evidence
back then that I didn't do it...
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But nobody said anything.
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I don't see what I really did wrong
to the sheriff
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for him to pick on me like that.
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The only thing I can think of is
I ran my cousin off the road.
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[Woman] We're on the record in the matter
of Avery v. Manitowoc county.
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Would you raise your right hand,
please, to be sworn in?
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Do you solemnly swear the testimony
you're about to give will be the truth,
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the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you god?
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Yes.
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[Kelly] Ma'am, I'm gonna show you a report
about Steven Avery, indecent exposure.
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It indicates that there was
a complaint received
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September 20th, 1984.
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It says that "he has been known
to masturbate on the hood of the car
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as she's driving past." Do you see that?
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- Yes.
- Did you tell that to the police?
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Um...
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I didn't put it in that many words.
I didn't...
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He didn't masturbate
on the hood of my car,
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but he did come out in front of my car
and he was...
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Doing his thing.
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This is why you're driving
40 miles an hour by his house?
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He did... he did run out towards the road.
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He was prepared. He had it all ready.
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Ok. It then says
"he has had sexual relations
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- with his wife out on the lawn..."
- that, I have nothing...
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Let me just finish the question.
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"While all the neighbors are home
in the daytime and able to watch."
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- That, I didn't say at all.
- Ok.
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Do you have any explanation
for why whoever is writing this
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might say that you said that?
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- I don't know.
- Ok.
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Was there a period where you
were spending time in a nearby tavern
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- and talking about Steven Avery?
- I might've.
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- I might've went to several taverns.
- [Kelly] All right...
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In 1985, were you personally friendly
with Steven Avery?
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No.
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In fact, you actively disliked him.
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- Is that right? At that time.
- Yes.
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Ok. And you weren't quiet about it.
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[Woman] The people that were close
to Steve knew he was harmless.
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He was always happy, happy, happy.
Always laughing.
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Always wanted to make other people laugh.
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I think the people in the outside
community viewed him as an Avery.
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You know, viewed him as troublemaker.
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You know, "there goes another Avery.
They're all trouble."
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[Woman] Manitowoc county
is working-class farmers.
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And the Avery family, they weren't that.
They dealt in junk.
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They had a salvage yard.
They lived on Avery road.
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I mean, they had their own road and stuff.
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They didn't dress like everybody else,
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they didn't have education
like other people,
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they weren't involved
in all the community activities.
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I don't think it ever crossed their mind
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that they should try
to fit into the community.
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They fit into the community
they had built, and that was enough.
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[Steven on phone] Growing up with all
them cars, you know, it was pretty fun.
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Tearing them apart, fixing them...
Running around in the trails,
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in the rows of the cars.
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Once, we had a car up there in the back
with the motor out and everything else
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and we had a bed back there
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and then we had a battery in it,
so we could listen to the radio,
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talk, goof around.
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You know, I had a nice childhood.
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[Man] The family sticks together.
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They have a very strong sense of family.
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They support each other. Um...
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They do a number of things
that are quite admirable.
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But they have also been in trouble
from time to time.
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Nothing like the problems
that Steven's been in.
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[Steven on phone] I really ain't got much
on my record.
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Two burglaries with my friends.
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We just rode around, get something to do.
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And we decided to rob a tavern and that...
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Was the first time that I got busted
with them friends.
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Another mistake I did...
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I had a bunch of friends over,
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and we were fooling around
with the cat...
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And, I don't know,
they were kind of negging it on and...
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I tossed him over the fire...
And he lit up.
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You know, it was the family cat.
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I was young and stupid
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and hanging around with the wrong people.
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[Ducat] Stevie did do
a lot of stupid things.
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But he always, always owned up
to everything he did wrong.
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He never said, "no it wasn't me."
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He said, "yeah, it was me. I did it."
And paid his fine, sat in jail,
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whatever it was and it was no big deal.
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He... let's get on with life then.
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[Steven on phone] She was pretty,
beautiful, that's what I thought.
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She had a good head on her shoulders.
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She was making it on her own.
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And she had Jason.
Jason was just a baby.
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And she told me that his father
didn't want nothing to do with him.
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So, I says, "I'll take over, then."
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Family's partway made.
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So I'm like,
"well, I might as well give it a shot."
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July 24, 1982, a judge married us.
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Then after that, her ma and dad threw a
little wedding party there in the garage.
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From there, the kids.
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Rachel was born. I didn't see her born
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because I was locked up
for that cat incident.
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It kinda sucked.
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You know, you're supposed to be
bringing your kid into the world...
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And then you gotta miss it.
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And then Jenny, I seen Jenny born.
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I think I had a... a good life.
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Till all the trouble started.
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Sandy Morris and bill Morris,
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they were always picking on Stevie,
more or less, you know.
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Saying stuff about Steve that...
That wasn't true.
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And Steve didn't like that, you know.
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But I told Steven, "leave it alone."
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[Kelly] In 1985, do you remember
the morning in January
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when you were forced off the road
by Steven?
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Yes.
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[Man] The interview
is being conducted January 3, 1985,
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00:12:37,834 --> 00:12:41,634
by detective Larry Conrad of the
manitowoc county sheriff's department.
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Steve, I'd like to ask you
if you would explain in your own words
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00:12:45,334 --> 00:12:47,434
exactly what happened.
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[Steven] It was 4:30, quarter to 5,
and I let the dog out
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and started up the cars
to warm them up and...
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I seen her come by
and then I went down the road
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and I just pulled alongside of her.
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And then we hit
and she went into a little skid.
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[Conrad]
Did she ever go down into the ditch?
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[Steven] No.
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00:13:06,701 --> 00:13:10,767
[Conrad] Ok, once she stopped her car,
what was the next thing you did?
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[Steven] I got out, and I grabbed a gun
and she asked me what I was doing.
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- [Conrad] Was your gun loaded?
- [Steven] No, it was empty.
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The shells were at home.
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[Conrad] And you know Sandy Morris
personally? Is she a relative of yours?
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[Steven] Yeah.
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00:13:27,667 --> 00:13:30,033
[Conrad] Steve,
can you tell me in your own words
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why you ran Sandy off the road
and pointed a gun at her?
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[Steven] Because she was spreading rumors
that I was on the front lawn
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and on the road, bare ass,
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and she was telling everybody about it
and it wasn't true.
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- [Conrad] Was this bothering you?
- [Steven] Yeah.
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[Conrad] Did you feel by taking the type
of action you did earlier today
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that this would stop the problem?
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[Steven] I was hoping, yeah.
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00:14:01,567 --> 00:14:03,934
Steven's actions
didn't get what he was hoping.
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00:14:03,934 --> 00:14:07,501
Sandy Morris happened to be married
to a manitowoc county sheriff's deputy.
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00:14:07,501 --> 00:14:11,701
And she immediately went to the sheriff's
department and filed a complaint...
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That minimized her involvement
in provoking the incident
194
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and maximized the alleged danger.
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I got his old records.
It was usually my practice
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00:14:26,067 --> 00:14:28,400
to get all the information
I could on the client.
197
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:33,133
Steven's school records showed
that he had barely functioned in school.
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And one of the things I remember
was that his IQ was 70.
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00:14:36,801 --> 00:14:42,667
Which gave me an idea of his coping skills
and why that action made sense to him.
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[Steven on phone] I didn't know
what to do, how to handle it.
201
00:14:50,901 --> 00:14:54,033
You know, 'cause it was putting
too much pressure on me.
202
00:14:54,033 --> 00:14:57,400
People would come up to me and say,
"you're doin' that? You're doin' that?"
203
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,100
No. Not in the middle of winter.
In the middle of the road?
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00:15:01,968 --> 00:15:03,868
It made me look like a...
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00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,968
Like I was a no good person.
206
00:15:09,934 --> 00:15:13,501
[Ducat] Why did she start that?
I have no idea.
207
00:15:13,501 --> 00:15:16,634
But I don't think it was very nice of her.
208
00:15:16,634 --> 00:15:19,767
Just 'cause you're married
to law enforcement
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00:15:19,767 --> 00:15:23,801
doesn't give you the right to...
To take somebody's name down like that.
210
00:15:23,801 --> 00:15:25,100
That was just wrong.
211
00:15:26,567 --> 00:15:28,334
[Evans] The sheriff's department
responded
212
00:15:28,334 --> 00:15:32,467
by really going after this case heavily.
213
00:15:32,467 --> 00:15:36,133
More heavily than I think they would've
if it was somebody else.
214
00:15:37,067 --> 00:15:41,367
I think Steven was a representative
in that case of the entire Avery family
215
00:15:41,367 --> 00:15:46,534
and how the sheriff's department saw them
as kind of a problem
216
00:15:46,534 --> 00:15:50,367
and definitely, uh, undesirable members
of the community,
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00:15:50,367 --> 00:15:51,801
for lack of a better term.
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And the Morris case gave them a chance
to claim a violent felony
219
00:15:56,734 --> 00:15:58,734
had been committed by one of the averys.
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00:15:58,734 --> 00:16:03,100
And of course... the sheriff's department
and the da took it and ran.
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00:16:14,634 --> 00:16:16,467
[Steven on phone]
I don't want to be a criminal.
222
00:16:17,734 --> 00:16:18,734
I want to be normal.
223
00:16:40,868 --> 00:16:44,567
After Lori had the twins,
he came over to my parents' house
224
00:16:44,567 --> 00:16:46,934
instead of taking poor Lori home.
[Chuckles]
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00:16:46,934 --> 00:16:49,467
You know, with them twin boys
and the girls.
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00:16:49,467 --> 00:16:51,934
He had to come over to my parents'
and show us, you know,
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00:16:51,934 --> 00:16:53,968
his happy, healthy baby boys.
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00:16:53,968 --> 00:16:56,968
Grin on his face from ear to ear,
I think, forever.
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00:16:56,968 --> 00:17:00,501
He probably still has a grin
when you talk about the boys.
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00:17:02,434 --> 00:17:06,567
He was over the moon.
He was just so proud.
231
00:17:06,567 --> 00:17:07,868
And he was proud of Lori.
232
00:17:07,868 --> 00:17:10,601
He was proud that she wanted him
233
00:17:10,601 --> 00:17:12,634
and married him
and all those kinds of things.
234
00:17:12,634 --> 00:17:16,067
He just thought his life was set.
Really, he did.
235
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,534
And that makes
what happened all the worse.
236
00:17:31,834 --> 00:17:34,467
[Man] July 29th, 1985.
237
00:17:34,467 --> 00:17:36,501
It was a warm, sunny day,
238
00:17:36,501 --> 00:17:40,934
and penny beerntsen and her husband
went to the beach on lake Michigan.
239
00:17:42,667 --> 00:17:44,501
About 3:00 that afternoon,
240
00:17:44,501 --> 00:17:47,667
penny started jogging north
along lake Michigan.
241
00:17:50,067 --> 00:17:55,367
She passed a person who was wearing
a black leather jacket.
242
00:17:55,367 --> 00:17:58,667
Now, it was summer
and it was 85 degrees probably.
243
00:17:58,667 --> 00:18:00,067
So it was an odd thing.
244
00:18:00,067 --> 00:18:04,968
And he said something to the effect of,
"it's a nice day for a jog, isn't it?"
245
00:18:06,734 --> 00:18:11,033
Penny was on her way back,
and she could see ahead of her
246
00:18:11,033 --> 00:18:15,000
that same man that she had passed earlier.
247
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,901
And he was directly in her path.
248
00:18:20,367 --> 00:18:24,267
To get away from him,
she ran into the water.
249
00:18:24,267 --> 00:18:28,133
But he grabbed her
and dragged her off into the woods.
250
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,067
He knocked her down.
251
00:18:33,067 --> 00:18:36,701
She was clawing at him,
and he attempted to rape her,
252
00:18:36,701 --> 00:18:39,834
but he didn't succeed in penetrating her.
253
00:18:41,033 --> 00:18:44,868
[Evans] He ripped her clothes off,
he sexually assaulted her,
254
00:18:44,868 --> 00:18:47,701
he beat her up
and basically left her for dead.
255
00:18:50,934 --> 00:18:52,567
It was just real horrific.
256
00:18:52,567 --> 00:18:55,601
The kind of injuries she had
to her upper body
257
00:18:55,601 --> 00:18:58,367
could only be done
if someone's basically in your face.
258
00:18:58,367 --> 00:18:59,801
So it was very personal.
259
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,968
After Mrs. beerntsen
was taken to the hospital,
260
00:19:11,968 --> 00:19:16,267
it turned out that
Sandra Morris' friend, Judy dvorak,
261
00:19:16,267 --> 00:19:19,968
was the deputy sheriff
who was assigned to go to the hospital,
262
00:19:19,968 --> 00:19:24,133
and this is where the Sandra Morris matter
makes a difference,
263
00:19:24,133 --> 00:19:27,901
because when penny beerntsen
describes her assailant,
264
00:19:27,901 --> 00:19:32,000
Judy dvorak says,
"that sounds like Steven Avery."
265
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,767
Judy dvorak lived across the road
from him at that time.
266
00:19:42,767 --> 00:19:47,901
And she definitely did not like Steven.
She had no use for him at all.
267
00:19:47,901 --> 00:19:52,934
And I think that boils down to the fact
that her and Sandy Morris were close,
268
00:19:52,934 --> 00:19:54,567
very close friends.
269
00:19:59,601 --> 00:20:02,501
[Kelly] You're the one
who prepared the incident report
270
00:20:02,501 --> 00:20:05,234
and asked Mrs. beerntsen
to read it and sign it.
271
00:20:05,234 --> 00:20:07,000
- Yes, sir.
- All right.
272
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,267
"Beerntsen told deputy dvorak
and the sheriff
273
00:20:10,267 --> 00:20:15,000
that she was unable to read the
statement because of her blurred vision.
274
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,634
Beerntsen was told
to sign the document anyhow."
275
00:20:18,634 --> 00:20:22,534
Did you tell Mrs. beerntsen
to sign the document anyhow?
276
00:20:22,534 --> 00:20:24,767
I do not remember ever saying that.
277
00:20:24,767 --> 00:20:29,200
Did sheriff kocourek tell Mrs. beerntsen
to sign the document anyhow?
278
00:20:30,901 --> 00:20:34,601
I have no recollection
of ever hearing that.
279
00:20:36,534 --> 00:20:39,200
[Arland] I was told by other detectives
that, at that point,
280
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,067
they've got a photograph of Stevie
from the old jail records.
281
00:20:44,067 --> 00:20:47,167
They brought it down,
and the chief deputy,
282
00:20:47,167 --> 00:20:51,734
Eugene kusche that time, made
a composite drawing of that photograph,
283
00:20:51,734 --> 00:20:54,868
rather than doing it from her memory.
284
00:20:54,868 --> 00:20:57,033
And then they showed that
to Mrs. beerntsen...
285
00:20:58,067 --> 00:20:59,968
Who said, "yeah, that's him."
286
00:20:59,968 --> 00:21:04,467
Then they took that jail photograph
and did a photo lineup.
287
00:21:04,467 --> 00:21:08,000
And Mrs. beerntsen
picked out that photograph.
288
00:21:09,501 --> 00:21:12,567
[Evans] I mean, if you look
at penny beerntsen's original description,
289
00:21:12,567 --> 00:21:16,801
as far as height, weight, eye color,
all kinds of stuff,
290
00:21:16,801 --> 00:21:18,534
Steven did not fit that description.
291
00:21:18,534 --> 00:21:20,834
Steven's hair didn't fit,
the build, everything.
292
00:21:20,834 --> 00:21:25,467
He didn't fit that description.
But Judy dvorak said he did. I mean, wow.
293
00:21:25,467 --> 00:21:28,601
So they show penny beerntsen
Steven's picture,
294
00:21:28,601 --> 00:21:30,968
and then she sees a lineup later
295
00:21:30,968 --> 00:21:33,400
and Steven is the only person
she's seen before.
296
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,100
Plus, she had the sheriff's deputy saying,
"gee, I think it sounds like this guy."
297
00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:39,400
That's pretty suggestive.
298
00:21:43,834 --> 00:21:49,901
[Kelly] Mr. kusche, I have one large
framed composite drawing,
299
00:21:49,901 --> 00:21:53,868
if we could bring that up on the table
and put it in camera range.
300
00:21:53,868 --> 00:21:54,934
Yes, sir.
301
00:21:55,801 --> 00:21:58,734
- [Kelly] Did you cause this to be framed?
- [Kusche] Yes, sir.
302
00:21:58,734 --> 00:22:01,334
[Kelly] Ok. Why'd you do that?
303
00:22:01,601 --> 00:22:04,400
[Kusche] It was my first composite.
304
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,734
It was the only one I ever did
that was used in a court case.
305
00:22:09,734 --> 00:22:12,901
And I thought it'd make
a interesting, uh...
306
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,300
Display in my office.
307
00:22:17,267 --> 00:22:20,801
Would you agree with me
that it's pretty remarkably coincidental
308
00:22:20,801 --> 00:22:25,067
that that would depict Steven Avery's
January 1985 mug photo,
309
00:22:25,067 --> 00:22:27,167
which was available to you that evening?
310
00:22:28,133 --> 00:22:30,667
One, the photo wasn't available to me.
311
00:22:31,601 --> 00:22:33,100
- No?
- No.
312
00:22:34,033 --> 00:22:35,133
It wasn't in the array?
313
00:22:36,968 --> 00:22:40,634
- After I drew the sketch, I saw it.
- Ok, so it was available to you.
314
00:22:40,634 --> 00:22:42,734
- No.
- It was around that evening,
315
00:22:42,734 --> 00:22:46,267
it had been brought over from the jail
to the hospital, right?
316
00:22:46,267 --> 00:22:48,567
- I don't know when it arrived.
- You're just saying...
317
00:22:48,567 --> 00:22:51,033
You're telling us under oath
you didn't look at it.
318
00:22:51,033 --> 00:22:53,601
I'm telling you I didn't see it
319
00:22:53,601 --> 00:22:56,701
and I didn't know if it was there
before I started the sketch either.
320
00:22:57,067 --> 00:23:01,300
My sketch is what
the victim had me draw...
321
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:03,067
- Right.
- As what she saw.
322
00:23:03,067 --> 00:23:05,934
We were able to present embarrassingly,
323
00:23:05,934 --> 00:23:10,133
the difference between an older photograph
and what we then had,
324
00:23:10,133 --> 00:23:15,467
which was the photograph from that night
as to how Steven Avery actually looked.
325
00:23:15,467 --> 00:23:19,501
That opened the door
to us being able to argue
326
00:23:19,501 --> 00:23:23,100
that kusche drew the composite
327
00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:27,000
from the photograph of Steven Avery
328
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,200
that was already in their files.
329
00:23:34,434 --> 00:23:36,200
And to argue that...
330
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,934
That never would've happened without
the sheriff's participation as well.
331
00:23:40,934 --> 00:23:47,100
In other words, they made the case against
Steven Avery that night themselves.
332
00:23:58,167 --> 00:24:02,200
[Steven on phone] The sheriff told me
"I got you now" when I got to jail.
333
00:24:03,634 --> 00:24:05,667
And the other cops couldn't do nothing.
334
00:24:05,667 --> 00:24:07,133
Nobody could do nothing.
335
00:24:08,267 --> 00:24:10,234
He had all the power.
336
00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:20,467
[Evans] The public defender's office
got a list every day
337
00:24:20,467 --> 00:24:23,033
of who had been arrested the night before.
338
00:24:23,033 --> 00:24:26,667
And that was so the public defender could
go in and make sure they had an attorney
339
00:24:26,667 --> 00:24:28,901
for their first appearance.
340
00:24:28,901 --> 00:24:31,968
But Steven's name wasn't on the list.
341
00:24:31,968 --> 00:24:34,200
And the only reason
I knew he was in jail...
342
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,734
And they knew I was his lawyer,
because manitowoc was a small town...
343
00:24:38,734 --> 00:24:43,234
Lori called me and told me he was in jail.
So I went over and asked to see him.
344
00:24:43,234 --> 00:24:46,934
And the deputy told me that the sheriff
had ordered that Steven's name
345
00:24:46,934 --> 00:24:50,667
not be on the jail list, that he
not be allowed any access to the phone,
346
00:24:50,667 --> 00:24:54,067
which is illegal,
that he not be allowed any visitors,
347
00:24:54,067 --> 00:24:56,167
and that he be held
in a cell block all by himself
348
00:24:56,167 --> 00:24:58,501
so he could have no contact with anybody.
349
00:24:58,501 --> 00:25:03,133
The sheriff didn't want him to be able
to talk to anybody, including a lawyer.
350
00:25:03,133 --> 00:25:07,133
And I never ever saw that before or since.
351
00:25:07,133 --> 00:25:10,033
I mean, he had a right to have a phone
call, he had a right to have an attorney.
352
00:25:10,033 --> 00:25:12,434
He had a right to be treated
just like anybody else.
353
00:25:15,667 --> 00:25:19,033
That penny beerntsen case was
just treated so differently from day one,
354
00:25:19,033 --> 00:25:22,934
and it had already started
with the whole Morris case.
355
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,934
[Male radio announcer] Morning news.
A maribel area man remains
356
00:25:27,934 --> 00:25:30,701
in the manitowoc county jail
without bail today
357
00:25:30,701 --> 00:25:33,033
in connection with the brutal beating
and the sexual assault
358
00:25:33,033 --> 00:25:36,133
of a manitowoc woman yesterday afternoon.
359
00:25:36,133 --> 00:25:38,501
23-year-old Steven Avery
was denied bail
360
00:25:38,501 --> 00:25:41,667
on a motion of manitowoc county
district attorney denis Vogel,
361
00:25:41,667 --> 00:25:43,534
who cited Avery's past record.
362
00:25:47,667 --> 00:25:50,467
[Man] This is not only
a violent sexual assault,
363
00:25:50,467 --> 00:25:55,601
it's a violent sexual assault of someone
who is a leader of the community.
364
00:25:55,601 --> 00:26:01,067
I mean, a shining example of what
manitowoc would like its citizens to be.
365
00:26:01,067 --> 00:26:05,200
The beerntsens owned commercial
enterprises that were popular
366
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,601
and occupied a central place in the town.
367
00:26:09,601 --> 00:26:12,467
Tom beerntsen was described
as being one of the best things
368
00:26:12,467 --> 00:26:15,501
to happen to manitowoc in the last decade.
369
00:26:15,501 --> 00:26:19,968
The beerntsens were clearly people
of substance in that community.
370
00:26:19,968 --> 00:26:24,200
When this happened, I think the sheriff
just wanted to get quick results
371
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,868
and get a suspect behind bars.
372
00:26:26,868 --> 00:26:30,901
It was the only time in 20 years
of criminal defense practice
373
00:26:30,901 --> 00:26:35,467
that I ever saw a sheriff
that involved in a case from day one.
374
00:26:37,167 --> 00:26:39,567
[Ducat] I was absolutely devastated.
375
00:26:39,567 --> 00:26:43,267
It's like,
why would they arrest Steve for that?
376
00:26:43,267 --> 00:26:45,534
That was so out of his character.
377
00:26:45,534 --> 00:26:49,167
People believed he did it, though,
because he was an Avery.
378
00:27:09,033 --> 00:27:11,701
[Man] Whatever I learned about the case,
379
00:27:11,701 --> 00:27:17,267
any of the notions
that I had personally, uh...
380
00:27:17,267 --> 00:27:19,601
Came from the police and the courts.
381
00:27:20,667 --> 00:27:24,133
Each morning you see if there's anything
going on in the sheriff's department.
382
00:27:24,133 --> 00:27:26,868
I knew Tom kocourek well.
383
00:27:26,868 --> 00:27:30,734
I knew district attorney denis Vogel
quite well because we visited with him
384
00:27:30,734 --> 00:27:34,734
on cases all the time.
He was kind of a part of our newsbeat.
385
00:27:34,734 --> 00:27:38,634
So Steven Avery was on that beat.
386
00:27:38,634 --> 00:27:42,801
We get acquainted with all
the regular names and he was one of them.
387
00:27:43,968 --> 00:27:47,968
When his name came up as the guy
that they were holding, it was...
388
00:27:47,968 --> 00:27:51,934
Oh, that would be within, you know,
that's in character.
389
00:27:53,367 --> 00:27:58,567
[Hazlewood] The event involving the deputy
sheriff's wife was still pending.
390
00:27:58,567 --> 00:28:01,901
And I think that was on everybody's mind.
391
00:28:03,167 --> 00:28:08,100
The case really turned on the fact
that violence was a real, recurring,
392
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:12,534
regular part of his life,
that women seemed to be the victims.
393
00:28:20,334 --> 00:28:24,234
There isn't one iota
of physical evidence in this case
394
00:28:24,234 --> 00:28:26,434
that connects Steven Avery to it.
395
00:28:26,434 --> 00:28:28,934
The sheriff was told by the police,
396
00:28:28,934 --> 00:28:30,634
"you have the wrong guy.
397
00:28:30,634 --> 00:28:33,167
You need to be aware
about this Gregory Allen."
398
00:28:35,968 --> 00:28:42,033
[Kelly] Gregory Allen, who had a long
criminal history for sexual crimes,
399
00:28:42,033 --> 00:28:47,801
for the use of violence,
was operating on an escalating basis
400
00:28:47,801 --> 00:28:49,767
in the manitowoc area.
401
00:28:49,767 --> 00:28:53,834
So much so that the city
of manitowoc police department
402
00:28:53,834 --> 00:28:58,968
was actually surveilling Gregory Allen
on a daily continuing basis.
403
00:28:58,968 --> 00:29:02,200
However, as fate would have it,
404
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,400
on the afternoon of July 29th,
405
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,734
the officers assigned
to do the surveillance
406
00:29:07,734 --> 00:29:11,467
were called to investigate other crimes.
407
00:29:11,467 --> 00:29:14,767
So at the very time
that Mrs. beerntsen was assaulted,
408
00:29:14,767 --> 00:29:17,567
Gregory Allen was not under surveillance.
409
00:29:17,567 --> 00:29:23,167
Needless to say, when the story
surfaced amongst the police communities,
410
00:29:23,167 --> 00:29:27,701
detective Thomas bergner
from the manitowoc city police department
411
00:29:27,701 --> 00:29:31,701
went to see the sheriff
and disclosed to him
412
00:29:31,701 --> 00:29:35,200
this information respecting Gregory Allen.
413
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,501
Essentially,
the sheriff told him not to bother,
414
00:29:39,501 --> 00:29:42,300
that they had their man, Steven Avery.
415
00:29:46,467 --> 00:29:51,167
Now, in our opinion,
that fact alone is bad enough.
416
00:29:51,167 --> 00:29:52,901
But more than that fact alone,
417
00:29:52,901 --> 00:29:56,467
three women
in the district attorney's office,
418
00:29:56,467 --> 00:29:58,834
based on their knowledge
of Gregory Allen,
419
00:29:58,834 --> 00:30:01,968
they thought that the police
had the wrong person,
420
00:30:01,968 --> 00:30:06,300
and they told their boss,
district attorney denis Vogel,
421
00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:11,634
"you've got the wrong guy. It's not
Steven Avery, it's Gregory Allen."
422
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,801
Tom kocourek told Stevie,
423
00:30:18,801 --> 00:30:22,167
"I don't care if you did this
or if you didn't do it.
424
00:30:22,167 --> 00:30:23,834
I'm gonna get you for it."
425
00:30:23,834 --> 00:30:27,267
Now, is that anything to say to anybody?
426
00:30:27,267 --> 00:30:29,367
And what did he do?
427
00:30:29,367 --> 00:30:32,133
That goddamn denis Vogel,
428
00:30:32,133 --> 00:30:35,167
and that son of a bitchin' hazlewood,
the judge...
429
00:30:35,167 --> 00:30:38,300
Steve had 22 witnesses at least.
430
00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:40,300
And there was one of them right there.
431
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:43,534
And every one of us
were called fabricators, liars.
432
00:30:45,901 --> 00:30:47,868
[Man] If the alibi witnesses
were believed,
433
00:30:47,868 --> 00:30:50,801
there would be no way to find him guilty.
434
00:30:50,801 --> 00:30:53,734
Steve Avery was accounted for
every minute,
435
00:30:53,734 --> 00:30:59,601
from about 1:30 that afternoon until,
um...
436
00:30:59,601 --> 00:31:01,801
You know, at least 5:00.
437
00:31:03,434 --> 00:31:07,367
The victim was sexually assaulted
at approximately 3:50.
438
00:31:08,467 --> 00:31:12,534
All of these alibi witnesses testified
that on the day of the assault,
439
00:31:12,534 --> 00:31:15,467
Steve Avery was helping his parents
and other family members
440
00:31:15,467 --> 00:31:18,601
pour concrete at the salvage yard.
441
00:31:18,601 --> 00:31:22,000
The cement truck arrived sometime
between 1:00 and 2:00.
442
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,501
Witnesses testified either
that they were out working with him,
443
00:31:25,501 --> 00:31:27,601
pouring the concrete,
or they were in the house
444
00:31:27,601 --> 00:31:30,434
watching divorce court
from 3:00 to 3:30
445
00:31:30,434 --> 00:31:33,634
and saw Steve Avery
immediately afterwards.
446
00:31:35,133 --> 00:31:39,000
Steve Avery then took his sister
in his four-by-four car
447
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,501
out to a local gravel pit.
448
00:31:41,501 --> 00:31:43,300
They got stuck out there,
they had to dig it out.
449
00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:46,267
They got back right around 4:00.
450
00:31:46,267 --> 00:31:50,334
At that point, Steve Avery
picked up his wife and his children.
451
00:31:50,334 --> 00:31:53,767
He had two very young babies that
had just been born a few days earlier.
452
00:31:53,767 --> 00:31:55,534
And then they went to green bay.
453
00:31:55,534 --> 00:31:57,567
It was about a 35 minute drive
to green bay.
454
00:31:57,567 --> 00:32:01,634
They washed the car, they got something
to eat, they went to the shopko store.
455
00:32:01,634 --> 00:32:06,067
Evidence was presented
of a receipt giving the time at 5:13,
456
00:32:06,067 --> 00:32:08,701
and when he came back
from green bay with his wife,
457
00:32:08,701 --> 00:32:11,701
he called his brother Earl
to have him come over
458
00:32:11,701 --> 00:32:14,100
and help do some drywall in his house.
459
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:16,467
And that they did that in the evening,
460
00:32:16,467 --> 00:32:18,501
finally going to bed,
461
00:32:18,501 --> 00:32:21,300
which is about the time
that the police then arrive.
462
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,567
[Beerntsen] When I kicked him, he said,
463
00:32:35,567 --> 00:32:38,067
"now you're gonna die,
now I'm gonna kill you."
464
00:32:40,467 --> 00:32:41,968
[Man] And what did he do then?
465
00:32:41,968 --> 00:32:47,067
[Beerntsen] Then he put his hands on my
neck, and he started choking me very hard.
466
00:32:47,934 --> 00:32:50,801
[Evans] Penny beerntsen
was everything that Steven wasn't.
467
00:32:51,868 --> 00:32:55,300
Smart, educated, well-to-do,
church-going lady,
468
00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:59,667
a business owner,
involved in community affairs.
469
00:32:59,667 --> 00:33:02,868
So just think of the two of them,
side by side.
470
00:33:04,667 --> 00:33:07,567
[Hazlewood] Mrs. beerntsen,
she's a very good witness.
471
00:33:07,567 --> 00:33:09,033
She was very positive.
472
00:33:09,033 --> 00:33:13,367
She stated that she'd made a point
when the crime was being committed
473
00:33:13,367 --> 00:33:16,868
of remembering who it was
who was doing this to her.
474
00:33:16,868 --> 00:33:21,067
And, uh, that... that carried the day.
475
00:33:23,934 --> 00:33:27,501
[Man] Were you able to pick out anyone
in that live line-up?
476
00:33:27,501 --> 00:33:28,567
[Beerntsen] Yes, I was.
477
00:33:28,567 --> 00:33:31,534
[Man] And do you have an opinion as to
whether or not the person you picked out
478
00:33:31,534 --> 00:33:34,901
in the live line-up is the same
as the person you picked out today?
479
00:33:34,901 --> 00:33:37,734
- [Beerntsen] Yes, it is the same person.
- [Man] And are you positive of that?
480
00:33:37,734 --> 00:33:39,968
[Beerntsen] I am absolutely positive.
481
00:33:43,834 --> 00:33:46,100
[Allan] The whole thing was a nightmare.
482
00:33:47,634 --> 00:33:49,701
How do you think a man feels?
483
00:33:49,701 --> 00:33:53,601
You see your son sitting right there,
484
00:33:53,601 --> 00:33:58,033
and he's... and he's saying,
the tears are coming out of his eyes...
485
00:34:00,701 --> 00:34:03,067
[Sobbing] "I didn't do it." He said...
486
00:34:06,934 --> 00:34:09,901
"I'm innocent. I didn't do it."
487
00:34:11,934 --> 00:34:15,434
And you know he didn't do it.
You were with him, you know.
488
00:34:20,467 --> 00:34:22,334
It's hard to take.
489
00:34:52,634 --> 00:34:54,934
[Evans] In Wisconsin,
the way the parole system was set up
490
00:34:54,934 --> 00:34:58,300
is if you didn't admit your guilt,
you did not get paroled.
491
00:34:58,300 --> 00:35:01,367
And of course Steven didn't admit
his guilt because he wasn't guilty.
492
00:35:01,367 --> 00:35:04,400
So that meant he wasn't gonna get paroled.
493
00:35:05,834 --> 00:35:10,767
He watched people who actually
had murdered somebody walk out.
494
00:35:11,968 --> 00:35:13,667
And he sat there.
495
00:35:14,968 --> 00:35:17,267
[Steven on phone] If I did it,
I'll admit right away.
496
00:35:17,267 --> 00:35:19,801
I'll take the punishment,
I'll do the time.
497
00:35:19,801 --> 00:35:23,667
But I don't break
for something I didn't do.
498
00:35:23,667 --> 00:35:25,701
I'll stay strong.
499
00:35:27,801 --> 00:35:29,667
I'll never fail.
500
00:35:46,534 --> 00:35:51,868
Dolores would take the kids to see Stevie
about sometimes two or three times a week.
501
00:35:52,701 --> 00:35:55,667
To green bay and that,
you know, to see Steve.
502
00:35:55,667 --> 00:36:00,534
[Dolores] A lot of times I was by myself,
but I'd still go.
503
00:36:00,534 --> 00:36:02,467
Just to go see him.
504
00:36:05,367 --> 00:36:08,167
It was fox lake,
505
00:36:08,167 --> 00:36:10,667
green bay,
506
00:36:10,667 --> 00:36:14,400
- Tennessee and Stanley.
- [Allan] At the end there...
507
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,334
I used to go to all of them,
even if it was icy.
508
00:36:19,334 --> 00:36:21,567
I drove on clear ice.
509
00:36:23,834 --> 00:36:27,767
With Lori, I suppose it was
hard for her to watch the kids.
510
00:36:27,767 --> 00:36:31,133
That was a bunch of kids to watch.
511
00:36:31,133 --> 00:36:32,934
And she was alone.
512
00:36:35,167 --> 00:36:38,734
I don't know if she thought
he would ever get out or not.
513
00:36:40,634 --> 00:36:44,234
[Steven on phone] With me and my wife,
it was tough.
514
00:36:45,667 --> 00:36:47,267
We was fighting.
515
00:36:49,734 --> 00:36:51,667
She'd tell me she can't take it no more.
516
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,467
And she started with
she was gonna kill the kids,
517
00:36:55,467 --> 00:36:59,467
then commit suicide and everything else.
518
00:36:59,467 --> 00:37:04,467
A lot of back and forth,
a lot of hate and...
519
00:37:04,467 --> 00:37:06,667
I wrote some bad letters.
520
00:37:08,667 --> 00:37:13,000
It lasted about three years...
And then I told her to go for the divorce.
521
00:37:14,334 --> 00:37:16,801
You know, we just got where...
522
00:37:17,667 --> 00:37:20,667
We didn't care about each other
or nothing.
523
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:29,601
He loved Lori and he loved the kids.
But he ended up with nothing.
524
00:37:38,467 --> 00:37:43,467
[Steven on phone] When she took the kids
away from me then... I tried to stay busy,
525
00:37:43,467 --> 00:37:46,567
I kept my mind occupied.
526
00:37:46,567 --> 00:37:49,868
Like when I was in green bay,
I did auto body for nine years.
527
00:37:50,934 --> 00:37:56,367
All day, I got my mind working on cars
and paint and everything else.
528
00:37:58,100 --> 00:37:59,801
But then when that's all done,
529
00:37:59,801 --> 00:38:03,501
come back and take a shower
and then you sit in a room
530
00:38:03,501 --> 00:38:05,400
and listen to the bars.
531
00:38:09,667 --> 00:38:13,167
[Woman] His mother
and dad stuck by him the most.
532
00:38:13,167 --> 00:38:17,167
Mainly his mother. Mainly his mother.
533
00:38:17,167 --> 00:38:21,167
She stuck by him all those years
he was in prison.
534
00:38:21,167 --> 00:38:25,067
So did my brother. All the money they had,
it went towards getting him out of prison,
535
00:38:25,067 --> 00:38:27,133
saying he was innocent.
536
00:38:37,501 --> 00:38:43,767
Steven and his parents came to us,
I think at the stage that,
537
00:38:43,767 --> 00:38:47,634
you know, they decided
this was kind of their one last gasp.
538
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,734
[Glynn] The problem was that virtually
all the issues that would arise
539
00:38:58,734 --> 00:39:01,901
from the conviction itself
had already been litigated
540
00:39:01,901 --> 00:39:06,133
and had already been decided
adversely to Steven.
541
00:39:06,133 --> 00:39:08,868
It essentially came down
to a requirement
542
00:39:08,868 --> 00:39:10,968
that we come up with
some newly discovered evidence.
543
00:39:12,467 --> 00:39:18,000
Rob henak had to root around
in the manitowoc courthouse,
544
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,267
eventually having the clerks
help find boxes.
545
00:39:22,434 --> 00:39:26,400
And then going through the boxes
and finding samples of things.
546
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,400
[Henak] We noted that the sex crimes kit
had been completed
547
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,934
and that there were
the fingernail scrapings
548
00:39:33,934 --> 00:39:36,501
that had been collected at the time.
549
00:39:36,501 --> 00:39:39,901
[Glynn] The science of DNA at that stage
hadn't developed sufficiently.
550
00:39:39,901 --> 00:39:43,067
So nobody had really
ever done anything with them.
551
00:39:43,067 --> 00:39:47,567
[Henak] We had the fingernail scrapings
tested by lab corporation of America,
552
00:39:47,567 --> 00:39:52,267
and in 1995,
with the testing they're able to do,
553
00:39:52,267 --> 00:39:55,601
they're able to limit
all the population of the world
554
00:39:55,601 --> 00:39:59,868
into particular groups,
based on what are called alleles.
555
00:39:59,868 --> 00:40:01,100
Each of us has two alleles.
556
00:40:02,801 --> 00:40:07,300
Steve Avery and the victim
have the same alleles.
557
00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:12,367
However, they found three alleles
in the fingernail scrapings.
558
00:40:12,367 --> 00:40:15,934
Two of them that matched Steve Avery's
and the victim's,
559
00:40:15,934 --> 00:40:17,901
and one that didn't match either of them.
560
00:40:17,901 --> 00:40:23,067
Meaning there had to be DNA from a person
not Steve Avery under her fingernails.
561
00:40:25,701 --> 00:40:28,868
Our argument was that a jury
could look at this evidence
562
00:40:28,868 --> 00:40:31,868
and decide that it was most likely
the perpetrator.
563
00:40:31,868 --> 00:40:34,434
And when you look at all
the other evidence tied together,
564
00:40:34,434 --> 00:40:39,300
the alibi evidence, the fact that
the victim was wrong about the eye color,
565
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:43,634
the fact that the victim identified the
perpetrator as wearing white underwear
566
00:40:43,634 --> 00:40:45,901
when Steve Avery
didn't even own underwear,
567
00:40:45,901 --> 00:40:47,667
that those kind of things would create
568
00:40:47,667 --> 00:40:49,501
a reasonable probability
of a different result.
569
00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:56,901
In this instance, the DNA evidence...
570
00:40:58,767 --> 00:41:01,300
Requires that the court speculate.
571
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:05,033
Regardless of which side I look at
and which argument I hear.
572
00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:08,434
The court accepted the state's argument
573
00:41:08,434 --> 00:41:11,968
that since we couldn't
prove whose DNA it was,
574
00:41:11,968 --> 00:41:16,434
we couldn't discount the fact
that this could've been her husband's DNA,
575
00:41:16,434 --> 00:41:19,901
one of the medical personnel's DNA,
576
00:41:19,901 --> 00:41:23,701
the couple that found penny beerntsen
on the beach
577
00:41:23,701 --> 00:41:25,968
and comforted her and clothed her
578
00:41:25,968 --> 00:41:31,267
while they were waiting
for, uh, medical assistance. Um...
579
00:41:31,267 --> 00:41:34,868
And, I mean, in my mind,
and certainly in rob's mind,
580
00:41:34,868 --> 00:41:38,467
all of that was preposterous
because penny beerntsen had never said
581
00:41:38,467 --> 00:41:43,467
that she scraped any of those people
or had any reason to claw at them.
582
00:41:43,467 --> 00:41:46,734
Nonetheless, the court ruled against us.
583
00:41:46,734 --> 00:41:49,334
The court of appeals ruled against us.
584
00:41:49,334 --> 00:41:52,334
The Wisconsin supreme court
ruled against us.
585
00:41:52,334 --> 00:41:55,834
And if you ever want to read an opinion,
by the way,
586
00:41:55,834 --> 00:42:01,033
that will show you how strongly
this system is designed
587
00:42:01,033 --> 00:42:03,601
to perpetuate a conviction,
588
00:42:03,601 --> 00:42:08,400
as opposed to examine whether or not
somebody could in fact be innocent,
589
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,934
read the court of appeals decision
in Steven Avery's case.
590
00:42:11,934 --> 00:42:14,334
You would think that this
was the guiltiest person
591
00:42:14,334 --> 00:42:17,300
that had ever been uncovered
in a criminal case in Wisconsin.
592
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,601
It's now '96 or '97.
593
00:42:24,601 --> 00:42:29,767
You have exhausted
every legal proceeding that is...
594
00:42:29,767 --> 00:42:31,501
Remotely available to you.
595
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,601
You've now been in this system
for 12 years.
596
00:42:35,601 --> 00:42:39,801
You are a son who cares deeply
about his parents.
597
00:42:39,801 --> 00:42:44,567
And his parents are getting older and
older while he's sitting in this joint,
598
00:42:44,567 --> 00:42:47,834
who cares about his kids
who are getting older and older.
599
00:42:47,834 --> 00:42:52,367
The pressure of that on a person to...
600
00:42:53,334 --> 00:42:55,801
Wrongfully confess, if you will,
601
00:42:55,801 --> 00:42:59,601
and to say, "ok, look, um...
602
00:42:59,601 --> 00:43:04,334
I've... I've fought the good fight,
I've gone through all my appellate stuff,
603
00:43:04,334 --> 00:43:07,834
I'm not getting anywhere with it,
it's time to level with you guys.
604
00:43:07,834 --> 00:43:09,400
I really did this crime."
605
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:15,567
I mean, those pressures have gotta be
more intense than we can imagine.
606
00:43:16,367 --> 00:43:19,467
[Steven on phone] They always told me,
"if you admit to it, we'll let you out.
607
00:43:19,467 --> 00:43:23,767
Otherwise, you'll be here until your Mr."
you know?
608
00:43:24,667 --> 00:43:28,400
So I guess I'll be in here 'til my mr,
'cause I ain't gonna admit to it.
609
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:29,868
I'm not gonna lie.
610
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:49,834
Here's the court of appeals.
611
00:43:55,033 --> 00:43:57,033
Sentencing papers.
612
00:44:01,801 --> 00:44:07,667
This one must've been in... '98.
I sent transcripts out.
613
00:44:07,667 --> 00:44:11,334
A whole bunch of them.
I made ten copies.
614
00:44:11,334 --> 00:44:16,467
Sit in the living room
and done it on the copy machine.
615
00:44:16,467 --> 00:44:21,300
Then I put the pieces, each on the table
to make ten, you know, ten of them.
616
00:44:22,667 --> 00:44:24,968
It was nerve-racking.
617
00:44:25,667 --> 00:44:28,000
I think there's about
a thousand pages in 'em.
618
00:44:34,868 --> 00:44:36,901
This one went to New York.
619
00:44:39,367 --> 00:44:40,934
They went all over.
620
00:44:40,934 --> 00:44:45,300
Wherever 60 minutes is or 20/20 or...
621
00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:47,934
[Sighs] I can't remember
the other ones all.
622
00:44:48,934 --> 00:44:51,367
All them things that's on TV always.
623
00:44:51,367 --> 00:44:56,734
I thought they'd help Steven to get out
if they read all this here script stuff.
624
00:44:56,734 --> 00:45:00,501
Then all of a sudden
we got a lot of 'em back, though.
625
00:45:01,501 --> 00:45:05,400
They couldn't do it, they said,
or something like that.
626
00:45:09,701 --> 00:45:12,868
Yeah, I put a lot of hours in these boxes.
627
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,901
[Steven on phone] You learn to take
patience, because everything...
628
00:45:24,901 --> 00:45:26,467
It takes time.
629
00:45:27,868 --> 00:45:29,501
In prison, you gotta wait.
630
00:45:30,434 --> 00:45:32,434
Nothing happens just like that.
631
00:45:34,667 --> 00:45:37,834
Anyway, they couldn't take away
my love for my family and that.
632
00:45:41,901 --> 00:45:45,634
I never had bad hopes.
It was always good hopes.
633
00:46:02,033 --> 00:46:04,267
[Man] Both his trial lawyer
and his appellate lawyer said,
634
00:46:04,267 --> 00:46:07,501
"could you look at this guy's case,
at Steven Avery's case?
635
00:46:07,501 --> 00:46:10,167
We've been losing sleep
over this case for 15 years."
636
00:46:10,167 --> 00:46:14,467
We knew the technology had advanced,
so we asked for the testing again.
637
00:46:14,467 --> 00:46:16,701
The material was sent down
to the crime laboratory again,
638
00:46:16,701 --> 00:46:19,234
and what they found
was that there were 13 pubic hairs
639
00:46:19,234 --> 00:46:23,133
that had been collected during
the pubic hair combings of the victim.
640
00:46:23,133 --> 00:46:26,200
Eleven of those hairs had no root.
641
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,267
So they were down to two pubic hairs.
642
00:46:28,267 --> 00:46:33,067
One of those hairs was from a female,
probably penny beerntsen's own hair.
643
00:46:33,067 --> 00:46:37,534
The truth in this matter came down
to that one remaining pubic hair.
644
00:46:41,133 --> 00:46:45,767
They got a full profile. That profile
conclusively excluded Steven Avery.
645
00:46:45,767 --> 00:46:49,200
It could not have come from him.
Now we know that with certainty.
646
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,400
Whether that alone would've been enough
to grant him a new trial, I don't know.
647
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,701
But even more dramatically, they took
that profile from that pubic hair
648
00:46:57,701 --> 00:47:00,601
and they ran it through
the state crime laboratory data bank
649
00:47:00,601 --> 00:47:02,167
and they got a cold hit.
650
00:47:02,167 --> 00:47:05,100
That is to say, they matched it
to somebody in the data bank
651
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:09,067
who they didn't know was in there.
And that somebody was Gregory Allen.
652
00:47:28,234 --> 00:47:30,834
I feel free.
653
00:47:40,767 --> 00:47:43,167
[Steven on phone]
When I left the prison, the anger left.
654
00:47:44,133 --> 00:47:45,267
It was gone.
655
00:47:46,167 --> 00:47:48,200
It stayed there, behind them gates.
656
00:47:48,934 --> 00:47:50,868
It didn't come out with me.
657
00:47:53,934 --> 00:47:55,868
I was happy when I got out.
658
00:47:56,367 --> 00:47:58,601
I probably was the happiest
man on the earth.
659
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:11,968
- [Man] How you doing?
- Oh, hello.
660
00:48:11,968 --> 00:48:13,133
- [Man] How are you?
- I'm pretty good.
661
00:48:13,133 --> 00:48:15,434
- [Man] How's it feel?
- It feels wonderful.
662
00:48:16,167 --> 00:48:18,734
Oh, god! Oh, Stevie!
663
00:48:21,367 --> 00:48:24,601
- Let's get rid of this thing.
- [Laughs]
664
00:48:31,334 --> 00:48:33,834
I'm just glad they got the guy who did it.
665
00:48:34,334 --> 00:48:36,734
[Woman] Do you forgive the victim?
666
00:48:36,734 --> 00:48:39,033
It ain't at all her fault, you know.
667
00:48:39,033 --> 00:48:41,000
Honest mistake, you know.
668
00:48:41,701 --> 00:48:46,300
I mean, most the time,
I think the cops put it in her head more.
669
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:52,734
[Man] Who's this?
670
00:48:53,334 --> 00:48:57,067
- I don't know.
- [Laughter]
671
00:49:03,734 --> 00:49:09,267
[Kelly] The revelation hit the da's office
and the sheriff's office like a bomb.
672
00:49:10,267 --> 00:49:13,801
And as it began to unfold
what had happened,
673
00:49:13,801 --> 00:49:17,400
there was then a huge set
of repercussions
674
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,534
on a whole series of people
in those offices.
675
00:49:21,534 --> 00:49:24,868
[Glynn] The day of
or the day after Steven's release,
676
00:49:24,868 --> 00:49:27,334
law enforcement officers in manitowoc
677
00:49:27,334 --> 00:49:30,767
are writing memos to describe activity
678
00:49:30,767 --> 00:49:33,367
that had occurred
almost ten years earlier.
679
00:49:36,033 --> 00:49:38,467
They don't do that
unless they feel threatened.
680
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,234
When I called denis Vogel
to tell him the news
681
00:49:52,234 --> 00:49:55,767
that Steven Avery wasn't guilty
of assaulting penny beerntsen,
682
00:49:55,767 --> 00:50:00,868
I was expecting to hear some shock
or some surprise, like,
683
00:50:00,868 --> 00:50:06,601
"oh, my goodness. How did this happen?"
Or "I feel terrible about it" or...
684
00:50:06,601 --> 00:50:09,701
"Thank goodness the DNA proved it."
685
00:50:09,701 --> 00:50:12,501
But I didn't hear any of that
from Mr. Vogel.
686
00:50:12,501 --> 00:50:14,334
What I heard instead was a question,
687
00:50:14,334 --> 00:50:19,901
whether or not there was anything
on Gregory Allen in his file.
688
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,200
I couldn't believe it.
I mean, it showed me two things.
689
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:30,501
It showed me that he suspected
that Gregory Allen was the assailant.
690
00:50:30,501 --> 00:50:33,467
But it also showed me...
I didn't know how else to take it,
691
00:50:33,467 --> 00:50:37,234
other than that he was worried
about his exposure.
692
00:50:37,234 --> 00:50:40,601
That something about Gregory Allen
was in his file.
693
00:50:40,601 --> 00:50:45,033
I started leafing through denis Vogel's
file on Avery and I come across
694
00:50:45,033 --> 00:50:46,400
a criminal complaint.
695
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,400
"State of Wisconsin v. Gregory Allen"
in the Avery file,
696
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,534
which didn't make a lot of sense.
697
00:50:52,534 --> 00:50:55,501
It was a charge of lewd
and lascivious behavior.
698
00:50:55,501 --> 00:51:00,067
He had dropped his shorts, he exposed
himself and he lunged at this woman.
699
00:51:00,067 --> 00:51:04,534
And it was the same basic section
of the beach
700
00:51:04,534 --> 00:51:09,167
where penny beerntsen
was assaulted two... two years later.
701
00:51:09,167 --> 00:51:13,801
Um, and I looked at which prosecutor
had prosecuted Gregory Allen earlier,
702
00:51:13,801 --> 00:51:15,534
and it was denis Vogel.
703
00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:22,534
That was evidence
that at least made it possible
704
00:51:22,534 --> 00:51:26,067
that the da and the sheriff
705
00:51:26,067 --> 00:51:29,501
either knew or should have known
706
00:51:29,501 --> 00:51:32,367
that Steven Avery was not the assailant.
707
00:51:32,367 --> 00:51:34,801
And not only that,
708
00:51:34,801 --> 00:51:40,067
we believe there was the potential
that they knew, in fact,
709
00:51:40,067 --> 00:51:44,334
who the assailant was,
but continued with the prosecution.
710
00:51:46,501 --> 00:51:49,000
We needed for somebody else to look at it
711
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,033
and the logical office would
be the Attorney General's office.
712
00:51:54,567 --> 00:51:56,868
[Glynn] It's extraordinarily significant
713
00:51:56,868 --> 00:52:00,501
that a prosecutor
asks the Attorney General,
714
00:52:00,501 --> 00:52:06,133
the chief prosecutor of the state,
to investigate his own department
715
00:52:06,133 --> 00:52:10,267
and law enforcement in that community.
That doesn't happen.
716
00:52:16,801 --> 00:52:19,400
[Kelly] Would you tell us
what your occupation is, please?
717
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,634
I am a special agent with
the Wisconsin department of justice
718
00:52:23,634 --> 00:52:26,133
division of criminal investigation.
719
00:52:26,767 --> 00:52:30,167
What are your duties as a special agent?
720
00:52:30,167 --> 00:52:36,200
To investigate crimes
relating to misconduct in office.
721
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,267
And you were one of two DCI agents
722
00:52:39,267 --> 00:52:44,601
to work on an investigation
involving the prosecution in 1985
723
00:52:44,601 --> 00:52:47,267
- of Steven Avery, is that right?
- Yes.
724
00:52:47,267 --> 00:52:52,434
We wanted to interview everybody
we could identify as being involved
725
00:52:52,434 --> 00:52:56,634
in the investigation
or in the prosecution.
726
00:52:56,634 --> 00:53:00,701
[Glynn] Understand,
this is all happening in public view.
727
00:53:00,701 --> 00:53:05,634
The public knew an Attorney General's
investigation was underway.
728
00:53:05,634 --> 00:53:08,901
And there was a sense
729
00:53:08,901 --> 00:53:11,901
that law enforcement
may be vulnerable here,
730
00:53:11,901 --> 00:53:14,567
and probably feeling it, uh...
731
00:53:14,567 --> 00:53:20,501
Because god knows there
were numerous editorials, articles,
732
00:53:20,501 --> 00:53:24,434
all of which had the theme
of "how could this happen?"
733
00:53:28,734 --> 00:53:32,300
The stories of mine that broke some new
ground were the ones that documented
734
00:53:32,300 --> 00:53:34,968
how quickly Steven Avery was a suspect
735
00:53:34,968 --> 00:53:38,601
and then how Gregory Allen
was not considered.
736
00:53:38,601 --> 00:53:42,567
I went through a lot of police records
about Gregory Allen
737
00:53:42,567 --> 00:53:48,000
and kind of built a chronology
of his contacts with law enforcement.
738
00:54:02,767 --> 00:54:07,667
Police in manitowoc had followed him
for 13 straight days
739
00:54:07,667 --> 00:54:10,734
where they were making multiple checks
on him, as many as 14 times a day,
740
00:54:10,734 --> 00:54:15,601
because he had been implicated
in several sex-related crimes.
741
00:54:21,367 --> 00:54:26,467
After Steven Avery was already arrested,
had already been identified twice,
742
00:54:26,467 --> 00:54:29,467
the police department
contacted penny beerntsen.
743
00:54:29,467 --> 00:54:35,501
She was shocked and confused and contacted
the sheriff's department herself to ask,
744
00:54:35,501 --> 00:54:37,033
"what about this Gregory Allen?"
745
00:54:53,801 --> 00:54:57,968
This isn't just about
an innocent guy being locked up.
746
00:54:57,968 --> 00:55:02,901
It's about a dangerous rapist being out
on the streets doing what he wanted to do.
747
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:13,601
It was a hot end-of-June day in 1995,
748
00:55:13,601 --> 00:55:18,501
and I was laying on the couch
after I put my daughter to bed
749
00:55:18,501 --> 00:55:21,133
and had fallen asleep.
750
00:55:21,133 --> 00:55:27,234
It was roughly 4:00 in the morning.
Gregory Allen broke into my home.
751
00:55:27,234 --> 00:55:32,100
He had taken the towel, apparently,
I guess, off the clothesline,
752
00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:34,033
threw it over my head
753
00:55:34,033 --> 00:55:37,167
and then dragged me
from the living room to the bedroom.
754
00:55:37,167 --> 00:55:42,400
He pretty much forced himself
as far as oral sex.
755
00:55:43,834 --> 00:55:47,767
It felt like an eternity at the moment.
756
00:55:47,767 --> 00:55:52,634
I was afraid my daughter, the next
morning, would find me in a pool of blood.
757
00:55:57,167 --> 00:56:00,701
But... thank god it didn't...
758
00:56:00,701 --> 00:56:03,200
It... we're ok.
759
00:56:05,100 --> 00:56:08,367
The judge that I had
during sentencing said,
760
00:56:08,367 --> 00:56:10,667
"if I could put you away for life,
I would,
761
00:56:10,667 --> 00:56:15,167
but unfortunately I can only give you
the maximum," which was 60 years.
762
00:56:15,167 --> 00:56:21,300
And he was around 47 at the time
that this happened, so...
763
00:56:22,367 --> 00:56:28,200
I don't think he'll...
Be able to harm anyone ever again.
764
00:56:32,367 --> 00:56:36,367
[Kelly] Bergner went and talked
to kocourek about Gregory Allen, right?
765
00:56:36,367 --> 00:56:37,567
Correct.
766
00:56:37,567 --> 00:56:41,868
No report was prepared by kocourek
about the information
767
00:56:41,868 --> 00:56:43,868
that was brought to him
by bergner, is that right?
768
00:56:43,868 --> 00:56:44,634
[Strauss] That's correct.
769
00:56:44,634 --> 00:56:48,667
[Kelly] Kocourek tells you
that he did not think
770
00:56:48,667 --> 00:56:52,601
that the sheriff's department knew
who Gregory Allen was in 1985.
771
00:56:52,601 --> 00:56:53,434
[Strauss] Correct.
772
00:56:54,601 --> 00:56:58,767
That was inconsistent with Allen
having been booked into the jail
773
00:56:58,767 --> 00:57:03,000
- and photographed in 1984.
- Correct.
774
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:08,367
So if the sheriff had wanted
to see a photo of Allen in 1985,
775
00:57:08,367 --> 00:57:11,334
all he had to do was go
to his own jail and find it?
776
00:57:13,300 --> 00:57:14,667
Correct.
777
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:26,300
[Kelly] You and Deb tell the lawyers
that it appears
778
00:57:26,300 --> 00:57:30,934
that there was "no real investigation
done" by the sheriff's department,
779
00:57:30,934 --> 00:57:35,033
and "they had a suspect
and they were gonna make it work."
780
00:57:35,033 --> 00:57:39,567
And that what's a little troubling to you
is the lack of paperwork that's done
781
00:57:39,567 --> 00:57:42,033
- and so forth.
- Deb would've wrote that.
782
00:57:42,033 --> 00:57:44,467
Ok, but she's speaking for the two of you.
783
00:57:46,067 --> 00:57:48,467
[Laughs] Yes, I believe she was speaking
for the two of us.
784
00:57:48,467 --> 00:57:51,200
And was that your opinion at the time?
785
00:57:55,434 --> 00:57:57,968
Yeah, I think that
was our opinion at the time.
786
00:57:57,968 --> 00:58:01,934
In fact, it turned out
from all of your investigation
787
00:58:01,934 --> 00:58:03,868
that this one was handled differently.
788
00:58:06,100 --> 00:58:07,467
It appeared from this investigation
789
00:58:07,467 --> 00:58:11,968
that the sheriff was really involved
in this one, which wasn't the norm.
790
00:58:11,968 --> 00:58:14,434
"The sheriff told the da
not to screw this case up
791
00:58:14,434 --> 00:58:18,434
because the sheriff
wanted Avery convicted of this crime."
792
00:58:34,334 --> 00:58:37,200
The tables were turning entirely,
793
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,968
and the changes
were all in Steven's favor.
794
00:58:41,934 --> 00:58:44,934
We thought
what had happened to Steven Avery
795
00:58:44,934 --> 00:58:48,334
would have justified
the Attorney General's office
796
00:58:48,334 --> 00:58:52,200
into... uh, frankly,
into bringing criminal charges,
797
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:56,567
but certainly warranted
a pretty strong condemnation.
798
00:59:13,567 --> 00:59:15,634
[Female news reporter] State attorney
general peg lautenschlager
799
00:59:15,634 --> 00:59:18,534
says her department conducted
an exhaustive review
800
00:59:18,534 --> 00:59:20,467
of police and trial records
801
00:59:20,467 --> 00:59:24,534
and had interviews with the victim,
police, prosecutors, and defenders.
802
00:59:24,534 --> 00:59:25,601
Her conclusion?
803
00:59:25,601 --> 00:59:28,868
[Lautenschlager] We don't see that there
are any criminal actions
804
00:59:28,868 --> 00:59:31,033
against somebody or criminal missteps.
805
00:59:31,033 --> 00:59:33,501
There don't seem
to be any ethical violations.
806
00:59:37,367 --> 00:59:39,667
[Steven on phone] They said there
was no wrongdoing with them.
807
00:59:39,667 --> 00:59:42,801
Then I wouldn't have did 18 years
if they didn't do nothing wrong.
808
00:59:42,801 --> 00:59:44,667
They did everything wrong.
809
00:59:45,534 --> 00:59:48,834
[Female news reporter] The state's
15-page review concludes that, at worst,
810
00:59:48,834 --> 00:59:51,701
the sheriff's department
failed to investigate Allen,
811
00:59:51,701 --> 00:59:55,067
all little consolation to Avery.
812
00:59:55,067 --> 00:59:57,534
I was hoping they were gonna do something
to manitowoc county...
813
00:59:58,501 --> 01:00:01,300
And set them straight
so they don't do it again.
814
01:00:01,300 --> 01:00:04,067
When I saw the justice department report,
it was like,
815
01:00:04,067 --> 01:00:07,801
they kind of said, "well, yeah,
they did these things that were wrong.
816
01:00:07,801 --> 01:00:10,300
Oh, you know, but they kind of
had good intentions,"
817
01:00:10,300 --> 01:00:12,801
or some crap like that.
"So we don't really think
818
01:00:12,801 --> 01:00:16,767
anything further is justified."
It's like, what a crock of shit.
819
01:00:18,234 --> 01:00:23,534
People did a lot of wrong things,
and a man's life suffered.
820
01:00:24,501 --> 01:00:29,467
How can that not be... worth anything?
821
01:00:31,067 --> 01:00:35,167
I don't think Steven had any alternative
but to bring the lawsuit.
822
01:00:35,167 --> 01:00:39,501
There was never going to be
law enforcement recognition
823
01:00:39,501 --> 01:00:41,234
and acceptance of responsibility.
824
01:00:41,234 --> 01:00:45,467
There was never going to be
law enforcement held accountable.
825
01:00:45,467 --> 01:00:47,234
I just didn't think
that was going to happen,
826
01:00:47,234 --> 01:00:51,100
and it sure as hell wasn't gonna happen
after the ag's report.
827
01:00:51,100 --> 01:00:56,267
I mean, I'm... I'm amazed
that sitting in Milwaukee
828
01:00:56,267 --> 01:00:59,567
we couldn't hear the sigh of relief
coming out of manitowoc
829
01:00:59,567 --> 01:01:02,067
as soon as that ag's report came out.
830
01:01:02,067 --> 01:01:06,234
Sometimes it just makes me sick, just
hearing about it and what they all did.
831
01:01:10,601 --> 01:01:14,434
Everything they did wrong
should come back at 'em.
832
01:01:18,901 --> 01:01:22,434
They weren't just gonna let Stevie out.
833
01:01:22,434 --> 01:01:28,767
They weren't gonna
hand that man $36 million.
834
01:01:28,767 --> 01:01:31,868
They weren't gonna be made
a laughingstock, that's for sure.
835
01:01:31,868 --> 01:01:34,701
They just weren't gonna do all that.
836
01:01:34,701 --> 01:01:37,033
And something in my gut
said they're not done with him.
837
01:01:37,033 --> 01:01:38,534
Something's gonna happen.
838
01:01:38,534 --> 01:01:42,100
They're not handing that kind of money
over to Steve Avery.
839
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,467
[Glynn] We told him he could expect
people would say
840
01:01:46,467 --> 01:01:49,501
that this was just a get-rich effort.
841
01:01:49,501 --> 01:01:53,300
That family private matters
would now be public,
842
01:01:53,300 --> 01:01:56,000
and, you know, don't be too surprised
843
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,467
if people say some things about you
that you've never even heard before,
844
01:01:59,467 --> 01:02:00,601
that are just plain false.
845
01:02:03,501 --> 01:02:08,167
The one thing we didn't tell him
is that you have to be careful
846
01:02:08,167 --> 01:02:12,234
when you bring a lawsuit
against a sheriff's department
847
01:02:12,234 --> 01:02:14,534
in a community where you still live,
848
01:02:14,534 --> 01:02:18,634
because you could end up
getting charged with murder.
849
01:02:27,167 --> 01:02:29,167
[Officer]
Do we have a body or anything yet?
850
01:02:29,167 --> 01:02:31,667
[Female dispatcher] I don't believe so.
851
01:02:31,667 --> 01:02:35,167
[Officer] Do we have Steven Avery
in custody though?
852
01:02:35,682 --> 01:02:40,400
==========EPISODE 2=============
1
00:00:14,834 --> 00:00:17,601
[woman] Hello, this is Teresa
with<i> Auto Trader</i> magazine.
2
00:00:17,667 --> 00:00:21,001
I'm the photographer
and just giving a call to let you know
3
00:00:21,068 --> 00:00:24,467
that I could come out there today
um, in the afternoon.
4
00:00:24,534 --> 00:00:28,834
It would probably be around 2:00
or even a little later.
5
00:00:28,901 --> 00:00:31,267
Um... again, it's Teresa.
6
00:00:32,634 --> 00:00:35,934
If you could please give me a call back
and let me know if that'll work for you.
7
00:00:36,001 --> 00:00:37,233
Thank you.
8
00:01:04,667 --> 00:01:08,701
[Teresa] So let's say I die before I'm 31.
9
00:01:08,767 --> 00:01:11,434
Or let's say I die tomorrow.
10
00:01:11,500 --> 00:01:14,200
I don't think I will.
I think I have a lot more to do.
11
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,068
I just want to know, whenever I do die...
12
00:01:19,133 --> 00:01:22,634
I just want people I love to know
that whenever I die...
13
00:01:24,334 --> 00:01:27,068
that I was happy.
14
00:01:27,133 --> 00:01:29,667
That I was happy
with what I did with my life.
15
00:01:30,467 --> 00:01:33,100
- [theme music plays]
- [geese honking]
16
00:02:33,747 --> 00:02:38,747
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
17
00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:46,467
[male reporter] For 18 years, Steven Avery
was limited in everything he did,
18
00:02:46,534 --> 00:02:49,767
after being convicted for a crime
he didn't commit.
19
00:02:49,834 --> 00:02:53,634
Now state lawmakers want answers
as to why this happened to him.
20
00:02:53,701 --> 00:02:56,400
[female reporter] While in prison,
Avery's wife divorced him.
21
00:02:56,467 --> 00:03:00,233
Following his release,
he lived for a time in an ice shanty.
22
00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:03,901
[female reporter 2] Steven Avery
is now back home, but for 18 years
23
00:03:03,968 --> 00:03:07,701
he sat in prison
for a sexual assault he did not commit.
24
00:03:07,767 --> 00:03:10,701
Avery says he forgives the woman
for accusing him of the crime,
25
00:03:10,767 --> 00:03:14,001
but will never forgive
Manitowoc County law enforcement.
26
00:03:14,068 --> 00:03:17,734
"Guilty." That's all they think,
is the guy's guilty right away.
27
00:03:18,267 --> 00:03:19,767
So they should look into things more.
28
00:03:19,834 --> 00:03:25,300
Steven was becoming like a celebrity
in the criminal justice system.
29
00:03:25,367 --> 00:03:31,200
Politicians were posing
for photo ops with Steve Avery.
30
00:03:31,267 --> 00:03:35,567
Politicians from the governor
down to a state legislator,
31
00:03:35,634 --> 00:03:38,901
who would be a prime mover
on the Avery task force.
32
00:03:38,968 --> 00:03:43,133
An innocent man was taken from his home,
33
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,400
taken from his family,
accused of crimes he did not commit.
34
00:03:47,467 --> 00:03:50,367
It was rough, those 18 years.
35
00:03:51,734 --> 00:03:53,767
But I had to do it day by day.
36
00:03:54,334 --> 00:03:55,767
You know, to keep going.
37
00:03:55,834 --> 00:03:59,300
Something had to be looked at
to see how this happened
38
00:03:59,367 --> 00:04:04,068
and use that maybe as a catalyst to look
at more than just that case from 1985,
39
00:04:04,133 --> 00:04:06,167
but the whole system as a whole.
40
00:04:06,233 --> 00:04:10,200
What kind of reforms get us closer
to truth and justice in the system?
41
00:04:10,267 --> 00:04:12,534
I chair the judiciary committee,
42
00:04:12,601 --> 00:04:15,701
so I started to develop a task force
with an eye towards
43
00:04:15,767 --> 00:04:18,500
"how can we prevent this type of thing
from happening again?"
44
00:04:30,968 --> 00:04:33,834
My family stuck around
for a while, then...
45
00:04:34,701 --> 00:04:35,701
it was hard.
46
00:04:35,767 --> 00:04:38,133
So then I told the old lady to leave.
47
00:04:50,534 --> 00:04:52,367
That was the hardest part.
48
00:04:52,434 --> 00:04:54,867
Everyone on the assembly floor,
if I recall,
49
00:04:54,934 --> 00:04:57,367
stood up, gave him a standing ovation
50
00:04:57,434 --> 00:04:59,634
- for what he had had to go through...
- [applause]
51
00:04:59,701 --> 00:05:04,801
and their own kind of "I'm sorry for
what happened to you from the system."
52
00:05:04,867 --> 00:05:08,367
People on the task force,
people at the committee hearings,
53
00:05:08,434 --> 00:05:12,567
every one of them is sitting there
thinking, "What if that had been me?
54
00:05:13,601 --> 00:05:17,467
What if that was my children
that I didn't get to see or play ball with
55
00:05:17,534 --> 00:05:20,767
or read books to at night for 18 years?"
56
00:05:20,834 --> 00:05:23,367
[woman] Not a day goes by
that I don't think about Mr. Avery,
57
00:05:23,434 --> 00:05:27,367
his family and friends
and the suffering they endured...
58
00:05:27,434 --> 00:05:30,068
When it was time to leave, I said,
"Steve, could I give you a hug?"
59
00:05:30,133 --> 00:05:35,467
And he just grabbed me in a big bear hug
and I said to him, you know,
60
00:05:35,534 --> 00:05:38,200
"I'm very sorry, Steve. I'm so sorry."
61
00:05:38,267 --> 00:05:40,434
And he said, "It's OK. It's over."
62
00:05:55,068 --> 00:05:56,601
[Steven on phone]
<i>Everything was going good.</i>
63
00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:00,068
<i>I was working by the yard.</i>
64
00:06:02,901 --> 00:06:07,567
<i>I'm trying to do my best,
stay out of trouble and just live happy.</i>
65
00:06:17,434 --> 00:06:18,567
<i>The best thing?</i>
66
00:06:19,801 --> 00:06:21,667
<i>Probably when I met Jodi.</i>
67
00:06:25,434 --> 00:06:30,567
<i>Then I felt that I could be loved again
and I could love somebody again.</i>
68
00:06:31,734 --> 00:06:33,567
<i>And have a future again.</i>
69
00:06:39,233 --> 00:06:41,434
The clarity of this situation,
70
00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:45,834
there are lots of situations where people
don't talk about compensation or whatever
71
00:06:45,901 --> 00:06:48,901
'cause it's not clear
that they didn't do it.
72
00:06:48,968 --> 00:06:54,233
You just know that there's not enough
that you can keep 'em in prison.
73
00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:58,601
But this was so clear
and the circumstances so troubling,
74
00:06:58,667 --> 00:07:00,934
I think, to most people in the state.
75
00:07:01,001 --> 00:07:04,267
I wasn't familiar with the statute
on prisoner compensation
76
00:07:04,334 --> 00:07:06,167
for being wrongfully convicted.
77
00:07:06,233 --> 00:07:09,267
And they said,
"$5,000 a year, $25,000 cap,"
78
00:07:09,334 --> 00:07:11,300
and I just kind of scoffed and I said,
79
00:07:11,367 --> 00:07:15,901
"My goodness,
it should be $25,000 a year." Um...
80
00:07:15,968 --> 00:07:18,034
And that's where $450,000 came from.
81
00:07:23,867 --> 00:07:27,901
I went out to the yard many times
to see Steve.
82
00:07:27,968 --> 00:07:31,734
You know, see if he was all right
and adjusting and, um,
83
00:07:31,801 --> 00:07:34,534
you know, what's going on in his life
and things like that.
84
00:07:34,601 --> 00:07:38,200
And he says, "Right now,
I want to be by my parents,
85
00:07:38,267 --> 00:07:43,034
I want to work in the yard,
I want to try to... try to fit in."
86
00:07:45,867 --> 00:07:48,834
I think he felt that
when he got out of prison,
87
00:07:48,901 --> 00:07:54,701
if he would've left the state
or even ran up to Crivitz and hid out,
88
00:07:54,767 --> 00:07:59,634
I think he thought that Manitowoc County
was forcing him to do that.
89
00:07:59,701 --> 00:08:02,701
And he wasn't gonna let anybody
run him out of town.
90
00:08:02,767 --> 00:08:06,434
You know, he was gonna stay here
and try to get some of his life back.
91
00:08:07,367 --> 00:08:12,133
And I think he wanted Manitowoc County
to see that he was getting his life back.
92
00:08:32,167 --> 00:08:34,534
[male reporter] Steven Avery
spent 18 years in prison
93
00:08:34,601 --> 00:08:36,300
for something he didn't do.
94
00:08:36,367 --> 00:08:39,100
Today marks one year since Avery
went home free.
95
00:08:39,167 --> 00:08:41,934
His time spent out of prison
has been with his family.
96
00:08:42,001 --> 00:08:46,200
It feels real good. Yeah.
We can all be together again.
97
00:08:46,267 --> 00:08:50,200
[male reporter] He's never since spoken
with the people who put him behind bars.
98
00:08:50,267 --> 00:08:52,267
[male reporter] Is there
any way you can forgive them?
99
00:08:55,233 --> 00:08:56,267
I doubt it.
100
00:08:57,367 --> 00:08:58,400
They know they did wrong.
101
00:08:58,467 --> 00:09:01,867
[male reporter] He and his lawyers plan
to file a lawsuit seeking damages.
102
00:09:01,934 --> 00:09:05,001
Avery says money will help him
get back on his feet,
103
00:09:05,068 --> 00:09:07,167
but it can never make up for lost time.
104
00:09:12,167 --> 00:09:16,801
The lawsuit, from Steven's perspective,
and this is based on...
105
00:09:16,867 --> 00:09:19,500
what he said to Penny Beerntsen
106
00:09:19,567 --> 00:09:23,001
at the hearing
in front of the Avery Task Force,
107
00:09:23,068 --> 00:09:29,068
was really about, he didn't want what
happened to him to happen to anybody else.
108
00:09:29,133 --> 00:09:33,200
But he also didn't want what happened
to her to happen to anybody else.
109
00:09:33,267 --> 00:09:36,467
And it clearly had because
of what Gregory Allen did
110
00:09:36,534 --> 00:09:40,267
while Steven Avery was sitting in prison.
111
00:09:46,801 --> 00:09:51,467
[Kelly] The essence of the civil suit says
that the district attorney and the sheriff
112
00:09:51,534 --> 00:09:57,267
were obliged constitutionally to turn that
exculpatory evidence about Gregory Allen
113
00:09:57,334 --> 00:09:59,167
over to the defense.
114
00:09:59,233 --> 00:10:03,734
It's not a subtle, um... lawsuit,
115
00:10:03,801 --> 00:10:09,534
in that this is a gross
constitutional violation.
116
00:10:09,601 --> 00:10:15,068
We've alleged $36,000,000 in damages
or a million dollars per year
117
00:10:15,133 --> 00:10:16,867
for the years that he spent in prison,
118
00:10:16,934 --> 00:10:20,634
and then the other $18,000,000
for penalty damages
119
00:10:20,701 --> 00:10:23,601
or deterrents damages.
120
00:10:23,667 --> 00:10:27,601
From Steven's perspective,
it couldn't have had less to do
121
00:10:27,667 --> 00:10:29,434
with what the numbers were.
122
00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:33,634
It was entirely about,
let's identify who did what here.
123
00:10:33,701 --> 00:10:37,701
Let's make sure that they are held up
as examples to everybody else
124
00:10:37,767 --> 00:10:40,434
in law enforcement
as to what you do not do,
125
00:10:40,500 --> 00:10:43,834
and what the consequences are
when you do what you should not do.
126
00:10:44,667 --> 00:10:49,367
What we're really talking about
is accountability.
127
00:10:49,434 --> 00:10:52,100
Trying to prevent another family broken.
128
00:10:53,567 --> 00:10:55,100
So it don't happen again.
129
00:11:01,267 --> 00:11:04,634
[Kelly] When Mrs. Beerntsen gave
the description of her assailant
130
00:11:04,701 --> 00:11:09,367
at the hospital that night, did you say
that it sounded like Steven Avery?
131
00:11:09,434 --> 00:11:11,634
No, sir.
132
00:11:11,701 --> 00:11:14,734
Later on that evening,
you made that statement, is that right?
133
00:11:14,801 --> 00:11:17,901
- [man] Object to form.
- [Kelly] You may answer.
134
00:11:26,367 --> 00:11:31,200
I do not remember if it was that evening
or possibly at the Sheriff's Department.
135
00:11:32,133 --> 00:11:36,434
[Kelly] You made the statement that
the description sounded like Steven Avery,
136
00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:38,934
you just don't remember
whether you said it at the hospital
137
00:11:39,001 --> 00:11:41,667
or whether you said it
at the Sheriff's Department later on.
138
00:11:41,734 --> 00:11:43,167
- Is that...
- [man] I'm gonna object to that.
139
00:11:43,233 --> 00:11:46,068
- [Kelly] Is that correct?
- [man] Because that's not what she said.
140
00:11:46,133 --> 00:11:47,133
And I object to the form.
141
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,634
[Kelly] Why don't you guys all
just get sworn and testify here?
142
00:11:50,701 --> 00:11:53,133
- Let the witness answer.
- [man] I didn't...
143
00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:54,968
I'm not stopping
the witness from answering.
144
00:11:55,034 --> 00:11:56,500
[Kelly] You're trying
to tell her what to say.
145
00:11:56,567 --> 00:11:58,834
[man] When you said, "You said this,"
and she didn't say that,
146
00:11:58,901 --> 00:12:00,200
- I'm gonna object...
- [Kelly] Yes, she did.
147
00:12:00,267 --> 00:12:01,634
[man] ...to make sure
that the record is correct.
148
00:12:01,701 --> 00:12:04,968
[Kelly] For us, the attorney general's
report was a blessing
149
00:12:05,034 --> 00:12:08,601
in that at least some of the people
who were being questioned
150
00:12:08,667 --> 00:12:13,200
did not anticipate any
personal liability to themselves,
151
00:12:13,267 --> 00:12:16,968
felt like they were talking
law enforcement to law enforcement,
152
00:12:17,034 --> 00:12:19,701
and so were fairly candid.
153
00:12:19,767 --> 00:12:23,233
So that was very helpful to us
in terms of the discovery
154
00:12:23,300 --> 00:12:28,434
that we needed to conduct of those people
in the civil suit environment,
155
00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:31,200
by which time they
did know about civil liability,
156
00:12:31,267 --> 00:12:35,400
but we already had their remarks down
in investigatory reports.
157
00:12:35,467 --> 00:12:37,267
[Kelly] And then the statement says,
158
00:12:37,334 --> 00:12:40,334
"Dvorak described Avery
as such a dirty man
159
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,634
that every time he would come to the jail,
160
00:12:42,701 --> 00:12:46,200
the sheriff's deputies
would have to make Avery take a shower."
161
00:12:46,267 --> 00:12:47,734
- Do you see that?
- Yes, sir.
162
00:12:47,801 --> 00:12:50,068
Did you tell that to Ms. Strauss?
163
00:12:52,834 --> 00:12:55,133
Possibly, but not in those words.
164
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:56,634
In what words?
165
00:12:57,467 --> 00:13:00,068
- That he...
- Do you remember the words you told her?
166
00:13:00,133 --> 00:13:01,968
[man] I'm gonna object
to the form of the question.
167
00:13:02,034 --> 00:13:03,300
[Kelly] OK.
168
00:13:03,534 --> 00:13:05,934
I do not remember specifically.
169
00:13:06,834 --> 00:13:09,467
But reading this, this is not my words.
170
00:13:10,334 --> 00:13:13,300
[Kelly] Well, if you don't remember,
how can you tell us that?
171
00:13:13,367 --> 00:13:15,034
[man] Objection. Argumentative.
172
00:13:15,100 --> 00:13:17,034
- Go ahead, ma'am.
- [Kelly] You can answer.
173
00:13:22,434 --> 00:13:28,300
I would say I do not speak or talk,
converse, in this kind of verbiage.
174
00:13:28,367 --> 00:13:33,334
[Kelly] Well, we actually had instances
where people attempted to change
175
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,901
what they had said to the investigators
for the attorney general's office
176
00:13:37,968 --> 00:13:39,500
when we were deposing them.
177
00:13:39,567 --> 00:13:42,634
And of course we could produce
the investigatory reports
178
00:13:42,701 --> 00:13:47,367
and say this report says you said...
thus and so.
179
00:13:47,434 --> 00:13:50,100
She may have taken the words
out of context.
180
00:13:50,968 --> 00:13:52,834
[Kelly] What context?
181
00:13:52,901 --> 00:13:58,034
[Kelly] The more attempts there are
to wiggle out of prior statements,
182
00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:00,701
the weaker become the rationalizations.
183
00:14:00,767 --> 00:14:07,500
[Kelly] So we now know that the person
Mrs. Beerntsen described to you
184
00:14:07,567 --> 00:14:09,434
was Gregory Allen, right?
185
00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:11,167
- No.
- No?
186
00:14:11,233 --> 00:14:12,767
No.
187
00:14:12,834 --> 00:14:16,133
Well, we know that Gregory Allen
was the assailant of Mrs. Beerntsen
188
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:17,901
because the DNA has shown that.
189
00:14:17,968 --> 00:14:20,601
Well, you know that.
I don't know that.
190
00:14:20,667 --> 00:14:23,534
I don't take what's in the paper
as gospel truth, believe me.
191
00:14:23,601 --> 00:14:27,834
Well, do you take DNA evidence
that's been done by the state crime lab
192
00:14:27,901 --> 00:14:29,934
- and become the basis for vacating...
- That there was...
193
00:14:30,001 --> 00:14:33,701
Let me finish. Vacating a judgment
of conviction of Steven Avery,
194
00:14:33,767 --> 00:14:38,601
is that enough for you to know that
Steven Avery did not commit this assault?
195
00:14:38,667 --> 00:14:42,500
No. Where did the evidence come from?
That's all I'm asking.
196
00:14:42,567 --> 00:14:45,200
Are you saying you doubt
the DNA examination...
197
00:14:45,267 --> 00:14:47,701
That there was a match?
I believe there was a match.
198
00:14:47,767 --> 00:14:51,867
- OK, so you...
- Has DNA evidence been fabricated before?
199
00:14:51,934 --> 00:14:54,701
- Yes. I don't know. I don't know.
- You think that happened here?
200
00:14:54,767 --> 00:14:59,200
So you actually think that your sketch
is more valid evidence
201
00:14:59,267 --> 00:15:02,867
than the DNA evidence
that's inculpated Gregory Allen.
202
00:15:02,934 --> 00:15:08,901
My drawing was the result
of what image she had in her head.
203
00:15:09,968 --> 00:15:10,801
That's what that is.
204
00:15:10,867 --> 00:15:13,200
I'm just... the pencil.
I'm just the pencil.
205
00:15:13,267 --> 00:15:14,767
That's right. I agree with you. OK.
206
00:15:14,834 --> 00:15:20,901
My sketch looks more like Steven Avery
than it does Gregory Allen.
207
00:15:20,968 --> 00:15:22,567
Right. That's right.
208
00:15:30,467 --> 00:15:33,834
[Glynn] One of the realities
in this kind of litigation
209
00:15:33,901 --> 00:15:38,434
for somebody like Steve Avery,
who has no money, who's never had money,
210
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:44,068
is that the insurance companies
would get together and say...
211
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,467
"Here's a million dollars.
Walk away from this case."
212
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:58,500
What could we possibly do
to prevent Steve from having that happen?
213
00:16:08,267 --> 00:16:11,367
[Glynn] I want to share with you,
you know, how happy we were
214
00:16:11,434 --> 00:16:15,767
when we realized that...
he was very, very close
215
00:16:15,834 --> 00:16:18,734
to having 400 grand put in his hand,
216
00:16:18,801 --> 00:16:24,167
which removes all of the incentive
to take a lowball settlement.
217
00:16:24,901 --> 00:16:28,734
He could then afford to stay
in the lawsuit as long as it took.
218
00:16:36,968 --> 00:16:38,867
[Steven on phone]<i> I'm doing good.</i>
219
00:16:38,934 --> 00:16:43,100
<i>I been working every day almost,
waiting for Jodi to get out.</i>
220
00:16:44,068 --> 00:16:46,001
<i>She got locked up...</i>
221
00:16:46,068 --> 00:16:48,701
<i>drinking, you know, driving.</i>
222
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,500
<i>I hollered at Jodi quite a few times
to stop drinking.</i>
223
00:16:53,567 --> 00:16:59,934
<i>I guess it sunk into her because she did
stop and she's a different person now.</i>
224
00:17:00,001 --> 00:17:02,734
<i>I gotta give her a lot of credit.</i>
225
00:17:04,267 --> 00:17:07,867
<i>When Jodi gets out,
hopefully we can set a wedding date.</i>
226
00:17:18,100 --> 00:17:22,801
We learned during litigation something
we had absolutely no knowledge of
227
00:17:22,867 --> 00:17:24,100
before that lawsuit got started,
228
00:17:24,167 --> 00:17:27,567
that 1995
229
00:17:27,634 --> 00:17:32,567
was a very, very significant point
in this thing.
230
00:17:32,634 --> 00:17:33,667
[man] We're on the record.
231
00:17:33,734 --> 00:17:36,034
We're continuing depositions
on the case of<i> Avery v. Manit...</i>
232
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:41,634
[Glynn] And that there
is not only something to this idea
233
00:17:41,701 --> 00:17:45,634
that law enforcement
had information about somebody else,
234
00:17:45,701 --> 00:17:48,901
but there is serious meat on those bones.
[chuckles]
235
00:17:48,968 --> 00:17:51,267
I mean, serious meat. Um...
236
00:17:51,334 --> 00:17:57,734
What we learn is that while Steven Avery
is sitting in prison now for a decade...
237
00:17:58,634 --> 00:18:04,434
a telephone call comes in to the
Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department
238
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:07,334
from another law enforcement agency,
239
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,068
which at least one of the officers
involved in that process,
240
00:18:11,133 --> 00:18:13,968
believes to be
the Brown County Sheriff's Department,
241
00:18:14,034 --> 00:18:16,500
saying that they had someone in custody
242
00:18:16,567 --> 00:18:19,567
who said that he had
committed an assault in Manitowoc,
243
00:18:19,634 --> 00:18:23,400
and an assault for which somebody
was currently in prison.
244
00:18:26,834 --> 00:18:30,601
- [Glynn] You've gone over exhibit 138.
- Yes, sir.
245
00:18:30,667 --> 00:18:36,434
It describes you receiving
a telephone call, 1994 or 1995,
246
00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:40,634
from someone who identified himself
as a detective, correct?
247
00:18:40,701 --> 00:18:41,701
Yes.
248
00:18:41,767 --> 00:18:45,367
The detective indicated
that there was a person in custody
249
00:18:45,434 --> 00:18:50,068
who had made a statement about
a Manitowoc County offense. Correct?
250
00:18:50,133 --> 00:18:51,467
- Yes.
- OK.
251
00:18:51,534 --> 00:18:56,267
And what that person in custody had said
252
00:18:56,334 --> 00:19:00,133
was that he had committed an assault
in Manitowoc County
253
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,968
and someone else was in jail for it.
Correct?
254
00:19:03,034 --> 00:19:04,133
Yes, sir.
255
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:09,500
Manitowoc doesn't have huge numbers of
major assaults where people go to prison.
256
00:19:09,567 --> 00:19:12,034
And certainly where people
would still be in prison.
257
00:19:15,601 --> 00:19:20,834
There is a very distinct possibility,
I would say likelihood,
258
00:19:20,901 --> 00:19:24,667
that it's Gregory Allen,
it's the Brown County Sheriff's Department
259
00:19:24,734 --> 00:19:30,233
that is that is, in 1995,
on the Gregory Allen Case,
260
00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:35,467
that Gregory Allen has said something
about Steven Avery,
261
00:19:35,534 --> 00:19:40,767
and at a minimum somebody
ought to check this out.
262
00:19:40,834 --> 00:19:43,068
[Glynn] I mean, that's...
that's a significant event.
263
00:19:43,133 --> 00:19:45,801
Right. That's what stood out in my mind.
264
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:49,100
[Glynn] The fellow who got that call
was named Colborn.
265
00:19:49,167 --> 00:19:52,901
And you might say that
there should be a record of him
266
00:19:52,968 --> 00:19:55,434
immediately making a report on this.
267
00:19:55,500 --> 00:20:00,367
There might be a record of his immediately
contacting a supervising officer.
268
00:20:00,434 --> 00:20:04,233
There might be a record of him
contacting a detective
269
00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:06,834
who handles sexual assault cases.
270
00:20:06,901 --> 00:20:09,567
Uh, there might be some record of it.
271
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,534
But if you thought any of those things,
you'd be wrong,
272
00:20:12,601 --> 00:20:16,467
because there isn't any record in 1995,
273
00:20:16,534 --> 00:20:20,667
1996, 1997, 1998, 1999,
274
00:20:20,734 --> 00:20:25,400
2000, 2001, 2002, 2003.
275
00:20:25,467 --> 00:20:30,801
Now 2003 is a year that has meaning
because that's when Steven Avery got out.
276
00:20:30,867 --> 00:20:34,068
And the day he got out,
or the day after,
277
00:20:34,133 --> 00:20:38,801
that's when Colborn decides to contact
his superior officer named Lenk.
278
00:20:38,867 --> 00:20:41,068
And Lenk tells him to write a report,
279
00:20:41,133 --> 00:20:45,400
and they then go have contact
with the sheriff.
280
00:20:45,467 --> 00:20:49,434
Now let's just stop
and think about that for a minute.
281
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:51,267
Why does that happen?
282
00:20:51,334 --> 00:20:56,167
Why does it happen then
when it didn't happen eight years earlier?
283
00:20:56,233 --> 00:21:00,734
Um... I mean, I think I know the answer.
284
00:21:00,801 --> 00:21:03,400
I mean, I think the answer
is pretty clearly,
285
00:21:03,467 --> 00:21:07,068
these people realized
that they had screwed up big-time.
286
00:21:07,133 --> 00:21:10,167
Colborn realized it,
Lenk, as his superior realized it,
287
00:21:10,233 --> 00:21:11,968
and the sheriff realized it.
288
00:21:12,034 --> 00:21:16,801
So Lenk tells Colborn to write a report,
the sheriff tells Lenk,
289
00:21:16,867 --> 00:21:18,400
"Get me the report."
290
00:21:18,467 --> 00:21:20,834
The sheriff puts the report in a safe.
291
00:21:20,901 --> 00:21:24,400
That's how much he cares
about documenting this thing.
292
00:21:24,467 --> 00:21:27,068
Well, obviously, it doesn't do anybody...
293
00:21:27,133 --> 00:21:29,834
Well, it certainly
doesn't do Steve Avery any good
294
00:21:29,901 --> 00:21:34,068
to document that
eight years after the fact.
295
00:21:34,133 --> 00:21:37,634
Because Steve Avery has been
sitting in a cage for those eight years.
296
00:21:47,834 --> 00:21:51,300
[Glynn] This document
didn't begin to get prepared
297
00:21:51,367 --> 00:21:53,233
until after you had
talked to Sheriff Petersen.
298
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:55,100
- Is that a fair statement?
- Correct.
299
00:21:55,167 --> 00:22:01,334
This indicates that Colborn said he
was informed by someone in '95, '96
300
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,100
that "the case was already solved
and the right person was arrested."
301
00:22:05,167 --> 00:22:06,300
- True?
- True.
302
00:22:06,367 --> 00:22:10,400
Sergeant Colborn couldn't recall
who it was that told him
303
00:22:10,467 --> 00:22:13,200
that the case had already been solved.
304
00:22:14,133 --> 00:22:16,001
- True?
- True. It's what he told me.
305
00:22:16,068 --> 00:22:19,434
Did he have... Did he make
any guesses about that or say,
306
00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:22,500
"Gee, it could've been this person, it
could've been that person, I'm not sure"?
307
00:22:22,567 --> 00:22:24,467
He wasn't sure. He...
308
00:22:25,367 --> 00:22:29,334
[Glynn] You recognize exhibit 125?
309
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,400
That's one of the Sheriff's
Department statement forms,
310
00:22:32,467 --> 00:22:34,567
and it looks like
James Lenk's signature on it.
311
00:22:34,634 --> 00:22:38,567
- OK. Have you seen this document before?
- No.
312
00:22:38,634 --> 00:22:42,400
OK. And how about 138, which is the...
313
00:22:42,467 --> 00:22:44,334
- Well, you tell me what it is.
- Yeah.
314
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,001
That's another one of our statement forms.
315
00:22:47,068 --> 00:22:49,667
It looks like it was filled out
by Andrew Colborn.
316
00:22:49,734 --> 00:22:52,034
And again, have you seen
that document before today?
317
00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:53,667
No.
318
00:22:55,068 --> 00:22:58,500
[Steven on phone]
<i>A lot of people told me to watch my back.</i>
319
00:22:58,567 --> 00:23:01,701
<i>Most of the time,
I didn't even believe 'em.</i>
320
00:23:01,767 --> 00:23:05,634
<i>But then, sitting and doing depositions,</i>
321
00:23:05,701 --> 00:23:08,400
<i>I don't know, it kinda changed my mind.</i>
322
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:13,334
<i>They were covering something up.</i>
323
00:23:14,267 --> 00:23:16,734
<i>And they were still covering something up.</i>
324
00:23:18,233 --> 00:23:22,734
<i>Even with the sheriff
who's on there now, he's...</i>
325
00:23:22,801 --> 00:23:24,934
<i>covering something up.</i>
326
00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:31,200
[Glynn] Have you ever had any
conversations with anybody else
327
00:23:31,267 --> 00:23:33,667
other than Sheriff Petersen
and Lieutenant Lenk
328
00:23:33,734 --> 00:23:37,001
about the subject matter of exhibit 138?
329
00:23:37,068 --> 00:23:39,133
Ever discuss it with anyone else?
330
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,068
Any other officers,
any friends, any family?
331
00:23:42,133 --> 00:23:44,200
Not that I can specifically recall.
332
00:23:44,267 --> 00:23:48,867
I may have mentioned it to other people,
but I don't recall doing it.
333
00:23:50,834 --> 00:23:54,567
[Kelly] At the time that you received
information from the crime lab
334
00:23:54,634 --> 00:23:57,434
telling you that Gregory Allen
was inculpated
335
00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:00,034
in the sexual assault of Mrs. Beerntsen,
336
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:03,934
did you have conversation
with any people in the sheriff's office?
337
00:24:04,001 --> 00:24:05,801
- Yes.
- Who were they?
338
00:24:07,867 --> 00:24:09,901
Andy Colborn...
339
00:24:15,434 --> 00:24:16,968
and Jim Lenk...
340
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,734
had information that he had received.
341
00:24:21,133 --> 00:24:24,200
Let me show you what's been marked
as exhibit 124.
342
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:27,567
- I'm familiar with the document.
- OK.
343
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,267
[Kelly] Who is Douglass Jones?
344
00:24:32,334 --> 00:24:34,734
[Rohrer] Assistant district attorney
for Manitowoc County.
345
00:24:34,801 --> 00:24:39,300
All right. What is this memo
to your understanding?
346
00:24:39,367 --> 00:24:40,500
It speaks for itself.
347
00:24:40,567 --> 00:24:44,167
He had a telephone conversation
with Gene Kusche about the case.
348
00:24:46,467 --> 00:24:50,400
[Kelly] This document
reflects a conversation
349
00:24:50,467 --> 00:24:53,467
between you and Douglass Jones
350
00:24:53,534 --> 00:24:58,767
shortly after it became public knowledge
that Steven Avery had been exculpated
351
00:24:58,834 --> 00:25:01,500
and that Gregory Allen
had been inculpated, right?
352
00:25:01,567 --> 00:25:05,567
- That's correct.
- All right. He says as he, Doug Jones,
353
00:25:05,634 --> 00:25:07,500
was trying to close the conversation,
354
00:25:07,567 --> 00:25:11,233
you told him "that in '95 or '96,
355
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:17,601
Andy Colborn had told Manitowoc
County Sheriff, Tom Kocourek,
356
00:25:17,667 --> 00:25:22,167
that an officer from Brown County
had told Colborn
357
00:25:22,233 --> 00:25:27,767
that Allen and not Avery might have
actually committed the Beerntsen assault."
358
00:25:27,834 --> 00:25:31,901
OK? Did you in fact
tell that to Douglass Jones?
359
00:25:31,968 --> 00:25:34,901
- I don't recall.
- All right.
360
00:25:34,968 --> 00:25:39,901
Does seeing this document, 124,
refresh your recollection?
361
00:25:39,968 --> 00:25:44,467
My recollection of this conversation,
which is not very strong,
362
00:25:44,534 --> 00:25:49,367
was that Colborn made a comment to me
about getting some information.
363
00:25:51,233 --> 00:25:52,601
Yeah?
364
00:25:52,667 --> 00:25:56,601
OK, the statement goes on and says,
the next sentence says,
365
00:25:56,667 --> 00:25:58,767
- "Gene stated..." That's you.
- Mm.
366
00:25:58,834 --> 00:26:03,801
"...that Colborn was told by Kocourek
something to the effect that
367
00:26:03,867 --> 00:26:08,068
'we already have the right guy
and he should not concern himself.'"
368
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,001
- Now, did Colborn tell that to you?
- I don't recall it.
369
00:26:13,068 --> 00:26:15,467
Do you have any reason to believe
that Doug Jones
370
00:26:15,534 --> 00:26:18,467
- would misrecord what you told him?
- No.
371
00:26:18,534 --> 00:26:19,867
OK.
372
00:26:21,367 --> 00:26:27,867
Then it goes on to say that Doug Jones
asked you if this information was known.
373
00:26:27,934 --> 00:26:30,734
- Do you remember him asking you that?
- No.
374
00:26:30,801 --> 00:26:37,100
Then it goes on to say that you said Lenk,
M.T.S.O. Lieutenant James Lenk,
375
00:26:37,167 --> 00:26:40,601
Detective Bureau Command Officer,
"was aware."
376
00:26:40,667 --> 00:26:43,001
Did you tell that to Doug Jones?
377
00:26:43,068 --> 00:26:45,867
If he put it there, I probably did.
378
00:26:45,934 --> 00:26:49,167
And what was the basis
for your knowledge about that?
379
00:26:49,233 --> 00:26:51,667
It would've had to have been
from Andy Colborn.
380
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,534
This was unconscionable
withholding of information
381
00:26:59,601 --> 00:27:02,901
that would have been of use
to Steven Avery's lawyers
382
00:27:02,968 --> 00:27:06,434
who were right at that time,
in the middle of litigation,
383
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:09,034
asserting,
based on the fingernail scrapings,
384
00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,267
that there may have been
somebody else involved in this.
385
00:27:12,334 --> 00:27:16,567
If that information
had come to light in 1995,
386
00:27:16,634 --> 00:27:19,701
Steven Avery would've gotten out in 1995.
387
00:27:20,567 --> 00:27:24,334
So they cost Steven Avery
eight years of his life.
388
00:27:26,068 --> 00:27:30,701
This is as close
to a conspiracy of silence
389
00:27:30,767 --> 00:27:33,068
as I think you could find in a case.
390
00:27:33,133 --> 00:27:37,467
[Kelly] Did you provide this information
to the attorney general's office?
391
00:27:37,534 --> 00:27:40,334
Yes. My recollection
says I believe we did.
392
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,667
And who's "we"?
393
00:27:41,734 --> 00:27:44,400
Mike Griesbach and I
when we went to Madison.
394
00:27:45,934 --> 00:27:48,601
But this memo is...
395
00:27:48,667 --> 00:27:51,534
was drafted after
you had been to Madison.
396
00:27:51,601 --> 00:27:53,801
I'm not sure the date we were in Madison.
397
00:27:53,867 --> 00:27:58,601
You're saying you told that information
to the attorney general's office?
398
00:27:58,667 --> 00:28:04,001
We passed everything we had obtained
to the attorney general's office.
399
00:28:04,068 --> 00:28:08,068
OK, well, neither this memo
nor anything about Colborn and Lenk
400
00:28:08,133 --> 00:28:11,667
is in any of the records that were
provided to the attorney general's office.
401
00:28:11,734 --> 00:28:13,233
I can tell you that.
402
00:28:34,734 --> 00:28:36,968
[Kelly] October of 2005,
403
00:28:37,034 --> 00:28:41,534
from the perspective
of the Manitowoc County government
404
00:28:41,601 --> 00:28:43,968
and their defense lawyers,
405
00:28:44,034 --> 00:28:49,567
I believe they all knew that they were
in the most serious kind of trouble.
406
00:28:49,634 --> 00:28:55,634
That there was a very grave prospect
of a very, very substantial verdict.
407
00:29:02,701 --> 00:29:08,601
Manitowoc County and the sheriff
and the district attorney
408
00:29:08,667 --> 00:29:12,100
are arguably covered
by insurance policies,
409
00:29:12,167 --> 00:29:15,367
and there's a good
half dozen insurance policies.
410
00:29:15,434 --> 00:29:18,233
However, the insurers
have taken the position
411
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:22,100
that because of the nature
of the allegations against the county,
412
00:29:22,167 --> 00:29:26,467
the sheriff and the DA,
the policies do not cover.
413
00:29:26,534 --> 00:29:31,801
Which would mean that Manitowoc County
itself and the sheriff and the DA
414
00:29:31,867 --> 00:29:36,001
would be on the hook for those damages
in that civil suit.
415
00:29:39,367 --> 00:29:42,200
[Glynn] We don't need
to have somebody tell us
416
00:29:42,267 --> 00:29:45,634
that this is going to have an effect
on law enforcement.
417
00:29:45,701 --> 00:29:48,934
Of course it has an effect
on law enforcement. Are you kidding me?
418
00:29:49,001 --> 00:29:52,634
I mean, law enforcement officers
get uptight
419
00:29:52,701 --> 00:29:58,334
when there's even a suggestion that they
have said something wrong in a courtroom.
420
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,133
Imagine what it's like when
you're going to say that you're a liar
421
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,734
and that you hid evidence and
that you deliberately prosecuted a person
422
00:30:06,801 --> 00:30:11,068
that you knew, or at least had reason
to know, wasn't guilty of the crime.
423
00:30:11,133 --> 00:30:15,267
And putting all that aside, by the way,
in terms of your own professionalism,
424
00:30:15,334 --> 00:30:17,867
there's a guy out there
raping and beating women
425
00:30:17,934 --> 00:30:21,400
while the guy that you put in prison
is sitting in a cell.
426
00:30:21,467 --> 00:30:22,601
How's that make you feel?
427
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,534
We were just on the absolute edge
428
00:30:32,601 --> 00:30:37,801
of getting ready to go after the named
defendants in the case with depositions...
429
00:30:40,233 --> 00:30:42,734
when I get a call from Walt,
430
00:30:42,801 --> 00:30:47,400
who tells me that he has
gotten a call from a journalist
431
00:30:47,467 --> 00:30:50,734
asking if either of us
would care to comment
432
00:30:50,801 --> 00:30:56,001
on the apparent intersection in life
between Steven Avery
433
00:30:56,068 --> 00:31:00,968
and a woman who has gone missing
in the Manitowoc area,
434
00:31:01,034 --> 00:31:03,167
whom we later learn to be Teresa Halbach.
435
00:31:30,334 --> 00:31:33,001
[news theme song plays]
436
00:31:33,068 --> 00:31:37,467
[announcer] This is Action 2 News at five.
Coverage you can count on.
437
00:31:37,534 --> 00:31:39,667
Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
The Calumet County Sheriff
438
00:31:39,734 --> 00:31:42,734
says the disappearance of Teresa Halbach
remains a mystery tonight.
439
00:31:42,801 --> 00:31:46,500
The 25-year-old was last seen
Monday afternoon in Manitowoc County.
440
00:31:46,567 --> 00:31:49,467
Right now, police are conducting
an aerial search of the land
441
00:31:49,534 --> 00:31:51,034
from Manitowoc to Green Bay.
442
00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:52,667
They're hoping to locate Teresa's car,
443
00:31:52,734 --> 00:31:55,767
which they say is a major key
in their investigation.
444
00:31:55,834 --> 00:32:01,367
That car is a 1999 dark green Toyota RAV4,
just like the one you see here.
445
00:32:01,434 --> 00:32:04,500
Jeff Alexander has the latest
in the investigation.
446
00:32:04,567 --> 00:32:07,167
[Alexander] Halbach
is a professional photographer.
447
00:32:07,233 --> 00:32:09,367
One of her clients is<i> Auto Trader</i>
448
00:32:09,434 --> 00:32:12,867
and police say she was
in Manitowoc County Monday afternoon
449
00:32:12,934 --> 00:32:16,467
at three different private homes,
taking pictures of cars.
450
00:32:16,534 --> 00:32:20,634
Ironically, Halbach's last stop Monday
was at Steven Avery's home.
451
00:32:20,701 --> 00:32:24,334
[female reporter] She was there
to photograph this 1989 Dodge Caravan.
452
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,400
Avery regularly advertises
in<i> Auto Trader</i> magazine
453
00:32:27,467 --> 00:32:29,934
and says Halbach
has visited his home on assignment
454
00:32:30,001 --> 00:32:32,133
several times in the past year.
455
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,968
Did she mention any other appointments
that day or anything like that?
456
00:32:35,034 --> 00:32:36,534
No, I don't think so.
457
00:32:36,601 --> 00:32:38,801
Because most of the time,
she takes a picture
458
00:32:38,867 --> 00:32:41,200
and then she writes down
the serial number...
459
00:32:41,934 --> 00:32:45,400
and then she comes and collects the money
and... and that's about it.
460
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:49,968
OK. So what kinds of questions
are police asking you?
461
00:32:52,867 --> 00:32:56,467
Just when she was out here.
What time. Around.
462
00:32:58,434 --> 00:33:00,267
That was about it.
463
00:33:00,867 --> 00:33:03,167
Did they ask you to take a polygraph
or anything like that?
464
00:33:03,233 --> 00:33:04,968
No. No.
465
00:33:05,034 --> 00:33:09,701
Tonight the cops come and they asked me
if I remembered anything
466
00:33:09,767 --> 00:33:12,267
and I told them no.
467
00:33:12,334 --> 00:33:15,200
You know, then they asked me
if they can come in the house
468
00:33:15,267 --> 00:33:19,233
and check the house over. I said,
"I got no problem with that. Come on in."
469
00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:20,934
So they checked the house all over.
470
00:33:21,567 --> 00:33:23,601
You know, everything was fine
and then they left.
471
00:33:23,667 --> 00:33:27,701
And I mean, knowing her, I mean, what are
your feelings for her parents and...
472
00:33:29,068 --> 00:33:30,634
They must be going through hell.
473
00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:47,901
This is very hard to take.
474
00:33:56,968 --> 00:33:59,701
We love her a lot.
We miss her very much.
475
00:34:01,901 --> 00:34:04,867
It's just very odd that we...
476
00:34:06,567 --> 00:34:08,567
we didn't hear from her
for the last two days
477
00:34:08,634 --> 00:34:11,567
when she didn't return calls, you know?
478
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,133
We're hoping for the best.
479
00:34:14,901 --> 00:34:17,300
If she's out there, we want her home.
480
00:34:17,367 --> 00:34:19,734
You know, we want to know
what happened to her.
481
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:25,233
[man] From what we understand,
she made all three stops.
482
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:27,801
And after the third stop is where,
483
00:34:27,867 --> 00:34:33,100
um, she stopped answering the phone
or she stopped making calls.
484
00:34:33,167 --> 00:34:36,567
She hadn't listened
to any voicemail messages after that.
485
00:34:36,634 --> 00:34:38,701
She didn't make
any credit card transactions.
486
00:34:38,767 --> 00:34:42,100
So... we don't know
what happened after that.
487
00:34:43,133 --> 00:34:46,801
- [female reporter] How are you holding up?
- Um... I mean...
488
00:34:48,534 --> 00:34:52,867
the grieving process, you know,
could last days, could last weeks,
489
00:34:52,934 --> 00:34:54,500
could last years.
490
00:34:54,567 --> 00:34:59,467
You know, hopefully, we find answers
as soon as possible so we can, you know,
491
00:34:59,534 --> 00:35:03,200
begin to...
hopefully, you know, move on,
492
00:35:03,267 --> 00:35:05,267
hopefully with Teresa still in our life.
493
00:35:18,934 --> 00:35:22,801
[man] All the small towns,
even St. Nazianz, Marytown,
494
00:35:22,867 --> 00:35:24,667
Chilton, New Holstein, Kiel...
495
00:35:24,734 --> 00:35:26,634
So basically we're looking
at any public place,
496
00:35:26,701 --> 00:35:31,500
bars, restaurants, gas stations,
grocery stores, post offices, banks...
497
00:35:32,434 --> 00:35:35,801
any place you can think of that's gonna
allow you to put the posters up.
498
00:35:35,867 --> 00:35:38,767
And if anybody knows, like,
Manitowoc-Two Rivers kind of area,
499
00:35:38,834 --> 00:35:42,467
I mean, if you know it...
that would be best to send you guys there.
500
00:35:42,534 --> 00:35:43,901
Like...
501
00:35:43,968 --> 00:35:46,400
If you do find anything,
say you find the truck,
502
00:35:46,467 --> 00:35:49,567
say you talk to somebody
that has seen her or made contact
503
00:35:49,634 --> 00:35:52,867
or knows her whereabouts or anything,
don't touch anything.
504
00:35:52,934 --> 00:35:56,400
Make... It's very important, I guess.
Um, don't touch anything.
505
00:35:56,467 --> 00:36:01,601
Get a hold of either the detective or
dispatch in Chilton and just, you know,
506
00:36:01,667 --> 00:36:03,267
tell them you're really concerned
and you found this
507
00:36:03,334 --> 00:36:06,034
and they can take care of
getting a hold of who we need to.
508
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:08,567
[packing tape crackling]
509
00:36:22,601 --> 00:36:25,001
I don't know what to hope. I don't know
if you want to find a vehicle
510
00:36:25,068 --> 00:36:28,100
and, you know, she's there.
511
00:36:28,167 --> 00:36:30,001
I don't know if you want to find nothing
512
00:36:30,068 --> 00:36:34,001
and hope that she's
somewhere still, um... alive.
513
00:36:34,068 --> 00:36:35,734
You know, we don't know what to...
514
00:36:35,801 --> 00:36:37,500
I don't know what to hope.
515
00:37:12,834 --> 00:37:14,500
[woman on phone] Hi, this is Pam Sturm.
516
00:37:14,567 --> 00:37:18,634
I'm on the search for Teresa Halbach
and we have found a RAV4.
517
00:37:18,701 --> 00:37:20,734
- [man] Is there any license plates on it?
- [Sturm] There's...
518
00:37:20,801 --> 00:37:23,267
No plates on it,
but it's a little covered up.
519
00:37:23,334 --> 00:37:24,801
It's weird. It's covered up.
520
00:37:24,867 --> 00:37:27,334
[man] OK.
Can you get to the front of the car?
521
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:28,834
[Sturm] Yeah, I will.
522
00:37:29,601 --> 00:37:33,601
I can find a VIN number.
Is it OK if I go in the car?
523
00:37:33,667 --> 00:37:36,133
[man] No, do not go in the car.
Do not touch the car.
524
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:37,968
- [Sturm] Yeah, well...
- [man] Stay on the outside of the car,
525
00:37:38,034 --> 00:37:40,068
go over to the front
on the driver's side...
526
00:37:40,133 --> 00:37:41,133
[Sturm] OK, now hang on.
527
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,834
The fir... The last four digits:
three, zero, four, four.
528
00:37:47,901 --> 00:37:50,233
- [man] OK, where are you?
- [Sturm] Is that the number?
529
00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:51,367
[man] Where are you?
530
00:37:51,434 --> 00:37:53,167
[Sturm] No, you gotta tell me
if this is the car.
531
00:37:53,233 --> 00:37:56,367
[man] OK, stop. I can't tell you anything.
Where are you?
532
00:37:56,434 --> 00:37:58,968
[Sturm] I'm at Avery Salvage.
533
00:37:59,034 --> 00:38:00,100
[siren wailing]
534
00:38:00,167 --> 00:38:02,233
[officer 1] Other than the car,
do we have anything else?
535
00:38:02,801 --> 00:38:03,834
[officer 2] Not yet.
536
00:38:05,467 --> 00:38:10,867
- [officer 1] OK, is he in custody?
- [officer 2] Negative, nothing yet.
537
00:38:16,068 --> 00:38:19,200
[female reporter] They blocked off
about a four-mile stretch of the highway
538
00:38:19,267 --> 00:38:21,367
that surrounds the Steven Avery home.
539
00:38:21,434 --> 00:38:25,667
And earlier, hazmat vehicles
also arrived on the scene,
540
00:38:25,734 --> 00:38:29,534
as well as the Great Lakes
K-9 Search and Rescue.
541
00:38:36,801 --> 00:38:40,467
[Jodi] It's just bullshit that they can go
and search our house and nobody there.
542
00:38:40,534 --> 00:38:43,300
[Steven] Well, yeah,
they got the whole yard tore apart.
543
00:38:43,367 --> 00:38:45,701
- [Jodi] Do they?
- [Steven] Yeah, the whole shit.
544
00:38:49,367 --> 00:38:52,100
- [Jodi] I'm scared.
- [Steven] Yeah, me too.
545
00:38:52,167 --> 00:38:56,068
- [Jodi] Well, not scared, just worried.
- [Steven] Yeah.
546
00:39:02,267 --> 00:39:03,968
[female reporter]
What's the status of Steven Avery?
547
00:39:04,034 --> 00:39:07,767
Is he a suspect at this time?
A person of interest?
548
00:39:07,834 --> 00:39:11,100
Uh, everybody is a person of interest
at this particular time.
549
00:39:11,167 --> 00:39:15,133
Steven Avery is no more a suspect
or a person of interest than anybody else
550
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,300
at this particular time.
551
00:39:16,367 --> 00:39:18,500
[male reporter] Everything is aimed
at the Avery compound.
552
00:39:18,567 --> 00:39:21,300
Do you have any other large-scale place
553
00:39:21,367 --> 00:39:23,801
that's being investigated
besides the Avery compound?
554
00:39:23,867 --> 00:39:26,233
[Pagel] I will not disclose
that information.
555
00:39:33,667 --> 00:39:35,867
[female reporter] You know,
there's been speculation around
556
00:39:35,934 --> 00:39:37,367
who has access to the yard.
557
00:39:37,434 --> 00:39:39,801
Do you think your two brothers
could've had anything to do with this?
558
00:39:39,867 --> 00:39:42,367
No. No. Not at all.
559
00:39:42,434 --> 00:39:45,968
Look, anybody can go down the road
at nighttime, you know,
560
00:39:46,034 --> 00:39:47,400
when everybody's sleeping.
561
00:39:47,467 --> 00:39:50,167
You know, just drive in.
My brother ain't gonna hear nothing.
562
00:39:50,233 --> 00:39:54,100
So who do you think
did something with her?
563
00:39:55,001 --> 00:39:56,968
I got no idea.
564
00:39:58,068 --> 00:40:00,667
If the county did something,
or whatever,
565
00:40:00,734 --> 00:40:04,133
in trying to plant evidence on me
or something, I don't know.
566
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,300
I wouldn't put nothing past the county.
567
00:40:08,233 --> 00:40:13,267
To avoid any appearance whatsoever
of any impropriety,
568
00:40:13,334 --> 00:40:16,801
I made the decision
to seek the appointment
569
00:40:16,867 --> 00:40:19,534
of Ken Kratz,
Calumet County District Attorney,
570
00:40:19,601 --> 00:40:22,434
as special prosecutor in this case.
571
00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:26,801
[female reporter] What is your response
to Mr. Avery's comment
572
00:40:26,867 --> 00:40:30,068
that Manitowoc County
may be trying to pull one over on him?
573
00:40:30,133 --> 00:40:32,567
Yeah, that I'm happy to talk about.
574
00:40:32,634 --> 00:40:39,034
That's something that, again,
District Attorney Rohrer and Judge Fox
575
00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:42,068
and really the Manitowoc
Sheriff's Department
576
00:40:42,133 --> 00:40:45,801
and other law enforcement community
was very sensitive to...
577
00:40:45,867 --> 00:40:48,968
any appearance at all of conflict.
578
00:40:49,034 --> 00:40:53,901
Not just an actual conflict,
but any appearance of conflict, I think.
579
00:40:53,968 --> 00:40:56,200
Again, talking about
District Attorney Rohrer,
580
00:40:56,267 --> 00:40:59,400
the foresight that he had
to bring in another agency,
581
00:40:59,467 --> 00:41:01,334
a law enforcement agency,
like Calumet County,
582
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,434
another prosecutor like
the Calumet County District Attorney,
583
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:05,801
was meant to do just that,
584
00:41:05,867 --> 00:41:10,167
to make sure that there couldn't
even be those kind of allegations.
585
00:41:13,467 --> 00:41:14,801
[Steven]<i> They ain't finding nothing.</i>
586
00:41:15,734 --> 00:41:19,300
<i>'Cause there ain't nothing there,
so why are they gonna find anything?</i>
587
00:41:19,367 --> 00:41:22,734
<i>All I can think is they're
trying to railroad me again.</i>
588
00:41:44,167 --> 00:41:46,467
[woman] "Dear Mr. Avery.
I would like to invite you..."
589
00:41:46,534 --> 00:41:50,100
Here, I'll move this chair.
[clears throat]
590
00:41:50,167 --> 00:41:51,867
[man] There's a hole
in the floor right here. Be careful.
591
00:41:51,934 --> 00:41:52,701
[woman] OK.
592
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:56,634
"...to a luncheon that
the Wisconsin Innocence Project
593
00:41:56,701 --> 00:42:01,300
will be holding for exonerees
from Wisconsin and surrounding states
594
00:42:01,367 --> 00:42:03,801
on November 19th of this year.
595
00:42:03,867 --> 00:42:08,100
The purpose of this luncheon
will be to bring exonerees together
596
00:42:08,167 --> 00:42:11,667
to build a network
and support group for each other."
597
00:42:11,734 --> 00:42:16,567
[laughs] I don't think
he's gonna be able to make it.
598
00:42:24,667 --> 00:42:27,334
[woman] We should take all those shoes
in case we have any unsolved burglaries
599
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,100
with foot impressions.
600
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:33,634
[man] Yeah, there we go.
601
00:42:34,734 --> 00:42:36,400
Can you move it over here a little bit?
602
00:42:37,068 --> 00:42:38,200
Perfect.
603
00:42:45,434 --> 00:42:48,100
[Steven] I hadn't been home.
They just been searching.
604
00:42:48,167 --> 00:42:51,068
You know, how hard is it
to put evidence in the house?
605
00:42:51,133 --> 00:42:52,500
Or on the property?
606
00:42:52,567 --> 00:42:57,200
The sheriff... The old sheriff
was out to get me the first time.
607
00:42:57,267 --> 00:43:00,968
How do I know he ain't got nothing
to do with it this time, you know?
608
00:43:01,834 --> 00:43:02,834
I don't know.
609
00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:36,734
[female reporter] Have you continued
to talk to Steven Avery?
610
00:43:36,801 --> 00:43:40,334
They are... He is cooperating
with the investigation.
611
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:41,867
[male reporter]
Is the rest of his family?
612
00:43:41,934 --> 00:43:43,233
Yes, they are.
613
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:45,400
- [male reporter 2] How so?
- [female reporter] Do you yet know
614
00:43:45,467 --> 00:43:49,001
what the order of her appointments was
and who she visited last?
615
00:43:49,068 --> 00:43:51,601
We feel we are narrowing in on that.
616
00:43:51,667 --> 00:43:53,367
[male reporter 3] Do you think
Steven Avery is the last person
617
00:43:53,434 --> 00:43:56,901
- who saw her alive?
- We feel we are narrowing in on that.
618
00:43:56,968 --> 00:44:00,634
Tonight the Averys feel like they've
become the focus of this investigation
619
00:44:00,701 --> 00:44:02,734
and feel like police
are calling them liars.
620
00:44:02,801 --> 00:44:05,167
[female reporter] The entire Avery family
is holed up
621
00:44:05,233 --> 00:44:07,567
in their Marinette County cabin right now,
622
00:44:07,634 --> 00:44:11,734
being told after three days
they still cannot go home.
623
00:44:11,801 --> 00:44:16,534
Yet they say investigators
won't tell them what's going on.
624
00:44:16,601 --> 00:44:19,367
Avery says he once again
feels like a suspect
625
00:44:19,434 --> 00:44:23,167
and fears that any moment,
police could arrest him.
626
00:44:23,233 --> 00:44:25,601
[sniffles]
627
00:44:25,667 --> 00:44:29,901
It all comes back. All these memories
and everything else, and they're...
628
00:44:29,968 --> 00:44:34,834
just sketching me out again.
And deep down, it hurts.
629
00:44:34,901 --> 00:44:37,334
[people singing]
630
00:44:42,901 --> 00:44:46,634
[Mike] A hundred percent of my hopes
are with finding Teresa.
631
00:44:46,701 --> 00:44:49,901
When we last heard,
she was alive on Monday afternoon.
632
00:44:49,968 --> 00:44:52,300
And until we hear otherwise,
that's what we're gonna believe,
633
00:44:52,367 --> 00:44:53,467
that's what we're gonna pray.
634
00:44:53,534 --> 00:44:55,567
[singing continues]
635
00:45:03,867 --> 00:45:07,167
I'm just praying
that God is next to her.
636
00:45:07,233 --> 00:45:08,500
Please bring her home.
637
00:45:08,567 --> 00:45:10,767
That's all we want.
Just bring her home.
638
00:45:10,834 --> 00:45:13,001
[sobbing] Please, somebody find her.
639
00:45:27,601 --> 00:45:30,267
[male reporter] Did they find anything
while you were out searching?
640
00:45:30,334 --> 00:45:33,801
I'm not really gonna comment on that,
but if anything was found, you know,
641
00:45:33,867 --> 00:45:38,334
we had proper authority and had
professionals take a look at it as needed.
642
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,701
[reporter 2]
How many times were you on the site?
643
00:45:41,567 --> 00:45:43,334
You were there Saturday
when they found the car,
644
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,034
but how many other times
were you on the site?
645
00:45:46,100 --> 00:45:49,068
- I... I wasn't... I wasn't on the site.
- You were never on the site.
646
00:45:49,133 --> 00:45:50,467
That's not true at all.
647
00:45:50,534 --> 00:45:51,901
[male reporter 2]
Did you get there, Mike?
648
00:45:51,968 --> 00:45:54,100
Were you a part of the...
on the site searching?
649
00:45:54,167 --> 00:45:55,701
- We...
- No, the people...
650
00:45:55,767 --> 00:45:57,534
I mean, the original...
651
00:45:57,601 --> 00:46:00,734
Who originally found the vehicle
was a member of our search party.
652
00:46:00,801 --> 00:46:05,334
- It was a member of our search party.
- Who asked permission to go onto the site.
653
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,001
But no one other than that
has ever been on the Avery property.
654
00:46:09,068 --> 00:46:14,034
On the actual site. It's been
crime scene and taped off. Secured.
655
00:46:21,467 --> 00:46:25,734
[man] Significant evidence has been
discovered over the past 24 hours
656
00:46:25,801 --> 00:46:28,167
at the Avery Salvage Yard.
657
00:46:28,233 --> 00:46:32,701
And the evidence that we've collected
is leading us to that of a human person.
658
00:46:39,233 --> 00:46:40,867
You know, we're all victims.
659
00:46:41,667 --> 00:46:43,267
You know,
and they just won't leave us alone.
660
00:46:43,334 --> 00:46:45,200
They just keep it up, keep it up.
661
00:46:45,267 --> 00:46:46,200
You know, it's...
662
00:46:47,534 --> 00:46:51,267
You know, a person
only can take so much. You know?
663
00:46:52,634 --> 00:46:56,901
Right now, I got enough of 'em.
You know?
664
00:46:56,968 --> 00:47:01,434
They can go somewhere else and...
and just leave us alone.
665
00:47:01,500 --> 00:47:04,968
Let us do our life and live normal.
666
00:47:11,968 --> 00:47:14,467
Well, as I am sure everybody is aware,
667
00:47:14,534 --> 00:47:20,100
the scope of this investigation
is now criminal in nature
668
00:47:20,167 --> 00:47:24,767
and we are classifying it
as a homicide investigation.
669
00:47:24,834 --> 00:47:29,534
Um, it appears that an attempt was made
670
00:47:29,601 --> 00:47:33,500
to dispose of a body
by an incendiary means.
671
00:47:33,567 --> 00:47:40,001
Pieces of human bone and teeth
were found on the Avery property,
672
00:47:40,068 --> 00:47:43,434
and the key that was used
673
00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:47,834
to start Teresa Halbach's vehicle
674
00:47:47,901 --> 00:47:51,133
was found in Steven Avery's bedroom.
675
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:57,367
And again I want to emphasize
that the investigation
676
00:47:57,434 --> 00:48:03,300
revolves around one victim in this case
and that's Teresa Halbach.
677
00:48:03,367 --> 00:48:05,734
And I also want to emphasize
678
00:48:05,801 --> 00:48:12,233
that the Manitowoc County Sheriff's
Department's role in this investigation
679
00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:16,834
was to provide resources for us
when they were needed.
680
00:48:16,901 --> 00:48:22,100
As we needed items on the property
681
00:48:22,167 --> 00:48:24,567
to conduct searches,
682
00:48:24,634 --> 00:48:28,934
they provided that piece of equipment
and that's their role
683
00:48:29,001 --> 00:48:30,934
and their only role in this investigation.
684
00:48:31,001 --> 00:48:34,200
I spoke with Steven Avery's attorney
by phone this afternoon.
685
00:48:34,267 --> 00:48:37,334
Walt Kelly told me he'd been
unable to speak to Avery,
686
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,934
didn't know where he was
and feared what might happen to him
687
00:48:40,001 --> 00:48:43,233
when he was questioned about
Teresa Halbach's disappearance.
688
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:46,367
[Kelly on phone]
I spent the entire afternoon,
689
00:48:46,434 --> 00:48:49,934
including direct conversation
with Sheriff Pagel,
690
00:48:50,001 --> 00:48:52,100
trying to locate my client.
691
00:48:52,167 --> 00:48:55,734
My colleague Steve Glynn
was in an automobile in the area
692
00:48:55,801 --> 00:48:57,233
trying to find him.
693
00:48:57,300 --> 00:49:00,667
I think they purposely
have kept him away from us.
694
00:49:00,734 --> 00:49:02,567
I think they want to question him
in our absence.
695
00:49:02,634 --> 00:49:05,267
[female reporter] Where is Avery
right now? Which jail? Do you know?
696
00:49:05,334 --> 00:49:07,500
- I don't. I'm sorry.
- I don't know which jail. I...
697
00:49:07,567 --> 00:49:09,300
[female reporter]
You don't know where Steven Avery is?
698
00:49:09,367 --> 00:49:12,068
We know where he is, but we are
not releasing that information
699
00:49:12,133 --> 00:49:15,434
because we do not have contact...
700
00:49:16,233 --> 00:49:19,500
- [female reporter] He's entitled to...
- [indistinct chatter]
701
00:49:20,567 --> 00:49:22,400
[Wiegert] You know how this works.
702
00:49:23,968 --> 00:49:25,567
You can't beat the evidence.
703
00:49:25,634 --> 00:49:29,500
- [Fassbender] Work with us a little.
- [Wiegert] Think of your family.
704
00:49:29,567 --> 00:49:30,734
I did not do it.
705
00:49:30,801 --> 00:49:34,267
How's your family gonna be when
they think you're a cold-blooded person?
706
00:49:34,334 --> 00:49:36,133
- I did not do it.
- If you made a mistake,
707
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:37,801
they'll understand that.
708
00:49:37,867 --> 00:49:39,701
Yeah, but if there's a crooked cop...
709
00:49:39,767 --> 00:49:42,267
So you're telling me
somebody planted the body?
710
00:49:42,334 --> 00:49:44,767
- I didn't do it.
- Who did it?
711
00:49:44,834 --> 00:49:46,167
- I don't know.
- Steve.
712
00:49:46,233 --> 00:49:47,534
I do not know.
713
00:49:47,601 --> 00:49:50,133
Steve, think of your family here
for a second.
714
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:51,834
- I am thinking of my family!
- No, you're not.
715
00:49:51,901 --> 00:49:53,701
- You're thinking of yourself.
- No.
716
00:49:53,767 --> 00:49:55,300
You're thinking of yourself.
717
00:49:55,367 --> 00:49:57,601
[Fassbender]
And we don't blame you for doing that.
718
00:49:57,667 --> 00:50:01,667
Goddamn it, you had 17 years in prison
for something you didn't freaking do.
719
00:50:01,734 --> 00:50:05,233
- I didn't do this one.
- And we understand that.
720
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:08,567
- You made a mistake. You made a mistake.
- No, I did not. I didn't do nothing.
721
00:50:08,634 --> 00:50:11,100
- How could I make a mistake?
- So you intentionally killed her.
722
00:50:11,167 --> 00:50:13,167
- That what you're telling me?
- No, I didn't. I didn't do nothing.
723
00:50:13,233 --> 00:50:16,400
How did it happen?
Explain to me how it happened.
724
00:50:16,467 --> 00:50:19,001
[Pagel] I would like
to introduce two individuals
725
00:50:19,068 --> 00:50:22,634
who I feel have done a fantastic job
in this investigation.
726
00:50:22,701 --> 00:50:28,734
Investigator Mark Wiegert from my office
and Special Agent Tom Fassbender,
727
00:50:28,801 --> 00:50:31,367
from the Department
of Criminal Investigation.
728
00:50:31,434 --> 00:50:33,100
[male reporter] You said yesterday
and earlier in the week
729
00:50:33,167 --> 00:50:37,867
"there's only one victim in this case."
Can you explain why you said that?
730
00:50:37,934 --> 00:50:41,001
Sheriff Pagel said that. I've said that
before, but go ahead, Sheriff.
731
00:50:41,068 --> 00:50:47,701
OK. There is only one victim in
this matter and that is Teresa Halbach.
732
00:50:47,767 --> 00:50:50,500
She is the individual who lost her life.
733
00:50:50,567 --> 00:50:55,467
And that is the one
and only victim in this matter.
734
00:50:55,534 --> 00:50:59,467
[Kratz] It... I'll comment further.
I don't have a problem with this.
735
00:50:59,534 --> 00:51:02,267
I've heard many reports
736
00:51:02,334 --> 00:51:07,634
and have seen images
of a specific suspect in this case,
737
00:51:07,701 --> 00:51:12,068
now Mr. Avery, on the various media,
738
00:51:12,133 --> 00:51:15,034
suggesting that,
"Why are they looking at me?"
739
00:51:15,934 --> 00:51:21,634
"Why would I be asked questions
about Teresa's death and disappearance?"
740
00:51:21,701 --> 00:51:27,534
I hope with the DNA positive analysis
and the other surrounding circumstances
741
00:51:27,601 --> 00:51:29,667
that that question
doesn't have to be asked anymore.
742
00:51:29,734 --> 00:51:31,467
[Wiegert] I know you're scared, Steve.
I know you're scared.
743
00:51:31,534 --> 00:51:34,167
- I'm not scared.
- Because you didn't mean to kill her.
744
00:51:34,233 --> 00:51:36,667
- I don't think you meant to kill her.
- No, I did not kill her.
745
00:51:36,734 --> 00:51:38,200
- This wasn't a planned thing.
- No.
746
00:51:38,267 --> 00:51:39,767
- Did you plan it?
- No.
747
00:51:39,834 --> 00:51:41,200
OK, I didn't think so.
748
00:51:41,267 --> 00:51:43,133
I didn't think you're that kind of a guy
from meeting you.
749
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,034
I think what happened,
you come out of prison
750
00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:47,968
for serving time
for something you didn't even do...
751
00:51:48,034 --> 00:51:50,334
- I did not do it.
- ...and it screws you up in the head.
752
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:51,867
Like it screws everybody up.
753
00:51:51,934 --> 00:51:54,734
They didn't give you any counseling.
You said before they gave no counseling.
754
00:51:54,801 --> 00:51:57,034
- I did not kill her.
- The body's on your property.
755
00:51:57,100 --> 00:51:58,734
The key is in your bedroom.
756
00:51:58,801 --> 00:52:01,133
You know the key is there
because you put the key there.
757
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,400
- That's the only way the key gets there.
- No.
758
00:52:03,467 --> 00:52:05,667
Yes, Steve. Yes. That's the fact.
759
00:52:05,734 --> 00:52:09,901
You can deny it all you want.
The evidence will show that, OK?
760
00:52:09,968 --> 00:52:13,001
- That's the way it is.
- But the cops got the evidence.
761
00:52:13,068 --> 00:52:16,734
Yeah. Two independent investigators
that have never met you.
762
00:52:16,801 --> 00:52:19,001
Two people who have never met you.
763
00:52:19,068 --> 00:52:21,167
Have nothing against you.
764
00:52:21,233 --> 00:52:24,400
- I know nothing about you.
- No, you see,
765
00:52:24,467 --> 00:52:27,001
if somebody else plants that shit there,
you ain't gonna see it...
766
00:52:27,068 --> 00:52:29,267
Then why are your...
Why is your DNA in there?
767
00:52:29,334 --> 00:52:31,701
Why is her blood in your house?
768
00:52:31,767 --> 00:52:33,567
How are they going to get that blood
in your house?
769
00:52:33,634 --> 00:52:36,634
How is her blood in my house?
It can't be.
770
00:52:36,701 --> 00:52:40,034
I used to leave my house open
all the time.
771
00:52:40,100 --> 00:52:42,133
How does your DNA get inside of her truck?
772
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,034
My DNA ain't.
That's because they got blood out of me.
773
00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:49,001
How much blood do they get out of me?
A lot of blood.
774
00:52:49,068 --> 00:52:50,867
- Steve.
- They got a lot of blood outta me.
775
00:52:50,934 --> 00:52:54,034
- That sheriff?
- Steve. Come back to reality here.
776
00:52:54,100 --> 00:52:55,334
- I am.
- No, you're not.
777
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,167
I did 18 years.
You think I want to do any more?
778
00:52:58,233 --> 00:53:02,233
As special prosecutor,
I have also been asked to comment
779
00:53:02,300 --> 00:53:06,367
upon any possibility of tainted evidence
780
00:53:06,434 --> 00:53:08,968
or of something along those lines.
781
00:53:09,034 --> 00:53:12,367
There was some mention, in the media,
782
00:53:12,434 --> 00:53:18,068
that this key in his bedroom could've been
left or planted or something of the like.
783
00:53:18,133 --> 00:53:24,167
Now that Mr. Avery's DNA
is found on that particular key,
784
00:53:24,233 --> 00:53:27,701
I was left to question whether or not
people would have me believe
785
00:53:27,767 --> 00:53:31,901
that not only are they carrying
around keys for Teresa's vehicle,
786
00:53:31,968 --> 00:53:35,767
but they're also carrying around vials
of Mr. Avery's DNA with them,
787
00:53:35,834 --> 00:53:39,267
whether it's perspiration or whatever.
It's absurd.
788
00:53:40,534 --> 00:53:47,334
Because DNA evidence from the suspect,
Steven Avery, was found on the key
789
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:53,834
and Mr. Avery's blood is found
inside of Teresa Halbach's vehicle,
790
00:53:53,901 --> 00:53:58,901
it is no longer a question, at least in my
mind as a special prosecutor in this case,
791
00:53:58,968 --> 00:54:02,934
who is responsible
for the death of Teresa Halbach.
792
00:54:03,001 --> 00:54:06,334
[female reporter] Hey, Steve! Everybody's
listening! What do you want to say today?
793
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:07,634
I'm innocent.
794
00:54:07,701 --> 00:54:10,867
[female reporter] What else do you want to
say, Steven? We can't tell it without you.
795
00:54:22,434 --> 00:54:24,867
[Steven on phone]<i> You know, last time,</i>
<i>it took me 18 years and six weeks</i>
796
00:54:24,934 --> 00:54:26,034
<i>to prove my innocence.</i>
797
00:54:27,734 --> 00:54:29,567
<i>This time, I don't know how long.</i>
798
00:54:44,734 --> 00:54:48,534
[theme music plays]
799
00:54:48,568 --> 00:54:53,568
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
==========EPISODE 3=============
1
00:00:06,401 --> 00:00:12,534
It's this simple: once Steven Avery
is accused of this murder,
2
00:00:12,601 --> 00:00:17,967
and a lot of things... seem to clearly
point to him having done it,
3
00:00:18,033 --> 00:00:21,534
as much as you mentally want to give
the benefit of the doubt to him,
4
00:00:21,601 --> 00:00:22,801
it becomes impossible.
5
00:00:27,434 --> 00:00:29,801
[news theme music plays]
6
00:00:29,868 --> 00:00:34,501
[announcer] This is<i> Action 2 News</i> at five.
Coverage you can count on.
7
00:00:34,567 --> 00:00:37,434
Ironically, Steven Avery's arrest comes
at the same time Governor Jim Doyle
8
00:00:37,501 --> 00:00:39,900
plans to sign a sweeping
criminal justice reform bill
9
00:00:39,967 --> 00:00:42,100
inspired by Avery's wrongful conviction.
10
00:00:42,167 --> 00:00:44,900
[male reporter] Two weeks ago,
the bill passed unanimously
11
00:00:44,967 --> 00:00:48,167
and Governor Doyle
told me today he will sign it,
12
00:00:48,234 --> 00:00:51,300
despite the pending
murder charges against Avery.
13
00:00:51,367 --> 00:00:54,234
[Doyle] I assume that the legislators
who named this task force
14
00:00:54,300 --> 00:00:56,967
probably wish they
had a different name for it.
15
00:00:58,601 --> 00:01:00,601
[Gundrum] I just told
the governor's office,
16
00:01:00,667 --> 00:01:04,134
you know, you can actually just sign that
behind closed doors, just get it done.
17
00:01:05,701 --> 00:01:07,734
[Steven on phone]<i> They made the Avery Bill</i>
<i>so an innocent person</i>
18
00:01:07,801 --> 00:01:10,868
<i>ain't gotta sit in jail
for something they didn't do.</i>
19
00:01:11,734 --> 00:01:13,234
<i>And their word ain't no good on it.</i>
20
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,267
<i>I was up there to all the meetings.
They know me.</i>
21
00:01:17,334 --> 00:01:21,900
<i>The should have some kind of respect
to know what I'm like.</i>
22
00:01:22,801 --> 00:01:24,334
<i>They just don't get what happened.</i>
23
00:01:25,234 --> 00:01:27,334
<i>You know, they don't care about the truth.</i>
24
00:01:27,401 --> 00:01:29,167
[male reporter] Representative
Mark Gundrum
25
00:01:29,234 --> 00:01:32,033
says he's in utter shock
over Avery's arrest.
26
00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:35,900
[Gundrum] It's just,
it's kind of hard to grapple with
27
00:01:35,967 --> 00:01:38,367
that somebody
that shows emotions like that,
28
00:01:38,434 --> 00:01:42,167
like a human being,
could in fact be a monster.
29
00:01:48,167 --> 00:01:51,100
[female reporter] We also learned today
the deposition schedule for tomorrow
30
00:01:51,167 --> 00:01:55,167
in Steven Avery's civil lawsuit against
Manitowoc County had been canceled.
31
00:01:55,234 --> 00:01:58,967
[Kelly] The transformation
from Steven Avery
32
00:01:59,033 --> 00:02:03,367
as wronged victim
of a miscarriage of justice
33
00:02:03,434 --> 00:02:08,300
to Steven Avery,
the horrendous murderer
34
00:02:08,367 --> 00:02:13,000
of an innocent young woman...
was breathtaking.
35
00:02:13,067 --> 00:02:15,200
It left me stunned.
36
00:02:15,267 --> 00:02:19,234
The absence of any serious commentary
37
00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:23,200
that the presumption of innocence
that he enjoys may, in fact, be valid.
38
00:02:23,267 --> 00:02:26,734
That there should not
be a rush to judgment.
39
00:02:28,300 --> 00:02:34,801
I thought it was just awesome
how endangered he is as an accused.
40
00:02:36,768 --> 00:02:39,401
- [theme music plays]
- [geese honking]
41
00:03:39,998 --> 00:03:44,998
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
42
00:03:54,467 --> 00:03:57,267
- What are you gonna present today?
- Uh, no comment.
43
00:03:57,334 --> 00:03:59,868
Is he gonna wait
or go ahead with his prelim?
44
00:03:59,933 --> 00:04:01,267
We're gonna have a prelim.
45
00:04:01,334 --> 00:04:03,501
- [man] Watch out.
- I'm sorry? I missed that.
46
00:04:03,567 --> 00:04:08,234
- We're having a prelim today. Yes.
- OK. Are you confident about the case?
47
00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:10,234
As confident as I can be at this point.
48
00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:13,567
We still have a lot of information
to gather, so...
49
00:04:13,634 --> 00:04:15,933
- Thanks.
- [stammers]
50
00:04:20,634 --> 00:04:24,033
[male reporter 1] Would you guys
put up your property as bond?
51
00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:26,467
[male reporter 2] Are you willing
to risk everything that you have?
52
00:04:27,134 --> 00:04:28,667
Yes, we are.
53
00:04:30,134 --> 00:04:32,434
[female reporter] Mr. Avery?
Have you talked to him on the phone?
54
00:04:32,501 --> 00:04:33,667
Have you said anything to him?
55
00:04:41,134 --> 00:04:42,768
Wait right here, OK?
56
00:05:13,701 --> 00:05:15,334
[bailiff] All rise.
57
00:05:19,501 --> 00:05:20,933
[judge] You may be seated.
58
00:05:27,234 --> 00:05:32,267
At this time, the court calls
<i>State of Wisconsin v. Steven A. Avery.</i>
59
00:05:32,334 --> 00:05:36,834
These matters are scheduled for
a preliminary examination this afternoon.
60
00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:38,868
Mr. Kratz, you may call
your first witness.
61
00:05:38,933 --> 00:05:44,467
[Kratz] Ms. Sturm, when you came across
a RAV4 at the Avery Auto Salvage,
62
00:05:44,534 --> 00:05:47,134
can you tell us what you saw
and what you thought?
63
00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:53,167
Well, it was so unusual because there were
branches leaning up against this vehicle.
64
00:05:54,033 --> 00:05:59,768
So I went around to the back and it says
"RAV4" on it, Toyota, and it...
65
00:05:59,834 --> 00:06:01,534
I just... I thought,
66
00:06:01,601 --> 00:06:03,667
"Well, yeah, it's gotta be that car."
67
00:06:03,734 --> 00:06:06,000
From the eight feet
south of that burn pit,
68
00:06:06,067 --> 00:06:09,100
I could clearly see
that there was some bone matter
69
00:06:09,167 --> 00:06:11,234
located around the debris pile.
70
00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:15,100
And then I walked over and
took a closer look at the charred debris
71
00:06:15,167 --> 00:06:17,033
and there was quite a bit of bone matter
72
00:06:17,100 --> 00:06:21,134
intertwined within the steel belts
of burned tires and so forth.
73
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,834
At one point, we found a key that
appeared to be from a Toyota vehicle.
74
00:06:25,900 --> 00:06:28,200
It was on the floor when we found it,
75
00:06:28,267 --> 00:06:32,868
next to a cabinet that Lieutenant Lenk
and Sergeant Colborn had been searching.
76
00:06:32,933 --> 00:06:36,567
[Loy] All right. And Lieutenant Lenk
and Sergeant Colborn
77
00:06:36,634 --> 00:06:38,768
are officers of Calumet County?
78
00:06:38,834 --> 00:06:41,601
- Uh, no, Manitowoc County.
- [Loy] Manitowoc County.
79
00:06:41,667 --> 00:06:47,401
And as far as you know, no one saw this
key until November 8th, is that right?
80
00:06:47,467 --> 00:06:48,868
[Kucharski] Correct.
81
00:06:48,933 --> 00:06:52,367
[Loy] And those slippers were moved
before the key was seen?
82
00:06:52,434 --> 00:06:53,267
[Kucharski] Yes.
83
00:06:53,334 --> 00:06:56,300
And the first time they were moved,
nobody saw the key?
84
00:06:56,367 --> 00:06:58,801
The key wasn't there
the first time they were moved.
85
00:07:00,401 --> 00:07:04,534
[Loy] And when you saw it there,
it was sitting out there in plain view
86
00:07:04,601 --> 00:07:06,134
right on the floor, is that right?
87
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,100
It was actually Lieutenant Lenk
that saw the key first.
88
00:07:10,167 --> 00:07:12,501
He pointed to the floor and said,
"There's a key there."
89
00:07:12,567 --> 00:07:17,367
The profile developed from the buckle
swabs that were taken from Steven Avery
90
00:07:17,434 --> 00:07:23,367
was consistent with the DNA profile
that I developed from both the Toyota key
91
00:07:23,434 --> 00:07:26,801
and the apparent blood stains
that were taken from the ignition.
92
00:07:27,768 --> 00:07:28,933
[prosecutor] Nothing further.
93
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,868
[Judge Willis] All right,
the witness is excused.
94
00:07:30,933 --> 00:07:33,067
We'll take our afternoon break
at this time.
95
00:07:37,401 --> 00:07:40,567
[Kelly] It's my belief, having attended
the preliminary hearing,
96
00:07:40,634 --> 00:07:45,367
that there's a tremendous opportunity
to present a real and substantial defense.
97
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,534
But he would need a lot of money
to put up the kind of defense
98
00:07:51,601 --> 00:07:55,000
that should be put up
in this criminal case.
99
00:07:55,768 --> 00:07:57,667
[Judge Willis]
Based on the evidence presented,
100
00:07:57,734 --> 00:08:00,534
the court is going to determine
that there's probable cause
101
00:08:00,601 --> 00:08:03,267
to believe that a felony
has been committed.
102
00:08:03,334 --> 00:08:05,367
We are adjourned for today.
103
00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:09,401
[female reporter] Mrs. Avery,
I'm Angenette from Channel 5.
104
00:08:09,467 --> 00:08:11,434
- We just wanted to ask you...
- My son is innocent.
105
00:08:11,501 --> 00:08:14,601
- What's the matter with you?
- Ma'am, can you please tell us about that?
106
00:08:14,667 --> 00:08:16,967
In spite of all the evidence today?
107
00:08:23,167 --> 00:08:25,200
[Mike Halbach]
You know, he's denying this.
108
00:08:25,267 --> 00:08:26,868
He certainly has to blame it
on someone else.
109
00:08:26,933 --> 00:08:30,401
Why not... I mean...
He chooses the Manitowoc County police.
110
00:08:30,467 --> 00:08:32,667
I don't believe that one bit. Um...
111
00:08:32,734 --> 00:08:35,434
All the evidence I know about
and the evidence, other evidence,
112
00:08:35,501 --> 00:08:38,768
that was presented today
obviously are leading to him.
113
00:08:45,567 --> 00:08:48,768
Today, the Halbach family
came face-to-face with Steven Avery,
114
00:08:48,834 --> 00:08:50,868
the man accused of killing
their beloved Teresa.
115
00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:57,567
Steven Avery remains in the Calumet County
jail on a $500,000 cash bond.
116
00:08:59,401 --> 00:09:01,067
[female reporter]
If convicted of these charges,
117
00:09:01,134 --> 00:09:03,567
Steven Avery will spend
the rest of his life in prison.
118
00:09:29,801 --> 00:09:31,667
[Steven on phone]
They got two weeks to get me out.
119
00:09:31,734 --> 00:09:33,667
- [Dolores] Who does?
- [Steven] Anybody.
120
00:09:34,900 --> 00:09:36,434
If I ain't out, it's over.
121
00:09:38,067 --> 00:09:39,501
[Dolores] Now you're
talking stupid again.
122
00:09:39,567 --> 00:09:41,667
[Steven] No, I'm giving myself two weeks.
123
00:09:41,734 --> 00:09:44,300
- [Dolores] Don't act so stupid!
- [Steven laughs] You watch me.
124
00:09:46,134 --> 00:09:48,501
- [Chuck] What?
- [Steven] It's over.
125
00:09:48,567 --> 00:09:51,868
- [Chuck] Don't get strange.
- [Steven] I ain't strange.
126
00:09:51,933 --> 00:09:54,967
'Cause I'm sick of this world.
I'm sick of suffering.
127
00:09:55,501 --> 00:09:57,434
[Chuck] You know,
better days are coming. Just...
128
00:09:57,501 --> 00:09:58,900
[Steven]
No, there ain't no better days coming.
129
00:09:58,967 --> 00:09:59,967
[Chuck] Yeah, there is.
130
00:10:00,033 --> 00:10:02,134
[Steven] No,
there could be worse days coming.
131
00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,701
- [Chuck] Just hold on and...
- [Steven] I'm gonna hold on. Two weeks.
132
00:10:04,768 --> 00:10:07,434
[Chuck] ...you'll be out.
'Cause I'm putting the business up.
133
00:10:07,501 --> 00:10:09,967
[Dolores] That's more
than your bail, even.
134
00:10:10,033 --> 00:10:12,200
[Steven] That should've been
put up a long time ago, then.
135
00:10:12,267 --> 00:10:13,434
I told you, I'm sick of this.
136
00:10:13,501 --> 00:10:14,667
[Chuck] I know you're going through hell,
137
00:10:14,734 --> 00:10:19,634
but... settle down
and settle the mind down.
138
00:10:19,701 --> 00:10:23,601
- We won't give up on this side.
- [Steven] I'm giving up on this side.
139
00:10:23,667 --> 00:10:25,734
[Chuck] You don't give up
on your side, either.
140
00:10:25,801 --> 00:10:28,334
[Steven] Well, then you gotta
put your ass in gear, then.
141
00:10:28,401 --> 00:10:33,167
[Chuck] We're trying, Steve, so you just
gotta hang in there and whatnot.
142
00:10:33,234 --> 00:10:35,334
[Steven] They're gonna win anyway.
143
00:10:37,667 --> 00:10:39,167
[Chuck] No, they're not.
144
00:10:39,234 --> 00:10:42,868
[Steven] Poor people lose.
Poor people lose all the time.
145
00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:49,467
[Chuck] Yeah, I don't know.
146
00:10:50,768 --> 00:10:53,933
- Well, I'll put Ma back on here now.
- [Steven] All right.
147
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,300
[Dolores] Now don't talk stupid. You're
innocent. What's the matter with you?
148
00:10:58,367 --> 00:11:02,000
- [Steven] I know. But so what?
- [Dolores] I'll give you a "so what."
149
00:11:02,067 --> 00:11:04,634
I'll hit you right
on your nose through the phone.
150
00:11:04,701 --> 00:11:06,900
[Steven] Yeah? Come on, then.
151
00:11:06,967 --> 00:11:10,300
- [Dolores] There. Now I hurt my finger.
- [Steven] Yeah.
152
00:11:12,933 --> 00:11:15,534
Critical evidence builds the case
against Steven Avery.
153
00:11:15,601 --> 00:11:19,868
We're live with how DNA leaves little
doubt about the fate of Teresa Halbach.
154
00:11:19,933 --> 00:11:23,534
State Senator Alan Lasee
introduced an advisory referendum
155
00:11:23,601 --> 00:11:27,067
that would let voters decide if
the death penalty should be brought back.
156
00:11:27,134 --> 00:11:31,367
Every statement he makes to the press,
to the media, will be taken apart.
157
00:11:31,434 --> 00:11:33,634
[male reporter] These are the Easter cards
Steven Avery sent
158
00:11:33,701 --> 00:11:35,634
to his four children in 1988.
159
00:11:35,701 --> 00:11:39,768
He asked for kisses,
then threatens to kill his ex-wife.
160
00:11:39,834 --> 00:11:43,467
Just another side to this
man's seemingly split personality.
161
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:51,434
"Steven Avery is a murderer. May your
entire family rot in hell. Bastard."
162
00:11:54,967 --> 00:11:57,501
That's just one of the letters
that we get.
163
00:11:59,434 --> 00:12:01,601
[Dolores] Well, this one was real nasty.
164
00:12:03,467 --> 00:12:09,634
This one says "Steven Avery is a killer.
Please tell his mother to shut her mouth.
165
00:12:09,701 --> 00:12:13,434
The public does not want to hear it."
166
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,667
It seems to me right now that
he's getting treated just like a dog
167
00:12:19,734 --> 00:12:23,734
or anything else that's cooped up.
168
00:12:23,801 --> 00:12:27,434
But... who am I to say? Who am I?
169
00:12:29,167 --> 00:12:31,033
[Barb] I think they ought
to just leave him out
170
00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:34,734
and let us go on with our lives
and leave us alone.
171
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,634
[Steven on phone]<i> They can have the money.</i>
172
00:12:47,701 --> 00:12:50,300
<i>You know, if it's 'cause
of all that money.</i>
173
00:12:51,167 --> 00:12:52,401
<i>I'll give that money up.</i>
174
00:12:53,434 --> 00:12:55,000
<i>As long as they let me alone.</i>
175
00:12:56,401 --> 00:13:00,401
<i>I want my freedom,
and I want to get married again.</i>
176
00:13:01,634 --> 00:13:04,667
<i>Money ain't nothing, you know,
if I can't live it.</i>
177
00:13:08,434 --> 00:13:14,900
[Yvonne] I pray the media, the people that
said, "Find him guilty," think about that.
178
00:13:14,967 --> 00:13:16,667
Why would he do it?
179
00:13:17,834 --> 00:13:20,300
Don't people see this?
180
00:13:20,367 --> 00:13:22,701
He had his whole life ahead of him.
181
00:13:22,768 --> 00:13:25,667
Spent 20 years in prison
trying to get out.
182
00:13:25,734 --> 00:13:28,267
Parents trying to get you out.
You get out.
183
00:13:28,334 --> 00:13:29,701
You got a big smile on your face.
184
00:13:29,768 --> 00:13:31,801
You're walking out. You're happy.
185
00:13:31,868 --> 00:13:34,234
To put the handcuffs back on you?
186
00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:36,667
No. No.
187
00:13:36,734 --> 00:13:38,967
Something...
Something is terribly wrong there.
188
00:13:39,033 --> 00:13:41,067
Something is terribly wrong.
189
00:13:48,167 --> 00:13:49,801
[Allan] They don't care.
190
00:13:49,868 --> 00:13:52,234
They'll take an innocent man
and make him guilty,
191
00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:54,534
and that's what
they're doing right now.
192
00:13:55,434 --> 00:13:58,801
We went through this... 20 years ago.
193
00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:03,234
And we're going through it now again.
194
00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:15,134
[indistinct chatter]
195
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,933
[woman] I really do think he was framed.
You know?
196
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,100
There's a lot that points
to where the Sheriff's Department
197
00:14:22,167 --> 00:14:23,967
could've had something to do with it.
198
00:14:24,033 --> 00:14:25,534
And then I don't know
if it's true or not,
199
00:14:25,601 --> 00:14:30,667
but I also heard that Manitowoc County was
not supposed to be allowed in to search
200
00:14:30,734 --> 00:14:32,834
and they were in there and they searched.
201
00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:35,601
And that's who found the key
apparently after the third day
202
00:14:35,667 --> 00:14:37,900
was the Manitowoc County
Sheriff's Department.
203
00:14:37,967 --> 00:14:41,401
So I mean, none of it, like I said,
none of it really adds up.
204
00:14:41,467 --> 00:14:44,367
[music playing on radio]
205
00:14:45,501 --> 00:14:50,933
I only have one word,
from the cops on up: corruption.
206
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,667
I mean, big time.
207
00:14:53,734 --> 00:14:56,734
I mean, if people dig far enough,
they'll see that.
208
00:14:58,801 --> 00:15:01,634
[indistinct shouting]
209
00:15:01,701 --> 00:15:02,900
[man] It wasn't supposed to do that!
210
00:15:02,967 --> 00:15:06,134
I'm up here. Why you looking?
It doesn't matter.
211
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,967
I don't care what anybody says,
that's a lot of money to pay off
212
00:15:09,033 --> 00:15:10,434
from here in Manitowoc County.
213
00:15:10,501 --> 00:15:13,868
It's a small area,
and I really, truly believe
214
00:15:13,933 --> 00:15:16,267
the county didn't
have the funds to pay it out,
215
00:15:16,334 --> 00:15:18,534
so somehow, some way...
216
00:15:18,601 --> 00:15:23,033
I don't care if they hate me... that
somehow, some way, something got set up.
217
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:24,167
I don't care who it was.
218
00:15:24,234 --> 00:15:27,000
And they can say, "Oh, you really believe
that Manitowoc Police Department
219
00:15:27,067 --> 00:15:29,601
and the FBI and everybody came in
and they set this all up
220
00:15:29,667 --> 00:15:33,868
just to have Steven Avery
guilty of this thing?" Yes, I do.
221
00:15:33,933 --> 00:15:35,734
I'm sorry. Yes, I do.
222
00:15:36,401 --> 00:15:37,967
[female reporter]
A developing story tonight.
223
00:15:38,033 --> 00:15:42,467
Steven Avery has settled his civil lawsuit
against Manitowoc County.
224
00:15:42,534 --> 00:15:46,100
[male reporter] He's only getting a tiny
fraction of the $36 million he wanted.
225
00:15:46,167 --> 00:15:51,667
"In exchange for payment, Manitowoc County
does not admit fault or liability."
226
00:15:51,734 --> 00:15:54,667
- I've had a zillion phone calls.
- [male reporter] OK. OK.
227
00:15:54,734 --> 00:15:58,134
OK, wait a minute. This is again
for the... just for the record,
228
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,501
just state your name
and spell it for me, please.
229
00:16:00,567 --> 00:16:03,834
Uh, Tom Kocourek. K-o-c-o-u-r-e-k.
230
00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:07,200
OK, and the former sheriff.
When did you work there in Manitowoc?
231
00:16:07,267 --> 00:16:09,334
I worked as sheriff for 22 years.
232
00:16:09,401 --> 00:16:13,100
I started in 1979 and went for 22 years.
233
00:16:13,167 --> 00:16:17,601
OK. Now the fact this is settled now,
I guess Manitowoc does not...
234
00:16:17,667 --> 00:16:19,434
admit any wrongdoing.
235
00:16:19,501 --> 00:16:21,601
Do you yourself,
because you were involved,
236
00:16:21,667 --> 00:16:24,234
do you feel any
sense of relief in all this?
237
00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:28,100
Well, it's just good to have it
over with and... it's a relief for...
238
00:16:28,167 --> 00:16:29,234
me and my family.
239
00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:32,367
I'm sure it's a relief
for Manitowoc County as well.
240
00:16:32,434 --> 00:16:34,100
Happy to have it over with.
241
00:16:34,167 --> 00:16:37,734
No one ever intended
to do anybody any harm by this.
242
00:16:37,801 --> 00:16:41,834
We firmly believed that we
had the guilty party at the time and...
243
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:45,200
the victim had identified him as such
and that's what we worked on.
244
00:16:45,768 --> 00:16:47,601
[Steven on phone] This way,
they figure they just got away with it,
245
00:16:47,667 --> 00:16:50,567
- they can do it again.
- Yeah.
246
00:16:50,634 --> 00:16:52,267
You know, it ain't gonna stop 'em.
247
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,634
You might say they won again.
You know?
248
00:16:59,701 --> 00:17:04,401
What is $400,000?
That ain't nothing to them.
249
00:17:07,801 --> 00:17:09,367
I had to do it.
250
00:17:10,467 --> 00:17:12,167
You know, just to get a lawyer.
251
00:17:13,601 --> 00:17:16,834
Because I wasn't gonna win
with a public defender.
252
00:17:17,701 --> 00:17:22,534
So I guess it was time to settle
and take... I guess take another loss.
253
00:17:23,134 --> 00:17:27,634
Steven was rapidly,
in the most serious of circumstances
254
00:17:27,701 --> 00:17:31,134
that any citizen could be in,
accused of murder.
255
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,033
He did not have the resources
to defend himself.
256
00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:41,667
Importantly, I think, even though he was
being charged in this current murder case,
257
00:17:41,734 --> 00:17:44,768
his civil case still had enough value
258
00:17:44,834 --> 00:17:50,200
for us to be able to settle it in a way
that he would have the funds necessary
259
00:17:50,267 --> 00:17:52,534
to defend himself in the criminal case.
260
00:17:52,601 --> 00:17:56,667
The consequences of that settlement to...
261
00:17:57,734 --> 00:17:58,768
the system...
262
00:17:58,834 --> 00:18:02,701
which are really, in my book,
263
00:18:02,768 --> 00:18:06,434
equally important
to the financial side of it,
264
00:18:06,501 --> 00:18:10,334
are horrendous, OK?
265
00:18:10,401 --> 00:18:15,434
They're horrendous in the sense
that nobody is being held responsible
266
00:18:15,501 --> 00:18:17,933
for what happened to Steven Avery.
267
00:18:38,868 --> 00:18:41,000
It might get him out, what he's got.
268
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,567
Hoping.
269
00:18:50,534 --> 00:18:52,734
- [recorded voice] Collect call from...
- [Steven] Steven Avery.
270
00:18:52,801 --> 00:18:55,434
[recorded voice] ...an inmate
at the Calumet County jail.
271
00:18:55,501 --> 00:18:57,100
- [Steven] Hello?
- [Glynn] Hey, Steve.
272
00:18:57,167 --> 00:18:59,567
- [Steven] Oh, hi. All right.
- [Glynn] How are ya? Good.
273
00:18:59,634 --> 00:19:02,567
I just thought I'd touch base with you
on a couple of things,
274
00:19:02,634 --> 00:19:05,567
just to make sure that
you weren't feeling abandoned out there.
275
00:19:05,634 --> 00:19:07,267
- [Steven laughs] Yeah.
- [Glynn] You know.
276
00:19:07,334 --> 00:19:09,567
I didn't want that to be happening.
277
00:19:09,634 --> 00:19:13,067
And I've been talking
to a number of lawyers
278
00:19:13,134 --> 00:19:18,768
and the guy that I could put
at the top of my list is Dean Strang.
279
00:19:18,834 --> 00:19:21,501
- [Steven] Yeah?
- [Glynn] He's my ex-partner,
280
00:19:21,567 --> 00:19:25,234
and the thing that put him
at the top of the list for me
281
00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:29,834
is that I know that
a lot of the Manitowoc cops are...
282
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:31,701
well, I don't want to say "afraid of him,"
283
00:19:31,768 --> 00:19:36,467
but they know him
and they respect him as a lawyer,
284
00:19:36,534 --> 00:19:40,200
and I think that gives him
a little bit of an edge.
285
00:19:40,267 --> 00:19:43,967
Now the other guy
that I have been thinking about
286
00:19:44,033 --> 00:19:46,734
is a lawyer named Jerry Buting.
287
00:19:46,801 --> 00:19:52,167
He's had a number of high-notoriety cases,
and if it will turn out that,
288
00:19:52,234 --> 00:19:55,200
you know, that they'd be willing
to work together on the case,
289
00:19:55,267 --> 00:19:56,701
that would be phenomenal.
290
00:19:56,768 --> 00:19:58,701
- [Steven] All right, Steve.
- [Glynn] OK, man. Hang in there.
291
00:19:58,768 --> 00:19:59,933
[Steven] All right. Thanks a lot.
292
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,033
- OK. Bye-bye.
- [Glynn] Bye-bye.
293
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:09,467
I want to cover our...
294
00:20:09,534 --> 00:20:11,900
Where was Barb's car for sale?
295
00:20:11,967 --> 00:20:14,200
Where would Teresa have parked?
296
00:20:14,267 --> 00:20:16,134
Where did they find her car?
297
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,334
What are the ways in?
298
00:20:18,401 --> 00:20:19,900
Let's do it.
299
00:20:22,033 --> 00:20:25,567
I didn't see them plant evidence
with my own two eyes.
300
00:20:25,634 --> 00:20:26,834
I didn't see it.
301
00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:31,067
But do I understand how human beings
might be tempted to plant evidence
302
00:20:31,134 --> 00:20:34,067
under the circumstances in which the
Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department
303
00:20:34,134 --> 00:20:37,401
found itself after Steven's exoneration,
of the lawsuit,
304
00:20:37,467 --> 00:20:40,900
of the Avery Commission,
of the governor hugging Steven
305
00:20:40,967 --> 00:20:45,401
and holding him up as an example
of the criminal justice system gone wrong?
306
00:20:45,467 --> 00:20:49,234
Do I have any difficulty
understanding what human emotions
307
00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:56,200
might have driven police officers to want
to augment or confirm their beliefs
308
00:20:56,267 --> 00:20:58,367
that he must have killed Teresa Halbach?
309
00:20:58,434 --> 00:21:02,234
I don't have any difficulty understanding
those human emotions at all.
310
00:21:03,868 --> 00:21:06,834
[Chuck] The car was right in the...
in the roadway here.
311
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:11,534
Is this little roadway... is this used
much? Do you know? I mean, do they...?
312
00:21:11,601 --> 00:21:13,167
Not that often.
313
00:21:13,234 --> 00:21:15,100
- All right.
- OK.
314
00:21:15,834 --> 00:21:20,267
So you've got motivation
for the officers to want to get him.
315
00:21:20,334 --> 00:21:23,801
And then when lo and behold
there's this woman who disappears
316
00:21:23,868 --> 00:21:28,267
and one of the last people she saw
was Steven Avery... now we've got him.
317
00:21:28,334 --> 00:21:30,768
A-ha! We knew it.
318
00:21:30,834 --> 00:21:33,434
They conclude that he's guilty
right off the bat.
319
00:21:33,501 --> 00:21:35,300
This was all the way open...
320
00:21:35,367 --> 00:21:39,768
And they thought, "We're gonna
make sure he's convicted."
321
00:21:39,834 --> 00:21:44,534
And they helped it along
by planting his blood in the RAV4
322
00:21:44,601 --> 00:21:47,801
and by planting that key
in his bedroom.
323
00:21:47,868 --> 00:21:51,000
[Chuck] See,
I was going up north on Friday
324
00:21:51,067 --> 00:21:54,868
and I saw headlights
when I was about,
325
00:21:54,933 --> 00:21:58,234
well, maybe a quarter
or halfway down our driveway.
326
00:21:58,300 --> 00:22:01,067
[Strang] You saw headlights
on that road down there?
327
00:22:01,134 --> 00:22:04,734
Yeah, that's what I told the detectives
too and stuff, the investigators.
328
00:22:04,801 --> 00:22:06,367
OK.
329
00:22:06,434 --> 00:22:08,933
And he thought I was full of shit.
330
00:22:14,768 --> 00:22:17,634
[Steven on phone]
<i>I got a better chance now.</i>
331
00:22:19,334 --> 00:22:23,134
<i>I got lawyers.
The best ones in Wisconsin, both of them.</i>
332
00:22:24,134 --> 00:22:25,768
<i>And they know what they're doing.</i>
333
00:22:26,567 --> 00:22:29,801
<i>There's so many ways they can go
that prove my innocence.</i>
334
00:22:32,134 --> 00:22:34,467
<i>I just hope the truth
comes out on this,</i>
335
00:22:34,534 --> 00:22:36,701
<i>so we can find out who did it.</i>
336
00:22:36,768 --> 00:22:39,267
<i>You know, and if it's the cops...</i>
337
00:22:40,267 --> 00:22:42,601
<i>I don't know if we'll ever
find that out or not.</i>
338
00:22:43,933 --> 00:22:46,167
<i>See, that's the only thing that scares me.</i>
339
00:22:49,534 --> 00:22:52,434
Some of the evidence,
DNA evidence at the scene,
340
00:22:52,501 --> 00:22:57,000
it's impossible for us
to have that type of evidence.
341
00:22:57,067 --> 00:22:59,501
You know, to plant that... It's just...
342
00:23:00,701 --> 00:23:03,033
it's not realistic.
343
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:06,567
Very... It's impossible. Never... It's...
344
00:23:07,367 --> 00:23:09,801
not even... How should I say...
345
00:23:09,868 --> 00:23:13,067
I'm thinking of a word, but it's just...
346
00:23:13,134 --> 00:23:17,267
It's so far-fetched, it's impractical.
So...
347
00:23:19,534 --> 00:23:21,768
[indistinct chatter]
348
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,834
OK, we'll begin. Um...
349
00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:44,900
Late this afternoon,
a 16-year-old juvenile male
350
00:23:44,967 --> 00:23:49,367
who was a relative of Steven Avery
was taken into custody,
351
00:23:49,434 --> 00:23:54,501
and he is currently being detained
at a juvenile facility.
352
00:23:54,567 --> 00:24:00,033
The 16-year-old juvenile
admitted his involvement
353
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:02,634
in the death of Teresa Halbach,
354
00:24:02,701 --> 00:24:08,300
as well as Steven Avery's
involvement in this matter.
355
00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:13,667
Sheriff Pagel and I will be releasing
to the media
356
00:24:13,734 --> 00:24:16,167
the specifics of this case.
357
00:24:16,234 --> 00:24:21,033
I will be filing, as I mentioned,
a criminal complaint tomorrow,
358
00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:25,334
and by 2:00 p.m. that will be available
for release to all of you.
359
00:24:25,401 --> 00:24:27,334
[female reporter] Mr. Kratz,
can you tell us,
360
00:24:27,401 --> 00:24:30,067
because of what's happened
with the 16-year-old,
361
00:24:30,134 --> 00:24:33,434
might the charges that exist now
against Steven Avery change
362
00:24:33,501 --> 00:24:36,933
or become less,
like he had less of a role?
363
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,334
- No.
- No.
364
00:24:39,401 --> 00:24:41,868
[female reporter] Are the buildings
you're searching today buildings
365
00:24:41,933 --> 00:24:43,734
- that you've already searched?
- Yes.
366
00:24:43,801 --> 00:24:44,801
I know you've searched Mr. Avery's...
367
00:24:44,868 --> 00:24:50,234
We have done extensive searches
of every building on that property.
368
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:56,434
With the degree of specificity
that we'd received this week,
369
00:24:56,501 --> 00:25:01,033
knowing exactly what to look for
and exactly where to look for it,
370
00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:03,868
led to the issuance
of today's search warrant.
371
00:25:10,401 --> 00:25:13,601
[female reporter] A major break in this
case tonight as authorities plan to charge
372
00:25:13,667 --> 00:25:15,167
that 16-year-old boy.
373
00:25:15,234 --> 00:25:18,933
Tonight, we did speak
with the mother of this 16-year-old.
374
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,701
This is what she had to say.
375
00:25:20,768 --> 00:25:24,768
Steven, I know you're gonna
be watching this, but you know,
376
00:25:24,834 --> 00:25:28,801
I hate you for what you did to my kid.
377
00:25:28,868 --> 00:25:31,834
All right?
So you can rot in hell.
378
00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:35,167
Now another press conference
will be held at 2:00 p.m. tomorrow.
379
00:25:35,234 --> 00:25:38,401
At that time, this teen will be charged,
and more details,
380
00:25:38,467 --> 00:25:42,100
including details of Teresa's death,
are expected to be released at that time.
381
00:25:42,167 --> 00:25:43,868
- Tom?
- Oh, boy, what a story.
382
00:25:55,267 --> 00:25:59,067
[Kratz] I know that there are some news
outlets that are carrying this live,
383
00:25:59,134 --> 00:26:02,033
and perhaps there may be some children
that are watching this.
384
00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:05,200
I'm gonna ask that
if you're under the age of 15,
385
00:26:05,267 --> 00:26:07,933
that you discontinue watching
this press conference.
386
00:26:12,801 --> 00:26:15,801
We have now determined what occurred
387
00:26:15,868 --> 00:26:21,334
sometime between 3:45 p.m.
and 10:00 or 11:00 p.m.
388
00:26:21,401 --> 00:26:23,834
on the 31st of October.
389
00:26:23,868 --> 00:26:30,000
Sixteen-year-old Brendan Dassey, who lives
next door to Steven Avery in a trailer,
390
00:26:30,067 --> 00:26:34,401
returned home on the bus
from school about 3:45 p.m.
391
00:26:34,467 --> 00:26:37,834
He retrieved the mail
and noticed one of the letters
392
00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:40,701
was for his uncle, Steven Avery.
393
00:26:40,768 --> 00:26:43,100
As Brendan approaches the trailer,
394
00:26:43,167 --> 00:26:47,167
as he actually gets several hundred feet
away from the trailer,
395
00:26:47,234 --> 00:26:50,801
a long, long way from the trailer,
396
00:26:50,868 --> 00:26:53,534
Brendan already starts
to hear the screams.
397
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,834
As Brendan approaches the trailer,
he hears louder screams for help,
398
00:26:58,967 --> 00:27:01,933
recognizes it to be of a female individual
399
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,967
and he knocks on Steven Avery's
trailer door.
400
00:27:05,033 --> 00:27:07,900
Brendan says that he knocks
at least three times
401
00:27:07,967 --> 00:27:12,667
and has to wait until
the person he knows as his uncle,
402
00:27:12,734 --> 00:27:17,167
who is partially dressed,
who is full of sweat...
403
00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:22,634
opens the door and greets
his 16-year-old nephew.
404
00:27:23,401 --> 00:27:28,900
Brendan accompanies
his sweaty 43-year-old uncle
405
00:27:28,967 --> 00:27:33,067
down the hallway
to Steven Avery's bedroom.
406
00:27:33,801 --> 00:27:37,801
And there they find Teresa Halbach
completely naked
407
00:27:37,868 --> 00:27:40,601
and shackled to the bed.
408
00:27:40,667 --> 00:27:45,234
Teresa Halbach is begging Brendan
for her life.
409
00:27:48,534 --> 00:27:50,868
The evidence that we've uncovered...
410
00:27:52,667 --> 00:27:56,467
establishes that Steven Avery
at this point
411
00:27:56,534 --> 00:28:00,167
invites his 16-year-old nephew
to sexually assault this woman
412
00:28:00,234 --> 00:28:02,501
that he has had bound to the bed.
413
00:28:02,567 --> 00:28:06,801
During the rape,
Teresa's begging for help,
414
00:28:06,868 --> 00:28:10,167
begging 16-year-old Brendan to stop,
that "you can stop this."
415
00:28:11,467 --> 00:28:14,801
Sixteen-year-old Brendan,
under the instruction of Steven Avery...
416
00:28:15,768 --> 00:28:22,467
cuts Teresa Halbach's throat...
but she still doesn't die.
417
00:28:22,534 --> 00:28:25,734
[male reporter] The horrible picture
of how Teresa Halbach died,
418
00:28:25,801 --> 00:28:27,834
painted by a 16-year-old boy
419
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:30,834
who couldn't keep
his terrible secret any longer.
420
00:28:31,768 --> 00:28:34,300
Investigators from here at
the Calumet County Sheriff's Department
421
00:28:34,367 --> 00:28:36,000
and from the Wisconsin
Department of Justice
422
00:28:36,067 --> 00:28:38,067
interviewed Brendan Dassey
twice this week.
423
00:28:38,134 --> 00:28:43,300
They used his statements like instructions
to put together pieces of a sick puzzle.
424
00:28:43,367 --> 00:28:46,033
According to this complaint,
Dassey and Avery are accused
425
00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:50,401
of choking Teresa Halbach and then
dragging her lifeless body outside,
426
00:28:50,467 --> 00:28:54,367
throwing her in the burn pit and shooting
her in the head and in the stomach.
427
00:28:54,434 --> 00:28:57,100
Today's development
certainly on the minds of many.
428
00:28:57,167 --> 00:29:00,067
Here is what some people
in the Fox Valley had to say.
429
00:29:00,134 --> 00:29:04,900
I'm a little surprised by the age of him,
but I wasn't... wasn't surprised
430
00:29:04,967 --> 00:29:06,334
there was somebody else involved.
431
00:29:06,401 --> 00:29:08,134
I think he did help him out.
432
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,067
I don't think he was the master behind it,
but I think he helped him out.
433
00:29:12,134 --> 00:29:15,734
You know, I believed him at first and now
it's the other way around, you know.
434
00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:31,067
[indistinct dialogue]
435
00:30:11,768 --> 00:30:13,834
[man clears throat]
436
00:30:38,467 --> 00:30:41,734
[Kratz] Although the defendant
is 16 years of age,
437
00:30:41,801 --> 00:30:45,033
there is original
adult court jurisdiction
438
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:49,868
and therefore the same bond
considerations apply to Mr. Dassey
439
00:30:49,933 --> 00:30:52,467
as would any other defendant.
440
00:30:52,534 --> 00:30:57,567
Those in this case include the potential
penalty that Mr. Dassey faces,
441
00:30:57,634 --> 00:31:02,167
which includes life imprisonment,
as well as the character and strength
442
00:31:02,234 --> 00:31:06,434
of the evidence presented, which
includes not only physical evidence
443
00:31:06,501 --> 00:31:10,067
but inculpatory statements
being made by Mr. Dassey.
444
00:31:10,134 --> 00:31:12,701
Given those factors, Your Honor,
445
00:31:12,768 --> 00:31:18,501
the state is going to request cash bail
in the amount of $250,000.
446
00:31:18,567 --> 00:31:19,601
[Judge Fox] Mr. Sczygelski.
447
00:31:19,667 --> 00:31:21,367
[Sczygelski] Your Honor,
this court I'm sure is well aware
448
00:31:21,434 --> 00:31:22,933
my client is a juvenile.
449
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,701
He is a sophomore at Mishicot High School.
450
00:31:25,768 --> 00:31:28,033
He has never been in trouble
in high school as far as I know,
451
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:31,000
or any type of school.
He has no juvenile record whatsoever,
452
00:31:31,067 --> 00:31:32,768
certainly no criminal record.
453
00:31:32,834 --> 00:31:35,100
He has indicated in his statement
to the authorities
454
00:31:35,167 --> 00:31:38,933
that this was a result in large part
of being threatened by Mr. Avery,
455
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,601
that this was something
that was not done willingly by him.
456
00:31:41,667 --> 00:31:45,467
In sum, Your Honor, this is a case
that involves a young man
457
00:31:45,534 --> 00:31:48,167
who himself has been victimized
by Mr. Avery.
458
00:31:48,234 --> 00:31:49,900
Based upon those circumstances,
Your Honor,
459
00:31:49,967 --> 00:31:53,900
I think a $250,000 cash bail is excessive.
460
00:31:55,167 --> 00:31:59,267
[Mike Halbach] He admitted his guilt and
he said that Avery was involved as well,
461
00:31:59,334 --> 00:32:02,367
so I take that as truth.
462
00:32:02,434 --> 00:32:06,801
And that's something I haven't seen
in this case quite yet.
463
00:32:06,868 --> 00:32:09,267
Especially in Steven Avery's case.
464
00:32:10,601 --> 00:32:13,134
The Wisconsin Innocence Project
is distancing itself
465
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,134
from one of its best-known cases.
466
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,401
Today that group removed Steven Avery's
picture from its website.
467
00:32:18,467 --> 00:32:22,601
Until today, Avery's photo was included
with three other wrongful convictions
468
00:32:22,667 --> 00:32:24,200
uncovered by the group.
469
00:32:24,267 --> 00:32:27,734
Now finally, late this afternoon,
Dassey's attorney told me over the phone
470
00:32:27,801 --> 00:32:30,200
he does plan to remove himself
from the case.
471
00:32:30,267 --> 00:32:34,134
Turns out, he's actually
a distant relative of Teresa Halbach.
472
00:32:35,634 --> 00:32:38,467
[phone line ringing]
473
00:32:38,534 --> 00:32:39,634
[Barb] Hello?
474
00:32:39,701 --> 00:32:43,534
[recorded voice] This is a collect call
from an inmate at the Calumet County jail.
475
00:32:43,601 --> 00:32:46,768
To accept this call, dial five now.
476
00:32:46,834 --> 00:32:48,634
- [Steven] Yeah?
- [Barb] Yeah?
477
00:32:48,701 --> 00:32:51,567
- [Steven] What?
- [Barb] You got $100,000 for me?
478
00:32:51,634 --> 00:32:53,868
- [Steven] Where am I gonna get it from?
- [Barb] What do you mean?
479
00:32:53,933 --> 00:32:57,900
- [Steven] What's the $100,000 for?
- [Barb] An attorney for my son.
480
00:32:57,967 --> 00:32:59,434
[Steven] He's got an attorney.
481
00:32:59,501 --> 00:33:02,200
- [Barb] Well, I just lost him, OK?
- [Steven] How?
482
00:33:02,267 --> 00:33:06,434
[Barb] What do you mean "how"?
Because he's second cousins with Halbach.
483
00:33:06,501 --> 00:33:07,933
[Steven] How can I help?
484
00:33:09,067 --> 00:33:12,267
[Barb] Well, he sure the fuck
didn't do it by himself.
485
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,100
[Steven] Well, I certainly didn't do it.
486
00:33:15,167 --> 00:33:17,334
[Barb] Where did Brendan
get all this shit from?
487
00:33:17,401 --> 00:33:23,367
He's going down for something
that he would've never ever fucking did.
488
00:33:23,434 --> 00:33:25,033
[Steven] Oh, what about me?
489
00:33:26,567 --> 00:33:28,768
[Barb] Why would he say this
about you then?
490
00:33:29,534 --> 00:33:31,033
You tell me.
491
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:33,467
He was over by you that night.
492
00:33:33,534 --> 00:33:35,801
[Steven] That night he came over,
493
00:33:35,868 --> 00:33:39,367
we had the bonfire
and he was home by 9:00,
494
00:33:39,434 --> 00:33:42,567
'cause Jodi called me at 9:00,
and I was in the house already.
495
00:33:42,634 --> 00:33:46,067
[Barb] So you're telling me
when he got off the bus,
496
00:33:46,134 --> 00:33:49,933
he didn't come over by you
with an envelope from out of my mailbox?
497
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,834
[Steven] No, he did not.
498
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:54,167
[Barb] Then what the fuck
are they trying to do?
499
00:33:54,234 --> 00:33:55,634
[Steven] You'd have to ask him.
500
00:33:56,334 --> 00:33:58,334
[Barb] So my son's gonna go to prison?
501
00:33:59,734 --> 00:34:01,734
[Steven] Well, I don't know.
502
00:34:01,801 --> 00:34:04,667
[Barb] What do you mean, you don't know?
Yes, he is gonna.
503
00:34:04,734 --> 00:34:08,868
Life in prison he's gonna get.
And he's only 16.
504
00:34:08,933 --> 00:34:11,167
[Steven] It ain't my fault. Is it?
505
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:14,467
It ain't my fault at all.
506
00:34:15,267 --> 00:34:18,000
Just by his statement right there,
he's got life.
507
00:34:18,067 --> 00:34:19,967
And there ain't nothing
I can do with that.
508
00:34:22,134 --> 00:34:24,334
Why would he admit to something?
509
00:34:24,401 --> 00:34:26,701
[Barb] How do I know?
510
00:34:26,768 --> 00:34:28,300
[Steven] Well,
that's what you gotta figure out.
511
00:34:28,367 --> 00:34:31,734
[Barb] How am I supposed to figure that
out when he's in there and I'm out here?
512
00:34:31,801 --> 00:34:34,801
[Steven] Well,
you go see him and you talk to him
513
00:34:34,868 --> 00:34:36,267
and tell him to be straight with you.
514
00:34:36,334 --> 00:34:39,334
Where'd he get this from?
You know?
515
00:34:39,401 --> 00:34:43,067
Ask questions.
Because it didn't happen over by me.
516
00:34:43,134 --> 00:34:45,768
[Barb] Well,
it didn't happen by me either.
517
00:34:45,834 --> 00:34:48,234
[Steven] Well,
then it happened somewhere else.
518
00:34:50,267 --> 00:34:52,601
Well, just see what you can do
and if nothing else,
519
00:34:52,667 --> 00:34:54,801
if you want me to call you, let Ma know.
520
00:34:54,868 --> 00:34:57,167
- [Barb] Yeah, OK, then.
- [Steven] All right, then.
521
00:34:57,234 --> 00:34:58,501
- [Barb] All right.
- [Steven] I love you.
522
00:34:58,567 --> 00:35:00,367
- [Barb] Yeah.
- [Steven] OK, then.
523
00:35:00,434 --> 00:35:02,134
- [Barb] Bye.
- [Steven] Bye.
524
00:35:24,467 --> 00:35:29,267
When I first read the report,
I was mad and disgusted.
525
00:35:30,567 --> 00:35:35,367
But then hearing from Brendan last night,
I just changed my whole attitude.
526
00:35:37,367 --> 00:35:39,834
I mean, I believe in my son,
527
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:45,900
and I believe he's telling the truth
when he told his first statement.
528
00:35:47,367 --> 00:35:52,267
And that they interrogated him
and made him say what they wanted to hear.
529
00:36:12,067 --> 00:36:13,900
[buzzer sounds]
530
00:36:15,868 --> 00:36:18,167
I came to pick up Jodi.
531
00:36:24,933 --> 00:36:27,067
[door opens]
532
00:36:34,534 --> 00:36:37,000
- Did you hear me on that talker thing?
- No.
533
00:36:37,067 --> 00:36:38,234
I don't know.
534
00:37:07,967 --> 00:37:11,200
Huh! [sighs]
535
00:37:15,667 --> 00:37:19,434
They made a mess, didn't they?
Holy shit.
536
00:37:22,067 --> 00:37:25,868
Oh, my God. [sighs]
537
00:37:35,667 --> 00:37:39,434
You know, I wouldn't even know
where to look for my purse.
538
00:37:40,401 --> 00:37:42,267
'Cause it was on the bed.
539
00:37:54,167 --> 00:37:57,501
Eh... What a mess.
540
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,768
I can't believe they took my purse.
541
00:38:04,267 --> 00:38:07,601
It's a good thing I have my ID.
Otherwise, I couldn't go see him.
542
00:38:07,667 --> 00:38:09,134
[laughs]
543
00:38:22,234 --> 00:38:24,734
[receptionist]
Are you here to see Mr. Avery?
544
00:38:38,167 --> 00:38:40,967
[female reporter] Jodi, how are you
feeling going in to see Steven?
545
00:38:41,033 --> 00:38:43,134
- Fine.
- What are you gonna say to him?
546
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:44,734
This is the first time
you've seen him or...
547
00:38:44,801 --> 00:38:46,300
Yes.
548
00:38:46,367 --> 00:38:48,634
I really don't want to talk.
549
00:38:52,834 --> 00:38:55,467
Is there anything you'd like us to say?
550
00:38:55,534 --> 00:38:56,567
No.
551
00:38:57,367 --> 00:39:00,033
Can we give you questions for him?
552
00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:01,334
No.
553
00:39:02,267 --> 00:39:03,501
So you've been in jail how long?
554
00:39:03,567 --> 00:39:06,067
This is the first time
you've seen him in how long?
555
00:39:08,667 --> 00:39:11,534
What do you think about
the charges he's facing?
556
00:39:16,334 --> 00:39:19,100
Is there a reason
that you don't want to say anything or...?
557
00:39:36,367 --> 00:39:41,367
[Judge Willis] This is no longer purely
a circumstantial evidence case
558
00:39:41,434 --> 00:39:45,234
based on the new allegations
made by the state.
559
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:47,167
And the court
would have to characterize
560
00:39:47,234 --> 00:39:51,834
the strength of the evidence at this point
is greater than it had been in the past.
561
00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:55,167
Things did not go well for Steven Avery
here in court this afternoon.
562
00:39:55,234 --> 00:39:57,601
The judge allowed
Special Prosecutor Ken Kratz
563
00:39:57,667 --> 00:40:00,267
to add three new charges against Avery:
564
00:40:00,334 --> 00:40:03,701
sexual assault,
false imprisonment and kidnapping,
565
00:40:03,768 --> 00:40:07,134
based on statements made
by Avery's nephew, Brendan Dassey.
566
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,868
Another blow to the defense:
the judge will not allow Avery's parents
567
00:40:10,933 --> 00:40:13,667
to post property as part of Steven's bond.
568
00:40:13,734 --> 00:40:17,200
Now the judge not only denied
the property request for bail,
569
00:40:17,267 --> 00:40:21,900
he increased it from
a half million dollars to $750,000.
570
00:40:21,967 --> 00:40:24,567
[Strang] The court knows, I know.
571
00:40:24,634 --> 00:40:28,501
Perhaps some in the public
or some in the media
572
00:40:28,567 --> 00:40:32,033
even have forgotten that he's innocent.
573
00:40:32,868 --> 00:40:36,868
As he sits here today,
he is legally presumed innocent.
574
00:40:36,933 --> 00:40:40,234
I mean, we can dress him up
in something that makes him look like
575
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:42,834
he jumped off a Monopoly
game board or something.
576
00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:45,768
He's a "get out of jail free" card
come to life.
577
00:40:45,834 --> 00:40:47,300
But he's innocent.
578
00:40:48,501 --> 00:40:50,868
I've always been taught
not to judge a book by its cover,
579
00:40:50,933 --> 00:40:54,868
and, uh, knowing what I know
about Steven Avery, um,
580
00:40:54,933 --> 00:40:57,200
what's between the covers isn't very good.
581
00:40:57,267 --> 00:41:00,967
So regardless of what he's wearing,
it doesn't make any difference.
582
00:41:01,033 --> 00:41:04,033
He's, you know,
still the same person, so...
583
00:41:04,100 --> 00:41:05,801
And I think the public knows that.
584
00:41:07,868 --> 00:41:11,967
[Steven on phone]<i> There ain't no reason</i>
<i>why he couldn't take the property bond.</i>
585
00:41:12,033 --> 00:41:16,067
<i>That's just like... I'm gonna run
and put my family out on the street.</i>
586
00:41:18,667 --> 00:41:20,401
<i>I'm not gonna do that.</i>
587
00:41:21,467 --> 00:41:24,033
<i>That's ridiculous.
They just don't want me out.</i>
588
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:27,467
<i>You know,
they got me looking like an animal.</i>
589
00:41:27,534 --> 00:41:29,234
<i>And they think that I'm gonna run.</i>
590
00:41:31,167 --> 00:41:33,234
<i>Innocent people don't run.</i>
591
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:35,768
[loud banging]
592
00:41:54,868 --> 00:41:59,267
[Chuck] I'm pretty positive
in my head right now, in my mind...
593
00:41:59,334 --> 00:42:01,334
that he did do it.
594
00:42:02,567 --> 00:42:07,167
But, um,
I don't see what made him do that.
595
00:42:10,601 --> 00:42:12,100
I don't know. I...
596
00:42:13,534 --> 00:42:16,467
Maybe as well with
the 18 years he spent in prison,
597
00:42:16,534 --> 00:42:23,501
maybe he got... stuff like other inmates
did and everything else and that...
598
00:42:23,567 --> 00:42:25,267
I don't know.
599
00:42:25,334 --> 00:42:29,234
Only them two know
what went on that night.
600
00:42:58,667 --> 00:43:01,401
[Barb] She don't offer to come up
to see her grandson,
601
00:43:01,467 --> 00:43:03,401
and she doesn't talk to me.
602
00:43:09,834 --> 00:43:11,967
Honestly, I think they disowned me.
603
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,933
[Dolores] I went through it
more than she did, really.
604
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,534
I spent a lot of sleepless nights.
605
00:43:27,601 --> 00:43:29,000
Lot of crying.
606
00:43:29,734 --> 00:43:31,834
Now I gotta start it all over again.
607
00:43:40,434 --> 00:43:43,367
They got our family all tore right apart.
608
00:43:45,367 --> 00:43:47,100
It's not right.
609
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:53,900
Got my wife tore apart.
610
00:44:01,501 --> 00:44:03,567
She'll never be the same.
611
00:44:05,067 --> 00:44:07,000
Never be the same.
612
00:44:12,601 --> 00:44:16,134
[Steven sobbing on phone]
613
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,000
Talk to me.
614
00:44:18,067 --> 00:44:19,067
[Steven] I miss you.
615
00:44:19,134 --> 00:44:22,667
- I miss you, too.
- [Steven sniffles]
616
00:44:22,734 --> 00:44:25,200
- What's the matter?
- Hm?
617
00:44:25,267 --> 00:44:27,234
What's the matter?
618
00:44:28,534 --> 00:44:30,167
I don't know.
619
00:44:30,234 --> 00:44:34,401
Depends if I get out or not.
If I don't... I don't know.
620
00:44:37,267 --> 00:44:38,900
You gotta have faith.
621
00:44:42,334 --> 00:44:43,534
It's driving me up the wall.
622
00:44:43,601 --> 00:44:44,900
I know.
623
00:44:47,900 --> 00:44:50,801
You know,
especially when I can't talk to you.
624
00:44:50,868 --> 00:44:52,134
I know.
625
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,734
[Steven] You know, all I want to do now,
is get this all over with and move.
626
00:44:56,801 --> 00:44:57,667
[Jodi] Yeah.
627
00:44:57,734 --> 00:44:59,067
[Steven] Me and you.
628
00:44:59,834 --> 00:45:03,701
And hopefully we can get your kid
and be a family.
629
00:45:03,768 --> 00:45:06,200
[Jodi] Well, let's just concentrate
on you first.
630
00:45:06,267 --> 00:45:08,434
[Steven] Yeah. But I'd like it all.
631
00:45:08,501 --> 00:45:12,234
- [Jodi] I know.
- [Steven clears throat]
632
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:14,634
[Steven] I knew I should never
have moved to Manitowoc.
633
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:17,634
But then I wouldn't have met you.
634
00:45:17,701 --> 00:45:20,601
You're the only person I want
in this whole world.
635
00:45:20,667 --> 00:45:22,200
- OK.
- Huh?
636
00:45:22,267 --> 00:45:23,234
OK.
637
00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:24,933
- OK?
- OK.
638
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,033
- That's all?
- Well, me too.
639
00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:28,467
[both laugh]
640
00:45:30,367 --> 00:45:32,734
I tell you that all the time, though.
641
00:45:32,801 --> 00:45:34,134
Yeah.
642
00:45:35,834 --> 00:45:36,967
I'd like to hear it more.
643
00:45:37,033 --> 00:45:39,534
Yeah? OK.
644
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,601
If you look at this case, if, uh...
Mr. Avery is convicted of it,
645
00:45:45,667 --> 00:45:48,134
I guess, you know,
you can look at the other side of that
646
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,067
where if he wouldn't have been released,
we'd, you know...
647
00:45:52,134 --> 00:45:55,200
Miss Halbach would still
most likely be here.
648
00:45:55,267 --> 00:45:57,701
And then you start thinking to yourself,
649
00:45:57,768 --> 00:46:00,667
"Boy, maybe it was good
he was in all that time."
650
00:46:01,534 --> 00:46:05,467
As unjust as it was, if he did this,
what might he have done during that time?
651
00:46:05,534 --> 00:46:07,334
And you just start questioning
the whole system.
652
00:46:07,401 --> 00:46:09,601
You can't put people in prison
653
00:46:09,667 --> 00:46:13,334
because you think someday they might
do something wrong. Or even horrible.
654
00:46:13,401 --> 00:46:15,601
Or heinous. You know?
655
00:46:15,667 --> 00:46:19,601
Um, but you still have these
conflicting thoughts and feelings.
656
00:46:19,667 --> 00:46:22,933
To me, if Steven did this,
and I don't know,
657
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:24,933
it doesn't seem like...
658
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,300
It seems a little too sophisticated
for the Steven I knew. Um...
659
00:46:29,367 --> 00:46:36,234
Boy, it seems to me that what happened
all those years has a lot to do with it.
660
00:46:36,300 --> 00:46:37,734
Because it would've...
661
00:46:37,801 --> 00:46:41,667
It developed him into somebody else
that he wasn't when he started.
662
00:46:41,734 --> 00:46:45,567
Even if he did have anger
for being in prison all this time,
663
00:46:45,634 --> 00:46:48,501
anybody would have anger. I'd have anger.
664
00:46:49,701 --> 00:46:52,768
I mean, I would be hell mad.
665
00:46:54,033 --> 00:46:56,834
But that doesn't mean
I'd go around and kill somebody.
666
00:46:58,234 --> 00:47:01,634
You know,
I'd sue just like he was doing. Suing.
667
00:47:07,701 --> 00:47:10,134
[Jodi] Two weeks
before I was released from jail,
668
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:15,167
investigators were gonna
bring in pictures to show me
669
00:47:15,234 --> 00:47:19,234
of Teresa's body and how it was burnt,
670
00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:23,200
and there was still muscle tissues
on the bones.
671
00:47:23,267 --> 00:47:29,267
There was a lot of pressure they were
putting on me to turn against Steven.
672
00:47:29,334 --> 00:47:31,234
[Wiegert] I've been
doing this job a long time.
673
00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:34,634
I've met a lot of interesting people,
a lot of people that are similar to Steve.
674
00:47:34,701 --> 00:47:39,200
But I've never met somebody
as cold-blooded... as him.
675
00:47:40,933 --> 00:47:43,667
To think what he did to that girl.
Sit and think about that for a minute.
676
00:47:43,734 --> 00:47:46,701
- Think about her family.
- Oh, I do all the time.
677
00:47:46,768 --> 00:47:48,367
Well, I hope you do.
678
00:47:48,434 --> 00:47:52,134
Because by sticking up for him,
what does that make you look like?
679
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,200
- Well, I know, but... I just...
- He killed her.
680
00:47:55,267 --> 00:47:56,801
He killed her.
681
00:47:56,868 --> 00:47:59,501
He's the only one
who sees her in that time frame.
682
00:47:59,567 --> 00:48:01,200
He's the last one to see her.
683
00:48:01,267 --> 00:48:04,200
Think about that. She just disappears?
684
00:48:05,401 --> 00:48:07,701
Yeah, she disappears
because he killed her.
685
00:48:09,534 --> 00:48:12,768
That's the kind of person you want
to spend the rest of your life with?
686
00:48:15,601 --> 00:48:17,534
[Barb] When Jodi was in jail,
687
00:48:17,601 --> 00:48:22,100
she put a request in
not to talk to the investigators anymore.
688
00:48:22,167 --> 00:48:23,634
Meaning Mark and Tom.
689
00:48:26,033 --> 00:48:28,801
And three days later,
they went after Brendan.
690
00:48:28,868 --> 00:48:30,200
[Fassbender] Let's see it.
691
00:48:30,267 --> 00:48:32,467
[Wiegert] Why don't you
just have a seat, Brendan?
692
00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:37,367
Tom and I just gotta step out for
a minute and then we'll be right in, OK?
693
00:48:37,434 --> 00:48:38,834
- OK.
- All right.
694
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,234
[Buting] They'd been working
for about four months
695
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:52,000
trying to build a case
against Steven Avery
696
00:48:52,067 --> 00:48:57,334
and there were still a fair number
of people out there who said,
697
00:48:57,401 --> 00:49:00,768
"I'm not convinced.
I think Steven Avery might be innocent.
698
00:49:00,834 --> 00:49:03,967
You know, there may be more
to what he says than that."
699
00:49:04,033 --> 00:49:08,000
And one of the things
that helped support Avery at that time
700
00:49:08,067 --> 00:49:12,300
was that Brendan Dassey
was Steve's alibi.
701
00:49:12,367 --> 00:49:16,634
[Barb] They knew they could get to Brendan
because he's a slow learner.
702
00:49:17,567 --> 00:49:21,267
They told him that they talked to me
and it was OK for them to talk to him.
703
00:49:21,334 --> 00:49:24,834
And it wasn't. They never called me.
They never let me know.
704
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:26,534
They just went and done it.
705
00:50:03,334 --> 00:50:05,334
[Wiegert] We know there's
some things you left out
706
00:50:05,401 --> 00:50:10,100
and we know there's some things that maybe
weren't quite correct that you told us.
707
00:50:10,167 --> 00:50:14,834
OK? We've been investigating this a
long time. We pretty much know everything.
708
00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:16,967
That's why we're
talking to you again today.
709
00:50:17,033 --> 00:50:20,134
We really need you to be honest
this time with everything, OK?
710
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,868
If in fact you did some things which
we believe some things may have happened
711
00:50:23,933 --> 00:50:27,100
that you didn't want to tell us about,
it's OK.
712
00:50:27,167 --> 00:50:30,334
As long as you can...
As long as you be honest with us, it's OK.
713
00:50:30,401 --> 00:50:33,634
If you lie about it,
that's gonna be problems, OK?
714
00:50:33,701 --> 00:50:35,667
- Does that sound fair? All right.
- Mm-hm.
715
00:50:35,734 --> 00:50:40,801
[man] The two detectives developed
this theme of honesty and they repeatedly,
716
00:50:40,868 --> 00:50:47,334
dozens of times in that interview,
they say to Brendan, "Now be honest, OK?
717
00:50:47,401 --> 00:50:49,601
You know how important it is
to be honest."
718
00:50:49,667 --> 00:50:53,601
But when you watch the videotapes,
719
00:50:53,667 --> 00:50:58,367
it's clear to me, I think, that when
they say to Brendan, "Be honest,"
720
00:50:58,434 --> 00:51:01,067
what they sort of mean is...
721
00:51:01,134 --> 00:51:04,967
"Don't tell us that,
tell us something else."
722
00:51:05,033 --> 00:51:07,768
Something that fits
their theory of the crime.
723
00:51:07,834 --> 00:51:09,434
[Wiegert]
I think you went over to his house,
724
00:51:09,501 --> 00:51:13,467
maybe you asked him to get his mail,
something in here is missing.
725
00:51:13,534 --> 00:51:14,801
Well, when I got the mail,
726
00:51:14,868 --> 00:51:18,367
there was like an envelope in there
with his name on it.
727
00:51:18,434 --> 00:51:21,667
- [Fassbender] All right.
- [Wiegert] OK. Now we're going.
728
00:51:21,734 --> 00:51:24,067
What did you do?
729
00:51:24,134 --> 00:51:26,701
I knocked on the door
and he answered it.
730
00:51:28,067 --> 00:51:32,467
- [Wiegert] Yeah, and then what?
- I gave it to him and then I left.
731
00:51:32,534 --> 00:51:37,067
Come on now.
You just heard screaming over there.
732
00:51:37,134 --> 00:51:40,000
[Fassbender] Stop making this hard
on us and yourself.
733
00:51:40,067 --> 00:51:43,967
Be honest.
You went inside, didn't you?
734
00:51:44,033 --> 00:51:46,000
- Yeah.
- You went in the trailer?
735
00:51:46,067 --> 00:51:47,801
- Mm-hm.
- [Fassbender] You're nodding.
736
00:51:47,868 --> 00:51:51,601
[White] I think the detectives
in this case were unaware
737
00:51:51,667 --> 00:51:56,667
that the degree to which
they were shaping Brendan's statements.
738
00:51:56,734 --> 00:52:01,300
That's why it's very important to take
a look at the record of the interrogation
739
00:52:01,367 --> 00:52:05,267
to see who mentions
particular facts first.
740
00:52:05,334 --> 00:52:10,334
Do they come from Brendan
without any help from the police
741
00:52:10,401 --> 00:52:13,667
or do they in fact come first
from the police?
742
00:52:13,734 --> 00:52:17,167
And there are several occasions
in these interrogations
743
00:52:17,234 --> 00:52:20,601
where apparently
crucial bits of information
744
00:52:20,667 --> 00:52:24,868
are mentioned first by the police
and not by Brendan Dassey.
745
00:52:24,933 --> 00:52:30,367
Where they really messed up
was when they tried to get the one fact,
746
00:52:30,434 --> 00:52:35,933
the one absolutely secret fact
that nobody in the public yet knew,
747
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,567
was how Teresa Halbach died.
748
00:52:38,634 --> 00:52:43,834
Nobody knew that they had evidence
that she had been shot in the head.
749
00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:48,900
If they could get Brendan to say that,
then that would be dynamite,
750
00:52:48,967 --> 00:52:52,200
because no one knew that
and here if he came out and said it,
751
00:52:52,267 --> 00:52:53,701
then it must be the truth.
752
00:52:53,768 --> 00:52:56,267
And so they kept asking him,
"Come on, Brendan.
753
00:52:56,334 --> 00:52:59,933
Something else happened to her now.
We know something else happened to her."
754
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,667
And eventually they got more specific.
755
00:53:01,734 --> 00:53:06,933
"What else happened to her? Something
happened to her head, Brendan, tell us."
756
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,900
This is after he says,
"Well, we stabbed her."
757
00:53:08,967 --> 00:53:10,601
"Well, yeah,
but what else happened to her?
758
00:53:10,667 --> 00:53:12,501
Something happened to her head."
Hint, hint.
759
00:53:12,567 --> 00:53:14,467
Come on.
760
00:53:17,501 --> 00:53:19,434
Something with the head.
761
00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:25,601
Brendan?
762
00:53:26,567 --> 00:53:28,200
What else did you guys do? Come on.
763
00:53:28,267 --> 00:53:30,467
[Fassbender] What he made you do,
Brendan.
764
00:53:32,868 --> 00:53:35,501
We know he made you do something else.
765
00:53:38,434 --> 00:53:39,967
What was it?
766
00:53:46,834 --> 00:53:48,100
What was it?
767
00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:51,834
[Fassbender] We have the evidence,
Brendan. We just need you to...
768
00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:53,801
to be honest with us.
769
00:53:56,401 --> 00:54:00,100
- That he cut off her hair.
- He cut off her hair?
770
00:54:00,300 --> 00:54:01,601
OK. What else?
771
00:54:01,667 --> 00:54:03,300
[Fassbender] What else
was done to her head?
772
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:09,667
That he punched her.
773
00:54:10,768 --> 00:54:12,167
What else?
774
00:54:14,567 --> 00:54:16,768
[Buting] When you look at him,
he's just sort of sitting there
775
00:54:16,834 --> 00:54:18,768
with these long pauses and he...
776
00:54:18,834 --> 00:54:21,601
You can almost see, you know,
the wheels in his head
777
00:54:21,667 --> 00:54:25,100
turning however slowly, saying,
"What do they want from me?"
778
00:54:25,167 --> 00:54:26,334
And he's guessing.
779
00:54:28,634 --> 00:54:30,734
It's OK. What did he make you do?
780
00:54:35,334 --> 00:54:37,434
- Cut her.
- Cut her where?
781
00:54:38,267 --> 00:54:41,634
- On her throat.
- You cut her throat?
782
00:54:43,167 --> 00:54:45,801
What else happens to her? In her head?
783
00:54:50,401 --> 00:54:55,501
[Fassbender] Extremely important you
tell us this... for us to believe you.
784
00:54:57,300 --> 00:55:00,567
Come on, Brendan. What else?
785
00:55:09,601 --> 00:55:12,100
[Fassbender] We know.
We just need you to tell us.
786
00:55:18,267 --> 00:55:20,134
That's all I can remember.
787
00:55:21,067 --> 00:55:23,067
[Wiegert] All right,
I'm just gonna come out and ask you.
788
00:55:23,134 --> 00:55:24,801
Who shot her in the head?
789
00:55:25,734 --> 00:55:28,534
- He did.
- [Wiegert] Why didn't you tell us that?
790
00:55:30,367 --> 00:55:32,200
'Cause I couldn't think of it.
791
00:55:32,267 --> 00:55:33,834
[Wiegert] Now you remember it?
792
00:55:34,834 --> 00:55:36,768
Tell us about that then.
793
00:55:37,601 --> 00:55:40,567
[Buting] I think Wiegert is the one
who actually got frustrated and said,
794
00:55:40,634 --> 00:55:44,000
"All right, I'm just gonna come out
and say it. Who shot her in the head?"
795
00:55:44,067 --> 00:55:45,768
And of course the answer is "He did,"
but by then,
796
00:55:45,834 --> 00:55:49,534
he's blown the one piece
of secret evidence
797
00:55:49,601 --> 00:55:52,134
that could've corroborated
Brendan Dassey's story
798
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,234
by feeding it to him himself.
799
00:55:59,667 --> 00:56:02,734
[Wiegert] Hey, Brendan, you need to use
the bathroom or anything? You sure?
800
00:56:02,801 --> 00:56:04,200
- You need anything else?
- Mm-mm.
801
00:56:04,267 --> 00:56:06,834
Sandwich or anything?
Did you get your soda?
802
00:56:06,900 --> 00:56:09,434
- Yeah.
- OK, we'll be in in about two minutes, OK?
803
00:56:09,501 --> 00:56:10,801
- I got a question, though.
- Sure.
804
00:56:10,868 --> 00:56:13,434
- How long is this gonna take?
- It shouldn't take a whole lot longer.
805
00:56:13,501 --> 00:56:18,367
- You think I can get there before 1:29?
- Um... probably not.
806
00:56:18,434 --> 00:56:20,134
What's at 1:29?
807
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,200
Well, I have a project due in 6th hour.
808
00:56:22,267 --> 00:56:26,100
OK. We'll worry about that later, OK?
All right.
809
00:56:26,167 --> 00:56:28,200
- I'll be back in a few minutes, OK?
- OK.
810
00:56:33,267 --> 00:56:38,634
[White] Another troubling aspect was the
fact that Brendan didn't really understand
811
00:56:38,701 --> 00:56:40,834
the precariousness of his own position.
812
00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:45,167
He has no understanding that
he's not going to be released from custody
813
00:56:45,234 --> 00:56:49,801
at this point. He has just admitted
to really awful crimes.
814
00:56:49,868 --> 00:56:54,200
[Fassbender] You know, obviously,
that we're police officers, OK?
815
00:56:54,267 --> 00:56:59,467
And because of what you told us...
we're gonna have to arrest you.
816
00:57:01,734 --> 00:57:05,734
Did you kind of figure that... was coming?
817
00:57:05,801 --> 00:57:07,367
For what you did?
818
00:57:07,434 --> 00:57:09,801
We can't let you go right now.
819
00:57:09,868 --> 00:57:12,267
Is it only for one day or...?
820
00:57:12,334 --> 00:57:14,501
[Wiegert] We don't know that at this time.
821
00:57:14,567 --> 00:57:19,267
But let me tell you something, Brendan,
you did the right thing, OK?
822
00:57:19,334 --> 00:57:22,567
By being honest, you can at least
sleep at night now.
823
00:57:22,634 --> 00:57:24,933
'Cause I'm sure you've
had some difficulty with that.
824
00:57:26,033 --> 00:57:30,334
So you did the right thing here
by telling us what happened, OK?
825
00:57:31,167 --> 00:57:33,134
Just remember that in the future.
826
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:34,801
OK? You need to be honest.
827
00:57:34,868 --> 00:57:39,734
This dramatic press conference that
"children should not listen to this,
828
00:57:39,801 --> 00:57:43,367
it's so terrible to hear,"
was pure fantasy.
829
00:57:43,434 --> 00:57:44,967
Looking at that press conference,
830
00:57:45,033 --> 00:57:48,300
you would've expected that
that young boy
831
00:57:48,367 --> 00:57:54,234
who was holding this in for months
and was just... had to unburden himself
832
00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:56,634
with this terrible experience that he had
833
00:57:56,701 --> 00:58:00,234
was emotionally upset
and came out with this whole long story,
834
00:58:00,300 --> 00:58:03,900
when in fact there's not an iota
of emotion expressed by the guy.
835
00:58:03,967 --> 00:58:06,933
He never cries.
He's not upset at all.
836
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,000
He's not coming out with any narrative.
837
00:58:09,067 --> 00:58:15,768
It's one-sentence or one-word responses
to their questions the entire way.
838
00:58:24,300 --> 00:58:27,134
What'd happen if his story's different?
839
00:58:28,801 --> 00:58:29,967
What do you mean?
840
00:58:30,033 --> 00:58:34,534
Like, if his story's, like, different,
like I never did nothing or something.
841
00:58:36,367 --> 00:58:37,768
Did you?
842
00:58:40,067 --> 00:58:41,067
Huh?
843
00:58:41,134 --> 00:58:43,000
Not really.
844
00:58:43,067 --> 00:58:45,300
What do you mean "not really"?
845
00:58:45,367 --> 00:58:47,267
They got to my head.
846
00:58:53,033 --> 00:58:57,801
It's not that there was a lack of physical
evidence to corroborate Brendan,
847
00:58:57,868 --> 00:59:01,900
it's that there was
a wealth of physical evidence to disprove
848
00:59:01,967 --> 00:59:04,667
the statements attributed to him.
849
00:59:04,734 --> 00:59:09,134
You know, he describes this horrible,
bloody episode
850
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,967
of stabbing and...
and throat-slitting on a bed
851
00:59:13,033 --> 00:59:18,367
while this woman supposedly
is handcuffed to the bed.
852
00:59:18,434 --> 00:59:19,467
There's no blood.
853
00:59:20,501 --> 00:59:22,801
There's no blood on the mattress.
There's no blood on the sheets.
854
00:59:22,868 --> 00:59:25,200
There's no blood on the floor.
There's no blood on the wall.
855
00:59:25,267 --> 00:59:28,000
There's no blood. Didn't happen.
856
00:59:30,534 --> 00:59:31,534
[man] Brendan?
857
00:59:33,467 --> 00:59:37,000
My name is Dennis Jacobs.
I'm a detective with Manitowoc County.
858
00:59:37,067 --> 00:59:39,634
Do you have any weapons
or anything on you?
859
00:59:39,701 --> 00:59:43,467
Just some stuff that I can
give to my mom, like a CD player.
860
00:59:43,534 --> 00:59:45,868
[Jacobs] That wouldn't
be a weapon, though.
861
00:59:45,967 --> 00:59:48,033
You have like a little pocket knife,
anything like that?
862
00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:49,234
- No.
- Can you stand up?
863
00:59:49,300 --> 00:59:52,434
I just want to pat you down real quick,
just to make sure.
864
00:59:54,334 --> 00:59:56,334
Oh, that's nothing
that's gonna hurt me.
865
00:59:57,534 --> 00:59:59,167
OK. That's fine.
866
00:59:59,234 --> 01:00:02,834
[Strang] Brendan's young, had no prior
experience with the police,
867
01:00:02,900 --> 01:00:05,167
and he's not a bright kid.
868
01:00:05,234 --> 01:00:09,300
He's a soft, quiet kid
who is easily pushed around,
869
01:00:09,367 --> 01:00:11,667
whether you mean
to push him around or not.
870
01:00:11,734 --> 01:00:13,801
He was an easy mark.
871
01:00:13,868 --> 01:00:18,401
And understand that Brendan is potentially
872
01:00:18,467 --> 01:00:21,334
a crucial defense witness.
873
01:00:21,401 --> 01:00:25,801
Because he's supposedly there
at this bonfire that night.
874
01:00:25,868 --> 01:00:30,634
If you can turn him from a defense witness
into a prosecution witness,
875
01:00:30,701 --> 01:00:34,033
it's a twofer... if you're the police.
876
01:00:36,534 --> 01:00:43,067
If he testifies against Steven,
he'll get 20 years plus parole.
877
01:00:43,134 --> 01:00:46,967
And if he doesn't,
he'll get life without parole.
878
01:00:51,100 --> 01:00:53,300
[theme music plays]
879
01:00:53,334 --> 01:00:58,334
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
==========EPISODE 4=============
1
00:00:16,334 --> 00:00:20,133
He says to me all the time
he didn't do anything.
2
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,868
That they more or less
told him what to say.
3
00:00:26,868 --> 00:00:29,334
- [Brendan on phone] Hey, Mom.
- [Barb on phone] What?
4
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,968
[Brendan] When do I get another attorney?
5
00:00:32,033 --> 00:00:34,300
[Barb] You'll get a different one
for Friday.
6
00:00:35,601 --> 00:00:37,734
[Brendan] April 10th is WrestleMania.
7
00:00:38,968 --> 00:00:40,434
[Barb] Your dad's taping it.
8
00:00:40,501 --> 00:00:42,234
[Brendan] Yeah, but I won't get to see it.
9
00:00:43,501 --> 00:00:44,868
[Barb] When you come home, you can.
10
00:00:44,934 --> 00:00:48,701
[Brendan] Yeah,
when's that gonna be? Next year?
11
00:00:48,767 --> 00:00:51,400
[Barb] No, we're gonna
get you out before then...
12
00:00:52,801 --> 00:00:55,400
because you're not guilty, hon.
13
00:00:55,467 --> 00:00:57,033
[Brendan] Yeah, I know that.
14
00:01:27,067 --> 00:01:28,567
[Steven on phone]<i> I feel sorry for him.</i>
15
00:01:31,634 --> 00:01:34,200
<i>He's only 16 years old,
he's only a kid yet.</i>
16
00:01:35,567 --> 00:01:37,167
<i>They pressed him so much...</i>
17
00:01:39,434 --> 00:01:41,400
<i>he probably don't know which way to go.</i>
18
00:01:44,501 --> 00:01:46,567
<i>But it still makes me look bad, though.</i>
19
00:01:49,334 --> 00:01:52,934
<i>If I was out there
and all of that was happening...</i>
20
00:01:54,701 --> 00:01:56,601
<i>I don't know,
which side would you want to believe?</i>
21
00:01:59,434 --> 00:02:01,767
<i>There ain't nothing good
coming out of this.</i>
22
00:02:01,834 --> 00:02:04,300
[thunder rumbles]
23
00:02:09,367 --> 00:02:12,167
- [theme music plays]
- [geese honking]
24
00:03:12,710 --> 00:03:17,710
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
25
00:03:18,133 --> 00:03:21,534
[announcer] This is NBC 26, live at ten.
26
00:03:22,968 --> 00:03:24,534
[male reporter] Developing story tonight.
27
00:03:24,601 --> 00:03:27,367
Accused killer Brendan Dassey
has a new attorney.
28
00:03:27,434 --> 00:03:30,167
Well, Dassey's new attorney
is Len Kachinsky of Neenah.
29
00:03:30,234 --> 00:03:32,534
Kachinsky says he accepted the Dassey case
30
00:03:32,601 --> 00:03:35,400
knowing it would be his greatest
professional challenge.
31
00:03:35,467 --> 00:03:40,934
[Kachinsky] We have a 16-year-old who,
while morally and legally responsible,
32
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,868
was heavily influenced by someone
that could only be described
33
00:03:44,934 --> 00:03:47,701
as something close to evil incarnate.
34
00:03:47,767 --> 00:03:50,501
Kachinsky says he may be willing
to approach prosecutors
35
00:03:50,567 --> 00:03:53,567
about a plea deal in this case,
but if the case does go to trial,
36
00:03:53,634 --> 00:03:56,167
he'll ask for a jury
from western Wisconsin.
37
00:03:56,234 --> 00:03:58,067
- All right.
- "Evil incarnate." How about that?
38
00:03:58,133 --> 00:03:59,767
- Strong words.
- That's what he called Steven Avery.
39
00:04:05,167 --> 00:04:09,033
[Brendan on phone] Hey, Mom,
my attorney, does he wear glasses?
40
00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:11,868
[Barb] I don't know, hon,
I've never seen him.
41
00:04:11,934 --> 00:04:13,901
[Brendan] I seen him on the TV.
Because he's...
42
00:04:13,968 --> 00:04:16,801
- [Barb] That's a public defender.
- [Brendan] Yeah.
43
00:04:16,868 --> 00:04:20,100
- [Barb] His name is Len.
- [Brendan] Yeah.
44
00:04:20,167 --> 00:04:22,200
- [Barb] Did he come up by you?
- [Brendan] No.
45
00:04:23,767 --> 00:04:26,234
[Kachinsky] I just came in third
in a primary
46
00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:28,467
for circuit judge here
in Winnebago County.
47
00:04:28,534 --> 00:04:32,667
It was kind of a bruising experience,
as politics can be.
48
00:04:32,734 --> 00:04:34,667
And I got the call
from the public defender's office,
49
00:04:34,734 --> 00:04:37,868
say about ten days after the primary,
to represent Mr. Dassey.
50
00:04:38,734 --> 00:04:41,968
Of course,
that had been all over the news, uh,
51
00:04:42,033 --> 00:04:46,267
and Avery's case of course had been
all over the news since about November.
52
00:04:48,901 --> 00:04:51,534
I saw Dassey as a young man in trouble...
53
00:04:51,601 --> 00:04:55,667
that I think there could be
a certain amount of sympathy for.
54
00:04:55,734 --> 00:04:58,868
Someone who was influenced
by a 43-year-old uncle
55
00:04:58,934 --> 00:05:01,400
into doing things he ordinarily...
would not do.
56
00:05:01,467 --> 00:05:03,934
[female reporter] Did he have anybody
with him when he was questioned?
57
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,367
- Parents or otherwise?
- Uh, not that I'm aware of, no.
58
00:05:07,434 --> 00:05:10,067
Is that common or...?
59
00:05:10,133 --> 00:05:13,934
It's quite common for persons
to be interrogated or questioned
60
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,000
outside the presence of their parents,
depending on what the situation is.
61
00:05:18,067 --> 00:05:22,634
I suppose in this case, especially with
his mother being Steve Avery's sister,
62
00:05:22,701 --> 00:05:25,167
they might not have wanted
to have her there.
63
00:05:29,834 --> 00:05:33,501
When the state arrested
and charged Brendan Dassey,
64
00:05:33,567 --> 00:05:36,634
it turned some of
Steven's family against him...
65
00:05:38,634 --> 00:05:41,267
it removed a potential defense witness,
66
00:05:41,334 --> 00:05:44,133
and the state turned the public.
67
00:05:46,534 --> 00:05:52,501
It finally had a compelling story
of a vicious crime.
68
00:05:53,267 --> 00:05:57,367
It had a horror story to tell.
69
00:05:58,567 --> 00:06:02,868
And the media had twice as many
court appearances to cover, you know?
70
00:06:02,934 --> 00:06:07,067
Twice as many shots you can do
of Averys in jail jumpsuits.
71
00:06:09,267 --> 00:06:11,501
The state got three new charges.
72
00:06:11,567 --> 00:06:14,934
Something to give it a motive,
to explain the crime.
73
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,834
Something to up the ante,
you know, at trial,
74
00:06:17,901 --> 00:06:22,000
because any time the state
can add more than one count...
75
00:06:23,367 --> 00:06:26,033
particularly if each one of these counts
76
00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:28,968
carries an enormous
potential prison sentence...
77
00:06:30,801 --> 00:06:35,367
the state increases its chances of winning
in a very concrete, practical way.
78
00:06:35,434 --> 00:06:39,667
Why? Because the defendant,
if he's to win in any meaningful way,
79
00:06:39,734 --> 00:06:41,334
has to run the board.
80
00:06:42,167 --> 00:06:44,400
He has to have the jury come back
"not guilty" on everything.
81
00:06:44,467 --> 00:06:48,868
For the state to win,
it needs to have one charge stick.
82
00:06:58,133 --> 00:07:01,133
[phone line ringing]
83
00:07:04,234 --> 00:07:06,534
- [woman] Associated Press.
- [Steven] Hello?
84
00:07:06,601 --> 00:07:07,934
- [woman] Hello, Steven?
- [Steven] Yeah?
85
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,133
- [woman] Hi. Thanks for calling.
- [Steven] Uh-huh.
86
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,400
[woman] First of all, let's start out
by telling me how you're doing.
87
00:07:13,467 --> 00:07:16,200
[Steven] I could do better
if I was out of here. [laughs]
88
00:07:16,267 --> 00:07:18,701
- [woman] Yeah, I bet.
- [Steven] You know?
89
00:07:19,701 --> 00:07:20,701
[woman] Well, you know, if you...
90
00:07:20,767 --> 00:07:23,100
We can just jump right in
and if you want to begin
91
00:07:23,167 --> 00:07:25,734
by telling me what you think
of your nephew's confession?
92
00:07:26,801 --> 00:07:29,200
[Steven] Um, he was coerced to say it.
93
00:07:30,467 --> 00:07:31,701
[woman] So are you...
94
00:07:31,767 --> 00:07:35,601
You said that you think
that he was coerced to say those things...
95
00:07:35,667 --> 00:07:40,100
[Steven] I know he was. Because there
ain't no evidence to back it up.
96
00:07:41,267 --> 00:07:44,000
They took everything out of the trailer.
They ain't gonna find nothing.
97
00:07:45,767 --> 00:07:49,734
[woman] So do you place any blame on your
nephew for making those statements?
98
00:07:52,133 --> 00:07:56,934
[Steven] With the detectives, it don't
take much for a young person to...
99
00:07:57,634 --> 00:07:59,968
You know, coerce him to say that stuff.
100
00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,267
[woman] Would you describe him as smart?
101
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,367
- [Steven] Brendan?
- [woman] Mm-hm.
102
00:08:06,434 --> 00:08:10,400
[Steven] Um... not really.
103
00:08:11,267 --> 00:08:13,767
Legal experts believe
accused killer Steven Avery
104
00:08:13,834 --> 00:08:16,801
may be sending a message
to his nephew Brendan Dassey
105
00:08:16,868 --> 00:08:17,868
through the media.
106
00:08:17,934 --> 00:08:19,701
Avery spoke with
the Associated Press
107
00:08:19,767 --> 00:08:22,868
in his first interview since
Dassey's statement to police.
108
00:08:22,934 --> 00:08:27,133
Steven Avery says his nephew
Brendan Dassey "isn't very smart"
109
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,167
and that Dassey was "coerced"
into confessing.
110
00:08:30,234 --> 00:08:33,934
I think the meaning of the words
"not very smart" is reference
111
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,634
to possible consequences to Dassey
112
00:08:38,701 --> 00:08:40,767
if he testifies against Avery.
113
00:08:40,834 --> 00:08:43,601
[male reporter] Dassey's testimony
would be critical if prosecutors hope
114
00:08:43,667 --> 00:08:47,334
to convict Steven Avery of rape,
kidnapping and false imprisonment.
115
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,901
Acts that Brendan Dassey claims
he witnessed with his own eyes.
116
00:08:53,934 --> 00:08:55,567
- [Brendan on phone] Hello?
- [Barb on phone] Hello?
117
00:08:55,634 --> 00:08:58,968
- [Brendan] Yeah?
- [Barb] Yeah. You watch the news?
118
00:08:59,100 --> 00:09:01,934
- [Brendan] About what?
- [Barb] About you.
119
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,400
It says, "Teen's attorney
seeks to throw out confession."
120
00:09:06,467 --> 00:09:07,734
[Brendan] What's that mean?
121
00:09:08,767 --> 00:09:15,300
[Barb] He wants to throw out the statement
that they made you say, or whatever.
122
00:09:15,367 --> 00:09:21,033
[Brendan] Yeah. They said that
my statements were inconsistent.
123
00:09:21,100 --> 00:09:23,634
What does "inconsistent" mean?
124
00:09:26,367 --> 00:09:28,133
[Barb] I don't know exactly.
125
00:09:29,868 --> 00:09:32,167
[Brendan] Maybe they're false
or something?
126
00:09:32,234 --> 00:09:33,400
[Barb] I don't know.
127
00:09:34,667 --> 00:09:36,434
[Brendan] Well, that's what I'm thinking.
128
00:09:38,968 --> 00:09:40,667
[Barb] So do you like this attorney?
129
00:09:41,968 --> 00:09:44,934
[Brendan] I don't know.
I don't know him much.
130
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,067
[Barb] Yeah, I know.
131
00:09:46,133 --> 00:09:50,300
[Brendan] Just like, well,
his favorite animal is the same as mine.
132
00:09:50,367 --> 00:09:52,601
- [Barb] What's that?
- [Brendan] A cat.
133
00:09:52,667 --> 00:09:55,634
[Barb] Yeah. Pretty soon
you'll have two cats.
134
00:09:55,701 --> 00:09:58,734
- [Brendan] Two cats?
- [Barb] Mm-hm. Whiskers and Feathers.
135
00:09:58,801 --> 00:10:02,734
- [Brendan] Oh, yeah.
- [Barb laughs] I got 'em for you.
136
00:10:02,801 --> 00:10:04,534
[Brendan] Yeah.
137
00:10:07,834 --> 00:10:09,334
[Barb] I love you, turkey.
138
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,334
[Brendan] Why'd you call me that?
139
00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,467
[Barb] 'Cause you are my little turkey.
140
00:10:13,534 --> 00:10:15,300
[Brendan] I ain't little.
141
00:10:15,367 --> 00:10:17,033
[Barb] You're still my baby.
142
00:10:26,367 --> 00:10:28,834
This case, unlike Steve Avery's case,
143
00:10:28,901 --> 00:10:31,801
is gonna rely almost entirely
on the confession.
144
00:10:33,601 --> 00:10:37,400
The only other evidence they probably
would need to get a conviction
145
00:10:37,467 --> 00:10:40,400
is just some of the
surrounding circumstances
146
00:10:40,467 --> 00:10:43,200
about the death of Teresa Halbach.
147
00:10:43,267 --> 00:10:45,367
So if the confession
is ruled to be admissible,
148
00:10:45,434 --> 00:10:47,133
we would have to take a close look
149
00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,601
at any possible plea-bargaining
with the state.
150
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,200
[Judge Fox] The defendant Brendan Dassey
was, at the time of the police interviews,
151
00:10:56,267 --> 00:11:00,200
a student at Mishicot High School,
enrolled in mostly regular classes
152
00:11:00,267 --> 00:11:02,834
but also in some
Special Education classes.
153
00:11:02,901 --> 00:11:07,667
Testing had disclosed an IQ level
in the low average to borderline range.
154
00:11:07,734 --> 00:11:11,167
There is no evidence that he suffered
from any emotional disorder
155
00:11:11,234 --> 00:11:15,634
which made him unusually susceptible
or vulnerable to police pressures.
156
00:11:15,701 --> 00:11:19,534
Nothing on the videotape
visually depicts Brendan Dassey
157
00:11:19,601 --> 00:11:24,067
as being frightened or intimidated
by the questions of either investigator.
158
00:11:24,133 --> 00:11:27,901
On occasion, the interviewers
purported to know details
159
00:11:27,968 --> 00:11:30,033
which in fact were not true.
160
00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:33,701
The court finds that this tactic
of misleading Brendan Dassey
161
00:11:33,767 --> 00:11:36,367
was neither improper nor coercive
162
00:11:36,434 --> 00:11:41,934
because it did not interfere with Brendan
Dassey's power to make rational choices.
163
00:11:42,701 --> 00:11:46,133
In short, the statements
made by Brendan Dassey
164
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:51,834
to investigators Wiegert and Fassbender
were voluntary statements.
165
00:11:51,901 --> 00:11:56,534
The defendant's motion
to suppress these statements is denied.
166
00:12:13,334 --> 00:12:15,701
To me, I think
if this case goes to trial,
167
00:12:15,767 --> 00:12:21,701
you put the tape of his confession
in the VCR or DVD player and play it,
168
00:12:21,767 --> 00:12:24,734
and, you know,
there's our case right there. Um...
169
00:12:24,801 --> 00:12:28,067
So, yeah.
It's a big victory today for us.
170
00:12:28,133 --> 00:12:29,634
Have you seen the confession, Mike?
171
00:12:29,701 --> 00:12:30,801
I have not, no.
172
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,167
- [female reporter] Hello, Len.
- Hi.
173
00:12:37,234 --> 00:12:40,367
- Here we are for you. [laughs]
- OK.
174
00:12:41,534 --> 00:12:44,267
- Everybody good?
- [man] Good. All set.
175
00:12:44,334 --> 00:12:46,868
- Yeah.
- What are your thoughts after today?
176
00:12:46,934 --> 00:12:49,267
Well, we're disappointed in, uh...
177
00:12:51,534 --> 00:12:53,300
We're... Let's start over.
178
00:12:54,434 --> 00:12:56,167
We're disappointed in Judge Fox's ruling.
179
00:12:56,234 --> 00:12:57,667
I guess we'll take, uh...
180
00:12:57,734 --> 00:13:00,033
You take a case the way the facts come in.
181
00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:04,434
And Brendan and I will be discussing
the various options we've got in this case
182
00:13:04,501 --> 00:13:05,767
sometime next week.
183
00:13:05,834 --> 00:13:10,534
But are you anticipating having Brendan
testify against Steven Avery?
184
00:13:10,601 --> 00:13:13,200
It's always a possibility that he might,
185
00:13:13,267 --> 00:13:16,100
any time you've got a situation like this.
186
00:13:16,167 --> 00:13:19,801
I guess that's a decision Brendan and I
have to talk over next week.
187
00:13:19,868 --> 00:13:21,767
If there was a plea agreement made,
188
00:13:21,834 --> 00:13:25,834
Brendan certainly would be required
to testify truthfully against Steve Avery.
189
00:13:25,901 --> 00:13:29,300
So we want to look at all the options
before making any final decision.
190
00:13:29,367 --> 00:13:34,267
This is an extremely important decision
that a 16-year-old's gonna have to make.
191
00:13:34,334 --> 00:13:36,801
I can give him advice,
but ultimately it's his decision.
192
00:13:54,234 --> 00:13:56,133
Yep, thanks very much.
193
00:13:57,033 --> 00:13:59,434
It's not a real bombshell...
194
00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:33,567
[O'Kelly] There's two things I don't know:
195
00:14:33,634 --> 00:14:35,834
Are you sorry for what you did,
196
00:14:35,901 --> 00:14:37,834
and you promise not to do it again?
197
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:41,901
I know everything else
I need to know about this case,
198
00:14:41,968 --> 00:14:43,868
except for those two things.
199
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,834
So what I want you to do
is make a decision.
200
00:14:59,067 --> 00:15:00,534
I want you to read this form.
201
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,300
And then we're gonna fill it out.
202
00:15:11,167 --> 00:15:13,367
[O'Kelly] Are you sorry?
203
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:27,968
I don't know.
Because I didn't do any...
204
00:15:28,033 --> 00:15:31,567
If you're...
Brendan, if you're not... Look at me.
205
00:15:32,667 --> 00:15:35,133
If you're not sorry, I can't help you.
206
00:15:42,601 --> 00:15:46,200
What I don't want you to do
is spend the rest of your life in prison.
207
00:15:49,968 --> 00:15:52,000
Can you look at me?
208
00:15:52,067 --> 00:15:53,968
Do you want to spend
the rest of your life in prison?
209
00:15:56,067 --> 00:15:57,968
OK. You did a very bad thing.
210
00:15:59,567 --> 00:16:02,767
Yeah, but I was only there
for the fire, though.
211
00:16:02,834 --> 00:16:06,167
Brendan, you haven't
told me the truth yet.
212
00:16:06,234 --> 00:16:09,667
And what I don't want you to do right now
is tell me any more lies.
213
00:16:11,033 --> 00:16:14,868
So you gotta make a decision
before you start writing anything.
214
00:16:15,667 --> 00:16:19,267
You're gonna write the complete truth,
no matter what the truth is.
215
00:16:55,834 --> 00:16:58,400
Is there anything missing
from this statement here?
216
00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:06,000
- No.
- You missed...
217
00:17:06,067 --> 00:17:08,133
Is Teresa in that statement?
218
00:17:10,701 --> 00:17:12,234
No.
219
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:14,067
Then it's missing.
220
00:17:16,667 --> 00:17:18,634
Then it's not a truthful statement.
221
00:17:27,801 --> 00:17:29,901
Would you do this again?
222
00:17:32,434 --> 00:17:33,701
Why not?
223
00:17:40,467 --> 00:17:42,100
'Cause I didn't do nothing.
224
00:17:43,133 --> 00:17:44,501
Well, that's not true.
225
00:17:45,534 --> 00:17:47,534
I was only there for the fire.
226
00:17:52,033 --> 00:17:54,133
I wish that was true.
227
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,901
It is.
228
00:17:55,968 --> 00:17:57,901
You were also in the mobile home.
229
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,300
Not that day, though.
230
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,634
Just so you're perfectly clear...
231
00:18:07,767 --> 00:18:11,634
I want you to testify against
Steven Avery and tell the truth.
232
00:18:18,367 --> 00:18:20,300
And this is how I can help you.
233
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,133
But I can't help you
with those words that you wrote down.
234
00:18:26,634 --> 00:18:29,167
Those words, I can't help you at all.
235
00:18:56,767 --> 00:19:00,534
Why don't you draw another picture
over here of him stabbing her?
236
00:19:03,534 --> 00:19:05,133
Why don't you draw a picture down here...
237
00:19:07,167 --> 00:19:09,067
of you having sex with her there.
238
00:19:12,367 --> 00:19:14,067
OK, why don't you do this...
239
00:19:14,133 --> 00:19:19,601
Why don't you draw a picture of the bed
and how she was tied down.
240
00:19:20,534 --> 00:19:22,434
But draw it big-sized so we can see it.
241
00:19:43,334 --> 00:19:45,968
Thanks very much.
You're doing the right thing.
242
00:19:46,534 --> 00:19:47,901
[female guard] Turn around.
243
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:54,501
[O'Kelly] Hi, Len?
244
00:19:55,667 --> 00:19:58,667
Hi, Len, this is Mike O'Kelly.
I'm with Brendan right now.
245
00:20:00,434 --> 00:20:02,868
Oh, quite well.
Quite well. Very well.
246
00:20:02,934 --> 00:20:04,934
He's given a detailed statement.
247
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,067
Would you like me to call
Special Agent Fassbender
248
00:20:08,133 --> 00:20:11,100
and have him interview Brendan
at this time?
249
00:20:20,567 --> 00:20:24,200
Yes, this is Michael O'Kelly
calling for Special Agent Fassbender.
250
00:20:24,868 --> 00:20:26,267
Hi there.
251
00:20:26,334 --> 00:20:29,567
Hi there, I'm inside
the Sheboygan County jail facility,
252
00:20:29,634 --> 00:20:31,901
and Brendan would like
to visit with you folks.
253
00:20:31,968 --> 00:20:34,868
So he said you can come by
tomorrow morning after breakfast.
254
00:20:36,033 --> 00:20:38,400
He has also prepared a document for me.
255
00:20:38,467 --> 00:20:41,067
And it will be up to you
if you want a copy or not.
256
00:20:44,734 --> 00:20:46,033
[Fassbender] OK, Brendan.
257
00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:49,467
I was told by your attorney,
Mr. Len Kachinsky,
258
00:20:49,534 --> 00:20:51,634
that you wanted to speak with us.
259
00:20:51,701 --> 00:20:55,234
Mark and I came out here today,
you know, Saturday morning,
260
00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:58,033
because we wanted to give you that chance.
261
00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:01,601
We've had an opportunity
to look at the evidence in the case
262
00:21:01,667 --> 00:21:05,234
and even your last statement, there's some
areas that you may want to address
263
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,467
because they don't seem to,
you know, necessarily add up.
264
00:21:08,534 --> 00:21:10,868
- Do you understand that?
- Mm-hm.
265
00:21:12,534 --> 00:21:14,434
Did you cut her hair off?
266
00:21:15,567 --> 00:21:18,367
- Yeah.
- Where did that happen?
267
00:21:18,434 --> 00:21:21,267
In the... In the... bedroom.
268
00:21:22,968 --> 00:21:26,200
- What'd you cut the hair off with?
- The knife.
269
00:21:26,267 --> 00:21:28,200
The knife you guys found in the garage?
270
00:21:29,534 --> 00:21:31,567
- Doesn't make sense.
- [Wiegert] That's impossible.
271
00:21:33,367 --> 00:21:36,300
You took her out to the garage
and that's when you got the knife.
272
00:21:44,133 --> 00:21:45,868
Explain how that can be.
273
00:21:52,033 --> 00:21:53,734
Did you cut her hair off?
274
00:21:54,934 --> 00:21:56,100
No.
275
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,300
Then why did you just tell us you did?
276
00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:09,467
Brendan?
277
00:22:10,267 --> 00:22:11,701
I don't know.
278
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,501
[Wiegert] Why did you ask us to come here?
279
00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:20,834
So you could lie to us?
280
00:22:22,968 --> 00:22:24,267
What do you think your mom would say
281
00:22:24,334 --> 00:22:26,501
if she knew
you were sitting here lying to me?
282
00:22:28,934 --> 00:22:31,868
- I don't know.
- You think she'd be OK with that?
283
00:22:32,701 --> 00:22:35,601
And when I walk out this door right now
and I go call your mom
284
00:22:35,667 --> 00:22:37,501
and tell her that
you've been lying to me...
285
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,968
what do you think she's gonna say?
286
00:22:49,701 --> 00:22:53,033
Mark mentioned talking to your mom about
this and being truthful with her now.
287
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:58,234
OK? If you're truly sorry, you'll
tell your mother the truth about this, OK?
288
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:00,000
- Are you gonna do that?
- Yeah.
289
00:23:00,067 --> 00:23:02,534
- When are you gonna do that?
- Tonight.
290
00:23:02,634 --> 00:23:06,667
OK. Probably be a good idea,
before we tell her.
291
00:23:07,734 --> 00:23:11,634
[phone line ringing]
292
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:15,400
[Barb] Hello?
293
00:23:15,467 --> 00:23:18,300
[recorded voice]
Hello. This is a collect call from...
294
00:23:18,367 --> 00:23:19,467
[Brendan] Brendan.
295
00:23:20,434 --> 00:23:22,267
- [Barb] Hello?
- [Brendan] Yeah?
296
00:23:22,334 --> 00:23:23,801
[Barb] Yeah?
297
00:23:23,868 --> 00:23:25,701
[Brendan] Did you talk to anybody?
298
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,834
[Barb] What do you mean "talk to anybody"?
299
00:23:29,834 --> 00:23:35,734
[Brendan] 'Cause, um, Mark and, uh...
Fassbender are gonna talk to you.
300
00:23:35,801 --> 00:23:37,300
[Barb] About what?
301
00:23:37,367 --> 00:23:39,634
[Brendan] About, well...
302
00:23:41,234 --> 00:23:42,367
[Barb] Huh?
303
00:23:42,434 --> 00:23:44,334
[Brendan] About the case.
304
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,634
[Barb] What do you mean?
305
00:23:46,501 --> 00:23:47,300
[Brendan] Well...
306
00:23:49,467 --> 00:23:51,100
[Barb] I haven't talked to nobody.
307
00:23:52,133 --> 00:23:55,501
I told you, nobody calls me
and lets me know nothing.
308
00:23:55,567 --> 00:23:59,834
- [Brendan] Yeah?
- [Barb] Yeah.
309
00:23:59,901 --> 00:24:02,334
[Brendan] Yeah,
but you might feel bad with...
310
00:24:03,667 --> 00:24:06,501
- if I say it today.
- [Barb] Huh?
311
00:24:06,567 --> 00:24:08,267
[Brendan] About what all happened.
312
00:24:09,701 --> 00:24:11,701
- [Barb] Huh?
- [Brendan] About what all happened.
313
00:24:11,767 --> 00:24:14,234
[Barb] What all happened?
What are you talking about?
314
00:24:15,167 --> 00:24:22,667
[Brendan] About what me
and Steven did that day.
315
00:24:22,734 --> 00:24:24,501
[Barb] So Steven did do it?
316
00:24:24,567 --> 00:24:25,801
[Brendan] Yeah.
317
00:24:28,701 --> 00:24:30,834
[Barb] Oh, he makes me so sick.
318
00:24:33,834 --> 00:24:36,901
[Brendan] I don't even know how
I'm gonna do it in court, though.
319
00:24:36,968 --> 00:24:38,100
[Barb] What do you mean?
320
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,767
[Brendan] I ain't gonna face him.
321
00:24:40,834 --> 00:24:42,801
- [Barb] Face who?
- [Brendan] Steven.
322
00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:47,334
- [Barb] You know what, Brendan?
- [Brendan] What?
323
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,734
[Barb] He did it.
You do what you gotta do.
324
00:24:54,634 --> 00:24:58,033
So in those statements,
you did all that to her too?
325
00:24:59,534 --> 00:25:00,701
[Brendan] Some of it.
326
00:25:01,901 --> 00:25:04,968
[Barb] But what about when I got home
at five, you were here.
327
00:25:05,033 --> 00:25:06,767
- [Brendan] Yeah.
- [Barb] Yeah.
328
00:25:06,834 --> 00:25:08,767
When did you go over there?
329
00:25:09,567 --> 00:25:13,467
[Brendan] Well, I went over earlier
and then came home before you did.
330
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:18,667
[Barb] Why didn't you say something
to me then?
331
00:25:19,667 --> 00:25:21,767
[Brendan] I don't know, I was too scared.
332
00:25:23,167 --> 00:25:26,634
[Barb] You wouldn't have had to been
scared because I would've called 911
333
00:25:26,701 --> 00:25:29,067
and you wouldn't
have been going back over there.
334
00:25:29,133 --> 00:25:34,601
Maybe she would've been alive yet.
335
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,033
Did Brendan tell you this today?
336
00:25:49,734 --> 00:25:50,968
Really?
337
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:54,434
Yeah.
338
00:25:57,434 --> 00:25:58,934
Hm...
339
00:26:04,167 --> 00:26:05,834
Well, give me a call tomorrow.
340
00:26:07,067 --> 00:26:08,033
OK?
341
00:26:09,267 --> 00:26:11,434
All right. You hang in there.
342
00:26:12,968 --> 00:26:15,868
Steven just buried her son.
343
00:26:15,934 --> 00:26:18,701
Those were her words, Barbara's words.
344
00:26:25,834 --> 00:26:27,334
I don't know.
345
00:26:31,133 --> 00:26:34,000
I tell her they're innocent
and she don't believe me.
346
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:38,534
No matter what I can say.
347
00:26:38,601 --> 00:26:39,767
She did before,
348
00:26:39,834 --> 00:26:42,634
and now the cops did this again
and now she don't believe 'em again.
349
00:26:44,067 --> 00:26:46,634
I don't think...
To be honest with you,
350
00:26:46,701 --> 00:26:50,033
I don't think the boy's
got a prayer in hell.
351
00:26:51,601 --> 00:26:52,767
Really.
352
00:27:03,567 --> 00:27:06,334
[announcer]<i> Dateline</i> Saturday.
A young woman vanishes.
353
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,701
Does her disappearance
have a mysterious link
354
00:27:08,767 --> 00:27:11,434
to a terrifying crime 20 years before?
355
00:27:11,501 --> 00:27:13,100
This is the perfect<i> Dateline</i> story.
356
00:27:13,167 --> 00:27:16,767
It's a story with a twist,
it grabs people's attention.
357
00:27:16,834 --> 00:27:21,100
Here's a man who was found innocent,
you know, after 18 years in prison.
358
00:27:21,167 --> 00:27:24,501
And now, oh, my gosh, he could be back
in jail for a crime he really did commit.
359
00:27:26,667 --> 00:27:30,067
Right now, murder is hot.
That's what everyone wants.
360
00:27:30,133 --> 00:27:31,701
That's what the competition wants
361
00:27:31,767 --> 00:27:35,868
and we're trying to beat out the other
networks to get that perfect murder story.
362
00:27:35,934 --> 00:27:38,968
[no audible dialogue]
363
00:27:40,334 --> 00:27:43,467
[no audible dialogue]
364
00:27:46,367 --> 00:27:50,467
[Steven on phone]<i> They can't go a couple</i>
<i>days without putting my name on the TV.</i>
365
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,000
<i>How you gonna get a fair trial?</i>
366
00:27:56,734 --> 00:27:58,534
<i>They say it'll all die down.</i>
367
00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:01,634
<i>Well, it can't die down
if it's always on TV.</i>
368
00:28:02,534 --> 00:28:05,567
<i>Brendan goes up,
they always talk about me.</i>
369
00:28:06,501 --> 00:28:10,033
<i>They're saying I'm guilty
before I even go to trial.</i>
370
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,067
<i>Where's the justice?</i>
371
00:28:24,133 --> 00:28:28,868
I'm looking at the phone bill
from October 31st.
372
00:28:28,934 --> 00:28:32,200
I called Steven at 5:36.
373
00:28:33,234 --> 00:28:37,767
Supposedly when all... this...
374
00:28:39,067 --> 00:28:42,501
murder or whatever
was supposedly happening.
375
00:28:43,334 --> 00:28:47,234
And we talked for 15 minutes, and...
376
00:28:48,601 --> 00:28:50,667
the conversation was normal.
377
00:28:50,734 --> 00:28:54,267
He didn't sound rushed
or like he was doing anything.
378
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,868
And if he was in the middle
of doing something,
379
00:28:56,934 --> 00:28:59,501
we wouldn't have talked for 15 minutes.
380
00:29:14,434 --> 00:29:16,934
Then I called back at 8:57.
381
00:29:17,968 --> 00:29:19,701
Everything was normal then, too.
382
00:29:19,767 --> 00:29:22,400
He was getting ready...
I think he was in bed.
383
00:29:22,467 --> 00:29:25,267
And if he was hiding something
or if he would've done something,
384
00:29:25,334 --> 00:29:27,701
I could hear it in his voice.
385
00:29:27,767 --> 00:29:30,501
And that was all fine.
386
00:30:10,667 --> 00:30:15,200
That day, when that woman come
to take those pictures, we all knew it.
387
00:30:15,267 --> 00:30:16,701
Everybody knew.
388
00:30:16,767 --> 00:30:19,567
Stevie says,
"I gotta be home at a certain time."
389
00:30:19,634 --> 00:30:23,734
He's got... "That gal's coming
to take a picture of the car."
390
00:30:27,801 --> 00:30:32,100
You telling me a man's gonna tell somebody
something like that and then kill her?
391
00:30:32,167 --> 00:30:33,501
I don't think so.
392
00:30:48,601 --> 00:30:51,934
I've been in law enforcement
of one type
393
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,667
and in one position or another
for the last 40 years.
394
00:30:55,734 --> 00:31:01,367
I have never, ever witnessed a search
like was done in this case.
395
00:31:01,434 --> 00:31:07,167
You don't just obtain a warrant
and that gives you the property
396
00:31:07,234 --> 00:31:09,601
for as long as you want.
397
00:31:09,667 --> 00:31:13,400
It's the most unprofessional mess
I've ever seen.
398
00:31:13,467 --> 00:31:18,300
They took over that property
for lengths of time
399
00:31:18,367 --> 00:31:23,367
that gave the opportunity
for evidence to be fooled around with.
400
00:31:23,434 --> 00:31:27,167
Jesus, you don't go into a place
and search it 18 times
401
00:31:27,234 --> 00:31:30,200
and keep looking for something unless...
402
00:31:30,267 --> 00:31:32,267
The only reason you go in a second time
403
00:31:32,334 --> 00:31:35,033
is because you believe
you missed it the first time.
404
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:39,067
Once a place is cleared, it's normally
released back to the person.
405
00:31:46,734 --> 00:31:49,901
The key was worthless,
as far as I was concerned, as evidence,
406
00:31:49,968 --> 00:31:51,634
because of the number of searches.
407
00:31:52,634 --> 00:31:56,667
Now this is a key that
was used by her for several years,
408
00:31:56,734 --> 00:32:01,667
and they took the key
and meticulously scrubbed it for DNA
409
00:32:01,734 --> 00:32:05,868
and that was, at first glance,
a good thing.
410
00:32:05,934 --> 00:32:08,033
But they came up and represented
411
00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:12,968
that the only DNA found on that key
was Steven Avery's.
412
00:32:13,534 --> 00:32:16,100
That is patently ridiculous.
413
00:32:16,167 --> 00:32:22,067
Any crevices, anything else in that key
would have retained her DNA.
414
00:32:22,133 --> 00:32:27,534
And for them to be able to say
"only Steven's DNA is on this"
415
00:32:27,601 --> 00:32:30,167
indicates to me that
416
00:32:30,234 --> 00:32:35,067
that key was scrubbed clean
417
00:32:35,133 --> 00:32:37,100
and his DNA was placed on it.
418
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,000
Some might think,
"Well, you know, we...
419
00:32:43,067 --> 00:32:44,334
Our hands were tied."
420
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,367
You know? That you got a client
who's saying that he's being framed.
421
00:32:48,434 --> 00:32:51,667
Publicly, that's kind of the defense
you'd better go with
422
00:32:51,734 --> 00:32:55,100
or you're contradicting your own client.
423
00:32:55,834 --> 00:32:58,133
But it really wasn't that way here. It...
424
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,834
The defense was raised because
we think the evidence pointed that way.
425
00:33:04,133 --> 00:33:05,534
Here's what we saw.
426
00:33:05,601 --> 00:33:11,934
The RAV4, the victim's RAV4 is found
on the Avery Salvage Yard property.
427
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,701
A ridiculous place to leave it
if he was the killer.
428
00:33:15,767 --> 00:33:17,534
There's a crusher on the property.
429
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:19,601
He knows how to use the crusher.
430
00:33:19,667 --> 00:33:23,634
He was operating the crusher
the day before it was found.
431
00:33:23,701 --> 00:33:27,234
And yet this vehicle wasn't crushed.
Why not?
432
00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:30,934
I mean, that's something that most killers
don't have the opportunity to do.
433
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,000
You know?
434
00:33:32,067 --> 00:33:36,934
If you're a killer and you happen to run
an auto salvage, you have a crusher,
435
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,567
you can get rid of the victim's car.
But he didn't.
436
00:33:40,634 --> 00:33:46,467
Second, his blood was found
inside the vehicle,
437
00:33:46,534 --> 00:33:48,968
but only in a few areas.
438
00:33:49,033 --> 00:33:51,200
Spots, so to speak.
439
00:33:51,267 --> 00:33:53,367
There was evidence
that he had a cut on his finger,
440
00:33:53,434 --> 00:33:59,067
but what didn't make sense was that there
was no fingerprints of Avery's at all,
441
00:33:59,133 --> 00:34:01,167
in or on the vehicle.
442
00:34:01,234 --> 00:34:05,901
That would mean, if Avery was the killer,
he had to have had gloves.
443
00:34:06,801 --> 00:34:10,300
But if he's got gloves on,
how could he be actively bleeding
444
00:34:10,367 --> 00:34:12,033
and leaving his blood behind?
445
00:34:12,868 --> 00:34:15,234
That was totally inconsistent.
446
00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:18,367
So it looked to us like
maybe his argument that,
447
00:34:18,434 --> 00:34:21,434
"If my blood is in that vehicle,
somebody planted it there,"
448
00:34:21,501 --> 00:34:24,133
maybe the evidence was pointing that way.
449
00:34:25,767 --> 00:34:29,167
[male reporter] We've heard it since he
was charged with murdering Teresa Halbach
450
00:34:29,234 --> 00:34:31,100
more than six months ago.
451
00:34:31,167 --> 00:34:33,400
[female reporter] Steven Avery
and members of his family
452
00:34:33,467 --> 00:34:36,434
say police in Manitowoc County
have it out for him.
453
00:34:36,501 --> 00:34:40,467
[male reporter] The sheriff says
the conspiracy theories are ridiculous.
454
00:34:40,534 --> 00:34:43,934
Tonight, we look into if framing
is really a viable defense
455
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,067
in this high profile murder case.
456
00:34:46,133 --> 00:34:48,934
Fox 11's Lauren Cook
has the final part of her series,
457
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,334
"The Avery's: An Inside Look."
458
00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:55,601
[Cook] Avery's family believes
police planted evidence
459
00:34:55,667 --> 00:34:57,567
in and around the salvage yard.
460
00:34:57,634 --> 00:34:59,667
They're free to say
what they want.
461
00:34:59,734 --> 00:35:01,534
The fact is they have to prove it.
462
00:35:02,334 --> 00:35:03,834
And I don't think they could.
463
00:35:03,901 --> 00:35:07,334
[Cook] Sheriff Ken Petersen says
his detectives worked by the book.
464
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,934
He's been here 31 years
and says he knows the Averys
465
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,601
and what he calls
"Steven's colorful past."
466
00:35:13,667 --> 00:35:17,567
[Cook] You say he'll kill again.
Why do you say that?
467
00:35:18,501 --> 00:35:20,567
I think that's his personality.
468
00:35:20,634 --> 00:35:24,868
[Cook] And Petersen says framing
Steven Avery would be much too difficult.
469
00:35:24,934 --> 00:35:26,667
If we wanted to, um...
470
00:35:27,634 --> 00:35:30,601
eliminate Steve,
it would've been a whole lot easier
471
00:35:30,667 --> 00:35:34,100
to eliminate Steve
than it would be to frame Steve.
472
00:35:34,167 --> 00:35:35,667
Hell...
473
00:35:35,734 --> 00:35:37,467
- But...
- [Cook] What do you mean by "eliminate"?
474
00:35:37,534 --> 00:35:40,501
If we wanted him out of the picture,
like in prison,
475
00:35:40,567 --> 00:35:43,801
or if you wanted him killed,
you know,
476
00:35:43,868 --> 00:35:46,601
it would've been much easier
just to kill him.
477
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,534
- [Cook] In the meantime...
- This is insane.
478
00:35:49,601 --> 00:35:53,434
- This is absolutely insane.
- ...from Mishicot High School.
479
00:35:53,501 --> 00:35:57,300
He's in a juvenile detention center
in Sheboygan. Brooke and Tom?
480
00:35:58,033 --> 00:36:00,734
[Milbourn] Lauren, thank you very much.
Still ahead for us tonight...
481
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,300
I... You know, where do you...
where do you start?
482
00:36:05,367 --> 00:36:08,634
[laughing] With digging through
the levels of this thing, any of this.
483
00:36:08,701 --> 00:36:10,367
- Yep.
- It's, um...
484
00:36:12,267 --> 00:36:13,701
It's fascinating.
485
00:36:18,033 --> 00:36:20,234
[Barb on phone] I need to know the truth.
486
00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:22,033
- [Brendan] Yeah?
- [Barb] Yeah.
487
00:36:22,801 --> 00:36:26,267
[Brendan] Well, you know I'm telling you
the truth that it's not true.
488
00:36:26,334 --> 00:36:28,734
[Barb] Then why say it?
489
00:36:28,801 --> 00:36:32,300
[Brendan] That was when they
came up here, remember?
490
00:36:32,367 --> 00:36:34,634
- [Barb] Yeah. On that Saturday.
- [Brendan] Yeah.
491
00:36:34,701 --> 00:36:38,167
They said that they knew
already what happened.
492
00:36:38,234 --> 00:36:40,601
That they wanted me to...
493
00:36:41,767 --> 00:36:45,801
They just wanted it
coming out of my mouth.
494
00:36:45,868 --> 00:36:49,601
[Barb] Brendan, you don't just
come up with something like that
495
00:36:49,667 --> 00:36:51,701
if something like that didn't happen.
496
00:36:51,767 --> 00:36:55,334
Or is it true, that he did kill her?
497
00:36:56,267 --> 00:36:58,200
[Brendan] Not that I know of, I told you.
498
00:37:00,033 --> 00:37:03,801
He might've but not... not with me.
499
00:37:04,734 --> 00:37:05,734
[Barb] So you're honestly
500
00:37:05,801 --> 00:37:06,801
- telling me the truth?
- [Brendan] Yeah.
501
00:37:06,868 --> 00:37:08,567
[Barb] You didn't have nothing
to do with this.
502
00:37:08,634 --> 00:37:10,200
[Brendan] No.
503
00:37:10,267 --> 00:37:13,234
- [Barb] Don't lie to me, Brendan.
- [Brendan] I ain't.
504
00:37:15,501 --> 00:37:19,934
[Barb] But what I can't figure out is why
you said all this shit if it's not true?
505
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,868
And how you came up with it?
506
00:37:22,701 --> 00:37:23,868
[Brendan] Guessing.
507
00:37:24,634 --> 00:37:26,234
[Barb] What do you mean, "guessing"?
508
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:27,934
[Brendan] I guessed.
509
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,701
[Barb] You don't guess
with something like that, Brendan.
510
00:37:30,767 --> 00:37:33,634
[Brendan] Well, that's what I do
with my homework, too.
511
00:37:33,701 --> 00:37:35,334
[Barb] Yeah, I know.
512
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,400
- [Brendan] Well, I do...
- [Barb] This is what put... No.
513
00:37:37,467 --> 00:37:40,434
The statement you made
is what put you in there.
514
00:37:40,501 --> 00:37:41,734
[Brendan] Yeah.
515
00:37:41,801 --> 00:37:47,868
[Barb] And now you're gonna have to get...
so everybody out there...
516
00:37:48,701 --> 00:37:51,367
you'll have to get them to...
517
00:37:51,434 --> 00:37:55,334
[gasps, sighs]
518
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,000
You're... You're not...
You're gonna go to prison.
519
00:37:58,934 --> 00:38:00,534
- [Brendan] Yeah?
- [Barb] Yeah.
520
00:38:01,601 --> 00:38:03,300
For the rest of your life.
521
00:38:03,367 --> 00:38:05,601
For something that's not even true.
522
00:38:06,634 --> 00:38:07,667
[Brendan] Yeah.
523
00:38:10,534 --> 00:38:12,033
[Barb] Is that what you wanted?
524
00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:13,467
[Brendan] No.
525
00:38:13,534 --> 00:38:15,868
[Barb] Well, how you gonna
turn everything around now?
526
00:38:15,934 --> 00:38:17,100
[Brendan] I don't know.
527
00:38:17,167 --> 00:38:20,601
[Barb] Well, you better just start
putting your head on your shoulders,
528
00:38:20,667 --> 00:38:22,133
and start thinking.
529
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,200
[Brendan] How can I? I'm really stupid,
Mom. I can't help it.
530
00:38:26,133 --> 00:38:28,667
[Barb] Why do you agree
to everything then?
531
00:38:29,801 --> 00:38:31,501
[Brendan] 'Cause I'm stupid, I told you.
532
00:38:32,434 --> 00:38:34,300
[Barb] You're not stupid to me.
533
00:38:34,367 --> 00:38:35,234
[Brendan] Yeah, I am.
534
00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:36,934
[Barb] No, you're not.
535
00:38:45,033 --> 00:38:48,467
For me, it's really, really hard.
536
00:38:48,534 --> 00:38:51,501
I want to drink. All the time.
537
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,934
It's confusing, it's frustrating.
538
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,000
'Cause there's not much I can do
to prove that he didn't do it
539
00:39:01,067 --> 00:39:03,400
or that Brendan didn't do it.
540
00:39:04,601 --> 00:39:06,400
And I want to do...
541
00:39:06,467 --> 00:39:10,567
You know, get 'em out so that
they can prove they didn't do it.
542
00:39:10,634 --> 00:39:15,300
But it's just... nerve-wracking.
543
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,968
It was nice to be down here alone
'cause I could think.
544
00:39:24,033 --> 00:39:25,901
And then I had a couple beers and...
545
00:39:28,934 --> 00:39:32,167
It just made me not...
So I wasn't so angry.
546
00:39:36,534 --> 00:39:38,968
If I'm caught, I'd go to jail.
547
00:40:02,067 --> 00:40:04,868
They told me, "Get a job and move."
548
00:40:04,934 --> 00:40:07,200
I moved and got a job. I'm working.
549
00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:12,467
I'm doing everything they told me to.
550
00:40:12,534 --> 00:40:16,734
My lawyer was supposed to talk
to my probation officer on Monday
551
00:40:16,801 --> 00:40:19,033
about having this "no contact" lifted.
552
00:40:22,634 --> 00:40:25,567
I just think they're doing it...
553
00:40:26,801 --> 00:40:30,901
thinking that, well, I'll get sick of it
and just leave him for my own...
554
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:35,968
I don't know.
555
00:40:37,234 --> 00:40:39,367
'Cause it'd be better for me
if I didn't talk to him
556
00:40:39,434 --> 00:40:41,067
and got him out of my life.
557
00:40:42,767 --> 00:40:44,634
Is what I think they think.
558
00:40:47,033 --> 00:40:48,801
But it ain't gonna happen.
559
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,734
[Steven on phone]
<i>Anything to screw with me, they do.</i>
560
00:41:01,167 --> 00:41:04,434
<i>I don't see how
they can keep me from Jodi.</i>
561
00:41:05,701 --> 00:41:08,234
<i>You know, that's just
this detective, though.</i>
562
00:41:09,367 --> 00:41:12,567
<i>Going to her probation officer
and telling her what to do.</i>
563
00:41:13,501 --> 00:41:15,000
<i>You know, that shouldn't be.</i>
564
00:41:17,334 --> 00:41:20,367
<i>That's just another thing
that they got control of.</i>
565
00:41:24,067 --> 00:41:26,467
<i>You know, I don't want to lose Jodi.</i>
566
00:41:29,601 --> 00:41:32,467
[Jodi] I just keep thinking,
"Just wish I could talk to him."
567
00:41:33,334 --> 00:41:35,133
Just tell him I love him.
568
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,834
"See, I'm still here.
I ain't going nowhere."
569
00:41:46,667 --> 00:41:48,100
I think I got it.
570
00:41:52,467 --> 00:41:53,467
In this one.
571
00:41:56,567 --> 00:42:00,000
Yeah. 1982.
572
00:42:05,968 --> 00:42:07,901
Right there.
573
00:42:09,067 --> 00:42:11,133
I remember him.
574
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,200
And him.
575
00:42:18,434 --> 00:42:19,601
Oh, here he is.
576
00:42:20,367 --> 00:42:21,701
Kenny Petersen.
577
00:42:23,434 --> 00:42:26,133
I didn't like the statement
he made, either.
578
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,501
That's a hell of a thing
for a sheriff to say.
579
00:42:28,567 --> 00:42:30,634
He said that right on TV.
580
00:42:31,767 --> 00:42:35,501
[Strang] Defense calls
Sheriff Kenneth Petersen.
581
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,634
[Strang] In 1985, you were requested
by the then-sheriff of Manitowoc County,
582
00:42:50,701 --> 00:42:57,100
Tom Kocourek to arrest Mr. Avery
on a charge of attempted murder.
583
00:42:57,167 --> 00:42:58,267
Yes.
584
00:42:58,334 --> 00:43:01,901
And that involved a violent assault
585
00:43:01,968 --> 00:43:04,367
on a beach here in Manitowoc County?
586
00:43:04,434 --> 00:43:05,434
Correct.
587
00:43:05,501 --> 00:43:10,334
Later, the claim that Mr. Avery had made
that he was innocent of those crimes
588
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:11,734
proved to be true.
589
00:43:12,467 --> 00:43:13,601
[Petersen] Possibly.
590
00:43:14,701 --> 00:43:16,067
- I'm sorry?
- I would have doubt.
591
00:43:16,133 --> 00:43:18,534
- You have doubts about that?
- Yes.
592
00:43:18,601 --> 00:43:20,767
Uh, I want to be clear.
593
00:43:20,834 --> 00:43:27,701
One of the reasons you disengaged
personally from the Halbach investigation
594
00:43:27,767 --> 00:43:32,868
is that you personally
had sat for a deposition
595
00:43:32,934 --> 00:43:37,234
in Steven Avery's civil claim
against Manitowoc County.
596
00:43:37,300 --> 00:43:40,267
No, I don't think that had anything
to do with that decision. No.
597
00:43:40,334 --> 00:43:45,033
Let's break this down. You had your
deposition taken on October 13, 2005.
598
00:43:45,100 --> 00:43:46,934
- Does that sound right?
- It's possible.
599
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:52,200
About two and a half, three weeks
before Ms. Halbach disappeared?
600
00:43:52,267 --> 00:43:53,601
Somewhere in that time frame.
601
00:43:53,667 --> 00:43:55,734
And the other two members
of your department
602
00:43:55,801 --> 00:43:57,734
who had their depositions taken
about the same time
603
00:43:57,801 --> 00:44:02,200
were Lieutenant Lenk and
Sergeant Andrew Colborn, correct?
604
00:44:02,267 --> 00:44:04,667
I don't know.
I don't know who gave depositions.
605
00:44:04,734 --> 00:44:08,567
You don't disagree that they both
sat for depositions in that lawsuit
606
00:44:08,634 --> 00:44:11,167
in mid-October, 2005,
you just don't know?
607
00:44:11,234 --> 00:44:14,300
As I recall, that had something to do
with some information
608
00:44:14,367 --> 00:44:17,033
that came somewhere in the late '90s.
609
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:18,968
Mid-1990s, that's right.
610
00:44:19,033 --> 00:44:20,434
Yeah, that's...
611
00:44:21,033 --> 00:44:24,234
Yeah, but I don't know when they were
deposed. I wouldn't have a clue.
612
00:44:25,367 --> 00:44:29,701
You know, in your life, have you ever
spent a day or a night in jail
613
00:44:29,767 --> 00:44:32,067
- for a crime you didn't commit?
- No.
614
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:38,167
If you were in Steven Avery's chair
and you were in his shoes, so to speak,
615
00:44:38,234 --> 00:44:41,367
would you trust the Manitowoc County
Sheriff's Department
616
00:44:41,434 --> 00:44:45,501
in the investigation and prosecution
of yourself a second time?
617
00:44:45,567 --> 00:44:47,667
[male lawyer] Objection. Speculation.
618
00:44:47,734 --> 00:44:49,601
[Strang] I'm not asking you
to speculate at all.
619
00:44:49,667 --> 00:44:50,667
[male lawyer] Relevance then.
620
00:44:50,734 --> 00:44:53,934
[Judge Willis] I'm gonna sustain
the objection. Any further questions?
621
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,000
[Strang] No.
622
00:44:55,067 --> 00:44:56,801
[Judge Willis] All right,
the witness is excused.
623
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:04,000
[Strang] If I may, Your Honor,
we will not find another case
624
00:45:04,067 --> 00:45:06,501
in which the sheriff opines
625
00:45:06,567 --> 00:45:10,400
not just that the defendant
is guilty of the charged offense,
626
00:45:10,467 --> 00:45:13,267
but opines that if he's acquitted somehow,
627
00:45:13,334 --> 00:45:16,000
he'll murder someone else in the future.
628
00:45:16,067 --> 00:45:20,033
On what possible basis?
I have no idea.
629
00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:22,133
This was really remarkable.
630
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,400
Before we even get
to the bizarre discussion
631
00:45:27,467 --> 00:45:31,501
of how it might have been easier
to kill Steven Avery than to frame him.
632
00:45:35,267 --> 00:45:36,701
Off the charts.
633
00:46:10,634 --> 00:46:15,300
My impression is Brendan's
sort of intimidated by his mother.
634
00:46:15,367 --> 00:46:18,100
Uh, she's... you know, relatively,
635
00:46:18,167 --> 00:46:23,367
in terms of physical stature,
rather petite, but, uh...
636
00:46:24,701 --> 00:46:28,501
has the...
sometimes the attitude of a pit bull.
637
00:46:28,567 --> 00:46:31,400
[laughs] Uh, she's very, you know...
638
00:46:31,467 --> 00:46:34,634
What she doesn't have in physical size
she can make up with her bark.
639
00:46:38,734 --> 00:46:40,501
- [Barb on phone] Hello?
- [Brendan on phone] Yeah?
640
00:46:40,567 --> 00:46:41,767
[Barb] Yeah.
641
00:46:42,534 --> 00:46:45,434
[Brendan] Did you call
my attorney this morning?
642
00:46:45,501 --> 00:46:47,267
[Barb] I tried to get a hold of him.
643
00:46:47,334 --> 00:46:50,601
But he won't return my phone calls.
644
00:46:50,667 --> 00:46:55,100
[Brendan] He gave me this piece of paper
about me pleading or something.
645
00:46:55,167 --> 00:46:56,767
[Barb] Huh?
646
00:46:56,834 --> 00:46:59,734
[Brendan] About me
pleading guilty or something.
647
00:46:59,801 --> 00:47:02,567
- [Barb] For you to plead guilty?
- [Brendan] Yeah.
648
00:47:02,634 --> 00:47:04,300
- [Barb] Brendan?
- [Brendan] What?
649
00:47:04,367 --> 00:47:05,968
[Barb] That's what he gave you?
650
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,934
[Brendan] Well, he... he said that...
651
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,534
if I choose the plea thing,
that's what I...
652
00:47:15,601 --> 00:47:17,634
[Barb] You can't. You can't.
653
00:47:17,701 --> 00:47:22,434
If you take that plea bargain, Brendan,
you're saying you're guilty.
654
00:47:22,501 --> 00:47:26,300
[Brendan] But if...
if I go to trial and that,
655
00:47:26,367 --> 00:47:28,734
he said it's gonna be hard for the jury,
you know,
656
00:47:28,801 --> 00:47:32,133
to believe me if I tell the real,
true story.
657
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,667
[Barb] Your attorney believes you did it.
658
00:47:34,734 --> 00:47:37,367
- [Brendan] Yeah?
- [Barb] Yeah.
659
00:47:37,434 --> 00:47:39,400
He wants to put you away, Brendan.
660
00:47:40,901 --> 00:47:43,868
[Brendan] I don't want to stay in here
until I'm 76 or whatever.
661
00:47:43,934 --> 00:47:46,100
[Barb] I know. I know.
662
00:47:46,167 --> 00:47:48,234
I don't know what to tell you, Brendan.
663
00:47:49,033 --> 00:47:52,934
If you didn't do it,
you need to take it to court.
664
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,167
- You need to take it to trial.
- [Brendan] I didn't, though. Yeah.
665
00:47:57,334 --> 00:48:00,901
Why would his lawyer tell him
he's guilty? Take a plea bargain?
666
00:48:00,968 --> 00:48:03,534
That ain't no lawyer,
far as I'm concerned.
667
00:48:03,601 --> 00:48:05,567
A lawyer is supposed to work for you.
668
00:48:05,634 --> 00:48:08,334
[female reporter] So you would
say Steven Avery is masterminding
669
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,901
your dismissal basically
or your substitution?
670
00:48:10,968 --> 00:48:12,767
I think that's his desire, yes.
671
00:48:14,133 --> 00:48:16,901
I'm getting rid of Len
for the simple reason
672
00:48:16,968 --> 00:48:19,501
is because he's not helping my son.
673
00:48:20,801 --> 00:48:23,434
I'm not doing it because of Steven.
674
00:48:25,434 --> 00:48:27,501
Steven's got a good attorney.
675
00:48:30,367 --> 00:48:31,634
Brendan don't.
676
00:48:32,801 --> 00:48:35,367
Brendan needs somebody
like what Steven's got.
677
00:48:38,367 --> 00:48:40,701
I'm not saying Steven did anything wrong.
678
00:48:42,501 --> 00:48:44,667
I believe he's innocent too.
679
00:48:57,434 --> 00:49:00,501
[Judge Fox] Are you requesting
that your current counsel
680
00:49:00,567 --> 00:49:04,234
- be replaced by someone else?
- Yeah.
681
00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:09,801
Mr. Kachinsky, do you believe that this
request is his free and unfettered choice?
682
00:49:09,868 --> 00:49:11,968
[Kachinsky] Um,
I'm not sure about that, Your Honor.
683
00:49:12,067 --> 00:49:17,000
I have received information
that there has been an ongoing campaign
684
00:49:17,067 --> 00:49:23,334
by Mr. Dassey's co-defendant
to encourage him to obtain new counsel
685
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,534
that might be more
to his co-defendant's... liking.
686
00:49:27,834 --> 00:49:31,234
[Judge Fox] Mr. Dassey,
how do you get along with Mr. Kachinsky?
687
00:49:31,300 --> 00:49:33,033
Not bad.
688
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:35,501
Does "not bad" mean good or what?
689
00:49:36,767 --> 00:49:38,000
Yeah.
690
00:49:38,067 --> 00:49:40,267
Do you guys fight when you're together?
691
00:49:40,334 --> 00:49:42,667
- No.
- Can you talk with him?
692
00:49:42,734 --> 00:49:43,767
Yeah.
693
00:49:43,834 --> 00:49:48,400
Do you think he's doing what he believes
to be in your best interest?
694
00:49:49,234 --> 00:49:52,300
- Sort of.
- [Judge Fox sighs]
695
00:49:52,367 --> 00:49:55,734
Tell me why you want
to change lawyers at this point.
696
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,334
'Cause I think he... that he...
697
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:08,868
I think he...
698
00:50:08,934 --> 00:50:10,334
No, he...
699
00:50:13,767 --> 00:50:16,100
That I think he thinks I'm guilty.
700
00:50:17,968 --> 00:50:20,801
And that's the reason that
you want to get a different lawyer?
701
00:50:20,868 --> 00:50:22,133
Yeah.
702
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,801
I don't see or hear anything
that tells me
703
00:50:25,868 --> 00:50:29,701
that there is an irreconcilable
conflict or difference.
704
00:50:29,767 --> 00:50:30,968
There certainly isn't,
705
00:50:31,033 --> 00:50:35,601
I don't believe, any breakdown,
complete or otherwise, in communication.
706
00:50:35,667 --> 00:50:39,234
Accordingly, I'm going
to deny Mr. Dassey's motion
707
00:50:39,300 --> 00:50:44,100
to substitute someone
for Mr. Kachinsky as his counsel.
708
00:50:44,934 --> 00:50:46,767
Bunch of dirty bastards.
709
00:50:59,801 --> 00:51:02,601
[male reporter] Dean Strang,
Steven Avery's attorney, said and I quote,
710
00:51:02,667 --> 00:51:05,200
"Steven Avery is not
orchestrating a campaign
711
00:51:05,267 --> 00:51:07,067
to get rid of Brendan Dassey's lawyer.
712
00:51:07,133 --> 00:51:10,100
My own sense is that
the whole Dassey and Avery family
713
00:51:10,167 --> 00:51:12,767
is hoping that the current lawyer,
or some lawyer,
714
00:51:12,834 --> 00:51:15,667
simply will defend Brendan Dassey."
715
00:51:46,601 --> 00:51:51,601
[Steven on phone]<i> Investigators</i>
<i>were after her since day one, almost.</i>
716
00:51:51,667 --> 00:51:54,534
<i>How many times did they go after her?</i>
717
00:51:54,601 --> 00:51:56,934
<i>They pushed and pushed and pushed.</i>
718
00:52:14,467 --> 00:52:16,300
All right.
719
00:52:18,067 --> 00:52:19,634
So when did you get put in?
720
00:52:20,734 --> 00:52:22,801
- Tuesday.
- Tuesday.
721
00:52:22,868 --> 00:52:25,734
He had court. I had to come to town too
722
00:52:25,801 --> 00:52:27,801
- and we passed him.
- Mm-hm.
723
00:52:34,534 --> 00:52:36,434
It's just contact,
which you're not supposed to have.
724
00:52:36,501 --> 00:52:39,367
I'm trying not to. I don't want...
I'm sick of this place.
725
00:52:39,434 --> 00:52:41,033
- I don't...
- I got a good job
726
00:52:41,100 --> 00:52:42,767
- and I don't want to lose it.
- That's good.
727
00:52:42,834 --> 00:52:44,534
[Wiegert] Let's get you outta here.
728
00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:47,868
So you're gonna call
your P.O. today, too?
729
00:52:47,934 --> 00:52:50,634
[Jodi] Well, they told me
I had to go see her.
730
00:52:59,934 --> 00:53:02,200
[phone line rings]
731
00:53:03,567 --> 00:53:05,067
[Chuck on phone] Hello?
732
00:53:05,133 --> 00:53:07,300
[Steven] What did Jodi all say to you?
733
00:53:07,367 --> 00:53:09,634
[Chuck] She said you and her were done.
734
00:53:10,601 --> 00:53:12,534
[Steven] So they'd stop screwing with her.
735
00:53:13,067 --> 00:53:15,367
[Chuck] Yeah, that's what she says.
736
00:53:17,033 --> 00:53:19,567
[Steven] So there ain't
no me and her no more?
737
00:53:23,868 --> 00:53:25,901
So I might as well give it up then.
738
00:53:26,734 --> 00:53:29,067
The only thing I was
hanging on to was her.
739
00:53:29,701 --> 00:53:32,033
That was the only thing
keeping me together.
740
00:53:33,767 --> 00:53:35,133
[Chuck] I understand that.
741
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:37,734
There's more fish in the sea, too, though.
742
00:53:38,767 --> 00:53:40,167
[Steven] I don't want nobody else.
743
00:53:40,901 --> 00:53:42,234
I wanted to get married.
744
00:53:45,667 --> 00:53:47,000
I got nothing now.
745
00:54:15,067 --> 00:54:17,100
[Kachinsky] Needless to say,
it was a surprise to me
746
00:54:17,167 --> 00:54:19,100
when the letter got written.
747
00:54:19,167 --> 00:54:21,734
Essentially this is an alibi saying,
you know,
748
00:54:21,801 --> 00:54:25,234
"I wasn't there when the homicide
took place. I was at home."
749
00:54:25,300 --> 00:54:28,601
It says "Hello, I was going
to write to you a while back,
750
00:54:28,667 --> 00:54:30,200
but I didn't have a pencil.
751
00:54:30,267 --> 00:54:34,300
The truth is, me and my brother Blaine
came home from school at 3:45,
752
00:54:34,367 --> 00:54:35,367
walked down the road..."
753
00:54:36,701 --> 00:54:39,734
And he played PlayStation
until his mom came home
754
00:54:39,801 --> 00:54:42,267
between 5:00 and 5:30.
755
00:54:42,334 --> 00:54:45,934
Then he claims he got a call
at 6:00 from Blaine's boss.
756
00:54:45,968 --> 00:54:47,734
Told him that Blaine
went trick-or-treating,
757
00:54:47,801 --> 00:54:53,200
watched more TV until 7:00
when he got a call from Steve Avery.
758
00:54:53,267 --> 00:54:58,934
And then... Which he characterizes
as an invitation to go to the bonfire.
759
00:54:59,767 --> 00:55:02,434
And then they drove the golf cart
around his mother's yard
760
00:55:02,501 --> 00:55:06,667
to find garbage and put a bunch
of junk in the fire that night.
761
00:55:06,734 --> 00:55:10,334
And that's...
Says that's basically what happened.
762
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,834
"I went home, went to bed,
got some sleep."
763
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,167
Barb Janda's admitted that
she's the one that, you know,
764
00:55:17,234 --> 00:55:18,801
encouraged Brendan to write the letter.
765
00:55:18,868 --> 00:55:21,434
Why she did that, I don't know.
766
00:55:21,501 --> 00:55:23,968
It just seems... dumb.
767
00:55:24,033 --> 00:55:27,067
What is understandable is that
768
00:55:27,133 --> 00:55:31,734
if Brendan was gonna be a witness
at Steve Avery's trial,
769
00:55:31,801 --> 00:55:33,434
each and every statement he gave
770
00:55:33,501 --> 00:55:37,667
that was inconsistent
with what he told the police
771
00:55:37,734 --> 00:55:41,834
on March one or on May 13th, um...
772
00:55:41,901 --> 00:55:44,801
would be beneficial to Steve Avery.
773
00:55:46,467 --> 00:55:50,000
So I think she probably knows that.
774
00:55:51,067 --> 00:55:55,200
"P.S. Me and my mom think you are
a good judge. Thank you for your time."
775
00:55:55,267 --> 00:55:59,234
[chuckles] That's contained in the letter.
776
00:56:06,133 --> 00:56:08,934
He's a learning-disabled 16-year-old...
777
00:56:12,634 --> 00:56:13,901
who's...
778
00:56:15,868 --> 00:56:17,801
not equipped to...
779
00:56:18,501 --> 00:56:22,868
face the trouble in which he finds
himself and isn't getting much help.
780
00:56:25,534 --> 00:56:26,667
In my view.
781
00:56:32,367 --> 00:56:33,367
It's just...
782
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:36,133
Whatever his personal failings here,
783
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:39,567
there have been a series
of systemic failings that are...
784
00:56:44,868 --> 00:56:47,000
deeply troubling if you...
785
00:56:51,567 --> 00:56:56,067
think about them too much or...
take them personally.
786
00:57:00,968 --> 00:57:05,601
You know, I'm not sure that I'm...
doing fully what I should be doing
787
00:57:05,667 --> 00:57:08,267
when I'm worrying about...
788
00:57:09,901 --> 00:57:14,467
whether other people
who are not in my charge are...
789
00:57:14,534 --> 00:57:16,033
um...
790
00:57:17,367 --> 00:57:20,167
being ground up
and spit out by this system.
791
00:57:24,033 --> 00:57:26,100
Or being treated unjustly.
792
00:57:26,868 --> 00:57:29,901
I need to worry about whether Steven is,
793
00:57:29,968 --> 00:57:34,701
sort of single-mindedly about that,
I think, in some... in some way.
794
00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:47,133
[bell dings]
795
00:57:53,367 --> 00:57:54,367
[buzzer sounds]
796
00:57:54,434 --> 00:57:57,734
- [man] Yes, can we help you?
- Hi. Here to see Steven Avery.
797
00:57:57,801 --> 00:58:01,300
- [man] OK, just have a seat, please...
- Thanks.
798
00:58:25,133 --> 00:58:27,300
- [male reporter] Got a second?
- Sure.
799
00:58:27,367 --> 00:58:29,100
- [male reporter] Is it on?
- [female reporter] Come on.
800
00:58:29,167 --> 00:58:32,734
Do you feel he's had adequate
representation to this point?
801
00:58:32,801 --> 00:58:34,067
I think he has, yes.
802
00:58:34,133 --> 00:58:36,801
I think, uh,
the steps we took were reasonable.
803
00:58:36,868 --> 00:58:38,534
I respectfully disagree with the judge.
804
00:58:38,601 --> 00:58:44,367
[male reporter] Yet you're still saying it
wasn't a mistake to let him be interviewed
805
00:58:44,434 --> 00:58:47,667
with just your investigator.
You'd do that over again?
806
00:58:47,734 --> 00:58:51,767
Oh, I wouldn't do it over again
because... because of all this. [laughs]
807
00:58:52,534 --> 00:58:53,701
But the, uh...
808
00:58:53,767 --> 00:58:57,200
I think in the final analysis,
the issue of the May 13th statement
809
00:58:57,267 --> 00:58:59,534
probably will never come up
in Brendan's case again.
810
00:58:59,601 --> 00:59:02,300
The state most likely is not gonna use it.
811
00:59:02,367 --> 00:59:03,367
[female reporter] Thanks, Len.
812
00:59:28,567 --> 00:59:30,267
[Steven on phone]<i> It's hard.</i>
813
00:59:30,334 --> 00:59:32,100
<i>You know, I'm in here by myself.</i>
814
00:59:33,133 --> 00:59:35,567
<i>I can't talk to nobody.</i>
815
00:59:35,634 --> 00:59:38,868
<i>I can't even talk to the lawyer
over the phone, it's being recorded.</i>
816
00:59:41,801 --> 00:59:45,701
<i>At least this lawyer is good
and he's doing his job and...</i>
817
00:59:46,567 --> 00:59:47,968
<i>he's trying to figure out...</i>
818
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,267
<i>who did this and everything else.</i>
819
00:59:53,934 --> 00:59:56,033
<i>I don't know how he's gonna do it,</i>
820
00:59:56,100 --> 00:59:59,467
<i>but I guess he's pretty smart
so he'll know what to do.</i>
821
01:00:06,567 --> 01:00:11,634
[Buting] Sheriff Petersen was
the arresting officer of Avery in 1985.
822
01:00:11,701 --> 01:00:13,767
He's now the head of that office,
823
01:00:13,834 --> 01:00:16,868
and clearly...
824
01:00:17,334 --> 01:00:21,501
clearly has a strong dislike for Avery.
825
01:00:21,567 --> 01:00:25,667
If the very top guy has
this kind of attitude about Avery
826
01:00:25,734 --> 01:00:29,300
and that kind of personal involvement
in the case of Avery,
827
01:00:29,367 --> 01:00:32,067
that's gonna permeate the department,
the whole department.
828
01:00:32,133 --> 01:00:38,434
If not, at least it's going to permeate
the upper echelon that's close to him.
829
01:00:38,501 --> 01:00:42,267
And that would include
the lieutenants and the sergeants.
830
01:00:42,334 --> 01:00:47,367
So we looked around and one guy's name
831
01:00:47,434 --> 01:00:51,467
just kept coming up over and over and over
every place we looked.
832
01:00:51,534 --> 01:00:52,968
At critical moments.
833
01:00:53,033 --> 01:00:55,434
And that was Lieutenant James Lenk.
834
01:00:55,501 --> 01:00:59,267
Lenk is the guy who finds the key
in the bedroom
835
01:00:59,334 --> 01:01:02,601
on the seventh entry,
supposedly in plain view.
836
01:01:02,667 --> 01:01:08,467
Lenk is deposed just three weeks
before this Halbach disappearance.
837
01:01:08,534 --> 01:01:11,901
And then, most peculiar of all,
838
01:01:11,968 --> 01:01:17,701
is when we looked in Steven's old
1985 case file in the clerk's office.
839
01:01:17,767 --> 01:01:21,734
Some items from that court file
ultimately proved to exonerate Steven.
840
01:01:21,801 --> 01:01:25,067
Interestingly enough, the transmittal form
841
01:01:25,133 --> 01:01:29,567
that goes with the evidence in 2002
to the crime lab
842
01:01:29,634 --> 01:01:35,767
is filled out by none other than, at that
time, Detective Sergeant James Lenk.
843
01:01:36,334 --> 01:01:38,934
And I said to myself, "Whoa.
844
01:01:39,567 --> 01:01:44,701
This is starting to sound
more than just coincidental."
845
01:01:44,767 --> 01:01:48,634
[man] Um...
No, I thought there was a big box.
846
01:01:48,701 --> 01:01:51,834
[Buting] I thought it was gonna be
in the big box, too. I didn't...
847
01:01:51,901 --> 01:01:53,367
[Wiegert] My understanding is that is it.
848
01:01:53,434 --> 01:01:55,901
The other items
were fingernail scrapings and hair.
849
01:01:55,968 --> 01:01:58,067
This is Jerry Buting. Is Dean available?
850
01:01:58,801 --> 01:02:01,934
[man] OK, there's the date.
3-13-96.
851
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:03,634
- [Buting] On the red tape or... Yeah.
- [man] Yeah.
852
01:02:03,701 --> 01:02:07,434
But we don't know who put
this piece of Scotch tape over this.
853
01:02:07,501 --> 01:02:08,667
[Buting] Right.
854
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:11,567
No, I don't want to leave a...
This is very important I talk to him.
855
01:02:11,634 --> 01:02:14,300
Can you see if somebody
can hunt him down?
856
01:02:29,167 --> 01:02:30,934
- [man] OK?
- [Buting] Bring it out.
857
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:44,968
[Buting] Want to spin it around?
858
01:02:51,734 --> 01:02:53,601
It looks like it's cut through,
doesn't it?
859
01:02:58,133 --> 01:03:01,868
Let me tell you. This is a red-letter day
for the defense.
860
01:03:03,067 --> 01:03:05,067
It could not have been better.
861
01:03:05,133 --> 01:03:09,300
The seal was clearly broken
on the outside of the box
862
01:03:09,367 --> 01:03:13,367
and inside the box is a Styrofoam kit.
863
01:03:13,434 --> 01:03:15,734
The seal is broken in that.
864
01:03:15,801 --> 01:03:18,701
We pulled the Styrofoam halves apart
865
01:03:18,767 --> 01:03:24,300
and there, in all of its glory,
was a test tube that said "Steven Avery,"
866
01:03:24,367 --> 01:03:26,400
inmate number, everything on it.
867
01:03:26,467 --> 01:03:28,734
The blood is liquid.
868
01:03:28,801 --> 01:03:30,300
And get this.
869
01:03:30,367 --> 01:03:36,467
Right in the center of the top
of the tube is a little tiny hole.
870
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,868
Just about the size
of a hypodermic needle.
871
01:03:41,801 --> 01:03:43,701
Yes.
872
01:03:43,767 --> 01:03:50,033
And I spoke with a LabCorp person already
who told me they don't do that.
873
01:03:53,234 --> 01:03:55,167
[laughs]
874
01:03:55,234 --> 01:03:58,067
You can... Have you fallen
on the floor yet or no?
875
01:03:59,300 --> 01:04:00,400
Think about it, Dean.
876
01:04:00,467 --> 01:04:05,434
If LabCorp didn't stick the needle
through the top, then who did?
877
01:04:05,501 --> 01:04:08,968
Some officer went into that file,
opened it up,
878
01:04:09,033 --> 01:04:13,367
took a sample of Steven Avery's blood
and planted it in the RAV4.
879
01:04:13,434 --> 01:04:14,667
Yeah, he knows where we're going.
880
01:04:14,734 --> 01:04:18,300
- [Strang] Game on.
- Game on, exactly. Game on.
881
01:04:18,367 --> 01:04:21,367
[theme music plays]
882
01:04:21,401 --> 01:04:26,401
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
==========EPISODE 5=============
1
00:00:13,017 --> 00:00:15,084
[Steven on phone]<i> Now, there's a chance.</i>
2
00:00:15,151 --> 00:00:16,517
<i>Maybe the truth will come out.</i>
3
00:00:20,884 --> 00:00:22,851
<i>I want everybody to know I'm innocent.</i>
4
00:00:25,484 --> 00:00:27,350
<i>You know, that's all I'm asking for.</i>
5
00:00:32,584 --> 00:00:34,383
[Buting] The State clearly
was freaked out.
6
00:00:35,617 --> 00:00:38,517
Norm Gahn looks at it,
and from that point on,
7
00:00:38,584 --> 00:00:42,650
you could tell that
he was extremely worried.
8
00:00:42,717 --> 00:00:44,550
[indistinct chatter]
9
00:00:47,751 --> 00:00:51,218
[Buting] Afterwards, Norm said,
"This changes everything."
10
00:01:09,084 --> 00:01:13,017
[Gahn] The Defense intends
to bring this vial into court
11
00:01:13,084 --> 00:01:14,650
and show it to the jury
12
00:01:14,717 --> 00:01:18,751
to demonstrate that the vial
was tampered with by officers.
13
00:01:18,817 --> 00:01:24,317
And when officers are accused
of what they're being accused of,
14
00:01:24,383 --> 00:01:27,917
they deserve to have
their reputations protected.
15
00:01:29,184 --> 00:01:32,484
They're good, solid, decent family men.
16
00:01:32,550 --> 00:01:34,617
I'm sure everyone in this room knows them.
17
00:01:35,383 --> 00:01:37,184
We have to show the world...
18
00:01:38,283 --> 00:01:41,283
that the blood that
is in Teresa Halbach's car...
19
00:01:42,450 --> 00:01:44,851
did not come from this vial of blood.
20
00:01:44,917 --> 00:01:46,283
[Judge Willis] Mr. Buting?
21
00:01:47,984 --> 00:01:51,184
After two months, they have not
been able to present the court
22
00:01:51,250 --> 00:01:54,817
with one single scientifically valid test
23
00:01:54,884 --> 00:01:57,550
that would somehow prove
what they would love it to prove.
24
00:01:57,617 --> 00:01:58,884
There are no tests.
25
00:01:58,951 --> 00:02:02,517
Even the FBI stopped doing them
because they're not reliable.
26
00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:08,383
The FBI is only doing this test now
because the State is desperate.
27
00:02:08,450 --> 00:02:11,884
[Gahn] Again,
I just cannot emphasize too much,
28
00:02:11,951 --> 00:02:16,784
give us the chance to meet
this planting frame-up defense.
29
00:02:16,851 --> 00:02:18,584
I believe it's fair
to give them a chance to do so
30
00:02:18,650 --> 00:02:19,751
and that's what I'm gonna do.
31
00:02:19,817 --> 00:02:23,484
- Mr. Fallon?
- Yes, and one final point.
32
00:02:23,550 --> 00:02:27,051
If the Defense wants
to put forth in their defense
33
00:02:27,118 --> 00:02:29,917
that they're suggesting and implying
in their pleadings today,
34
00:02:29,984 --> 00:02:32,817
then they do so at their peril.
35
00:02:34,484 --> 00:02:37,118
- [theme music plays]
- [geese honking]
36
00:03:37,761 --> 00:03:42,761
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
37
00:04:25,450 --> 00:04:30,350
[Strang] It is too late
to sit on the fence.
38
00:04:30,417 --> 00:04:34,417
The State has all the information
it needs today.
39
00:04:34,484 --> 00:04:38,151
It's had it for months to decide
whether it's calling Mr. Dassey
40
00:04:38,218 --> 00:04:43,017
to prove the three charges
it added or not.
41
00:04:43,084 --> 00:04:47,717
The three attorneys at this table
have had long discussions
42
00:04:47,784 --> 00:04:51,051
about whether we should proceed
with all six counts
43
00:04:51,118 --> 00:04:53,017
or whether we should proceed
with the four counts
44
00:04:53,084 --> 00:04:56,817
that don't require
Brendan Dassey's testimony.
45
00:04:56,884 --> 00:05:01,084
If put to that question today,
then it is our inclination
46
00:05:01,151 --> 00:05:07,350
to proceed on the four counts that
do not require Brendan Dassey's testimony.
47
00:05:07,417 --> 00:05:11,250
But if we have to start this case
swimming upstream, if you will,
48
00:05:11,317 --> 00:05:14,383
in the face of some instruction
given to the jury
49
00:05:14,450 --> 00:05:18,118
that they should be taking
some negative view of the State,
50
00:05:18,184 --> 00:05:20,951
then we intend to proceed
on all six counts.
51
00:05:21,017 --> 00:05:22,617
[Judge Willis] Mr. Strang, briefly.
52
00:05:23,350 --> 00:05:24,684
All due respect to Counsel,
53
00:05:24,751 --> 00:05:28,951
the State is supposed to start
every criminal case swimming upstream.
54
00:05:29,017 --> 00:05:32,383
And the strong current against which
the State is supposed to be swimming
55
00:05:32,450 --> 00:05:34,184
is a presumption of innocence.
56
00:05:35,317 --> 00:05:40,617
That presumption of innocence
has been eroded, if not eliminated, here
57
00:05:40,684 --> 00:05:45,218
by the specter of Brendan Dassey.
58
00:05:45,283 --> 00:05:49,484
And here's why the court needs
to take some further curative action.
59
00:05:49,550 --> 00:05:53,984
Up through the WFRV report last night,
for example,
60
00:05:54,051 --> 00:05:56,784
Steven Avery has been presented as the...
61
00:05:56,851 --> 00:06:02,917
The man who allegedly raped...
mutilated and murdered Teresa Halbach.
62
00:06:02,984 --> 00:06:07,717
How many times will Steven Avery
be charged in Manitowoc County
63
00:06:07,784 --> 00:06:09,517
with rapes he didn't commit?
64
00:06:10,250 --> 00:06:11,684
This makes two.
65
00:06:12,817 --> 00:06:15,283
You know, forget getting
the 18 years back on the first one.
66
00:06:15,350 --> 00:06:18,151
Where do we go to get
the last ten months back?
67
00:06:18,218 --> 00:06:21,184
Where do we go to get
our presumption of innocence back...
68
00:06:22,550 --> 00:06:25,250
from a public who believes
and has heard time and again
69
00:06:25,317 --> 00:06:27,584
that he's an alleged rapist?
70
00:06:27,650 --> 00:06:29,317
Even before a murderer.
71
00:06:30,417 --> 00:06:33,617
[Judge Willis] I do not believe
that the State has engaged
72
00:06:33,684 --> 00:06:35,584
in any conduct to this point
73
00:06:35,650 --> 00:06:40,584
which would warrant the giving
of some type of instruction
74
00:06:40,650 --> 00:06:44,951
unfavorable to the State
should the State decide at this point
75
00:06:45,017 --> 00:06:48,817
to dismiss some of the charges
that have been filed.
76
00:07:04,884 --> 00:07:09,617
[Buting] We've got a hundred and... what
is it, 130 of these jury questionnaires?
77
00:07:09,684 --> 00:07:14,851
One person, only one, has said
they think he might actually be innocent.
78
00:07:14,917 --> 00:07:16,684
[Strang] "Yeah,
I'm willing to assume him innocent."
79
00:07:16,751 --> 00:07:17,884
One.
80
00:07:20,084 --> 00:07:23,118
Versus the more typical answer of,
81
00:07:23,184 --> 00:07:24,884
"Is there any reason you... [laughs]
82
00:07:24,951 --> 00:07:27,151
you think you should not be selected
to serve in this case?"
83
00:07:27,218 --> 00:07:29,684
"Yes, I already think he is guilty."
84
00:07:29,751 --> 00:07:30,550
Well, OK.
85
00:07:31,484 --> 00:07:33,118
[Strang] "A trial is pointless"...
86
00:07:33,184 --> 00:07:34,417
"Are you aware of the publicity?"
87
00:07:34,484 --> 00:07:37,684
"Yes, I read everything there was on the
Internet and in the newspaper on this case
88
00:07:37,751 --> 00:07:42,584
including Dassey's interview
confession with detectives." [chuckles]
89
00:07:42,650 --> 00:07:46,051
Um... "This case seems
pretty much cut and dry.
90
00:07:46,118 --> 00:07:48,851
I believe the defendant
is guilty as charged."
91
00:07:48,917 --> 00:07:52,017
- "Have you discussed this at length..."
- There's the American spirit!
92
00:07:55,851 --> 00:07:59,017
[TV plays indistinctly]
93
00:08:04,084 --> 00:08:06,350
[news theme music plays]
94
00:08:06,417 --> 00:08:08,317
[male reporter] Right now,
more than 15 months
95
00:08:08,383 --> 00:08:10,650
after Teresa Halbach was murdered...
96
00:08:10,717 --> 00:08:13,650
[female reporter] The jury is picked
and the trial of Steven Avery
97
00:08:13,717 --> 00:08:17,184
is ready to begin on Monday.
Thanks for joining us.
98
00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:20,817
One of the most high-profile murder trials
in Wisconsin history is set to begin.
99
00:08:20,884 --> 00:08:23,884
Teresa Halbach's family
is seeking justice.
100
00:08:23,951 --> 00:08:25,851
It took all week to seat a jury.
101
00:08:25,917 --> 00:08:28,884
[female reporter] These jurors
range in age from 20 to 80.
102
00:08:28,951 --> 00:08:32,383
They include a carpenter,
an international recording artist,
103
00:08:32,450 --> 00:08:35,751
a homemaker, a mechanic,
some working, some retired.
104
00:08:35,817 --> 00:08:37,984
All Manitowoc County residents.
105
00:08:38,051 --> 00:08:40,484
[female reporter 2] The jury will
be bussed from Manitowoc to Chilton
106
00:08:40,550 --> 00:08:44,218
each day of the trial.
It's expected to last six weeks.
107
00:08:58,951 --> 00:09:00,017
How are ya?
108
00:09:07,417 --> 00:09:10,984
[indistinct chatter]
109
00:09:32,283 --> 00:09:34,717
[Kratz] Teresa Halbach had her whole life
in front of her
110
00:09:34,784 --> 00:09:36,484
and the evidence is going to show...
111
00:09:37,218 --> 00:09:41,984
that on Halloween of 2005, that all ended.
112
00:09:42,051 --> 00:09:46,851
That ended in the hands
of the defendant... Steven Avery.
113
00:09:46,917 --> 00:09:52,484
Who is this man? Virtually all of you
knew something about Steven Avery
114
00:09:52,550 --> 00:09:56,151
before serving on this particular jury.
115
00:09:56,218 --> 00:10:00,817
Mr. Avery achieved some degree
of notoriety back in 2003
116
00:10:00,884 --> 00:10:02,151
when he was exonerated.
117
00:10:02,218 --> 00:10:04,017
And at the close of this case,
118
00:10:04,084 --> 00:10:06,450
I'm gonna point
to every one of you potential jurors
119
00:10:06,517 --> 00:10:10,450
and say that has absolutely nothing
to do with this case.
120
00:10:10,517 --> 00:10:12,817
When deciding who's accountable...
121
00:10:13,884 --> 00:10:17,151
for the death
of 25-year-old Teresa Halbach,
122
00:10:17,218 --> 00:10:23,317
Mr. Avery's past and his past exoneration
have nothing to do with this case.
123
00:10:24,917 --> 00:10:30,617
The State intends to prove to you
that the defendant restrained...
124
00:10:31,417 --> 00:10:37,184
murdered and mutilated Teresa Halbach.
125
00:10:37,250 --> 00:10:39,051
The mutilation of this little girl...
126
00:10:39,118 --> 00:10:42,184
Excuse me, not this little girl,
this young woman,
127
00:10:42,250 --> 00:10:46,550
absolutely occurred
because this is what's left.
128
00:10:47,317 --> 00:10:52,650
Small, tiny pieces of bone fragment.
129
00:10:53,450 --> 00:10:56,017
Now, despite Mr. Avery's efforts
130
00:10:56,084 --> 00:10:59,151
to completely obliterate
all these bones by burning,
131
00:10:59,218 --> 00:11:04,084
to incinerate these bones completely,
this bone survived.
132
00:11:04,151 --> 00:11:06,383
It's Teresa Halbach's shin bone.
133
00:11:06,450 --> 00:11:10,084
It's Karen Halbach's daughter's tibia.
134
00:11:12,417 --> 00:11:18,717
Remembering the humanity
of Teresa Halbach, remembering who she is,
135
00:11:18,784 --> 00:11:24,184
what she meant to these people,
is an important part of this process.
136
00:11:25,051 --> 00:11:30,317
Ultimately, this process includes
assigning accountability
137
00:11:30,383 --> 00:11:36,283
for the murder and the mutilation
of an innocent 25-year-old young lady.
138
00:11:36,350 --> 00:11:39,650
And I'll ask at the conclusion
of this case
139
00:11:39,717 --> 00:11:41,484
that you return verdicts of guilty.
140
00:11:42,450 --> 00:11:44,151
Thank you. Thank you, Judge.
141
00:11:44,851 --> 00:11:46,317
[Judge Willis] Thank you, Mr. Kratz.
142
00:11:57,550 --> 00:11:59,650
[Steven on phone]
<i>They wouldn't look at nobody else.</i>
143
00:12:00,517 --> 00:12:02,951
<i>They're paying all their attention to me.</i>
144
00:12:04,917 --> 00:12:06,717
<i>And they shouldn't be doing that.</i>
145
00:12:07,717 --> 00:12:09,517
<i>That's what they did before.</i>
146
00:12:13,784 --> 00:12:17,283
In a long trial like this,
openings are very important.
147
00:12:18,250 --> 00:12:21,650
Really, probably more important
even than the closings.
148
00:12:22,617 --> 00:12:27,118
Because by the time
they get to that point, um...
149
00:12:27,184 --> 00:12:32,484
it's gonna be a matter of arguing
for a few of them probably.
150
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:36,317
I think most of them will probably
have already decided.
151
00:12:37,450 --> 00:12:39,383
So we want to get 'em early.
152
00:12:39,450 --> 00:12:42,917
Just get 'em thinking that there's
another side to this they have not heard.
153
00:12:42,984 --> 00:12:46,218
All they've been hearing,
for what, 15 months,
154
00:12:46,283 --> 00:12:48,218
is, you know, Teresa Halbach was burned.
155
00:12:48,283 --> 00:12:51,550
Bones were found
on Steven Avery's property.
156
00:12:51,617 --> 00:12:53,383
Which is a horrible fact.
157
00:12:53,450 --> 00:12:57,584
But what they don't know is that
there's evidence those bones were moved.
158
00:12:57,650 --> 00:12:59,517
And so...
And neither does the media.
159
00:12:59,584 --> 00:13:02,317
So it's gonna be interesting
to see the reaction
160
00:13:02,383 --> 00:13:05,450
when that little tidbit
finally becomes public.
161
00:13:07,717 --> 00:13:09,017
The blood I'm more...
162
00:13:09,084 --> 00:13:12,317
a little bit more worried about
than I was when I first discovered it
163
00:13:12,383 --> 00:13:14,550
and was very happy and you know.
164
00:13:14,617 --> 00:13:18,084
Because I don't trust the FBI at all
165
00:13:18,151 --> 00:13:22,383
and I think that they're gonna come up
with some dishonest test
166
00:13:22,450 --> 00:13:25,550
that somehow claims
that the blood in the vial
167
00:13:25,617 --> 00:13:28,751
is different
than what was found at the scene.
168
00:13:28,817 --> 00:13:32,151
And that'll be a little bit harder
to overcome.
169
00:13:32,817 --> 00:13:34,917
I'm not worried about the key at all.
170
00:13:36,218 --> 00:13:39,218
I like the key.
I'm glad they're using it. [clears throat]
171
00:13:39,283 --> 00:13:45,584
It shows that if they would be willing
to go to that length of planting a key,
172
00:13:45,650 --> 00:13:49,383
which I think is...
the jurors are gonna get,
173
00:13:49,450 --> 00:13:54,550
then... the blood follows easily. It does.
174
00:13:58,084 --> 00:14:02,218
[Strang] In 2004,
Steven Avery filed a lawsuit
175
00:14:02,283 --> 00:14:06,917
seeking some recompense
for the hole in his life.
176
00:14:06,984 --> 00:14:10,317
The time he had spent as an innocent man
177
00:14:10,383 --> 00:14:12,817
for the crimes
that Gregory Allen committed.
178
00:14:14,350 --> 00:14:19,350
In October 2005, James Lenk
and another ranking officer
179
00:14:19,417 --> 00:14:23,550
of the Manitowoc County Sheriff's
Department, Sergeant Andrew Colborn,
180
00:14:23,617 --> 00:14:26,517
both were pulled into the lawsuit,
181
00:14:26,584 --> 00:14:29,084
questioned about
their own activity and conduct
182
00:14:29,151 --> 00:14:32,851
with respect to Mr. Avery's imprisonment.
183
00:14:33,717 --> 00:14:37,617
It's Thursday evening about 5:00,
November three,
184
00:14:37,684 --> 00:14:40,283
when Mrs. Halbach reports Teresa missing.
185
00:14:40,350 --> 00:14:44,350
That very night, Calumet is calling
the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department
186
00:14:44,417 --> 00:14:45,784
for a little bit of help.
187
00:14:47,450 --> 00:14:48,751
And who do we get?
188
00:14:49,751 --> 00:14:51,584
We get Sergeant Andrew Colborn.
189
00:14:53,383 --> 00:14:56,650
And he's told,
"Look, two places we'd like
190
00:14:56,717 --> 00:14:59,784
to sort of check out and see
if Teresa Halbach showed up on Monday:
191
00:14:59,851 --> 00:15:03,817
the Zipperer residence...
and Steven Avery."
192
00:15:05,084 --> 00:15:08,517
Well, that's a name that rings a bell.
You better believe.
193
00:15:08,584 --> 00:15:11,984
Less than three weeks,
or about three weeks after his deposition.
194
00:15:12,051 --> 00:15:16,017
And it is interesting
that of those two places
195
00:15:16,084 --> 00:15:20,851
that Sergeant Colborn is asked to check
out and inquire after Teresa Halbach...
196
00:15:21,784 --> 00:15:24,951
he only goes to one.
Goes to Steven Avery's home.
197
00:15:26,084 --> 00:15:30,350
Out of the blue, the same night,
Lieutenant James Lenk
198
00:15:30,417 --> 00:15:34,517
calls Calumet
about this missing person report.
199
00:15:34,584 --> 00:15:37,917
Let's be clear.
It's in another county.
200
00:15:39,017 --> 00:15:41,151
It's not even Manitowoc County at all.
201
00:15:41,218 --> 00:15:44,118
And nobody has called for Lieutenant Lenk.
202
00:15:44,184 --> 00:15:46,350
Nobody's called looking for him.
203
00:15:46,417 --> 00:15:48,550
But the Chief Detective
of Manitowoc County
204
00:15:48,617 --> 00:15:51,751
takes it upon himself that night
to call Calumet
205
00:15:51,817 --> 00:15:56,784
and offer to get involved
in the missing person investigation
206
00:15:56,851 --> 00:16:00,550
where one of the appointments
that was to be kept was Steven Avery.
207
00:16:01,917 --> 00:16:05,017
November five, Saturday,
208
00:16:05,084 --> 00:16:11,118
Pam and Nikole Sturm
find the Toyota they suspect,
209
00:16:11,184 --> 00:16:13,884
correctly as it turns out, is Teresa's.
210
00:16:13,951 --> 00:16:16,884
And folks, from that point forward,
211
00:16:16,951 --> 00:16:19,917
before the police say
they've even opened the car,
212
00:16:19,984 --> 00:16:25,951
before they say they know of any blood
of any sort, in or on the car,
213
00:16:26,017 --> 00:16:30,751
before anybody even knows whether this
young woman has been hurt or killed...
214
00:16:32,450 --> 00:16:35,118
the focus is on Steven Avery.
215
00:16:35,884 --> 00:16:37,051
Hear it yourself.
216
00:16:37,118 --> 00:16:39,517
When Detective Jacobs was calling
217
00:16:39,584 --> 00:16:42,151
after the police have arrived
at the Avery property,
218
00:16:42,218 --> 00:16:44,951
after Teresa's car has been found there.
219
00:16:46,151 --> 00:16:48,584
[recording of phone line ringing]
220
00:16:49,984 --> 00:16:52,884
[woman] Good morning, Manitowoc County
Sheriff's Department. Katie speaking.
221
00:16:52,951 --> 00:16:54,984
[Jacobs] Katie,
just rolled into the parking lot.
222
00:16:55,051 --> 00:16:58,250
Can you tell me,
do we have a body or anything yet?
223
00:16:58,317 --> 00:16:59,751
[Katie] I don't believe so.
224
00:16:59,817 --> 00:17:01,784
[Jacobs] Do we have Steven Avery
in custody, though?
225
00:17:01,851 --> 00:17:03,550
[Katie] I have no idea.
226
00:17:03,617 --> 00:17:06,151
This is 30 minutes
after they found the car.
227
00:17:06,218 --> 00:17:10,684
Indeed, they wouldn't find
the first bone fragment for three days.
228
00:17:11,417 --> 00:17:15,350
"Do we have Steven Avery
in custody, though?"
229
00:17:16,851 --> 00:17:21,283
Now, if you're thinking though
that the evidence will show you
230
00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:25,317
that Manitowoc County bowed out
because of the conflict of interest
231
00:17:25,383 --> 00:17:28,951
after it turned the investigation
over to Calumet County...
232
00:17:29,017 --> 00:17:34,151
If you're thinking that, it's reasonable,
but you're wrong.
233
00:17:36,084 --> 00:17:38,383
Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department
234
00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:40,684
stays very much involved
in this investigation.
235
00:17:42,151 --> 00:17:45,517
The police didn't kill Teresa Halbach,
obviously.
236
00:17:45,584 --> 00:17:48,151
They have that in common
with Steven Avery.
237
00:17:49,450 --> 00:17:52,317
But they wanted to believe he did.
238
00:17:53,417 --> 00:17:56,283
And whoever did kill her
or burned that body
239
00:17:56,350 --> 00:18:01,017
exploited that tunnel vision
pretty skillfully.
240
00:18:03,151 --> 00:18:07,817
In the end, after the full
and fair consideration
241
00:18:07,884 --> 00:18:10,917
of everything and everyone,
242
00:18:10,984 --> 00:18:13,784
the full and fair consideration
that Steven Avery
243
00:18:13,851 --> 00:18:18,517
did not get from the Manitowoc County
Sheriff's Department...
244
00:18:19,383 --> 00:18:22,151
we're gonna ask you to send him home.
245
00:18:24,184 --> 00:18:26,984
We're gonna ask you
to send him home again.
246
00:18:31,151 --> 00:18:34,884
We're gonna ask you
to get it right this time.
247
00:18:34,951 --> 00:18:37,650
We're gonna ask you to set it right.
248
00:18:39,118 --> 00:18:43,784
So Teresa takes a picture,
you come outside.
249
00:18:43,851 --> 00:18:47,017
She and you are both outside
and you give her the money.
250
00:18:47,084 --> 00:18:50,550
She goes and gets in her truck and then
gives you an<i> Auto Trader</i> magazine,
251
00:18:50,617 --> 00:18:52,517
- is that right?
- Yeah.
252
00:18:52,584 --> 00:18:54,051
OK.
253
00:18:54,118 --> 00:18:56,684
Is she in the truck or out of the truck
when she gives you the magazine?
254
00:18:56,751 --> 00:18:58,218
- She's in the truck.
- In the truck.
255
00:18:58,283 --> 00:19:00,884
OK, then what happens next?
256
00:19:00,951 --> 00:19:07,517
Then she gave me the book, shut the door,
I walked toward the house,
257
00:19:07,584 --> 00:19:10,617
- I put the book on the computer.
- Mm-hm.
258
00:19:10,684 --> 00:19:12,484
I came back out.
259
00:19:12,550 --> 00:19:14,584
And then I was gonna
walk over by Bobby...
260
00:19:15,450 --> 00:19:17,650
but then his vehicle was gone.
261
00:19:19,283 --> 00:19:20,917
So you walk in the house,
you put the magazine down,
262
00:19:20,984 --> 00:19:22,751
you come out and Bobby's vehicle's gone?
263
00:19:22,817 --> 00:19:24,751
Bobby's vehicle's gone.
264
00:19:27,951 --> 00:19:31,250
Mr. Dassey, do you know
the defendant Steven Avery?
265
00:19:31,317 --> 00:19:32,884
[Bobby] Yes, he's my uncle.
266
00:19:32,951 --> 00:19:35,184
You have to speak up
just a little bit, please.
267
00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:36,684
Yes, he's my uncle.
268
00:19:36,751 --> 00:19:38,584
And is he in the courtroom here
at this time?
269
00:19:38,650 --> 00:19:39,517
Yes, he is.
270
00:19:39,584 --> 00:19:42,517
Would you point him out for the record?
Tell the judge where he's seated?
271
00:19:42,584 --> 00:19:44,717
[Bobby] He's right over there,
to my right.
272
00:19:44,784 --> 00:19:47,184
[Kratz] Mr. Dassey,
do you know where your uncle lived?
273
00:19:47,250 --> 00:19:49,751
[Bobby] Yes,
he lived right next door to us.
274
00:19:49,817 --> 00:19:51,717
[Kratz] Please tell the jury
what we're looking at.
275
00:19:51,784 --> 00:19:56,017
[Bobby] Well,
basically this is my mom's house. Um...
276
00:19:56,084 --> 00:19:58,184
The red thing is Steven's trailer.
277
00:19:59,350 --> 00:20:02,984
[Kratz] Now, Bobby, on October 31st, 2005,
278
00:20:03,051 --> 00:20:07,118
do you remember anything unusual that
happened at about 2:30 that afternoon?
279
00:20:07,184 --> 00:20:10,784
A vehicle had drove up
and started taking pictures of the van.
280
00:20:11,417 --> 00:20:14,283
Well, let's back up just a minute.
281
00:20:14,851 --> 00:20:20,450
- What did you see?
- I seen a vehicle pull up in our driveway.
282
00:20:20,517 --> 00:20:24,017
And how do you know that it was
about 2:30 in the afternoon?
283
00:20:24,084 --> 00:20:28,283
'Cause I was going hunting that night
and that's the time I wanted to get out.
284
00:20:28,350 --> 00:20:31,584
All right.
Tell the jury what you saw then.
285
00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:37,851
I seen Teresa Halbach get out of
the vehicle and start taking pictures.
286
00:20:38,717 --> 00:20:42,383
After seeing her taking any pictures,
did you see her do anything?
287
00:20:43,151 --> 00:20:45,317
She started... Before I got in the shower,
288
00:20:45,383 --> 00:20:48,383
she actually started walking over
to Steven's trailer.
289
00:20:50,017 --> 00:20:51,917
[Kratz] When looking at exhibit number 61,
290
00:20:51,984 --> 00:20:55,784
could you point to the window that
you looked out and watched things from?
291
00:20:55,851 --> 00:20:57,383
[Bobby] It would be that window there.
292
00:20:58,283 --> 00:20:59,951
[Kratz] The left-most window
on the trailer,
293
00:21:00,017 --> 00:21:01,350
- is that right?
- [Bobby] Yes.
294
00:21:03,151 --> 00:21:06,184
About what time do you think
that you left to go hunting?
295
00:21:06,250 --> 00:21:11,283
- Twenty to three. Quarter to three.
- Quarter to three?
296
00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:15,517
Mr. Dassey, when you walked out
to your vehicle to go bow hunting,
297
00:21:15,584 --> 00:21:18,851
did you notice if Teresa's vehicle
was still in the driveway?
298
00:21:18,917 --> 00:21:20,751
- Yes, it was.
- It was?
299
00:21:20,817 --> 00:21:21,751
Yep.
300
00:21:23,084 --> 00:21:24,650
- Did you see Ms. Halbach?
- No.
301
00:21:24,717 --> 00:21:27,051
- Did you see any signs of her at all?
- No.
302
00:21:29,151 --> 00:21:34,784
Now, Bobby, on the 3rd of November,
a Thursday, I believe it is,
303
00:21:34,851 --> 00:21:41,051
do you recall having a conversation
with your Uncle Steven regarding a body?
304
00:21:41,118 --> 00:21:42,784
- Yes.
- Could you tell us
305
00:21:42,851 --> 00:21:45,350
what your Uncle Steven told you that day?
306
00:21:45,417 --> 00:21:49,017
Well, my buddy Mike
was over too and he asked us...
307
00:21:49,084 --> 00:21:51,917
It sounded like he was joking, honestly.
308
00:21:51,984 --> 00:21:54,350
But he asked us if we wanted...
309
00:21:54,417 --> 00:21:56,650
He wanted us to help him
get rid of the body.
310
00:21:56,717 --> 00:22:01,017
This sensational testimony today accounted
for a dramatic response from the Defense.
311
00:22:01,084 --> 00:22:03,250
[male reporter] Defense attorney
Dean Strang said that...
312
00:22:03,317 --> 00:22:05,884
[overlapping dialogue]
313
00:22:12,951 --> 00:22:15,383
Well, Cammie, as Elizabeth said,
Bobby Dassey's testimony
314
00:22:15,450 --> 00:22:18,017
and the mistrial issue
took up quite a bit of time this morning.
315
00:22:18,851 --> 00:22:21,317
[male reporter] The Defense
made a motion for a mistrial.
316
00:22:21,383 --> 00:22:26,717
We have no written summary
of an interview of Bobby Dassey
317
00:22:26,784 --> 00:22:29,917
in which that statement is recited.
318
00:22:29,984 --> 00:22:35,584
We do have a report of a contact
with a Michael Osmundson.
319
00:22:35,650 --> 00:22:39,450
"Michael indicated he was aware Steven
was one of the last people
320
00:22:39,517 --> 00:22:44,584
to see the missing girl and jokingly
asked Steven if Steven had her,
321
00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:47,484
the missing girl, in a closet.
322
00:22:47,550 --> 00:22:51,417
At this point, Steven asked Michael
if Michael wanted to quote
323
00:22:51,484 --> 00:22:53,984
'help bury the body' closed quote.
324
00:22:54,051 --> 00:22:56,283
And they laughed about this together."
325
00:22:56,350 --> 00:23:02,817
This conversation clearly is placed
on Thursday, November ten.
326
00:23:02,884 --> 00:23:08,151
I now have a different witness to whom
this statement has never been attributed,
327
00:23:08,218 --> 00:23:11,951
identifying the statement
as having been made on November three.
328
00:23:12,017 --> 00:23:13,717
The implication
is that this may have been
329
00:23:13,784 --> 00:23:18,017
before Teresa Halbach
even is reported missing.
330
00:23:18,084 --> 00:23:22,650
What I'm left with is this jury
having heard testimony
331
00:23:22,717 --> 00:23:27,383
from the first blood relative
of Mr. Avery to testify here,
332
00:23:27,450 --> 00:23:30,817
his nephew and next-door neighbor,
333
00:23:30,884 --> 00:23:34,884
that amounts to a confession of a crime.
334
00:23:34,951 --> 00:23:38,851
There is no way to unwind this
from the jury's mind.
335
00:23:38,917 --> 00:23:42,917
It has enormous unfair prejudicial impact.
336
00:23:42,984 --> 00:23:46,317
If there were a remedy
short of a mistrial,
337
00:23:46,383 --> 00:23:48,851
and I don't know that there is,
338
00:23:48,917 --> 00:23:53,151
it would be something like
the court instructing the jury
339
00:23:53,218 --> 00:23:57,717
that it may disregard as false
all of Bobby Dassey's testimony
340
00:23:57,784 --> 00:24:01,184
because of his false testimony
on this point.
341
00:24:02,051 --> 00:24:05,051
[female reporter]
Are you ready? Are you ready?
342
00:24:05,118 --> 00:24:06,717
I'm always ready. Go ahead.
343
00:24:06,784 --> 00:24:08,417
You said when you asked
the question of Bobby
344
00:24:08,484 --> 00:24:11,317
that the conversation
was on November 3rd,
345
00:24:11,383 --> 00:24:14,684
but later you said in reference
to the police report on Mike Osmundson
346
00:24:14,751 --> 00:24:17,951
that he said the conversation
was November 10th.
347
00:24:19,484 --> 00:24:22,484
- Was there a question there?
- [laughs] Can you clarify that?
348
00:24:22,550 --> 00:24:24,350
[female reporter] Where'd you
get the date November 3rd?
349
00:24:24,417 --> 00:24:28,751
I can't clarify that.
The testimony from Bobby Dassey today,
350
00:24:28,817 --> 00:24:30,550
that's the in-court evidence.
351
00:24:30,617 --> 00:24:35,717
He, uh, identified that conversation
as happening on the 3rd.
352
00:24:35,784 --> 00:24:38,650
[female reporter] No, you identified it.
You said "On November 3rd,
353
00:24:38,717 --> 00:24:40,283
I believe it was a Thursday,
354
00:24:40,350 --> 00:24:44,784
do you recall a conversation
with Steven Avery about a body?"
355
00:24:44,851 --> 00:24:47,684
- All right.
- So you established it as November 3rd
356
00:24:47,751 --> 00:24:49,184
and I'm wondering where...
357
00:24:49,250 --> 00:24:50,984
Did that come from a report
we don't know about?
358
00:24:51,051 --> 00:24:55,218
That came from preparation
of, uh, Bobby Dassey.
359
00:24:55,283 --> 00:24:57,951
I talk to my witnesses before I call...
360
00:24:58,017 --> 00:25:02,650
The police reports, were they strictly
from this Mike's statements to police
361
00:25:02,717 --> 00:25:05,283
or did Bobby Dassey actually tell...
362
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:06,584
'Cause it sounded like in court
363
00:25:06,650 --> 00:25:09,383
that Bobby Dassey never mentioned
this conversation
364
00:25:09,450 --> 00:25:13,584
or these jokes with investigators,
that was only Mike that mentioned them.
365
00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:16,751
I understand that you're all
very excited about this one piece.
366
00:25:16,817 --> 00:25:20,383
Please don't forget the real reason
that Bobby testified today.
367
00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:23,984
Establishing the timeline
and establishing that Teresa Halbach
368
00:25:24,051 --> 00:25:27,951
walked towards Mr. Avery's house
before she was murdered.
369
00:25:28,017 --> 00:25:31,951
[male reporter] Why didn't you put Mike
on the witness list and call him?
370
00:25:32,017 --> 00:25:36,017
Instead of avoid... So that you
could have avoided this entire issue?
371
00:25:36,084 --> 00:25:37,650
I didn't think this was an issue.
372
00:25:37,717 --> 00:25:41,218
I get to call my witnesses that I think
is gonna prove the State's case.
373
00:25:41,283 --> 00:25:44,517
Bobby Dassey was a central figure
in this trial
374
00:25:44,584 --> 00:25:48,917
to establish again the timeline and
to establish the last person to see her.
375
00:25:48,984 --> 00:25:53,151
This was not and is not,
at least from the State's perspective,
376
00:25:53,218 --> 00:25:55,584
a central part of this case at all.
377
00:25:57,417 --> 00:25:59,684
This will be very short.
378
00:25:59,751 --> 00:26:03,283
But if you... If you have questions,
we'll take two or three minutes.
379
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:07,184
- [female reporter] What the hell happened?
- [laughter]
380
00:26:07,250 --> 00:26:09,684
That's... cutting right to it.
381
00:26:10,884 --> 00:26:12,617
- Uh...
- Well, we're on deadline, so...
382
00:26:12,684 --> 00:26:15,151
Give me a little direction on...
383
00:26:15,218 --> 00:26:17,917
Does this rise to the level
of prosecutorial misconduct?
384
00:26:17,984 --> 00:26:20,751
I'm... No, I'm not gonna
comment on anybody.
385
00:26:20,817 --> 00:26:23,250
- I'm not here to throw stones.
- But the comment...
386
00:26:23,317 --> 00:26:26,917
The reference to the joke, it wasn't
Dassey who told police about the joke,
387
00:26:26,984 --> 00:26:29,684
it was the third party
who told police about the joke.
388
00:26:29,751 --> 00:26:31,250
[Strang] That's right.
389
00:26:31,317 --> 00:26:34,751
So Dassey never actually told a detective,
"This is what I heard."
390
00:26:34,817 --> 00:26:37,084
He didn't say what he said in court today
to a detective.
391
00:26:37,151 --> 00:26:40,717
So far as the written reports we have,
you are exactly correct.
392
00:26:40,784 --> 00:26:45,118
How can Ken even ask that question then?
393
00:26:45,184 --> 00:26:46,817
How can Ken ask that?
394
00:26:55,184 --> 00:26:57,617
[Dolores] That's horrible to look at.
395
00:26:57,684 --> 00:26:59,817
That stuff isn't even the truth.
396
00:27:03,650 --> 00:27:06,417
You don't feel too good
when he says stuff like that.
397
00:27:08,283 --> 00:27:11,484
We always thought he liked Steven,
but it doesn't sound like it.
398
00:27:28,917 --> 00:27:31,517
[Buting] We're really worried
that the jury might think,
399
00:27:31,584 --> 00:27:36,817
"You know, can we really acquit
this man when we don't know...
400
00:27:36,884 --> 00:27:40,218
We can't tell them who we think did it?"
401
00:27:41,450 --> 00:27:45,218
That's gonna be, on a human level,
the hardest thing, I think.
402
00:27:45,283 --> 00:27:48,884
And the judge has really
tied our hands on that.
403
00:28:02,051 --> 00:28:05,118
[Buting] We can't point the finger
at other suspects.
404
00:28:05,184 --> 00:28:09,917
All we're gonna be able to argue is
failure to follow this lead and that lead
405
00:28:09,984 --> 00:28:14,283
which, in a way,
points at other suspects,
406
00:28:14,350 --> 00:28:17,884
but there's a lot of leads
that if they had been followed up,
407
00:28:17,951 --> 00:28:20,951
might have led to motive,
opportunity and access
408
00:28:21,017 --> 00:28:23,184
and a direct connection to the crime.
409
00:28:23,250 --> 00:28:25,884
But in a case like this,
where there's such tunnel vision,
410
00:28:25,951 --> 00:28:27,517
you can't go too far down that road
411
00:28:27,584 --> 00:28:29,584
because they didn't
go very far down the road.
412
00:28:29,650 --> 00:28:33,450
And by the time we're on the case,
the trail's cold.
413
00:28:33,517 --> 00:28:35,851
Or it's been altered.
414
00:28:39,317 --> 00:28:41,218
My mom had called me, um,
415
00:28:41,283 --> 00:28:44,817
that Thursday, November 3rd,
that afternoon about Teresa
416
00:28:44,884 --> 00:28:50,250
and said that she had tried calling her
and Teresa's inbox was full.
417
00:28:50,317 --> 00:28:55,617
So, um, I guess what
I was interested in was, um...
418
00:28:55,684 --> 00:29:00,851
why it was full or when
the first new message was, you know,
419
00:29:00,917 --> 00:29:03,417
received in her inbox. Um...
420
00:29:03,484 --> 00:29:07,984
I... I had a feeling that
I might know her voicemail password
421
00:29:08,051 --> 00:29:12,218
and so, you know, I...
that's why I did call her voicemail.
422
00:29:12,283 --> 00:29:15,084
Did you listen to at least some
of those messages that day?
423
00:29:15,151 --> 00:29:16,584
I did.
424
00:29:16,650 --> 00:29:18,350
Did you listen to all of 'em?
425
00:29:18,417 --> 00:29:21,250
- I believe that I did.
- OK.
426
00:29:21,317 --> 00:29:23,851
And you said that you called that
on the 3rd of November?
427
00:29:23,917 --> 00:29:25,450
That's correct.
428
00:29:25,517 --> 00:29:28,817
Mr. Halbach, did you erase
any of the messages?
429
00:29:28,884 --> 00:29:31,250
I don't believe I erased any messages.
430
00:29:32,517 --> 00:29:33,784
All right. Thank you.
431
00:29:33,851 --> 00:29:35,884
Mr. Kratz, you may call
your next witness.
432
00:29:35,951 --> 00:29:37,017
[Kratz] Thank you, Judge.
433
00:29:37,084 --> 00:29:39,517
Via telephone, Your Honor,
we're gonna be calling a gentleman
434
00:29:39,584 --> 00:29:41,484
by the name of Tony Zimmerman.
435
00:29:41,550 --> 00:29:44,617
Mr. Zimmerman,
how is that you're employed?
436
00:29:44,684 --> 00:29:48,350
[Zimmerman on phone] I am a network
engineer with Cingular Wireless.
437
00:29:49,051 --> 00:29:54,017
[Kratz] Now as a network engineer,
have you been asked to review reports
438
00:29:54,084 --> 00:30:00,984
that deal with the wireless usage of a
young woman by the name of Teresa Halbach?
439
00:30:01,051 --> 00:30:02,917
[Zimmerman] Yes, I have been.
440
00:30:02,984 --> 00:30:08,450
[Kratz] After October 31st, 2005,
441
00:30:08,517 --> 00:30:12,250
at 2:41 p.m.,
442
00:30:12,317 --> 00:30:17,784
was there any activity in Ms. Halbach's
account after that time?
443
00:30:17,851 --> 00:30:22,717
[Zimmerman] Not from the mobile itself.
No, there was no activity.
444
00:30:22,784 --> 00:30:26,317
Turning to exhibit number 372
for a moment,
445
00:30:26,383 --> 00:30:28,017
do you have an opinion
about whether or not
446
00:30:28,084 --> 00:30:32,584
this would fill up the capacity
of this subscriber's voice mailbox?
447
00:30:32,650 --> 00:30:35,650
[Zimmerman] This appears
that it would not have filled up
448
00:30:35,717 --> 00:30:38,084
the full capacity of the mailbox.
449
00:30:38,917 --> 00:30:39,984
[Buting] All right.
450
00:30:40,751 --> 00:30:45,051
And so if one was getting a message
on November 3rd,
451
00:30:45,118 --> 00:30:49,951
when calling this particular phone number
that said "Mailbox full,"
452
00:30:50,017 --> 00:30:53,051
would that indicate to you
that some messages
453
00:30:53,118 --> 00:30:56,984
had been erased that are not reflected
on this exhibit number 372?
454
00:30:57,051 --> 00:30:59,684
[Zimmerman] If somebody
heard that recording
455
00:30:59,751 --> 00:31:02,484
that the mailbox was full
on November 3rd,
456
00:31:02,550 --> 00:31:06,884
then at least one or more messages
had to have been removed
457
00:31:06,951 --> 00:31:11,617
before the new message at the top
of this document was received.
458
00:31:13,751 --> 00:31:18,550
If at some point people were calling
and finding her mailbox was full,
459
00:31:18,617 --> 00:31:22,084
then some of the messages
that were on that mailbox are gone.
460
00:31:22,151 --> 00:31:26,118
They were erased. Now why?
461
00:31:26,184 --> 00:31:32,417
Why would you erase the messages
of a woman who is missing
462
00:31:32,484 --> 00:31:38,084
and later then found
to have been killed, um...
463
00:31:38,151 --> 00:31:42,751
when those messages might have clues
to her whereabouts, to where she went,
464
00:31:42,817 --> 00:31:44,984
where she was going, perhaps.
465
00:31:45,884 --> 00:31:50,851
Her brother testified
that he did listen on Thursday afternoon,
466
00:31:50,917 --> 00:31:54,118
or right when the police were called,
to some of the messages.
467
00:31:54,184 --> 00:31:55,984
He did have her password,
468
00:31:56,051 --> 00:31:58,184
but he denied erasing any of them.
469
00:31:59,383 --> 00:32:01,617
Well, if he didn't erase them,
then who did?
470
00:32:01,684 --> 00:32:05,851
About three weeks
before she disappeared,
471
00:32:05,917 --> 00:32:10,151
Teresa Halbach, you were aware
had been getting a lot of telephone calls
472
00:32:10,218 --> 00:32:12,484
that she was not answering
on the cell phone?
473
00:32:12,550 --> 00:32:17,751
Yes, sir. She was standing
almost right next to me in a day
474
00:32:17,817 --> 00:32:20,917
and she got this phone call
and she looked at it and went...
475
00:32:20,984 --> 00:32:24,617
Oh, she made... "Oh, not them again"
or "Not him again" or whatever.
476
00:32:24,684 --> 00:32:28,250
And just kind of forgot about it.
And she was...
477
00:32:28,317 --> 00:32:31,717
She looked a little upset so
I questioned her a little bit about this
478
00:32:31,784 --> 00:32:33,917
and she just told me
"just forget about it"
479
00:32:33,984 --> 00:32:37,218
and that somebody keeps calling
at all different hours and blah, blah.
480
00:32:37,283 --> 00:32:40,218
Just a nuisance call. Um...
481
00:32:40,283 --> 00:32:42,817
And that was about two to three weeks...
482
00:32:42,884 --> 00:32:46,650
And she had mentioned that
she had been getting them for a while.
483
00:32:46,717 --> 00:32:49,751
And I said, "Well, why don't you give me
the number and I'll call and find out,
484
00:32:49,817 --> 00:32:51,517
and, you know, intervene a little bit."
485
00:32:51,584 --> 00:32:53,118
And she said, "No, don't worry about it."
486
00:32:53,184 --> 00:32:55,751
And she rec... Whatever the number was
that came up on her phone,
487
00:32:55,817 --> 00:32:56,917
she recognized it?
488
00:32:56,984 --> 00:32:59,517
[Pearce] Yeah, she knew what it was,
but she wouldn't let me know.
489
00:33:00,084 --> 00:33:01,218
Thank you.
490
00:33:03,151 --> 00:33:06,684
[Buting] So if your records show that,
491
00:33:06,751 --> 00:33:10,517
on a certain date, messages were opened
492
00:33:10,584 --> 00:33:14,184
all the way up to that date
on Teresa Halbach's phone,
493
00:33:14,250 --> 00:33:18,283
that would mean that somebody
had listened to those voice messages.
494
00:33:19,317 --> 00:33:21,617
[Kratz] I'd like to be heard outside
the presence of the jury.
495
00:33:21,684 --> 00:33:22,784
Mr. Kratz?
496
00:33:22,851 --> 00:33:27,517
[Kratz] He's about to show her some
retrieved voicemails on the 2nd.
497
00:33:27,584 --> 00:33:32,084
If Mr. Buting's position,
if his theory as the Defense
498
00:33:32,151 --> 00:33:35,984
is that Teresa Halbach is alive
on the 2nd of November,
499
00:33:36,051 --> 00:33:37,317
we're entitled to know that.
500
00:33:37,383 --> 00:33:39,184
We're entitled to notice of that.
501
00:33:39,250 --> 00:33:41,517
That's my objection,
is that it's irrelevant.
502
00:33:41,584 --> 00:33:45,751
Mr. Kratz may draw the conclusion
that because messages are opened
503
00:33:45,817 --> 00:33:50,450
as of November 2nd, that means that
Teresa Halbach was alive on that date.
504
00:33:50,517 --> 00:33:51,951
I don't.
505
00:33:52,017 --> 00:33:53,550
And I don't think the jury
needs to either.
506
00:33:53,617 --> 00:33:56,751
But I do intend
to introduce records that show
507
00:33:56,817 --> 00:34:01,784
that her voicemail was picked up
at 8:00 a.m. on November 2nd.
508
00:34:01,851 --> 00:34:07,118
Something was going on with this phone
in a very, very critical period of time
509
00:34:07,184 --> 00:34:10,917
for this trial, which is between
October 31st and November 5th,
510
00:34:10,984 --> 00:34:13,717
when her car was found, or November 3rd
when she's reported missing.
511
00:34:13,784 --> 00:34:16,784
[Kratz] How does that help this jury
decide who killed her?
512
00:34:18,184 --> 00:34:20,350
That's what the jury's here to do, Judge.
513
00:34:20,417 --> 00:34:22,550
Because unless the State's
prepared to establish
514
00:34:22,617 --> 00:34:26,650
that Mr. Avery had her password,
515
00:34:26,717 --> 00:34:29,517
then he's not the one who's listening
to her messages on Wednesday,
516
00:34:29,584 --> 00:34:31,550
November 2nd at 8:00 a.m.
517
00:34:31,617 --> 00:34:34,717
So that... And their theory is that
he's already destroyed the phone.
518
00:34:34,784 --> 00:34:37,084
- [Kratz] I never said...
- [Buting] Somebody who knew her,
519
00:34:37,151 --> 00:34:40,450
somebody who may have had a motive
that he doesn't have
520
00:34:40,517 --> 00:34:43,084
and somebody who may have had opportunity
was doing that.
521
00:34:43,151 --> 00:34:45,017
- I'm not suggest she was still alive.
- [Kratz] Sounds like a third...
522
00:34:45,084 --> 00:34:46,884
third-party liability, Judge.
That's what it sounds like.
523
00:34:46,951 --> 00:34:48,350
I don't, um...
524
00:34:48,417 --> 00:34:50,051
I'm not gonna argue
that part to the jury
525
00:34:50,118 --> 00:34:52,617
because that's what the court
says we're not gonna do.
526
00:34:52,684 --> 00:34:54,584
But as far as what's relevant is,
527
00:34:54,650 --> 00:34:58,218
the police have had this report
and the police have not followed up
528
00:34:58,283 --> 00:35:01,250
to find out what's up here.
529
00:35:01,317 --> 00:35:06,218
Does the State know
who accessed the voicemail?
530
00:35:08,151 --> 00:35:09,283
I suppose we...
531
00:35:10,884 --> 00:35:15,383
If there was an inkling that Mr. Buting
was going to suggest
532
00:35:15,450 --> 00:35:17,917
that Ms. Halbach was alive at that time,
533
00:35:17,984 --> 00:35:21,484
this is something that could've been
looked into investigatively.
534
00:35:22,917 --> 00:35:24,650
It's another thing
that we could do, Judge,
535
00:35:24,717 --> 00:35:26,784
if the Defense is changing its theories.
536
00:35:26,851 --> 00:35:28,650
[Buting] This is not changing
the theory at all.
537
00:35:28,717 --> 00:35:30,650
This fits perfectly to show
538
00:35:30,717 --> 00:35:33,650
that they have not followed up
this investigative lead
539
00:35:33,717 --> 00:35:37,084
because this investigative lead
points elsewhere than Mr. Avery.
540
00:35:37,151 --> 00:35:40,317
And here we are in the middle of the trial
and it hasn't been investigated.
541
00:35:40,383 --> 00:35:42,118
The jury has a right to know that.
542
00:35:43,218 --> 00:35:44,383
All right, I'm...
543
00:35:45,784 --> 00:35:49,584
I guess having trouble seeing
the apparent relevance of it
544
00:35:49,650 --> 00:35:51,684
at this stage of the trial.
545
00:35:51,751 --> 00:35:54,450
Let's, uh, bring the jurors back in.
546
00:35:55,218 --> 00:35:57,584
[indistinct chatter]
547
00:35:57,650 --> 00:36:01,283
[Buting] The State wants to argue
and in fact put out into the media
548
00:36:01,350 --> 00:36:04,684
as quickly as November 4th
and maybe even November 3rd,
549
00:36:04,751 --> 00:36:07,283
that Steven Avery
was the last person to see her,
550
00:36:07,350 --> 00:36:10,884
when they didn't know that,
and they don't know that to this day.
551
00:36:10,951 --> 00:36:13,350
You know, there's more to come.
552
00:36:13,417 --> 00:36:18,017
You know, examples of one after another
after another of decisions
553
00:36:18,084 --> 00:36:21,984
that were made
in the investigative process,
554
00:36:22,051 --> 00:36:26,951
all of which went just towards
Steven Avery and no one else.
555
00:36:36,118 --> 00:36:38,650
[Steven on phone]<i> They're always saying</i>
<i>I'm the last person to have seen her.</i>
556
00:36:40,984 --> 00:36:43,051
<i>Now, how can I be the last one?</i>
557
00:36:43,118 --> 00:36:44,717
<i>I saw her leave.</i>
558
00:36:49,650 --> 00:36:51,417
<i>So I'm not the last one.</i>
559
00:36:51,484 --> 00:36:53,784
<i>Whoever did this is the last one.</i>
560
00:37:05,350 --> 00:37:10,484
[Strang] Human endeavors are muddy,
they are imperfect by definition,
561
00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:16,550
and a chase for the truth
in a criminal trial can be vain.
562
00:37:16,617 --> 00:37:19,051
Justice, it seems to me,
563
00:37:19,118 --> 00:37:24,051
is staying true
to the set of principles we have
564
00:37:24,118 --> 00:37:28,184
about what we do when confronted
with uncertainty about the truth.
565
00:37:29,517 --> 00:37:31,450
On which side do we err?
566
00:37:31,517 --> 00:37:35,450
Do we err on the side of depriving
a human being of liberty
567
00:37:35,517 --> 00:37:41,917
or do we err on the side of a human being
sustaining his claim to liberty
568
00:37:41,984 --> 00:37:44,917
when we're uncertain
as we almost always are?
569
00:37:53,250 --> 00:37:57,051
[Kratz] Was Steven Avery
the only person being investigated?
570
00:37:57,118 --> 00:37:59,984
- No.
- Explain that.
571
00:38:01,118 --> 00:38:04,917
We go into an investigation
and you're not gonna lock and load.
572
00:38:04,984 --> 00:38:08,617
You're gonna listen to all
the intelligence and information
573
00:38:08,684 --> 00:38:12,151
being brought in,
look at all the evidence. Um...
574
00:38:12,218 --> 00:38:14,751
You're there to find the truth.
575
00:38:14,817 --> 00:38:17,383
That's what we go there for,
is to find the truth.
576
00:38:17,450 --> 00:38:22,817
And the object is to allow
the evidence and the facts
577
00:38:22,884 --> 00:38:26,951
that are uncovered as you go along
to lead you to the most logical suspect.
578
00:38:27,017 --> 00:38:29,383
I think you mentioned before
the last person to see her alive,
579
00:38:29,450 --> 00:38:32,450
- obvious place to start, is that right?
- Most certainly.
580
00:38:34,617 --> 00:38:38,650
You said that you... Mr. Avery was not
the only person being investigated.
581
00:38:38,717 --> 00:38:39,984
[Fassbender] Correct.
582
00:38:42,017 --> 00:38:45,084
But that you felt he was
the most obvious place to start.
583
00:38:45,151 --> 00:38:47,118
[Fassbender] If I have
to pick a place to start,
584
00:38:47,184 --> 00:38:49,684
the person who last saw that person alive
585
00:38:49,751 --> 00:38:52,383
- is a pretty logical place to start.
- [Buting] All right.
586
00:38:52,450 --> 00:38:57,650
Often the most obvious suspect
in a homicide is a spouse,
587
00:38:57,717 --> 00:38:59,317
you look at the spouse, right?
588
00:38:59,383 --> 00:39:02,317
Yes. The people we love the most.
589
00:39:02,383 --> 00:39:06,283
[Buting] Or you look at a boyfriend
or an ex-boyfriend. Don't you?
590
00:39:06,350 --> 00:39:07,817
[Fassbender] Yes.
591
00:39:07,884 --> 00:39:12,484
How about a roommate who doesn't
report the victim missing for three,
592
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:14,350
almost four days?
593
00:39:16,650 --> 00:39:18,817
- Yes.
- Somebody you'd want to investigate?
594
00:39:18,884 --> 00:39:20,218
That's a possible area to look at.
595
00:39:20,283 --> 00:39:24,317
That'd be somebody
you'd want to ask for an alibi?
596
00:39:25,283 --> 00:39:28,450
[Buting] In most cases,
the people who are close to a victim
597
00:39:28,517 --> 00:39:30,817
are the ones who are in fact the killers.
598
00:39:30,884 --> 00:39:33,584
And in this case,
in every single instance,
599
00:39:33,650 --> 00:39:37,517
all those people who are close to her,
the police never investigated.
600
00:39:37,584 --> 00:39:38,751
Any of them.
601
00:39:38,817 --> 00:39:42,917
They never from the minute the case
was reported considered...
602
00:39:42,984 --> 00:39:45,717
seriously considered
the possibility that Teresa Halbach
603
00:39:45,784 --> 00:39:47,684
was killed by somebody she knew.
604
00:39:47,751 --> 00:39:49,784
[Kratz] How did you know Teresa?
605
00:39:49,851 --> 00:39:52,817
Um, I guess she was a long-time friend.
606
00:39:52,884 --> 00:39:55,717
We had dated for five years or so.
607
00:39:55,784 --> 00:39:58,317
End of high school
and early part of college.
608
00:39:59,450 --> 00:40:04,151
Were you aware
of Ms. Halbach's living arrangements?
609
00:40:04,218 --> 00:40:07,218
- Yes.
- And what were they, if you recall?
610
00:40:07,283 --> 00:40:12,917
She lived in a house
with a friend of ours, Scott Bloedorn.
611
00:40:12,984 --> 00:40:17,184
And was it your understanding
that Scott and Teresa
612
00:40:17,250 --> 00:40:19,851
had any kind
of a romantic relationship?
613
00:40:19,917 --> 00:40:22,684
- No. No romantic relationship.
- All right. Just roommates?
614
00:40:22,751 --> 00:40:24,817
Just roommates.
615
00:40:24,884 --> 00:40:27,450
Mr. Hillegas, when was the first time
616
00:40:27,517 --> 00:40:31,118
that you heard your friend Teresa
had gone missing?
617
00:40:31,184 --> 00:40:34,984
Scott had called me
and said that Teresa's dad
618
00:40:35,051 --> 00:40:37,617
had went over and asked
if he had seen Teresa,
619
00:40:37,684 --> 00:40:41,951
and Scott called me and I went over
to the house that afternoon
620
00:40:42,017 --> 00:40:46,717
and we printed off her cell phone
records off the Internet.
621
00:40:46,784 --> 00:40:50,151
Just to see, you know,
calls she had made or, you know,
622
00:40:50,218 --> 00:40:52,784
if there were other numbers of friends
that we could find on there.
623
00:40:52,851 --> 00:40:57,184
Finding her cell phone records,
how does something like that occur?
624
00:40:57,250 --> 00:41:01,617
Um... well, there were a couple of us
that tried figuring it out,
625
00:41:01,684 --> 00:41:04,751
but basically I figured out her password
626
00:41:04,817 --> 00:41:08,184
and made up a user name that worked
and got into her...
627
00:41:09,017 --> 00:41:11,650
her phone records and, I mean,
they printed right off.
628
00:41:11,717 --> 00:41:13,817
[Kratz] All right.
629
00:41:13,884 --> 00:41:16,751
Now, tell me about this online search.
630
00:41:16,817 --> 00:41:18,951
She had never shared her password
with you?
631
00:41:19,017 --> 00:41:20,051
[Hillegas] No.
632
00:41:20,118 --> 00:41:24,550
[Buting] So you just went online to
Cingular Wireless or whatever, dot com,
633
00:41:24,617 --> 00:41:27,317
and just guessed her password?
634
00:41:28,184 --> 00:41:30,751
Well, we had just kind of figured
that it would...
635
00:41:30,817 --> 00:41:32,884
apparently be something
relating to her sisters.
636
00:41:32,951 --> 00:41:34,417
And I believe it was their...
637
00:41:34,484 --> 00:41:37,417
I think it was their birth dates
that got into it for us.
638
00:41:37,484 --> 00:41:40,550
I'm not exactly sure about
what the password was, but...
639
00:41:40,617 --> 00:41:41,817
OK.
640
00:41:47,084 --> 00:41:51,184
Let me ask you about the weekend
of October 29th and 30th.
641
00:41:51,250 --> 00:41:53,584
The 29th being the Saturday.
642
00:41:53,650 --> 00:41:56,751
Did you see her or talk with her that day?
643
00:41:56,817 --> 00:42:00,751
I don't believe I talked to her
on Saturday.
644
00:42:02,484 --> 00:42:04,417
Yeah, I don't think so.
645
00:42:04,484 --> 00:42:08,250
OK. Did you talk with her
or see her on Sunday?
646
00:42:08,317 --> 00:42:10,417
- Yes.
- And where was that?
647
00:42:10,484 --> 00:42:11,851
Uh, at her house.
648
00:42:11,917 --> 00:42:13,484
And how did that come about?
649
00:42:13,550 --> 00:42:15,650
I had just stopped briefly...
650
00:42:15,717 --> 00:42:17,383
I think I was dropping something off
for Scott
651
00:42:17,450 --> 00:42:19,684
and she was sitting there
at her computer.
652
00:42:19,751 --> 00:42:22,450
So the last time you actually
saw Teresa was Sunday?
653
00:42:22,517 --> 00:42:25,250
- Yes.
- Do you know about what time that was?
654
00:42:25,317 --> 00:42:27,350
No. I don't know.
655
00:42:27,917 --> 00:42:30,383
I mean, we talking morning,
afternoon, night?
656
00:42:33,250 --> 00:42:35,717
- I don't know.
- You don't remember at all?
657
00:42:40,151 --> 00:42:44,717
All right, by the time that Calumet County
investigators arrived,
658
00:42:44,784 --> 00:42:49,584
I take it you guys were pretty concerned
about Teresa's well-being, where she was.
659
00:42:49,650 --> 00:42:51,383
Yes.
660
00:42:51,450 --> 00:42:54,917
Did the police interview you
and Scott together
661
00:42:54,984 --> 00:42:57,484
or did they put you in separate rooms
when they talked to you,
662
00:42:57,550 --> 00:42:58,984
or how'd they do that?
663
00:42:59,051 --> 00:43:01,383
Um...
664
00:43:03,317 --> 00:43:07,784
I believe we were...
I believe we were in the same room.
665
00:43:07,851 --> 00:43:13,751
OK. Did the police ever ask you
for any kind of alibi for October 31st?
666
00:43:13,817 --> 00:43:14,951
No.
667
00:43:15,017 --> 00:43:17,317
They never asked your
whereabouts whatsoever?
668
00:43:17,817 --> 00:43:20,084
- I don't believe so.
- OK.
669
00:43:20,151 --> 00:43:25,017
So it'd be fair to say that you weren't
in any way treated like a suspect,
670
00:43:25,084 --> 00:43:27,851
- that you could tell?
- That's correct.
671
00:43:27,917 --> 00:43:33,617
And even on the 5th and thereafter
when the search narrowed into the Averys,
672
00:43:33,684 --> 00:43:37,517
the police actually
let you through some checkpoints
673
00:43:37,584 --> 00:43:38,751
along with some other searchers,
674
00:43:38,817 --> 00:43:41,851
you leading them to come
and search the area, right?
675
00:43:41,917 --> 00:43:43,851
- Yes.
- The area around the Avery property
676
00:43:43,917 --> 00:43:47,584
that they had made off-limits
to the general public, right?
677
00:43:47,650 --> 00:43:48,784
Yes.
678
00:44:06,250 --> 00:44:08,650
[Kratz] Now,
with you being the coordinator
679
00:44:08,717 --> 00:44:11,984
of this citizens search effort
on that Friday,
680
00:44:12,051 --> 00:44:14,851
that is the day after Teresa
was reported missing,
681
00:44:14,917 --> 00:44:20,617
what efforts were being developed
to try to find Teresa?
682
00:44:20,684 --> 00:44:24,951
Friday night, we kind of planned a...
a road search I guess you could call it,
683
00:44:25,017 --> 00:44:26,584
where everybody got in their vehicles
684
00:44:26,650 --> 00:44:29,517
and drove certain parts of roads and maps
that we had plotted out for 'em
685
00:44:29,584 --> 00:44:31,784
just to make sure
we'd cover everything, but...
686
00:44:31,851 --> 00:44:33,484
Maps of what?
687
00:44:33,550 --> 00:44:35,984
Maps of county highways...
688
00:44:37,118 --> 00:44:39,484
out in, you know,
the Manitowoc area near the Averys...
689
00:44:39,550 --> 00:44:43,218
Let me ask you something, Mr. Hillegas,
why would you center
690
00:44:43,283 --> 00:44:46,550
or why would you direct
some of your search efforts
691
00:44:46,617 --> 00:44:48,550
around the Avery property?
692
00:44:48,617 --> 00:44:51,417
Well, mostly for the fact that,
you know,
693
00:44:51,484 --> 00:44:54,151
the media had covered so much of it,
you know.
694
00:44:54,218 --> 00:44:58,817
All you'd heard about was, you know,
around the Avery property and...
695
00:44:58,884 --> 00:45:01,250
I believe by that point
we had known that, you know,
696
00:45:01,317 --> 00:45:04,917
her last kind of whereabouts
were in that neck of the woods.
697
00:45:04,984 --> 00:45:08,884
So even as an untrained
law enforcement officer,
698
00:45:08,951 --> 00:45:12,017
you knew to look for the last place
she was seen alive, is that right?
699
00:45:12,084 --> 00:45:13,417
- Yeah.
- OK.
700
00:45:15,250 --> 00:45:18,817
Do you know Pam Sturm
or her daughter Nikole Sturm?
701
00:45:18,884 --> 00:45:21,984
I had met them Saturday morning.
702
00:45:22,051 --> 00:45:27,218
They showed up after the good majority
of everybody else had left.
703
00:45:27,283 --> 00:45:28,917
But that was the first time
I had met them.
704
00:45:28,984 --> 00:45:33,717
What did you and Pam Sturm discuss?
705
00:45:33,784 --> 00:45:35,650
She just basically
came right out and said,
706
00:45:35,717 --> 00:45:38,450
"Has anybody went to the car yard yet?
You know, the Avery salvage yard."
707
00:45:38,517 --> 00:45:42,051
And we just said no, that we hadn't
been sending anybody in there
708
00:45:42,118 --> 00:45:45,751
and she offered to
and said she'd be willing to and...
709
00:45:45,817 --> 00:45:50,184
Before Pam left then to travel
to the Avery salvage yard,
710
00:45:50,250 --> 00:45:53,017
was she provided a map
or any other information?
711
00:45:53,084 --> 00:45:54,784
Yes. Yes, I gave her a map.
712
00:45:54,851 --> 00:45:57,250
What other information
was she provided, if you know?
713
00:45:57,317 --> 00:46:03,684
Scott had borrowed her... his camera
just in case they were to find something.
714
00:46:03,751 --> 00:46:07,851
You said that Scott had "borrowed"
Pam Sturm a camera, is that right?
715
00:46:07,917 --> 00:46:09,283
- Yes.
- But you mean "lent."
716
00:46:09,350 --> 00:46:11,450
- Had lent her, given her a camera?
- Yes.
717
00:46:11,517 --> 00:46:13,417
- A digital camera?
- Yes.
718
00:46:13,484 --> 00:46:16,684
He didn't give every one of those members
Saturday morning a camera, did he?
719
00:46:16,751 --> 00:46:17,851
No.
720
00:46:17,917 --> 00:46:19,751
He just gave it to Pam Sturm
721
00:46:19,817 --> 00:46:24,517
who he knew was gonna go out
to the Avery salvage yard.
722
00:46:24,584 --> 00:46:25,517
That's correct.
723
00:46:25,584 --> 00:46:27,350
That's the only person
he gave a camera to, right?
724
00:46:27,417 --> 00:46:28,784
Yes.
725
00:46:52,650 --> 00:46:55,751
[Wiegert] Hey, um,
kind of a change of plans here.
726
00:46:55,817 --> 00:46:56,817
[Remiker] OK.
727
00:46:56,884 --> 00:46:59,951
[Wiegert] The boss has got something
he wants us to do.
728
00:47:00,017 --> 00:47:01,450
[Remiker] OK.
729
00:47:01,517 --> 00:47:07,051
[Wiegert] He wants us to go back over
and re-interview Avery again.
730
00:47:07,118 --> 00:47:10,784
And the search party is out there
and he wants to ask them
731
00:47:10,851 --> 00:47:14,250
if they would allow us to have
the search party come on the property
732
00:47:14,317 --> 00:47:16,650
- and go through the junkyard.
- [Remiker] OK.
733
00:47:16,717 --> 00:47:18,084
[Wiegert] So if it's OK with you,
734
00:47:18,151 --> 00:47:20,517
we'll meet you over
at your sheriff's department.
735
00:47:20,584 --> 00:47:22,051
- [Remiker] OK.
- [Wiegert] If you don't mind?
736
00:47:22,118 --> 00:47:24,151
- Help us out today? Stop over.
- [Remiker] Yeah. That's fine.
737
00:47:54,650 --> 00:47:58,817
[Kratz] Ms. Sturm, were you familiar
with the Avery salvage property?
738
00:47:59,684 --> 00:48:01,917
No, I'm not... I wasn't at all.
739
00:48:03,051 --> 00:48:10,051
All I knew, it was a 40-acre plot
salvage yard for vehicles.
740
00:48:10,118 --> 00:48:13,218
Now, Ms. Sturm, prior to your arrival
at that location,
741
00:48:13,283 --> 00:48:18,450
had you had any contact or direction
from any law enforcement officials?
742
00:48:18,517 --> 00:48:19,650
No, sir, we didn't.
743
00:48:20,951 --> 00:48:24,650
Why don't you show us then,
where did you and Nikole start looking?
744
00:48:24,717 --> 00:48:26,584
[Sturm] We had searched all of these.
745
00:48:26,650 --> 00:48:30,784
Then we went down here south
and there were, like...
746
00:48:30,851 --> 00:48:32,617
you can see there's two rows here.
747
00:48:32,684 --> 00:48:36,283
So I searched the first row
and my daughter was on the second row.
748
00:48:36,350 --> 00:48:37,784
[Kratz] Let me stop you right there, Pam.
749
00:48:37,851 --> 00:48:40,250
Can you tell the jury
what you were looking for?
750
00:48:40,884 --> 00:48:43,817
We were looking for any trace of Teresa.
751
00:48:43,884 --> 00:48:47,450
Be the car... or herself.
752
00:48:47,517 --> 00:48:49,283
[Kratz] All right. OK.
753
00:48:49,350 --> 00:48:52,717
And after looking at those rows of cars,
where did you then look?
754
00:48:52,784 --> 00:48:57,151
[Sturm] I continued up here
and I saw these vehicles up here
755
00:48:57,218 --> 00:48:59,184
and this is like a ridge up here.
756
00:48:59,317 --> 00:49:03,383
So up on the top,
there's a little car path
757
00:49:03,450 --> 00:49:07,550
and you can see there's some vehicles here
and I thought, "I have to search up there.
758
00:49:07,617 --> 00:49:09,350
I have to search each and every one."
759
00:49:09,417 --> 00:49:10,517
[Kratz] And did you do that?
760
00:49:10,584 --> 00:49:14,951
So I went up there
and I went through, like, three cars
761
00:49:15,017 --> 00:49:17,084
and I came upon this car
762
00:49:17,151 --> 00:49:21,550
that had all these branches
on the top of it
763
00:49:21,617 --> 00:49:26,951
and leaning against it and there was an
old hood of a car leaning up against it
764
00:49:27,017 --> 00:49:32,184
and it was kind of bluish-green
and I thought,
765
00:49:32,250 --> 00:49:35,717
"This is really strange.
This is really strange."
766
00:49:35,784 --> 00:49:39,450
And it looked like a little SUV that,
like, I was looking for,
767
00:49:39,517 --> 00:49:42,817
a RAV4 Toyota SUV.
768
00:49:43,684 --> 00:49:46,684
And I went around
to the back of the vehicle
769
00:49:46,751 --> 00:49:48,984
and again there were branches
leaning up against it
770
00:49:49,051 --> 00:49:50,884
and I noticed that it said RAV4.
771
00:49:50,951 --> 00:49:55,417
Well, my heart starting going, you know,
"Oh, my goodness. Maybe this is it."
772
00:49:56,550 --> 00:49:59,350
- Because... OK. Sorry.
- Let me stop you right there, Pam.
773
00:50:02,118 --> 00:50:05,051
When you saw this, Ms. Sturm,
what did you do?
774
00:50:05,118 --> 00:50:08,684
I became very, very worried
for our safety.
775
00:50:10,417 --> 00:50:15,084
Because 90 percent,
this was probably Teresa's car
776
00:50:15,151 --> 00:50:16,584
and we're in danger.
777
00:50:17,350 --> 00:50:19,751
So I called Nikole's name.
778
00:50:20,283 --> 00:50:23,151
I think I maybe even screamed.
I shouldn't have, but I did.
779
00:50:23,218 --> 00:50:25,884
And I went running to the area
where she was.
780
00:50:25,951 --> 00:50:30,717
I said, "Nikole! Nikole! You have to come
and see this car. It must be her car."
781
00:50:30,784 --> 00:50:34,951
Did you attempt to verify
the identification of this vehicle?
782
00:50:35,017 --> 00:50:37,751
- Yes.
- And how was that done?
783
00:50:37,817 --> 00:50:42,951
My daughter Nikole brought her
cell phone along and we...
784
00:50:43,784 --> 00:50:45,218
I should back up.
785
00:50:45,283 --> 00:50:49,717
Ryan gave us a direct line to
Sheriff Pagel in case we found something.
786
00:50:49,784 --> 00:50:52,450
So I called Sheriff Pagel.
787
00:50:52,517 --> 00:50:55,017
And I said, "I think I found the vehicle."
788
00:50:56,717 --> 00:51:00,951
[Kratz] How long
from when you entered that property
789
00:51:01,017 --> 00:51:03,917
did it take you to find Teresa's vehicle?
790
00:51:05,984 --> 00:51:08,317
I believed we entered at ten to ten...
791
00:51:09,751 --> 00:51:13,650
and by 10:20 to 10:25,
we had found the vehicle.
792
00:51:15,218 --> 00:51:17,584
Ms. Sturm, do you know how many
vehicles are on this property?
793
00:51:17,650 --> 00:51:21,017
I didn't at the time. I had no idea.
794
00:51:22,417 --> 00:51:24,617
[Kratz] Looking at it now,
do you think you got lucky?
795
00:51:24,684 --> 00:51:27,118
Yeah. Well, not lucky.
796
00:51:27,184 --> 00:51:29,617
God showed us the way,
I do believe that.
797
00:51:29,684 --> 00:51:32,817
All right, do you think
looking at this exhibit now
798
00:51:32,884 --> 00:51:37,984
that you and your daughter Nicky could
have searched that entire salvage yard?
799
00:51:39,151 --> 00:51:42,350
We would've tried. We would've came back
the next day if we had to.
800
00:51:42,417 --> 00:51:43,450
[Kratz] All right.
801
00:51:45,550 --> 00:51:49,151
[Buting] I never believe and to this day
don't believe Ms. Sturm's
802
00:51:49,218 --> 00:51:51,650
"Holy Spirit guided me there" theory.
803
00:51:51,717 --> 00:51:54,584
Not that I don't believe
that that's possible.
804
00:51:55,383 --> 00:51:57,151
But I just don't believe her.
805
00:51:57,218 --> 00:52:01,118
I do not believe her at all. I never...
She just seemed too weird.
806
00:52:01,184 --> 00:52:02,817
- Right.
- And, um...
807
00:52:04,717 --> 00:52:07,984
You know, it's...
They went right to that thing.
808
00:52:08,051 --> 00:52:10,817
Somebody knew that vehicle was there
before they ever went there,
809
00:52:10,884 --> 00:52:12,017
I'm convinced of it.
810
00:52:12,084 --> 00:52:15,317
How do you think that truck
got on that property?
811
00:52:15,383 --> 00:52:18,218
Which way do you think they came in or...?
812
00:52:18,283 --> 00:52:23,484
Well, when I seen tail lights by me
and Chuck had seen headlights by him.
813
00:52:23,550 --> 00:52:25,550
I don't know who drove it.
814
00:52:25,617 --> 00:52:27,218
Which way was it pointed?
815
00:52:27,283 --> 00:52:29,484
- What?
- The truck.
816
00:52:29,550 --> 00:52:31,350
- I don't know.
- You don't know?
817
00:52:32,417 --> 00:52:37,951
What... Was there a different way in there
or... two ways into there or what?
818
00:52:38,017 --> 00:52:40,417
There's a bunch of ways in there.
There's the main road, there's by me,
819
00:52:40,484 --> 00:52:41,884
- there's in the pit.
- OK.
820
00:52:41,951 --> 00:52:44,051
What about this cop?
821
00:52:44,118 --> 00:52:46,584
- [Fassbender] Want to tell us about that?
- [Wiegert] Tell us about that.
822
00:52:46,650 --> 00:52:47,917
Tammy told me that.
823
00:52:47,984 --> 00:52:49,751
- Tammy told you?
- Yeah.
824
00:52:49,817 --> 00:52:51,751
She a friend of yours
or something or...?
825
00:52:51,817 --> 00:52:53,017
Yeah, I know her.
826
00:52:53,084 --> 00:52:55,484
What did she tell you?
827
00:52:55,550 --> 00:52:57,584
That... she heard...
828
00:52:57,650 --> 00:53:03,017
She told me that she'd heard
that a cop put it out there
829
00:53:03,084 --> 00:53:05,283
- and planted evidence.
- Put what out there?
830
00:53:05,350 --> 00:53:06,484
That vehicle.
831
00:53:06,550 --> 00:53:09,118
- And that's Teresa's vehicle?
- Yeah.
832
00:53:09,184 --> 00:53:12,450
So Tammy told you
that somebody told her...
833
00:53:12,517 --> 00:53:15,218
- Yeah.
- ...that a cop put that vehicle,
834
00:53:15,283 --> 00:53:19,617
- Teresa's vehicle, out on your property.
- Yeah.
835
00:53:23,017 --> 00:53:27,550
[Strang] One of the things
road patrol officers frequently do
836
00:53:27,617 --> 00:53:30,118
is call in to dispatch
837
00:53:30,184 --> 00:53:33,617
and give the dispatcher
the license plate number
838
00:53:33,684 --> 00:53:38,350
of a car they've stopped or a car that
looks out of place for some reason.
839
00:53:38,417 --> 00:53:40,250
- Correct?
- Yes, sir.
840
00:53:40,317 --> 00:53:42,517
And the dispatcher can get information
841
00:53:42,584 --> 00:53:46,417
about to whom a license plate
is registered.
842
00:53:46,484 --> 00:53:48,450
- Yes, sir.
- If the car is abandoned
843
00:53:48,517 --> 00:53:50,317
or there's nobody in the car,
844
00:53:50,383 --> 00:53:54,317
the registration tells you
who the owner presumably is.
845
00:53:54,383 --> 00:53:56,118
Yes, sir.
846
00:53:56,184 --> 00:54:01,218
I'm gonna ask you to listen,
if you would, to a short phone call.
847
00:54:04,650 --> 00:54:07,051
[woman] Manitowoc County Sheriff's
Department, this is Lynn.
848
00:54:07,118 --> 00:54:09,017
- [Colborn] Lynn.
- Hi, Andy.
849
00:54:09,084 --> 00:54:12,350
[Colborn] Can you run
Sam-William-Henry-582?
850
00:54:12,417 --> 00:54:15,051
[Lynn] OK.
It shows that she's a missing person.
851
00:54:15,118 --> 00:54:18,817
- And it lists to Teresa Halbach.
- [Colborn] OK.
852
00:54:18,884 --> 00:54:20,550
[Lynn] OK,
that's what you're looking for, Andy?
853
00:54:20,617 --> 00:54:21,784
[Colborn] Ninety-nine Toyota?
854
00:54:21,851 --> 00:54:23,650
- [Lynn] Yep.
- [Colborn] OK, thank you.
855
00:54:23,717 --> 00:54:25,283
[Lynn] You're so welcome. Bye-bye.
856
00:54:26,417 --> 00:54:31,650
[Strang] OK. What you're asking
the dispatch is to run a plate
857
00:54:31,717 --> 00:54:35,517
that's "Sam-William-Henry-582"?
Did I hear that correctly?
858
00:54:35,584 --> 00:54:36,383
Yes, sir.
859
00:54:36,450 --> 00:54:39,817
Sam-William-Henry
would be S-W-H-5-8-2?
860
00:54:39,884 --> 00:54:41,250
Yes.
861
00:54:42,817 --> 00:54:44,417
This license plate?
862
00:54:44,484 --> 00:54:45,650
Yes, sir.
863
00:54:48,650 --> 00:54:52,118
And the dispatcher tells you
that the plate comes back
864
00:54:52,184 --> 00:54:55,517
to a missing person or woman.
865
00:54:55,584 --> 00:54:56,617
Yes, sir.
866
00:54:57,484 --> 00:55:00,684
- Teresa Halbach.
- Yes, sir.
867
00:55:00,751 --> 00:55:05,550
And then you tell the dispatcher,
"Oh, '99 Toyota?"
868
00:55:08,118 --> 00:55:09,851
No, I thought she told me that.
869
00:55:11,617 --> 00:55:17,184
[Lynn] It shows that she's a missing
person. And it lists to Teresa Halbach.
870
00:55:17,250 --> 00:55:19,584
- [Colborn] OK.
- OK, that's what you're looking for, Andy?
871
00:55:19,650 --> 00:55:21,951
- [Colborn] Ninety-nine Toyota?
- [Lynn] Yep.
872
00:55:22,017 --> 00:55:24,917
- [Colborn] OK, thank you.
- [Lynn] You're so welcome. Bye-bye.
873
00:55:26,151 --> 00:55:28,584
Were you looking at these plates
when you called them in?
874
00:55:28,650 --> 00:55:30,017
No, sir.
875
00:55:36,650 --> 00:55:39,517
Do you have any recollection
of making that phone call?
876
00:55:42,984 --> 00:55:45,051
Yeah, I'm guessing
eleven-oh-three-oh-five.
877
00:55:45,118 --> 00:55:49,317
Probably after I received a phone call
from Investigator Wiegert
878
00:55:49,383 --> 00:55:52,184
letting me know
that there was a missing person.
879
00:55:53,151 --> 00:55:56,784
Investigator Wiegert, did he give you
the license plate number
880
00:55:56,851 --> 00:55:58,717
for Teresa Halbach when he called you?
881
00:56:00,450 --> 00:56:04,118
You know, I just don't remember the
exact content of our conversation then.
882
00:56:04,184 --> 00:56:05,817
- But you think...
- He had to have given it to me
883
00:56:05,884 --> 00:56:09,450
because I wouldn't have
had the number any other way.
884
00:56:09,517 --> 00:56:13,684
Well, you can understand
how someone listening to that
885
00:56:13,751 --> 00:56:19,317
might think that you
were calling in a license plate
886
00:56:19,383 --> 00:56:22,984
that you were looking at
on the back end of a 1999 Toyota.
887
00:56:25,550 --> 00:56:26,784
Yes.
888
00:56:27,884 --> 00:56:32,650
But there's no way you should've been
looking at Teresa Halbach's license plate
889
00:56:32,717 --> 00:56:37,450
on November three on the back end
of a 1999 Toyota.
890
00:56:37,517 --> 00:56:41,517
I shouldn't have been and I was not
looking at the license plate.
891
00:56:41,584 --> 00:56:47,317
Because you're aware now that the
first time that Toyota was reported found
892
00:56:47,383 --> 00:56:49,650
was two days later on November five.
893
00:56:51,118 --> 00:56:52,350
Yes, sir.
894
00:56:55,051 --> 00:56:58,051
[theme music plays]
895
00:56:58,085 --> 00:57:03,085
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com

==========EPISODE 6=============
1
00:00:13,117 --> 00:00:17,851
Brendan watches Steven Avery
take a butcher knife from the kitchen
2
00:00:17,918 --> 00:00:20,083
and stab Teresa Halbach in the stomach.
3
00:00:22,117 --> 00:00:24,117
What Steven Avery does then...
4
00:00:25,784 --> 00:00:28,517
while Teresa is still begging
for her life...
5
00:00:30,117 --> 00:00:32,651
is he hands the knife
to the 16-year-old boy
6
00:00:32,717 --> 00:00:34,918
and instructs him to cut her throat.
7
00:00:39,217 --> 00:00:42,684
Sixteen-year-old Brendan,
under the instruction of Steven Avery...
8
00:00:43,651 --> 00:00:46,451
cuts Teresa Halbach's throat,
9
00:00:46,517 --> 00:00:50,050
but she still doesn't die.
10
00:00:50,117 --> 00:00:53,150
There's additional information
11
00:00:53,217 --> 00:00:57,350
which includes manual strangulation
and gunshot wounds.
12
00:00:57,417 --> 00:01:01,050
After obtaining the information
that was obtained from Brendan,
13
00:01:01,117 --> 00:01:03,284
we felt that there might be areas
14
00:01:03,350 --> 00:01:06,884
that we needed to recheck
for blood evidence,
15
00:01:06,950 --> 00:01:10,050
for items used in the commission
of these crimes.
16
00:01:10,117 --> 00:01:15,350
And we are searching his residence and
searching the garage near his residence
17
00:01:15,417 --> 00:01:20,017
because we now know that the garage
was part of the crime scene.
18
00:01:20,851 --> 00:01:23,684
[male reporter] Is there any DNA evidence
backing up the kid's story?
19
00:01:23,751 --> 00:01:26,250
Yeah, we're not gonna comment on...
on that.
20
00:01:26,317 --> 00:01:31,017
We obviously have a lot of evidence
and I guess we can say that
21
00:01:31,083 --> 00:01:37,050
there is a substantial amount of
physical evidence that now makes sense.
22
00:01:38,217 --> 00:01:40,784
- [theme music plays]
- [geese honking]
23
00:02:41,490 --> 00:02:46,490
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
24
00:02:47,950 --> 00:02:51,184
The hardest thing about this case
is trying to figure out,
25
00:02:51,250 --> 00:02:57,017
now that we've gotten Brendan Dassey
out of the case, we think,
26
00:02:57,083 --> 00:03:01,617
unless they decide to call him
on rebuttal or something,
27
00:03:01,684 --> 00:03:04,217
how do we deal with the fact
that the jurors already know it all?
28
00:03:04,284 --> 00:03:08,684
It's a clever move by them to not
call Brendan in their case in chief.
29
00:03:08,751 --> 00:03:11,751
- He's not a good witness.
- Which we predicted months ago.
30
00:03:11,818 --> 00:03:14,250
He's, you know... even...
31
00:03:14,983 --> 00:03:21,484
once he starts incriminating himself
and Steve, he can't do that consistently.
32
00:03:21,551 --> 00:03:25,317
I mean, the story is changing dramatically
every time he tells it.
33
00:03:26,284 --> 00:03:30,217
So... they put it out there
in news conferences.
34
00:03:30,284 --> 00:03:33,451
The public knows about it.
They believe it.
35
00:03:33,517 --> 00:03:37,717
Um, they think it's the last nail
in Steven's coffin.
36
00:03:39,117 --> 00:03:41,517
And now the State leaves us
in a position
37
00:03:41,584 --> 00:03:44,517
- of shadowboxing. Um...
- Right.
38
00:03:44,584 --> 00:03:47,484
By not putting it in.
39
00:03:47,551 --> 00:03:49,918
I think... our best option
40
00:03:49,983 --> 00:03:52,983
out of a lot of not so great options is...
41
00:03:53,050 --> 00:03:58,918
is to work in ways to disprove this story
as we go, without putting the story in.
42
00:04:40,918 --> 00:04:42,818
[man] I got 18:26.
43
00:04:50,784 --> 00:04:53,451
[man 2] After we had made entry
into the garage,
44
00:04:53,517 --> 00:04:56,983
I had done initial overall photography.
45
00:04:58,717 --> 00:05:02,417
We then spent some time just kind of
walking around the garage, looking.
46
00:05:03,317 --> 00:05:06,150
[Kratz] Did you and other investigators
47
00:05:06,217 --> 00:05:09,350
- begin moving items within this garage?
- Yes.
48
00:05:09,417 --> 00:05:13,651
We basically started
in the northeast corner of the garage
49
00:05:13,717 --> 00:05:18,217
and began to remove items
to see if there was any obvious sign
50
00:05:18,284 --> 00:05:22,184
of potential trace evidence on them
or biological evidence.
51
00:05:22,250 --> 00:05:25,651
[Kratz] Are you telling this jury
that every one of those items
52
00:05:25,717 --> 00:05:28,983
was handled by law enforcement
and examined?
53
00:05:29,050 --> 00:05:30,751
[Heimerl] Virtually every item, yes.
54
00:05:32,017 --> 00:05:33,950
[Kratz] Next, item 266.
55
00:05:34,017 --> 00:05:38,317
Did you find anything near that compressor
that you thought was interesting?
56
00:05:38,384 --> 00:05:41,050
As we reached this area, I was on...
57
00:05:41,117 --> 00:05:43,017
I had to get onto my hands and my knees
58
00:05:43,083 --> 00:05:45,484
and utilized a flashlight
to look under the compressor.
59
00:05:45,551 --> 00:05:50,117
And I saw what appeared to be
a flattened or... a flattened bullet.
60
00:05:51,884 --> 00:05:54,851
[Kratz] I've actually zoomed in
to that area.
61
00:05:54,918 --> 00:05:56,584
Tell the jury what
we're looking at here, please.
62
00:05:56,651 --> 00:06:00,117
[Heimerl] The bullet right between
the tent and the scale.
63
00:06:00,884 --> 00:06:03,717
Let's look at exhibit number
2-7-0, please.
64
00:06:03,784 --> 00:06:05,818
Tell us what we're looking at here.
65
00:06:05,884 --> 00:06:10,751
[Heimerl] This is a medium view photograph
of what was ultimately identified
66
00:06:10,818 --> 00:06:14,983
with marker number 23: the bullet
that was found under the compressor.
67
00:06:15,050 --> 00:06:17,884
[Kratz] Can you identify the individual
in this photograph, please?
68
00:06:17,950 --> 00:06:22,083
[Heimerl] Detective Dave Remiker from
Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department.
69
00:06:24,117 --> 00:06:26,651
[Strang] November 6.
70
00:06:26,717 --> 00:06:30,818
I think that's the first time
you actually searched the garage
71
00:06:30,884 --> 00:06:34,950
rather than... simply sweeping through it
to look for Ms. Halbach?
72
00:06:36,050 --> 00:06:37,551
Yes, I believe so.
73
00:06:37,617 --> 00:06:42,250
You folks found some empty shell casings
74
00:06:42,317 --> 00:06:45,217
for what looked like .22 caliber rounds?
75
00:06:45,284 --> 00:06:48,884
- Yes.
- Ten of these? Something like that?
76
00:06:49,950 --> 00:06:51,950
- I think 11.
- Eleven?
77
00:06:52,017 --> 00:06:53,751
- I believe so.
- On the floor?
78
00:06:53,818 --> 00:06:54,918
Yes.
79
00:06:54,983 --> 00:06:59,818
Uh, where there are shell casings,
there may be bullets?
80
00:07:03,150 --> 00:07:06,651
- We found shell casings.
- Were you looking for bullets?
81
00:07:06,717 --> 00:07:08,983
We were looking for everything.
82
00:07:10,551 --> 00:07:12,617
Found no bullets
83
00:07:12,684 --> 00:07:17,851
in the search on November 6
of the garage.
84
00:07:17,918 --> 00:07:19,184
Correct.
85
00:07:19,250 --> 00:07:23,484
Found no bullets any other time
in Steven Avery's garage
86
00:07:23,551 --> 00:07:25,751
any time in November 2005.
87
00:07:26,551 --> 00:07:27,551
[Remiker] Correct.
88
00:07:27,617 --> 00:07:30,651
[Strang] It was March 2, 2006...
89
00:07:32,184 --> 00:07:37,651
and you were present when one bullet
fragment was found in that garage.
90
00:07:37,717 --> 00:07:38,884
[Remiker] Correct.
91
00:07:38,950 --> 00:07:43,184
[Strang] Again, March 1 and 2,
you were physically present both days.
92
00:07:44,350 --> 00:07:45,350
Yes.
93
00:07:45,417 --> 00:07:51,617
Did you see Lieutenant Lenk there on site
at the Averys' on either day?
94
00:07:51,684 --> 00:07:53,217
- In March?
- Yes.
95
00:07:54,150 --> 00:07:55,818
March 1 and March 2.
96
00:07:55,884 --> 00:07:58,584
Yeah, he was there. He was, um...
97
00:07:58,651 --> 00:08:01,217
- Yeah, he was there.
- Both days?
98
00:08:02,384 --> 00:08:04,317
I believe so. Yes.
99
00:08:06,918 --> 00:08:10,350
[Strang] By March, why do you need
any of the Manitowoc people?
100
00:08:10,417 --> 00:08:13,250
You've got two people charged with this.
101
00:08:13,317 --> 00:08:17,484
You're searching one garage
and one trailer.
102
00:08:18,651 --> 00:08:21,918
That's it. Uh...
103
00:08:21,983 --> 00:08:26,584
And you have a well-established team
of people outside Manitowoc County
104
00:08:26,651 --> 00:08:30,851
who now are intimately familiar
with this investigation.
105
00:08:30,918 --> 00:08:34,950
You need Manitowoc County
investigators for what?
106
00:08:35,017 --> 00:08:36,517
For what?
107
00:08:36,584 --> 00:08:38,684
On March 1st and March 2nd.
108
00:08:39,617 --> 00:08:41,250
[Buting] "Lieutenant Lenk."
109
00:08:41,317 --> 00:08:45,517
Is that his name logged in
on the second to the last line?
110
00:08:45,584 --> 00:08:47,451
[Fassbender] Correct.
111
00:08:47,517 --> 00:08:50,784
[Buting] Now, this search is the search
112
00:08:50,851 --> 00:08:53,651
where a couple of bullet fragments
were discovered, right?
113
00:08:53,717 --> 00:08:57,484
- Yes.
- Five months after the previous searches.
114
00:08:57,551 --> 00:08:59,217
Four months. I keep...
115
00:08:59,284 --> 00:09:01,083
My math's bad, I guess.
116
00:09:01,150 --> 00:09:02,284
- Four months?
- Yes.
117
00:09:02,350 --> 00:09:03,784
OK. What was it,
118
00:09:03,851 --> 00:09:08,384
five entries to his garage the week
of November 5th to the 12th?
119
00:09:08,451 --> 00:09:09,851
Correct.
120
00:09:09,918 --> 00:09:13,484
At that time, though,
none of the investigators knew
121
00:09:13,551 --> 00:09:18,384
that there would be evidence
that suggested that perhaps...
122
00:09:18,451 --> 00:09:21,551
Teresa Halbach had actually
been shot in the head.
123
00:09:21,617 --> 00:09:23,918
- That information came later.
- Correct.
124
00:09:23,983 --> 00:09:27,818
Shortly before this March 1st
and March 2nd search.
125
00:09:28,918 --> 00:09:31,983
I don't know. I'm not sure
when that information came.
126
00:09:32,050 --> 00:09:37,083
What I'm talking about here is
by March 1st and March 2nd of 2006,
127
00:09:37,150 --> 00:09:40,384
which are important dates in this
investigation. You know that, right?
128
00:09:40,451 --> 00:09:41,451
[Fassbender] Yes.
129
00:09:41,517 --> 00:09:43,117
Additional search warrants
were issued, right?
130
00:09:43,184 --> 00:09:44,250
Yes.
131
00:09:44,317 --> 00:09:48,350
And by that time,
through all of your investigation,
132
00:09:48,417 --> 00:09:51,717
you had found no physical evidence
133
00:09:51,784 --> 00:09:58,184
linking Teresa Halbach
to Mr. Avery's trailer or garage...
134
00:09:59,284 --> 00:10:01,417
right up to February 28th.
135
00:10:03,384 --> 00:10:05,751
I don't believe that's accurate.
136
00:10:05,818 --> 00:10:07,250
What'd you find?
137
00:10:07,317 --> 00:10:09,050
We found shell casings in the garage
138
00:10:09,117 --> 00:10:11,350
that did match up to a rifle
in the house.
139
00:10:11,417 --> 00:10:14,017
I mean, you found shells
all over the place.
140
00:10:14,083 --> 00:10:15,484
Forty acres, right?
141
00:10:15,617 --> 00:10:18,317
- Oh, certainly, yes.
- A junkyard.
142
00:10:18,384 --> 00:10:22,184
These people were sighting rifles,
you knew that. Shooting rabbits.
143
00:10:22,250 --> 00:10:27,317
The mere existence of shells
without a link to a particular body
144
00:10:27,384 --> 00:10:28,950
doesn't prove anything, does it?
145
00:10:29,717 --> 00:10:32,517
It could've been. You know, we just...
No. We didn't know.
146
00:10:32,584 --> 00:10:36,717
OK, so in short, then,
by March 1st and March 2nd...
147
00:10:38,484 --> 00:10:40,117
when those search warrants were issued...
148
00:10:41,250 --> 00:10:46,484
four months of investigation
had found not one shred
149
00:10:46,551 --> 00:10:51,083
of Teresa Halbach's DNA anywhere
150
00:10:51,150 --> 00:10:55,083
in Mr. Avery's trailer or garage.
151
00:10:55,150 --> 00:10:56,350
Correct.
152
00:10:56,417 --> 00:10:57,751
Thank you.
153
00:10:59,150 --> 00:11:01,584
Do you remember on that first search
154
00:11:01,651 --> 00:11:06,417
a note with Ms. Halbach's phone number
being seized
155
00:11:06,484 --> 00:11:10,851
- from Mr. Avery's computer table?
- Yes, I do.
156
00:11:10,918 --> 00:11:14,083
You recall now that that
was seized on November 5th?
157
00:11:14,150 --> 00:11:16,851
- Yes.
- Would you say that that is some evidence
158
00:11:16,918 --> 00:11:21,250
- that is obviously linked to Ms. Halbach?
- Yes.
159
00:11:21,317 --> 00:11:26,217
Also found on Mr. Avery's computer table
was a bill of sale.
160
00:11:26,284 --> 00:11:29,751
You recall that now being seized
on the 5th of November, don't you?
161
00:11:29,818 --> 00:11:32,950
- Yes, I do.
- Let me ask you, Mr. Fassbender,
162
00:11:33,017 --> 00:11:35,851
do you know how many items
of physical evidence
163
00:11:35,918 --> 00:11:41,818
were seized in this case alone,
the Avery homicide investigation?
164
00:11:41,884 --> 00:11:43,884
Upwards of 970.
165
00:11:43,950 --> 00:11:47,384
Can you remember all 970 items of evidence
that were seized?
166
00:11:47,451 --> 00:11:48,884
No, I can't.
167
00:11:49,651 --> 00:11:53,150
None of those exhibits ever show
168
00:11:53,217 --> 00:11:57,884
that Teresa was inside the trailer,
do they?
169
00:11:59,250 --> 00:12:00,284
No.
170
00:12:01,484 --> 00:12:03,651
Thank you. That's all I have.
171
00:12:03,717 --> 00:12:05,983
[Kratz] That's evidence
that Bobby provided, isn't that right?
172
00:12:06,050 --> 00:12:09,017
- That's correct.
- That's all I've got. Thank you, Judge.
173
00:12:09,083 --> 00:12:11,617
[scoffs]
174
00:12:11,684 --> 00:12:14,551
I object. Move to strike
the question and the answer
175
00:12:14,617 --> 00:12:15,950
'cause it's not the testimony.
176
00:12:16,017 --> 00:12:19,451
Bobby Dassey never said
he saw her in the trailer.
177
00:12:19,517 --> 00:12:20,884
I'm gonna sustain the objection.
178
00:12:20,950 --> 00:12:25,150
I think that's beyond
the scope of redirect.
179
00:12:33,451 --> 00:12:36,117
[indistinct chatter]
180
00:12:38,451 --> 00:12:39,651
- How's it going?
- Real good.
181
00:12:39,717 --> 00:12:41,050
- How you doing?
- Great.
182
00:12:42,284 --> 00:12:46,684
- Huh?
- They just started. The judge is in.
183
00:12:46,751 --> 00:12:48,150
Oh, yeah?
184
00:12:50,217 --> 00:12:53,050
Want me to hang your coat?
I can take your coat.
185
00:12:55,050 --> 00:12:56,284
Yeah.
186
00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:59,350
Go ahead.
187
00:13:00,918 --> 00:13:04,484
- Allan. Right here.
- [laughs] Wrong door.
188
00:13:07,083 --> 00:13:10,117
Court is already in session
so you need to be real quiet.
189
00:13:10,184 --> 00:13:11,517
Thank you.
190
00:13:17,284 --> 00:13:20,551
[woman] This is the top
of the left eye socket,
191
00:13:20,617 --> 00:13:25,417
the top of the right eye socket,
the left nasal bone.
192
00:13:25,484 --> 00:13:28,417
We also have the entire right cheek bone,
193
00:13:28,484 --> 00:13:31,350
as well as a portion
of the left cheek bone
194
00:13:31,417 --> 00:13:38,350
and a portion of bone that continues over
and above the opening for the left ear.
195
00:13:38,417 --> 00:13:40,350
[Fallon] And the next photograph?
196
00:13:40,417 --> 00:13:42,684
This is exhibit 3-8-4.
197
00:13:42,751 --> 00:13:48,350
A sampling of skull fragments,
two fragments in particular,
198
00:13:48,417 --> 00:13:53,083
showed defects or unnatural openings.
199
00:13:53,150 --> 00:13:57,083
This semi-circular defect here
200
00:13:57,150 --> 00:14:01,484
that has another smaller
unnatural opening here.
201
00:14:01,551 --> 00:14:05,284
[Fallon] Was there anything else
about this defect that was unusual?
202
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:08,451
The cranial bones were taken for x-ray
203
00:14:08,517 --> 00:14:11,517
and what I'd like
to call your attention to
204
00:14:11,584 --> 00:14:16,384
are these flecks,
called radio opaque particles.
205
00:14:16,451 --> 00:14:19,117
What does the presence
of the internal beveling,
206
00:14:19,184 --> 00:14:24,184
coupled with the localized radio opaque
particles, signify to you?
207
00:14:24,250 --> 00:14:30,551
What those defects look like signifies
what happens to skull bone
208
00:14:30,617 --> 00:14:34,451
when it's subjected
to a gunshot or gunshots.
209
00:14:34,517 --> 00:14:35,884
All right, doctor.
210
00:14:35,950 --> 00:14:40,384
Do you have an opinion as to the manner
of death of this individual?
211
00:14:40,451 --> 00:14:47,284
The manner of death in this case
was by homicidal violence.
212
00:15:04,083 --> 00:15:06,517
I told you at the beginning
of this case
213
00:15:06,584 --> 00:15:10,950
that we would be presenting not only
cause of death but manner of death.
214
00:15:11,017 --> 00:15:14,717
And when the jury has to put
this whole puzzle together,
215
00:15:14,784 --> 00:15:18,284
the expert opinions by people
like Leslie Eisenberg
216
00:15:18,350 --> 00:15:21,818
should all go a long way towards them
making their final conclusion
217
00:15:21,884 --> 00:15:25,784
as to who it was
who caused the death of Teresa Halbach.
218
00:15:50,117 --> 00:15:56,083
[Gahn] I would ask if Detective Wiegert
would bring you exhibit 237.
219
00:15:57,684 --> 00:16:02,417
And can you identify that exhibit
that's in front of you, Ms. Culhane?
220
00:16:02,484 --> 00:16:08,617
Yes. [clears throat]
This is crime lab item designation "FL"
221
00:16:08,684 --> 00:16:10,484
and it is a lead bullet fragment.
222
00:16:10,551 --> 00:16:13,083
And how did you process that bullet?
223
00:16:13,150 --> 00:16:17,851
In order to remove any residual DNA
that might have been on the bullet,
224
00:16:17,918 --> 00:16:19,717
I washed it.
225
00:16:19,784 --> 00:16:24,083
I put it in a test tube and washed it
with some buffer that we use
226
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:26,050
to extract the DNA.
227
00:16:26,117 --> 00:16:29,884
And the liquid is what I performed
the rest of my procedure on.
228
00:16:29,950 --> 00:16:35,451
And were you able to develop
a DNA profile from that washing
229
00:16:35,517 --> 00:16:39,551
- on item FL, the bullet?
- Yes.
230
00:16:39,617 --> 00:16:44,350
Do you have an opinion to a reasonable
degree of scientific certainty
231
00:16:44,417 --> 00:16:49,317
whether Teresa Halbach
is the source of the DNA
232
00:16:49,384 --> 00:16:52,350
on item FL, the bullet?
233
00:16:52,417 --> 00:16:56,217
Yes. I believe she is the source
of the DNA on the bullet.
234
00:16:58,818 --> 00:17:03,918
Um... let me ask you,
did this match differ in any way
235
00:17:03,983 --> 00:17:07,083
from the previous matches that you culled?
236
00:17:07,918 --> 00:17:08,983
Yes, it did.
237
00:17:09,050 --> 00:17:11,784
And could you explain to the jury
what happened?
238
00:17:11,851 --> 00:17:16,950
When we begin the extraction, we begin
what's called a manipulation control.
239
00:17:17,017 --> 00:17:20,217
And it's basically
a negative blank control.
240
00:17:20,284 --> 00:17:24,083
And it helps us monitor
if any unintentional DNA
241
00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:26,918
is introduced into the sample.
242
00:17:26,983 --> 00:17:28,717
During the extraction procedure,
243
00:17:28,784 --> 00:17:32,751
I inadvertently introduced my own DNA
into the negative control.
244
00:17:34,184 --> 00:17:38,451
[Gahn] Did that have any impact
on your interpretation of your results?
245
00:17:41,684 --> 00:17:47,651
It did not have any impact as far as
the profile from the evidence sample.
246
00:17:48,350 --> 00:17:53,451
It's just the fact that I introduced
my own DNA into the manipulation control.
247
00:17:54,551 --> 00:17:58,617
And how do you think your DNA profile
got into that control?
248
00:17:58,684 --> 00:18:01,117
I believe my DNA profile
was introduced
249
00:18:01,184 --> 00:18:04,818
during the extraction procedure
when I was talking.
250
00:18:04,884 --> 00:18:07,317
I was training two newer analysts,
251
00:18:07,384 --> 00:18:11,451
so I was explaining to them
what I was doing as I was setting it up.
252
00:18:11,517 --> 00:18:15,784
And apparently... I felt as if I was
far enough away from my work bench
253
00:18:15,851 --> 00:18:20,083
not to introduce my DNA,
but apparently I was incorrect.
254
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:21,918
[female reporter] That manipulation
control is designed
255
00:18:21,983 --> 00:18:23,784
- to catch a mistake that was made.
- Correct.
256
00:18:23,851 --> 00:18:27,050
So does that mean though that
a mistake couldn't have been made
257
00:18:27,117 --> 00:18:28,584
with the fragment itself?
258
00:18:28,651 --> 00:18:31,584
- That's what I'm... That's my question.
- No. No...
259
00:18:31,651 --> 00:18:33,317
- The testing...
- I mean, are you...
260
00:18:33,384 --> 00:18:35,451
- Do you feel you cleared that up then?
- Yes.
261
00:18:35,517 --> 00:18:39,117
Yes, I think it's clear that the profile
on the bullet was Teresa Halbach's.
262
00:18:39,184 --> 00:18:41,117
And the fact there was the contamination
263
00:18:41,184 --> 00:18:45,384
and Sherry Culhane's DNA profile
was in the control
264
00:18:45,451 --> 00:18:48,617
had nothing to do
with the DNA profile on the bullet.
265
00:18:48,684 --> 00:18:51,017
I'm not wording this properly.
I'm sorry.
266
00:18:51,083 --> 00:18:55,617
I mean, that Teresa's DNA couldn't have
somehow just gotten swabbed on there
267
00:18:55,684 --> 00:18:57,184
in the lab.
268
00:18:57,250 --> 00:18:59,784
Do you do understand what I'm saying?
On the fragment.
269
00:18:59,851 --> 00:19:03,884
- You know, that that mistake made...
- No. No, that mistake was not made.
270
00:19:03,950 --> 00:19:06,350
I know what you're saying.
That mistake was not made.
271
00:19:06,417 --> 00:19:10,317
When we argued, by the way, in last March
and filed a motion and said,
272
00:19:10,384 --> 00:19:13,017
"We want fair forensic testing.
273
00:19:13,083 --> 00:19:17,217
All we want is someone to be there
to observe this." They opposed it.
274
00:19:17,284 --> 00:19:19,684
They said, "No. We don't want anybody on...
275
00:19:19,751 --> 00:19:22,317
Oh, there's so much more potential
for contamination."
276
00:19:22,384 --> 00:19:23,751
That's what they said.
277
00:19:23,818 --> 00:19:26,451
That our person being there
would be more risk of contamination
278
00:19:26,517 --> 00:19:29,250
when she's contaminated it herself.
279
00:19:29,317 --> 00:19:32,150
And used it all up
so that we can't retest it.
280
00:19:33,584 --> 00:19:35,551
You know, that's a concern.
281
00:19:35,617 --> 00:19:38,117
Jerry, let me get this straight.
So you're saying that Halbach's DNA
282
00:19:38,184 --> 00:19:39,717
may have wound up on this bullet test
283
00:19:39,784 --> 00:19:43,751
because the DNA may have
already been in a test tube?
284
00:19:43,818 --> 00:19:50,017
The DNA... is so sensitive
that these contamination logs prove
285
00:19:50,083 --> 00:19:55,017
that they get contamination from cases
that aren't even in front of 'em.
286
00:19:55,083 --> 00:19:58,551
Cases that are put away,
locked up, done with,
287
00:19:58,617 --> 00:20:01,184
lo and behold, all of a sudden, bingo...
288
00:20:02,017 --> 00:20:05,417
they get someone else's profile.
289
00:20:05,484 --> 00:20:07,017
Where does that come from?
290
00:20:07,083 --> 00:20:08,884
They don't know.
291
00:20:09,617 --> 00:20:13,184
Where did her DNA come from
in that contaminated control?
292
00:20:13,250 --> 00:20:14,350
She doesn't know.
293
00:20:14,417 --> 00:20:18,050
First she says "talking."
Then she says "handling."
294
00:20:18,117 --> 00:20:19,117
They don't really know.
295
00:20:19,184 --> 00:20:21,950
All they know is she's the source,
but they don't know how it got there.
296
00:20:22,017 --> 00:20:24,284
And that's the same thing...
If you go through these logs,
297
00:20:24,350 --> 00:20:27,584
you'll see how many times
these errors come up
298
00:20:27,651 --> 00:20:31,451
and they really can't tell you
how it got on there.
299
00:20:31,517 --> 00:20:34,384
So in other words, if you don't know
where Culhane's DNA came from,
300
00:20:34,451 --> 00:20:36,617
you might not know
where Halbach's DNA came from.
301
00:20:36,684 --> 00:20:41,384
[Buting] That's right. Remember now, this
bullet wasn't even found in November.
302
00:20:41,451 --> 00:20:44,950
This bullet was found under
suspicious circumstances to begin with.
303
00:20:45,017 --> 00:20:50,417
So she's testing it four months
after all the other...
304
00:20:50,484 --> 00:20:52,717
after she does all these other tests.
305
00:20:52,784 --> 00:20:55,784
For some reason she still has the evidence
from those other tests.
306
00:20:56,884 --> 00:21:00,150
At her desk. At her bench.
307
00:21:03,083 --> 00:21:05,451
I'm showing you exhibit 341.
308
00:21:07,284 --> 00:21:10,818
Does that look, uh...
Does that form look familiar to you?
309
00:21:10,884 --> 00:21:12,017
Yes.
310
00:21:12,083 --> 00:21:14,651
This is something that's called
a case communication record.
311
00:21:14,717 --> 00:21:16,384
- Yes.
- And what you do is
312
00:21:16,451 --> 00:21:18,950
when you get a phone call from somebody,
313
00:21:19,017 --> 00:21:22,784
you'll be jotting notes
as to the gist of the conversation?
314
00:21:22,851 --> 00:21:25,250
- That's correct.
- And did you do that in this case?
315
00:21:25,317 --> 00:21:27,150
- Yes.
- Is that your initials at the top?
316
00:21:27,217 --> 00:21:28,950
- Yes.
- All right.
317
00:21:30,717 --> 00:21:34,551
Let me put this up on the Elmo, if I may.
318
00:21:35,484 --> 00:21:40,551
This is one of those phone messages
that you got from,
319
00:21:40,617 --> 00:21:43,751
- in this case, Mr. Fassbender. Correct?
- Yes.
320
00:21:43,818 --> 00:21:45,684
And he says there's gonna
be a couple of items
321
00:21:45,751 --> 00:21:48,317
- from the house and the garage, right?
- Right.
322
00:21:48,384 --> 00:21:51,184
And then he says, or you wrote down,
323
00:21:51,250 --> 00:21:55,784
"Try to put her in his house or garage."
Correct?
324
00:21:55,851 --> 00:21:57,284
Correct.
325
00:21:57,350 --> 00:22:00,451
So you're being told
before you do any of these tests
326
00:22:00,517 --> 00:22:04,517
that Mr. Fassbender
wants you to come up with results
327
00:22:04,584 --> 00:22:10,684
that put Teresa Halbach in Mr. Avery's
house or garage. Isn't that right?
328
00:22:12,484 --> 00:22:17,017
I had that information, but that
had no bearing on my analysis at all.
329
00:22:17,083 --> 00:22:20,384
Of course not.
But that's what you're being told to do.
330
00:22:20,451 --> 00:22:23,184
That was information in the investigation.
331
00:22:23,250 --> 00:22:26,484
That's what Mr. Fassbender told you
332
00:22:26,551 --> 00:22:30,851
he hoped you would be able to do
with your tests. Isn't that right?
333
00:22:30,918 --> 00:22:34,150
- Yeah, I assume so.
- OK.
334
00:22:35,050 --> 00:22:38,584
Let's go to the bullet for a minute
just to clear up a couple of things.
335
00:22:38,651 --> 00:22:41,551
To the eye,
you didn't see any blood visible.
336
00:22:41,617 --> 00:22:42,884
- Correct.
- So you can't really say
337
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:48,050
whether the DNA on that bullet came
from blood or some other source, can you?
338
00:22:48,784 --> 00:22:51,717
All I can say was that
it was nucleated cells.
339
00:22:51,784 --> 00:22:53,950
Which could mean blood
or any other source.
340
00:22:54,017 --> 00:22:55,451
Right.
341
00:22:55,517 --> 00:22:58,050
All right, now your lab's protocol,
342
00:22:58,117 --> 00:23:02,017
it recognizes that there may be some
contamination in these tests. Right?
343
00:23:02,083 --> 00:23:03,184
Yes.
344
00:23:03,250 --> 00:23:06,851
And it tells you that
if you go through these tests
345
00:23:06,918 --> 00:23:10,050
and the manipulation control
is contaminated,
346
00:23:10,117 --> 00:23:14,384
that you are to report it as inconclusive
for match purposes.
347
00:23:14,451 --> 00:23:15,983
Correct.
348
00:23:16,050 --> 00:23:19,983
Now here,
you ran this test on the bullet...
349
00:23:21,517 --> 00:23:25,918
and you got a result that showed the
manipulation control was contaminated.
350
00:23:25,983 --> 00:23:27,751
- Right?
- Correct.
351
00:23:28,484 --> 00:23:30,417
And according to protocol,
352
00:23:30,484 --> 00:23:35,717
you should've not said that that
was Teresa Halbach's DNA on the bullet.
353
00:23:35,784 --> 00:23:39,217
Your protocol told you that
you were to report it as inconclusive.
354
00:23:39,284 --> 00:23:41,818
- Isn't that right?
- Yes.
355
00:23:41,884 --> 00:23:43,484
And if that happens,
usually what you do
356
00:23:43,551 --> 00:23:46,584
is you try and re-extract
and run it again.
357
00:23:46,651 --> 00:23:50,751
- Yes.
- But in this case, it was a one-time deal.
358
00:23:50,818 --> 00:23:54,417
You put that bullet into a buffer
and you took whatever sample there was
359
00:23:54,484 --> 00:23:56,751
- and you ran it all.
- Yes.
360
00:23:56,818 --> 00:23:59,784
- So you could not redo the test.
- That's correct.
361
00:23:59,851 --> 00:24:04,551
And if the test came back inconclusive...
362
00:24:07,818 --> 00:24:14,350
you would not be able to put Teresa
Halbach in Mr. Avery's garage at any time.
363
00:24:14,417 --> 00:24:17,918
Right? Like Mr. Fassbender asked.
364
00:24:20,884 --> 00:24:24,584
- There were reasons why...
- I'll get to that.
365
00:24:24,651 --> 00:24:25,918
My point is this:
366
00:24:26,918 --> 00:24:31,484
this is the only time
in your entire career
367
00:24:31,551 --> 00:24:35,818
you have ever filed
a deviation of protocol
368
00:24:35,884 --> 00:24:39,384
so that you could make a call
and include somebody, isn't it?
369
00:24:40,651 --> 00:24:44,884
The deviation that I requested
was appropriate for this situation.
370
00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:49,384
- It was OK'd and it was reported.
- But, ma'am...
371
00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:54,584
you did not disclose in that report,
372
00:24:54,651 --> 00:24:56,083
that official report,
373
00:24:56,150 --> 00:25:01,050
that courts and juries and judges
and lawyers and everybody else relies on,
374
00:25:01,117 --> 00:25:04,784
you did not disclose
that in order to make that call,
375
00:25:04,851 --> 00:25:08,684
you had to do something so rare,
you've never done it before, did you?
376
00:25:08,751 --> 00:25:10,284
No, I did not.
377
00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:13,050
And you didn't put that in there
because if you did,
378
00:25:13,117 --> 00:25:17,484
you wouldn't be able to satisfy
Mr. Fassbender's request
379
00:25:17,551 --> 00:25:20,784
that you put Teresa Halbach
in Steven Avery's garage. Right?
380
00:25:20,851 --> 00:25:22,384
That's not correct.
381
00:25:23,818 --> 00:25:26,551
Well, let's close with this:
382
00:25:27,217 --> 00:25:31,117
other than that bullet,
all your other tests,
383
00:25:31,184 --> 00:25:35,584
none of them put Teresa Halbach
ever in his garage or his house
384
00:25:35,651 --> 00:25:38,417
- or any of his vehicles, right?
- Correct.
385
00:25:38,484 --> 00:25:40,050
Thank you.
386
00:25:42,484 --> 00:25:45,818
If it's not a big deal,
and it's a good sample,
387
00:25:45,884 --> 00:25:48,451
then why is the rule
that you should toss it?
388
00:25:48,517 --> 00:25:51,517
Because I think the rule...
Well, I don't think anyone tossed it here.
389
00:25:51,584 --> 00:25:54,017
The rule is a...
390
00:25:54,083 --> 00:25:57,884
And I think as Sherry stated,
90 percent of the time, 99 percent,
391
00:25:57,950 --> 00:26:01,684
you know, is followed. You need that
guideline. You need that standard.
392
00:26:01,751 --> 00:26:06,150
But when you're dealing with
such sensitive, sensitive technology,
393
00:26:06,217 --> 00:26:09,217
you have to allow
an element of common sense
394
00:26:09,284 --> 00:26:12,751
and this clearly called for it,
and Sherry made the right call.
395
00:26:12,818 --> 00:26:15,017
Does it happen often? No.
396
00:26:15,083 --> 00:26:19,818
And I think that shows the consistency
and how good the scientific community is,
397
00:26:19,884 --> 00:26:23,317
that it's not something
that has to be called upon often.
398
00:26:23,384 --> 00:26:27,150
There was no sample left to redo,
399
00:26:27,217 --> 00:26:30,751
and it just had no impact at all
400
00:26:30,818 --> 00:26:36,317
on the interpretation of Teresa Halbach's
DNA profile on that bullet.
401
00:26:36,384 --> 00:26:41,584
I... I know you feel that's clear,
but it's up to the jury, you know,
402
00:26:41,651 --> 00:26:44,684
12 people sitting in that box,
to see whether it's,
403
00:26:44,751 --> 00:26:46,451
whether or not it's clear.
404
00:26:46,517 --> 00:26:48,918
- Certainly.
- And we probably all understand that,
405
00:26:48,983 --> 00:26:53,017
understand your point,
um, but I mean, does...
406
00:26:53,083 --> 00:26:56,484
Do you really think
that played very well with the jury?
407
00:26:56,551 --> 00:26:59,651
Sure. I believe so.
I think they can understand it.
408
00:26:59,717 --> 00:27:02,950
I think they're also normal,
common sense people
409
00:27:03,017 --> 00:27:06,884
and they're gonna look back and say,
"Yeah, it makes complete sense."
410
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:09,517
She knew it was her profile
411
00:27:09,584 --> 00:27:12,117
and she knew she was teaching
at the time and talking,
412
00:27:12,184 --> 00:27:13,751
so I mean, it all makes sense.
413
00:27:13,818 --> 00:27:17,584
That's what I'm trying to get across.
If you want to be very rigid
414
00:27:17,651 --> 00:27:19,517
and say the protocol is the protocol
415
00:27:19,584 --> 00:27:21,884
and you can never deviate
from this whatsoever,
416
00:27:21,950 --> 00:27:25,417
I don't think most people believe
that's how life operates.
417
00:27:25,484 --> 00:27:30,050
That sometimes you do
have to deviate just to make sense.
418
00:27:38,417 --> 00:27:40,150
[Steven on phone]<i> Somethin' ain't right.</i>
419
00:27:40,217 --> 00:27:41,417
<i>That's all I know.</i>
420
00:27:46,184 --> 00:27:48,517
<i>They checked that property over.</i>
421
00:27:48,584 --> 00:27:50,851
<i>They didn't find nothin'.</i>
422
00:27:54,983 --> 00:27:56,983
<i>That's all I know.</i>
423
00:27:57,050 --> 00:27:59,184
<i>Then they're finding something.</i>
424
00:27:59,250 --> 00:28:00,983
<i>I don't know no more than that.</i>
425
00:28:01,884 --> 00:28:03,717
<i>How can I know any more than that?</i>
426
00:28:13,918 --> 00:28:16,751
You're the captain.
You get the captain's chair.
427
00:28:16,818 --> 00:28:18,884
- [woman] Where's the Morgan?
- [laughter]
428
00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:23,217
[Allan] I say, where is the blood?
429
00:28:24,184 --> 00:28:25,918
Now you cut a deer, uh...
430
00:28:25,983 --> 00:28:27,617
Say you're butchering a deer
431
00:28:27,684 --> 00:28:29,584
- and here's the table.
- [Strang] Yeah.
432
00:28:29,651 --> 00:28:33,651
You're gonna have...
on the floor and all...
433
00:28:33,717 --> 00:28:34,983
- I cut a lot of 'em up.
- Yeah.
434
00:28:35,050 --> 00:28:36,250
[Strang] No, I understand.
435
00:28:36,317 --> 00:28:40,851
There's about five quarts of blood
in the human body and, you know,
436
00:28:40,918 --> 00:28:43,983
there's no evidence of that,
but we certainly can argue
437
00:28:44,050 --> 00:28:47,983
and we are going to argue
"where is the blood?"
438
00:28:48,050 --> 00:28:51,983
Well, Jerry shoots me right now,
something's gonna come out of me.
439
00:28:52,050 --> 00:28:54,384
- [Strang] Maybe yes, maybe no.
- [laughter]
440
00:28:54,451 --> 00:28:56,117
Maybe a little bullshit.
441
00:28:56,184 --> 00:28:58,083
[Strang] That's a lot
of bullshit coming out.
442
00:28:58,150 --> 00:29:00,751
- [woman] More ways than one.
- [laughter]
443
00:29:00,818 --> 00:29:02,184
I won't shoot you. Don't worry.
444
00:29:05,784 --> 00:29:07,451
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
445
00:29:09,184 --> 00:29:12,384
High velocity spatter,
you standing over somebody...
446
00:29:12,451 --> 00:29:15,017
[imitates gunshot] it goes...
447
00:29:15,083 --> 00:29:19,150
- All over and it's tiny, tiny little...
- It's tiny, it's fat, it spreads,
448
00:29:19,217 --> 00:29:20,983
it's just gonna, like, cover all the junk.
449
00:29:21,050 --> 00:29:22,584
[Buting] The more cluttered it is,
450
00:29:22,651 --> 00:29:26,584
the harder it is going to be
to clean up high velocity spatter.
451
00:29:26,651 --> 00:29:28,684
[Strang] Yeah. I mean,
it's real small droplets.
452
00:29:28,751 --> 00:29:31,317
You will not be able
to find every bit of it.
453
00:29:32,517 --> 00:29:35,950
[Buting] Let's talk about some
specific results we haven't heard.
454
00:29:36,017 --> 00:29:38,983
Gonna put on exhibit 237 right now.
455
00:29:39,050 --> 00:29:41,284
See that crack that
sort of runs north-south?
456
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:47,117
Law enforcement actually took a jack
hammer and tore up concrete chunks, right?
457
00:29:47,851 --> 00:29:49,384
That was my understanding.
458
00:29:49,451 --> 00:29:51,451
[Buting] And they did that
because they thought,
459
00:29:51,517 --> 00:29:54,751
"Well, if the victim
had been killed here,
460
00:29:54,818 --> 00:29:58,551
perhaps her blood would've
soaked into those cracks," right?
461
00:29:58,617 --> 00:30:00,250
I assume so.
462
00:30:00,317 --> 00:30:04,150
Did you find Teresa Halbach's DNA
on any of those swabs?
463
00:30:04,217 --> 00:30:06,017
No, I did not.
464
00:30:06,083 --> 00:30:12,484
If somebody had cleaned that garage floor
with bleach before the police came,
465
00:30:12,551 --> 00:30:14,884
you would not expect to find any DNA,
would you?
466
00:30:14,950 --> 00:30:16,017
[Culhane] No, I wouldn't.
467
00:30:16,083 --> 00:30:20,551
[Buting] But in this case, you did
find DNA. You found Mr. Avery's own DNA.
468
00:30:20,617 --> 00:30:21,851
That's correct.
469
00:30:23,484 --> 00:30:26,617
[Baetz] She was shot a number of times.
470
00:30:26,684 --> 00:30:30,584
There would be massive pools of blood.
It wasn't there.
471
00:30:30,651 --> 00:30:35,417
Steven, I don't believe, is capable
of sanitizing that house.
472
00:30:35,484 --> 00:30:38,584
Very few evidence technicians
473
00:30:38,651 --> 00:30:43,651
would be capable of fully sanitizing
an area like that.
474
00:30:43,717 --> 00:30:46,584
And they know what to hide
and how to hide it.
475
00:30:46,651 --> 00:30:49,117
I don't think Steven could do that.
476
00:30:49,184 --> 00:30:51,617
[Buting] You checked
item DD, .22 caliber gun.
477
00:30:51,684 --> 00:30:53,584
- That's a rifle, right?
- [Culhane] Yes.
478
00:30:53,651 --> 00:30:56,484
You know that if someone shoots
another human being with a gun
479
00:30:56,551 --> 00:30:59,150
that's very close to them,
there may be blowback,
480
00:30:59,217 --> 00:31:01,551
spatter of blood onto that weapon?
481
00:31:02,717 --> 00:31:04,284
I assume that's possible.
482
00:31:04,350 --> 00:31:06,184
Well, that's what you were looking for.
483
00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:08,484
I was simply looking
for blood stains, yes.
484
00:31:08,551 --> 00:31:10,417
- On the barrel.
- Correct.
485
00:31:11,284 --> 00:31:13,184
- And you found none.
- Correct.
486
00:31:13,250 --> 00:31:15,484
You never found any
of Teresa Halbach's DNA
487
00:31:15,551 --> 00:31:18,384
on any kind of mattress
or bedding, did you?
488
00:31:19,684 --> 00:31:21,851
I don't believe I examined
any mattress or bedding.
489
00:31:21,918 --> 00:31:25,651
OK. So none of that
was even sent to you, right?
490
00:31:25,717 --> 00:31:27,184
Correct.
491
00:31:28,484 --> 00:31:30,250
You never found any DNA
of Teresa Halbach's
492
00:31:30,317 --> 00:31:33,150
- on any carpet in his house, did you?
- No.
493
00:31:33,217 --> 00:31:36,284
There was a stain that was found
that appeared to be a blood drop
494
00:31:36,350 --> 00:31:39,551
on a bathroom floor. Right?
495
00:31:39,617 --> 00:31:42,017
There were several items
on a bathroom floor.
496
00:31:42,083 --> 00:31:43,851
I don't know which one
you're referring to.
497
00:31:43,918 --> 00:31:45,517
Well, let's put 'em all together.
498
00:31:45,584 --> 00:31:49,083
All the bathroom items, the floor,
the vanity, the sink,
499
00:31:49,150 --> 00:31:50,717
- you tested all of those?
- Correct.
500
00:31:50,784 --> 00:31:53,250
None of them had Teresa Halbach's
blood on it, did they?
501
00:31:53,317 --> 00:31:54,350
No.
502
00:31:54,417 --> 00:31:57,250
You tested many knives
that were sent to you, right?
503
00:31:57,317 --> 00:31:58,717
- Yes.
- I see at least seven
504
00:31:58,784 --> 00:32:02,551
- just in the May 8th report. Right?
- Yes.
505
00:32:02,617 --> 00:32:05,918
- No DNA of Teresa Halbach's.
- Correct.
506
00:32:07,117 --> 00:32:08,684
By the way...
507
00:32:08,751 --> 00:32:12,950
in all of this evidence
that you've tested, all of it,
508
00:32:13,017 --> 00:32:16,451
did you ever find any DNA
509
00:32:16,517 --> 00:32:21,250
of a gentleman named
Brendan Dassey anywhere?
510
00:32:21,317 --> 00:32:23,818
- In all of your tests?
- No, I did not.
511
00:32:25,818 --> 00:32:28,117
Not one shred, right?
512
00:32:28,184 --> 00:32:31,317
- No, I did not find his DNA.
- And you had his profile.
513
00:32:31,384 --> 00:32:33,217
Yes, I did.
514
00:32:33,284 --> 00:32:35,451
[male reporter] In March of '06,
we heard you in this room
515
00:32:35,517 --> 00:32:39,484
say that you believed Teresa Halbach
was stabbed in Steven Avery's trailer
516
00:32:39,551 --> 00:32:43,117
and we heard versions of Steven Avery's
involvement in this case,
517
00:32:43,184 --> 00:32:45,184
attacking her in the trailer.
518
00:32:45,250 --> 00:32:48,384
Um, do you believe...
519
00:32:48,451 --> 00:32:50,884
Do you...
I didn't hear you present evidence
520
00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:54,184
as to where exactly you believe
parts of this crime were committed.
521
00:32:54,250 --> 00:32:56,451
[Kratz] Yeah,
and until my closing argument,
522
00:32:56,517 --> 00:32:59,117
you're not gonna hear a summary from me
523
00:32:59,184 --> 00:33:03,651
as to how I believe
that this entire crime occurred.
524
00:33:03,717 --> 00:33:09,918
And let me also just remind you that
there is another case that is pending
525
00:33:09,983 --> 00:33:12,617
at this time,
the Brendan Dassey case,
526
00:33:12,684 --> 00:33:18,050
which may or may not be something
that's raised in this prosecution.
527
00:33:18,117 --> 00:33:21,150
If it is not,
some of those details you may not hear.
528
00:33:21,217 --> 00:33:25,250
Is that just the nature
of having a circumstantial case? Um...
529
00:33:25,317 --> 00:33:27,217
Part of the trick of prosecuting a case
530
00:33:27,284 --> 00:33:29,417
- of that nature?
- I don't necessarily think this is a trick
531
00:33:29,484 --> 00:33:31,417
and I don't necessarily
think it's circumstantial.
532
00:33:31,484 --> 00:33:35,818
We have lots and lots
of scientific evidence in this case
533
00:33:35,884 --> 00:33:39,317
that points to one individual
having committed the crime
534
00:33:39,384 --> 00:33:42,617
and I'm confident that the verdict will...
will speak the truth.
535
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:49,950
[Buting] Let's see,
we've had 18 days of testimony.
536
00:33:50,017 --> 00:33:54,818
- [Strang] Mm-hm.
- At least 15 or 16 of those days,
537
00:33:54,884 --> 00:33:59,083
we have been able to bring out a theme
of our defense again and again.
538
00:33:59,150 --> 00:34:00,250
And that's remarkable.
539
00:34:00,317 --> 00:34:03,884
But it still all comes down to...
540
00:34:03,950 --> 00:34:07,651
a key in his bedroom
on the seventh search,
541
00:34:07,717 --> 00:34:12,083
bones outside of his bedroom when
there's a perfectly good working smelter
542
00:34:12,150 --> 00:34:14,083
that would be a much better place to burn,
543
00:34:14,150 --> 00:34:17,184
- blood in the RAV4...
- His.
544
00:34:17,250 --> 00:34:19,784
- His. His blood in the RAV4.
- [Strang laughs]
545
00:34:19,851 --> 00:34:23,117
And a contaminated bullet in the garage.
546
00:34:23,184 --> 00:34:24,983
But even there, in describing these,
547
00:34:25,050 --> 00:34:29,350
you're already doing some
of the explaining that we've gotta do
548
00:34:29,417 --> 00:34:31,551
and let me put it this way:
549
00:34:31,617 --> 00:34:37,751
if ever someone's bones are found 20 feet
out my bedroom window in my backyard,
550
00:34:37,818 --> 00:34:42,851
- I'm gonna be a worried guy.
- [laughs] Yeah, I would be, too.
551
00:34:58,150 --> 00:35:01,384
There were no entire bones
that were found,
552
00:35:01,451 --> 00:35:08,250
but at least a fragment or more
of almost every bone below the neck
553
00:35:08,317 --> 00:35:11,083
was recovered in that burn pit.
554
00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:13,184
[Fallon] Did you find evidence
of any human bone
555
00:35:13,250 --> 00:35:15,017
identified as being collected from a site
556
00:35:15,083 --> 00:35:18,350
other than the burn pit
behind the defendant's garage?
557
00:35:18,417 --> 00:35:21,184
[Eisenberg] Human bone also was collected
558
00:35:21,250 --> 00:35:26,017
from what was designated
"burn barrel number two."
559
00:35:27,384 --> 00:35:30,184
Now, you did offer an opinion
560
00:35:30,250 --> 00:35:36,451
that you believe the location
for the primary burning episode
561
00:35:36,517 --> 00:35:40,551
was the burn pit behind the defendant's
garage, is that correct?
562
00:35:40,617 --> 00:35:42,217
That is correct.
563
00:35:42,851 --> 00:35:45,117
[Strang] There was a third site,
was there not?
564
00:35:45,184 --> 00:35:46,184
Yes.
565
00:35:46,250 --> 00:35:49,684
- And this would be the quarry pile.
- Yes, sir.
566
00:35:49,751 --> 00:35:54,484
You found in the material
from the quarry pile
567
00:35:54,551 --> 00:35:58,918
two fragments that appeared to you
to be pelvic bone.
568
00:35:59,050 --> 00:36:00,451
[Eisenberg] That's correct.
569
00:36:00,517 --> 00:36:05,184
You suspected them
of being human pelvic bone.
570
00:36:05,250 --> 00:36:06,551
That's correct.
571
00:36:06,617 --> 00:36:13,017
The charring and calcined condition
that you saw was essentially consistent
572
00:36:13,083 --> 00:36:16,250
with the charring
and the calcined condition
573
00:36:16,317 --> 00:36:20,851
in the Janda burn barrel
and behind Steven Avery's garage.
574
00:36:20,918 --> 00:36:24,484
- [Eisenberg] That is correct, sir.
- Nowhere did you find evidence
575
00:36:24,551 --> 00:36:27,350
that you were looking at bone fragments
from more than one body.
576
00:36:27,417 --> 00:36:29,050
That is correct, sir.
577
00:36:29,117 --> 00:36:33,317
So what you conclude
is that by human agency,
578
00:36:33,384 --> 00:36:37,250
bone fragments here were moved.
579
00:36:37,317 --> 00:36:41,584
Some bone fragments identified
as human had been moved.
580
00:36:41,651 --> 00:36:45,684
- That's correct.
- All right. Um...
581
00:36:45,751 --> 00:36:48,751
The vast majority
of the human bone fragments
582
00:36:48,818 --> 00:36:51,384
was found behind Steven Avery's garage.
583
00:36:51,451 --> 00:36:53,350
[Eisenberg] That's correct.
584
00:36:53,417 --> 00:36:56,684
Why were they inconsistent
with human bone fragments
585
00:36:56,751 --> 00:36:59,617
that could've been moved
to that site after burning?
586
00:36:59,684 --> 00:37:06,350
I would expect to see some breakage
to some fragments with that transport
587
00:37:06,417 --> 00:37:09,217
and I did not see anything like that.
588
00:37:09,284 --> 00:37:16,083
Well, we do know that the very recovery
of burnt bone fragments
589
00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:20,317
from behind Mr. Avery's garage
involved shoveling. Correct?
590
00:37:20,384 --> 00:37:23,350
- That's correct.
- Transport to a sifting screen.
591
00:37:23,417 --> 00:37:25,751
- Yes, sir.
- Sifting on the screen.
592
00:37:25,818 --> 00:37:26,818
That's correct.
593
00:37:26,884 --> 00:37:30,017
So you're not able to say
that the bone fragments you found
594
00:37:30,083 --> 00:37:34,350
are inconsistent with having been
transported to the burn area
595
00:37:34,417 --> 00:37:36,317
and poured out there.
596
00:37:36,384 --> 00:37:41,217
Based on the volume of human bone
fragments behind the garage,
597
00:37:41,284 --> 00:37:47,184
I find it highly unlikely that
that was not the primary burn location.
598
00:37:47,250 --> 00:37:53,317
All right. But I guess that rests
on an opinion that transport in a barrel
599
00:37:53,384 --> 00:37:58,851
or some other container
and being poured out
600
00:37:58,918 --> 00:38:05,117
would've done more damage to those human
bone fragments than shoveling, sifting,
601
00:38:05,184 --> 00:38:08,617
putting into a box and transporting
to Madison would've done?
602
00:38:08,684 --> 00:38:12,751
- I really don't know. I don't know.
- You don't know one way or the other?
603
00:38:12,818 --> 00:38:14,617
That's correct.
604
00:38:14,684 --> 00:38:18,417
And you cannot reasonably rule out
605
00:38:18,484 --> 00:38:22,250
another possible burn site, can you?
606
00:38:22,317 --> 00:38:25,651
Based on the information I have
at hand, I cannot.
607
00:38:25,717 --> 00:38:26,818
That's all I have.
608
00:38:33,217 --> 00:38:36,317
[indistinct chatter]
609
00:38:49,684 --> 00:38:55,050
Mr. Ertl, showing you exhibit number 160,
can you identify that, please?
610
00:38:58,150 --> 00:39:02,751
It's an email to and from
Tom Fassbender and myself.
611
00:39:02,818 --> 00:39:06,317
All right. And in this email, you state,
"In regards to the burn pit,
612
00:39:06,384 --> 00:39:09,684
our involvement began with a request
to use our sifting equipment.
613
00:39:09,751 --> 00:39:12,250
The scene had obviously
been altered at that point."
614
00:39:12,317 --> 00:39:14,117
- Is that right?
- Correct.
615
00:39:14,184 --> 00:39:17,017
And then would you go on and read
the next sentence, please?
616
00:39:17,083 --> 00:39:20,150
"Had we been working any of these scenes
from start to finish,
617
00:39:20,217 --> 00:39:25,350
there would likely have been
more thorough photo record done by us.
618
00:39:25,417 --> 00:39:26,784
However, under the circumstances,
619
00:39:26,851 --> 00:39:28,818
we were merely able
to provide technical assistance
620
00:39:28,884 --> 00:39:31,117
rather than complete scene processing."
621
00:39:31,184 --> 00:39:37,017
OK. More typically, if you're called to
the scene to process potential evidence,
622
00:39:37,083 --> 00:39:39,717
you're able to do so
from start to finish, right?
623
00:39:40,918 --> 00:39:45,384
I'd say in the majority of cases,
when we arrive at the scene...
624
00:39:46,484 --> 00:39:51,150
we are given over control
and we take the lead.
625
00:39:52,184 --> 00:39:56,451
To your knowledge, did Ms. Fassbender
call a forensic anthropologist
626
00:39:56,517 --> 00:39:59,184
out to the scene of the burn pit?
627
00:40:00,050 --> 00:40:02,551
- Not to my knowledge.
- OK.
628
00:40:03,451 --> 00:40:09,217
And this area, the whole area
that was excavated was about how big?
629
00:40:11,983 --> 00:40:14,950
Probably roughly the size
of this table I'm sitting at.
630
00:40:15,751 --> 00:40:17,983
[Buting] And when you'd bring
over a shovel here or there,
631
00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:21,918
nobody kept track of where exactly
in that area
632
00:40:21,983 --> 00:40:25,784
any particular suspected bone
may have been, right?
633
00:40:25,851 --> 00:40:31,317
No. Everything that was collected
in this area was placed together in a box.
634
00:40:31,384 --> 00:40:35,651
- This area being that four by five feet...
- This four by five foot ash pile
635
00:40:35,717 --> 00:40:37,717
was placed together in a box.
636
00:40:38,918 --> 00:40:42,150
There was no systematic approach
637
00:40:42,217 --> 00:40:46,551
to the collection of the evidence
at first processing...
638
00:40:46,617 --> 00:40:49,317
uh, from what I saw.
639
00:40:49,384 --> 00:40:52,617
I know there was no grid imposed
at that time
640
00:40:52,684 --> 00:40:55,451
during the initial excavation.
641
00:40:55,517 --> 00:41:01,184
Um, I was informed that shovels
were used in order to do that,
642
00:41:01,250 --> 00:41:06,851
and it wasn't, shall we say,
a more forensic archaeological approach.
643
00:41:06,918 --> 00:41:10,083
OK, so other than nitpicking,
why does this matter?
644
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:11,250
Why does it matter?
645
00:41:11,317 --> 00:41:16,384
Well, it matters as far as being able
to tell things about the circumstances
646
00:41:16,451 --> 00:41:19,950
surrounding the burn of the body.
Where the body was burned.
647
00:41:20,017 --> 00:41:23,918
Was it moved?
Is this the actual location or not?
648
00:41:23,983 --> 00:41:29,050
And based on the recovery method
that was used here,
649
00:41:29,117 --> 00:41:36,050
are you able to offer an opinion about
where these human remains were burned?
650
00:41:36,117 --> 00:41:38,617
- No, I'm not.
- Can you agree
651
00:41:38,684 --> 00:41:41,651
with Dr. Eisenberg's opinion
652
00:41:41,717 --> 00:41:46,717
that probably the area
behind Mr. Avery's garage
653
00:41:46,784 --> 00:41:49,384
was the original burn site?
654
00:41:49,451 --> 00:41:51,751
- No.
- Why not?
655
00:41:51,818 --> 00:41:54,784
I've been involved in cases
where human cremains
656
00:41:54,851 --> 00:41:58,551
have been burned in one location
and moved to another location.
657
00:41:58,617 --> 00:42:02,317
And in those cases, in fact,
658
00:42:02,384 --> 00:42:07,784
the actual location
where the bones have been moved to,
659
00:42:07,851 --> 00:42:11,884
tends to be the location
where most of the remains are.
660
00:42:13,217 --> 00:42:17,217
[Strang] The dispute is not whether the
bones were moved after they were burned.
661
00:42:17,284 --> 00:42:21,950
They were. I don't think any reasonable
person would disagree with that.
662
00:42:22,017 --> 00:42:24,818
But, you know, the key issue is
663
00:42:24,884 --> 00:42:28,551
the State says they were burned
behind Steven's place
664
00:42:28,617 --> 00:42:31,317
and then a few of them
were moved from there.
665
00:42:31,384 --> 00:42:35,617
We say they most likely
were burned somewhere else.
666
00:42:35,684 --> 00:42:42,017
There were better burn sites
to cremate a body to that condition.
667
00:42:42,083 --> 00:42:45,617
And then somebody who knew
the cops would be very interested
668
00:42:45,684 --> 00:42:48,484
in pinning this on Steven,
dumped most of the bones,
669
00:42:48,551 --> 00:42:51,651
probably thought he was
dumping all of the bones
670
00:42:51,717 --> 00:42:55,451
in a pile in Steven's burn area
and then sort of sprink...
671
00:42:55,517 --> 00:42:59,451
you know, sprinkled them around in
the grass so there'd be no missing them.
672
00:42:59,517 --> 00:43:01,451
Um...
673
00:43:01,517 --> 00:43:04,784
And then put the burn barrel
back in its place,
674
00:43:04,851 --> 00:43:10,517
not knowing that a few of the bones
remained in the muck and ash
675
00:43:10,584 --> 00:43:13,017
in the Janda burn barrel.
676
00:43:16,918 --> 00:43:19,684
[Steven on phone]<i> I try to rack my brain</i>
<i>and think and think,</i>
677
00:43:19,751 --> 00:43:21,717
<i>"Who's doing this to me?"</i>
678
00:43:21,784 --> 00:43:23,284
<i>I can't figure it out.</i>
679
00:43:25,584 --> 00:43:27,484
<i>I still come up to a dead end.</i>
680
00:43:30,117 --> 00:43:33,117
<i>Just like the last case,
I couldn't figure it out.</i>
681
00:43:38,684 --> 00:43:40,150
I'm not in there.
682
00:43:44,717 --> 00:43:47,150
- [Allan] What time you got?
- [Dolores] Five after.
683
00:43:47,217 --> 00:43:49,050
[Allan] Five after already?
684
00:43:50,284 --> 00:43:53,818
Good thing it ain't an emergency.
[laughs]
685
00:44:02,684 --> 00:44:05,884
[Allan] Hey, that's hard on your diabetes.
686
00:44:05,950 --> 00:44:07,417
I don't care.
687
00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:10,818
[door opens]
688
00:44:14,484 --> 00:44:17,551
- [woman] You can go in now.
- OK. Come on.
689
00:44:49,517 --> 00:44:53,918
[man] This is the rear cargo area
of the Toyota RAV4.
690
00:44:53,983 --> 00:44:57,384
In this area, there are numerous stains,
691
00:44:57,451 --> 00:45:03,117
and they all are, basically they're
described as contact transfer stains.
692
00:45:03,184 --> 00:45:07,017
[Gahn] Describe these stains that you
observed in this portion of the vehicle.
693
00:45:07,083 --> 00:45:10,083
[Stahlke] This stain right here,
this is a...
694
00:45:10,150 --> 00:45:16,717
just a classic example of bloody hair
transferring onto an unstained surface.
695
00:45:16,784 --> 00:45:18,818
It is... has enough blood there
696
00:45:18,884 --> 00:45:22,751
that it also shows a bit of a flow pattern
off of the bottom of that.
697
00:45:22,818 --> 00:45:28,150
But you can see that it is thicker here
and as the length draws out,
698
00:45:28,217 --> 00:45:29,417
it comes to a point.
699
00:45:29,484 --> 00:45:34,083
This is indicative of bloody hair,
transferring the...
700
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:39,217
blood from those...
from that head hair onto this surface.
701
00:45:48,150 --> 00:45:50,784
The blood in the RAV4, frankly, helps us.
702
00:45:50,851 --> 00:45:52,384
Her blood.
703
00:45:52,451 --> 00:45:54,717
Helps us a lot.
704
00:45:54,784 --> 00:45:59,417
Because if he killed her in the garage
or killed her in his own house somewhere
705
00:45:59,484 --> 00:46:04,017
or nearby, he doesn't need to use the RAV4
to carry her body over to the burn pit
706
00:46:04,083 --> 00:46:06,784
if that's where
you're saying she was burned.
707
00:46:06,851 --> 00:46:08,584
The only reason you would
put her body in the car
708
00:46:08,651 --> 00:46:13,150
is if you're gonna take it somewhere
farther than your own backyard burn pit.
709
00:46:13,217 --> 00:46:15,717
[clears throat] And that's
further evidence, we think...
710
00:46:16,751 --> 00:46:21,684
that goes to show
she was not burned where they found her.
711
00:46:21,751 --> 00:46:24,717
That she was... wherever she was killed,
712
00:46:24,784 --> 00:46:30,651
she was thrown in the back of the...
the RAV4 and taken someplace to be burned.
713
00:46:34,617 --> 00:46:36,983
[Kratz] The State will call Scott Tadych
to the stand.
714
00:46:41,851 --> 00:46:46,417
It was the fire that I remembered
most of that day.
715
00:46:46,484 --> 00:46:48,384
[Kratz] All right, let's back up
just a little bit.
716
00:46:48,451 --> 00:46:50,983
Would you tell the jury
what you did that afternoon, please?
717
00:46:51,050 --> 00:46:53,551
That morning I was up at my mother's,
she had surgery.
718
00:46:53,617 --> 00:46:56,517
And then I left her
and I went to the woods hunting.
719
00:46:56,584 --> 00:46:58,884
I went to my trailer,
then I went to the woods hunting.
720
00:46:59,017 --> 00:47:01,651
[Kratz] About what time was it
you got out into the woods?
721
00:47:01,717 --> 00:47:03,384
[Tadych] About 3:00.
722
00:47:04,717 --> 00:47:11,284
On your way to deer hunting,
that would be just before 3:00 p.m.,
723
00:47:11,350 --> 00:47:14,517
- did you observe anybody on the roadway?
- Yes, I did.
724
00:47:14,584 --> 00:47:17,551
I saw Bobby Dassey on highway 147.
725
00:47:17,617 --> 00:47:20,784
I was going west and he was going east.
726
00:47:21,651 --> 00:47:25,751
Later that night, did you return
to the Janda property?
727
00:47:25,818 --> 00:47:27,250
- Yes, I did.
- Could you tell the jury
728
00:47:27,317 --> 00:47:29,884
- what you saw at that time, please?
- I saw a big fire.
729
00:47:30,818 --> 00:47:33,184
And can you tell the jury
where you saw the fire, please?
730
00:47:33,918 --> 00:47:36,584
- Right there.
- Are you able to estimate
731
00:47:36,651 --> 00:47:42,484
how high or how tall the flames were
as you were watching there about 7:45?
732
00:47:42,551 --> 00:47:44,717
They were almost as tall as the garage.
733
00:47:47,050 --> 00:47:50,050
- All right. So...
- Eight, ten feet. I don't know.
734
00:47:50,117 --> 00:47:52,617
Ten feet, maybe.
Ten feet tall is what the flames were.
735
00:47:52,684 --> 00:47:54,284
- Big fire.
- It's a big fire.
736
00:47:54,350 --> 00:47:55,651
All right.
737
00:47:56,784 --> 00:47:59,684
Did you see Steven Avery
standing next to or near that fire?
738
00:48:00,851 --> 00:48:02,117
Yes, I did.
739
00:48:04,784 --> 00:48:10,617
You remember October 31, 2005 because
you skipped work entirely that day.
740
00:48:10,684 --> 00:48:13,950
I didn't skip work. I took vacation
that day to go to be with my mother.
741
00:48:14,017 --> 00:48:20,417
Other than your mother,
who would've seen you on October 31st
742
00:48:20,484 --> 00:48:23,784
before you say Bobby Dassey saw you
743
00:48:23,851 --> 00:48:29,050
as the two of you drive past one another
on highway 147?
744
00:48:29,117 --> 00:48:33,117
Nobody. Just... I went
from the hospital to my trailer.
745
00:48:33,184 --> 00:48:37,818
You get home, you very quickly
get ready to go off deer hunting.
746
00:48:37,884 --> 00:48:39,150
Yes.
747
00:48:39,217 --> 00:48:42,184
On your way to hunting
is when you see Bobby Dassey.
748
00:48:42,250 --> 00:48:43,784
Correct.
749
00:48:43,851 --> 00:48:50,484
And you got home from the hospital
at about 3:15 that afternoon,
750
00:48:50,551 --> 00:48:52,484
- you say, to your home?
- No.
751
00:48:52,551 --> 00:48:56,983
I got home from the hospital
between 2:30 and quarter to 3:00.
752
00:48:57,818 --> 00:49:00,950
And that's your recollection today,
753
00:49:01,017 --> 00:49:05,083
oh, 15, 16 months after the events?
754
00:49:05,150 --> 00:49:06,918
- Yes.
- All right.
755
00:49:06,983 --> 00:49:11,651
Do you remember talking to a couple
of law enforcement officers about this
756
00:49:11,717 --> 00:49:17,083
back on, uh... November 29, 2005?
757
00:49:18,551 --> 00:49:19,818
Yes.
758
00:49:20,417 --> 00:49:23,317
And do you remember
what you told them then
759
00:49:23,384 --> 00:49:27,284
about when you got home from the hospital?
760
00:49:28,918 --> 00:49:30,350
No, I don't recall.
761
00:49:31,150 --> 00:49:32,851
I'll show you exhibit 356,
762
00:49:32,918 --> 00:49:37,184
which is a Division of Criminal
Investigation report.
763
00:49:37,250 --> 00:49:40,050
The second paragraph
may be the most helpful,
764
00:49:40,117 --> 00:49:44,284
which you're welcome to read to yourself,
any or all of that report.
765
00:49:48,784 --> 00:49:52,617
- Did that help refresh your recollection?
- Yeah, it did.
766
00:49:53,517 --> 00:49:58,517
Did you tell the police on November 29
that you arrived home at 3:15?
767
00:49:58,584 --> 00:49:59,551
I may have.
768
00:50:01,050 --> 00:50:03,517
Well, do you remember
telling them that or not?
769
00:50:05,317 --> 00:50:07,950
No, I don't remember telling them that.
It's been such a long time.
770
00:50:08,017 --> 00:50:12,950
Do you think maybe your recollection
back on November 29, 2005,
771
00:50:13,017 --> 00:50:15,083
was maybe a little better
than it is today?
772
00:50:15,150 --> 00:50:16,717
Yeah.
773
00:50:16,784 --> 00:50:20,017
It was just one month after the events
in question at that point.
774
00:50:20,083 --> 00:50:21,050
Right.
775
00:50:21,950 --> 00:50:26,317
Was November 29 also the day
that you told the police
776
00:50:26,384 --> 00:50:28,551
that the flames were three feet high?
777
00:50:30,250 --> 00:50:31,417
Must have.
778
00:50:32,584 --> 00:50:37,784
And sometime around the time
you talked to Investigator Dedering
779
00:50:37,851 --> 00:50:39,717
on the occasion we just described,
780
00:50:39,784 --> 00:50:44,284
were you trying to sell
one of the Dassey boys' .22s
781
00:50:44,350 --> 00:50:46,584
to a man named Jay Mathis at work?
782
00:50:47,551 --> 00:50:49,417
- No.
- You weren't?
783
00:50:54,150 --> 00:50:57,684
[Strang] You had,
I think, said that on Halloween
784
00:50:57,751 --> 00:51:00,950
you see Ms. Halbach walking towards
your Uncle Steven's trailer?
785
00:51:01,017 --> 00:51:02,217
Yes.
786
00:51:03,851 --> 00:51:08,350
Not too long after that, you leave
the house with your bow to go hunting.
787
00:51:08,417 --> 00:51:09,751
Yes.
788
00:51:09,818 --> 00:51:14,184
As you drove off then to go deer hunting,
it's what, 2:45 or 3:00,
789
00:51:14,250 --> 00:51:16,651
- somewhere in that range?
- Yes.
790
00:51:17,651 --> 00:51:20,818
- Anybody see you as you're going hunting?
- Yes.
791
00:51:20,884 --> 00:51:22,751
- Who?
- Scott Tadych.
792
00:51:22,818 --> 00:51:24,184
- Scott Tadych?
- Yes.
793
00:51:24,250 --> 00:51:26,851
OK. What you told Investigator Dedering
794
00:51:26,918 --> 00:51:31,751
is that Mr. Tadych would be able to verify
precisely what time he had seen you?
795
00:51:31,818 --> 00:51:33,751
- Yes.
- Why did you think that?
796
00:51:33,818 --> 00:51:36,551
Maybe he looked at his clock in his truck.
797
00:51:36,617 --> 00:51:39,451
Had you talked with Mr. Tadych
about whether he could
798
00:51:39,517 --> 00:51:42,317
- verify precisely when he saw you?
- No.
799
00:51:44,250 --> 00:51:47,551
You were just hoping or guessing
that maybe he could?
800
00:51:47,617 --> 00:51:49,184
Yes.
801
00:51:51,117 --> 00:51:55,484
We had two people
who alibied only themselves.
802
00:51:55,551 --> 00:51:56,918
They alibied each other.
803
00:51:56,983 --> 00:52:01,083
Nobody else saw them
during this critical time period.
804
00:52:01,150 --> 00:52:04,851
They were on the property,
they had access, they...
805
00:52:04,918 --> 00:52:11,150
One of them was directly contradicted
by an independent witness...
806
00:52:11,217 --> 00:52:17,384
um... as to the critical time
of when she was supposedly last seen.
807
00:52:17,451 --> 00:52:21,918
What time did you find that
you got to the end of Avery Road
808
00:52:21,983 --> 00:52:23,717
where you would drop the Dassey boys off?
809
00:52:24,551 --> 00:52:28,784
Um, between 3:30 and 4:00... Or 3:40.
810
00:52:28,851 --> 00:52:31,184
- Between 3:30 and 3:40?
- Yes.
811
00:52:31,250 --> 00:52:32,317
And how do you know that?
812
00:52:34,651 --> 00:52:38,150
'Cause it was about the same time
every day. Same route.
813
00:52:39,150 --> 00:52:40,083
OK.
814
00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:45,617
During the week that began on Monday,
October 31, 2005,
815
00:52:45,684 --> 00:52:52,017
do you remember seeing anything that,
you know, you remembered later
816
00:52:52,083 --> 00:52:55,918
when you dropped the Dassey boys off
Monday that week?
817
00:52:56,950 --> 00:53:01,083
I, um, remember seeing a woman
taking photographs.
818
00:53:02,684 --> 00:53:05,017
Could you tell what the woman
was taking photographs of?
819
00:53:05,083 --> 00:53:06,384
A van.
820
00:53:06,451 --> 00:53:10,184
OK, so and again, that would've been
about when? What time of day?
821
00:53:10,250 --> 00:53:13,983
3:30. I'm sorry, 3:30 to 3:40.
822
00:53:14,050 --> 00:53:15,584
That's all I have. Thank you.
823
00:53:16,184 --> 00:53:19,050
And I assume you're trying to sort of
poke holes in the State's timeline,
824
00:53:19,117 --> 00:53:20,451
is that what that was all about?
825
00:53:20,517 --> 00:53:24,451
[Strang] The implicit premise in your
question is that the State has a timeline
826
00:53:24,517 --> 00:53:25,983
and we're sitting poking holes.
827
00:53:26,050 --> 00:53:30,250
I think this is the most reliable person
to offer a timeline.
828
00:53:30,317 --> 00:53:33,017
She is not connected
to any of the parties.
829
00:53:33,083 --> 00:53:37,784
She, as a matter of employment,
had a very good reason
830
00:53:37,851 --> 00:53:42,083
to know what the time was
within about a ten minute window.
831
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:44,751
And I'm surprised that it's the Defense
832
00:53:44,818 --> 00:53:50,083
who had to call this witness
to try to establish
833
00:53:50,150 --> 00:53:52,317
a reliable idea about time.
834
00:53:52,384 --> 00:53:54,818
[Buting] Except that the time
doesn't fit with their theory.
835
00:53:54,884 --> 00:53:57,284
- That's the problem.
- Well, that's kind of what I'm getting at.
836
00:53:57,350 --> 00:54:00,851
The time doesn't fit
with their Brendan Dassey theory.
837
00:54:00,918 --> 00:54:03,517
I don't know that they've actually said
when this all happened.
838
00:54:03,584 --> 00:54:07,384
They did say during the whole Dassey,
you know, scenario
839
00:54:07,451 --> 00:54:11,484
that he got off the bus, he got the mail,
rode over and could hear the screams.
840
00:54:11,551 --> 00:54:14,217
And this really is a problem for that.
841
00:54:14,284 --> 00:54:19,184
[Strang] Bobby Dassey testified here
that at about 2:45 in the afternoon,
842
00:54:19,250 --> 00:54:22,784
he sees the female photographer
out the window
843
00:54:22,851 --> 00:54:26,717
and she appears to be taking photographs.
844
00:54:26,784 --> 00:54:30,517
And then sees her walking towards
Mr. Avery's trailer.
845
00:54:31,350 --> 00:54:34,184
Takes a shower,
doesn't see her afterward.
846
00:54:34,250 --> 00:54:38,584
How does this help Steve Avery? I mean...
So if what this defense said...
847
00:54:38,651 --> 00:54:41,584
I mean, what the prosecution
says happened, happened an hour later?
848
00:54:41,651 --> 00:54:43,551
I mean, I...
That's kind of what I'm getting at.
849
00:54:43,617 --> 00:54:45,517
Standing alone outside
the Brendan Dassey house...
850
00:54:45,584 --> 00:54:47,950
[Buting] Listen to the argument
that Mr. Kratz made
851
00:54:48,017 --> 00:54:52,684
on why he thinks that charge of
false imprisonment shouldn't be dismissed.
852
00:54:52,751 --> 00:54:55,350
What was it based primarily on?
853
00:54:55,417 --> 00:54:58,184
One witness. Bobby Dassey.
854
00:55:00,484 --> 00:55:03,784
This witness today,
with no interest whatsoever,
855
00:55:03,851 --> 00:55:08,517
has a completely different timeline
that would not fit Mr. Dassey.
856
00:55:17,584 --> 00:55:19,284
[Steven on phone]
<i>The evidence don't make no sense.</i>
857
00:55:20,584 --> 00:55:22,617
<i>The State ain't gotta prove nothin'.</i>
858
00:55:24,384 --> 00:55:26,818
<i>A innocent person
always gotta prove his self.</i>
859
00:55:27,717 --> 00:55:31,050
<i>And how do you prove the
Sheriff's Department's doing something?</i>
860
00:55:33,083 --> 00:55:35,083
<i>I got a hunch that's gonna be hard to do.</i>
861
00:55:38,818 --> 00:55:44,184
[Strang] No sane lawyer looks forward
to presenting an argument to a jury
862
00:55:44,250 --> 00:55:46,350
that the police framed his client.
863
00:55:46,417 --> 00:55:49,517
No sane lawyer
looks forward to doing that.
864
00:55:49,584 --> 00:55:53,684
You know, the police... many people,
outside of large cities, at least,
865
00:55:53,751 --> 00:55:56,050
are raised to believe are the good guys.
866
00:55:56,117 --> 00:56:02,684
And for many Americans,
their experiences with the police
867
00:56:02,751 --> 00:56:06,918
essentially confirm the idea
that the police are the good guys.
868
00:56:07,851 --> 00:56:14,451
So when you... When you confront the...
869
00:56:15,250 --> 00:56:20,851
the need to present a defense
that your client was framed and worse yet,
870
00:56:20,918 --> 00:56:25,884
framed by law enforcement officers,
you're not happy.
871
00:56:25,918 --> 00:56:27,950
The doorway where he comes out...
872
00:56:28,017 --> 00:56:29,417
[Buting] One of the things
that the State argued
873
00:56:29,484 --> 00:56:34,384
was that it would've taken
a wide ranging conspiracy
874
00:56:34,451 --> 00:56:36,484
of so many people to pull this off
875
00:56:36,551 --> 00:56:39,983
and that there's just no way
this could be possible.
876
00:56:40,050 --> 00:56:41,851
But in fact, that's not true.
877
00:56:41,918 --> 00:56:45,684
Really, two people could've
done this easily enough
878
00:56:45,751 --> 00:56:47,651
if they had the motive to do it.
879
00:56:47,717 --> 00:56:49,217
Maybe one, even.
880
00:56:50,317 --> 00:56:53,184
And the whole argument,
"Well, why would they risk doing this
881
00:56:53,250 --> 00:56:55,083
and risk getting caught?"
882
00:56:55,150 --> 00:56:57,284
You have to understand,
883
00:56:57,350 --> 00:57:03,017
they probably would have no fear
of ever being caught doing this.
884
00:57:04,284 --> 00:57:08,417
You know? Who better than a police officer
would know how to frame somebody?
885
00:57:09,184 --> 00:57:11,784
[bailiff] Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony
886
00:57:11,851 --> 00:57:13,983
you shall give in the matter
now before the court be the truth,
887
00:57:14,050 --> 00:57:16,184
the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
888
00:57:16,250 --> 00:57:17,884
- I do.
- Please be seated.
889
00:57:19,184 --> 00:57:22,050
Please state your name
and spell your last name for the record.
890
00:57:22,117 --> 00:57:25,384
James M. Lenk. L-E-N-K.
891
00:57:26,684 --> 00:57:29,684
[theme music plays]
892
00:57:29,718 --> 00:57:34,718
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
==========EPISODE 7=============
1
00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,767
I want to emphasize
that the investigation
2
00:00:21,834 --> 00:00:26,400
is being conducted by the Calumet County
Sheriff's Department,
3
00:00:26,467 --> 00:00:30,067
the State of Wisconsin,
Division of Criminal Investigation,
4
00:00:30,133 --> 00:00:33,868
and the FBI is also
going to be assisting us.
5
00:00:34,868 --> 00:00:40,334
The Manitowoc County Sheriff's
Department's role in this investigation
6
00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,968
was to provide resources for us
when they were needed.
7
00:00:45,033 --> 00:00:50,234
As we needed items on the property
8
00:00:50,300 --> 00:00:55,300
to conduct searches,
they provided that piece of equipment
9
00:00:55,367 --> 00:00:59,434
and that's their role
and their only role in this investigation.
10
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:10,634
They had Stevie picked,
as far as I'm concerned, right away.
11
00:01:11,667 --> 00:01:13,367
They set him up.
12
00:01:14,601 --> 00:01:15,868
Right from the beginning.
13
00:01:15,934 --> 00:01:18,868
But they said, "Oh, he's not no suspect."
What was he?
14
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:25,367
They didn't find nothing down that...
by his trailer for three or four days.
15
00:01:25,434 --> 00:01:28,033
Then all of a sudden stuff starts...
16
00:01:28,734 --> 00:01:31,400
"Oh, we found this" and "We found that."
17
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,501
And then the Manitowoc cops found the key.
18
00:01:36,234 --> 00:01:40,868
But they weren't supposed to be
investigating this at all. Right?
19
00:02:44,304 --> 00:02:49,304
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
20
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,567
Rolling up
to Steve Avery's residence.
21
00:03:34,133 --> 00:03:36,801
This is the bedroom. Steve Avery's.
22
00:03:38,534 --> 00:03:41,667
It was told to me that
no Manitowoc County deputy
23
00:03:41,734 --> 00:03:44,601
should be alone on the property.
24
00:03:44,667 --> 00:03:47,067
Investigator Wiegert told me
my responsibility
25
00:03:47,133 --> 00:03:51,200
would be to go with them
into the Steve Avery trailer
26
00:03:51,267 --> 00:03:53,834
and to document what they were doing
27
00:03:53,901 --> 00:03:58,801
and if evidence was seized by them,
to take custody of all the evidence.
28
00:03:58,868 --> 00:04:02,234
Now you said that you were teamed up
with other officers.
29
00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:04,200
Do you remember who was in your team?
30
00:04:04,267 --> 00:04:09,133
Yes, it was Lieutenant Jim Lenk from
the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department,
31
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,400
Sergeant Andy Colborn from
the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department
32
00:04:13,467 --> 00:04:18,801
and Detective Dave Remiker from
the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department.
33
00:04:18,868 --> 00:04:22,934
You knew that
the district attorneys told those officers
34
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,667
not to be alone on any property, right?
35
00:04:25,734 --> 00:04:27,167
- Yes.
- Mischaracterization, Judge.
36
00:04:27,234 --> 00:04:29,067
He said the Manitowoc County
District Attorney.
37
00:04:29,133 --> 00:04:31,567
I don't particularly care
which district attorney.
38
00:04:31,634 --> 00:04:33,601
It's a district attorney, all right?
39
00:04:33,667 --> 00:04:35,334
- You knew that.
- Yes.
40
00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,434
And you knew that if anything, of all
the places that they should not be alone,
41
00:04:39,501 --> 00:04:41,767
it would be in Mr. Avery's trailer, right?
42
00:04:41,834 --> 00:04:43,667
We did not know that on that day.
43
00:04:44,501 --> 00:04:47,400
Mr. Avery was the one
who was suing them, right?
44
00:04:47,467 --> 00:04:48,567
You knew that?
45
00:04:48,634 --> 00:04:50,834
- I was aware of that fact, yes.
- You knew that. That's right.
46
00:04:50,901 --> 00:04:54,868
And you knew that's why Manitowoc
transferred authority
47
00:04:54,934 --> 00:04:57,601
- over to Calumet, right?
- Yes.
48
00:04:57,667 --> 00:04:59,634
It was because of
this man right here, right?
49
00:04:59,701 --> 00:05:00,734
I believe that's correct.
50
00:05:00,801 --> 00:05:03,501
And it was this man right here's trailer
that you were in.
51
00:05:03,567 --> 00:05:06,834
- Yes.
- And so that, of all places,
52
00:05:06,901 --> 00:05:09,100
you knew was important
that you make sure
53
00:05:09,167 --> 00:05:11,400
that these Manitowoc officers
not be alone.
54
00:05:11,467 --> 00:05:12,501
Correct.
55
00:05:12,567 --> 00:05:14,667
And so you kept an eye on them,
didn't you?
56
00:05:14,734 --> 00:05:17,300
I was watching
what they were doing, yes.
57
00:05:17,367 --> 00:05:23,100
Had you ever, in any other search
in your entire career...
58
00:05:24,033 --> 00:05:27,501
had to act like a babysitter
or a watch dog
59
00:05:27,567 --> 00:05:30,100
for the officers
who were conducting a search?
60
00:05:30,167 --> 00:05:32,300
- No.
- This was a first for you, wasn't it?
61
00:05:32,367 --> 00:05:35,167
- Yes.
- And would you agree with me
62
00:05:35,234 --> 00:05:36,934
that it would've been very difficult...
63
00:05:38,434 --> 00:05:42,734
for Lieutenant Lenk or Sergeant Colborn
64
00:05:42,801 --> 00:05:46,467
to have planted a Toyota key
65
00:05:46,534 --> 00:05:49,968
in that residence under your watch?
66
00:05:50,067 --> 00:05:52,934
I believe it would've been difficult.
67
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,868
- 'Cause you were watching them.
- To the best of my ability, yes.
68
00:05:58,367 --> 00:06:01,968
You were not with Mr. Lenk and Mr. Colborn
69
00:06:02,033 --> 00:06:06,067
when they reentered
Steven Avery's residence...
70
00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:09,601
on November 8th, were you?
71
00:06:09,667 --> 00:06:11,000
That's correct.
72
00:06:11,067 --> 00:06:15,100
And that is the occasion
when a key was found, right?
73
00:06:15,167 --> 00:06:16,901
That is my understanding.
74
00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:23,033
Did you believe that either
Lieutenant Lenk or Sergeant Colborn
75
00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:28,734
had an opportunity out of your eyesight
to plant that key there?
76
00:06:28,801 --> 00:06:31,734
- No, they did not.
- How can you be so sure?
77
00:06:34,667 --> 00:06:37,200
Well, first of all,
they would've had to have the key.
78
00:06:37,267 --> 00:06:40,534
Um, I think the only person
that would've had the key
79
00:06:40,601 --> 00:06:45,234
- was the person that killed Teresa.
- Objection. Speculation.
80
00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:47,601
- Sustained.
- Move to strike.
81
00:06:47,667 --> 00:06:50,167
The court
will order the answer stricken.
82
00:06:50,234 --> 00:06:53,634
I want you to limit your comments
to your observations.
83
00:06:53,701 --> 00:06:57,033
What about your observations
do you believe
84
00:06:57,100 --> 00:07:01,601
it was impossible or improbable for them
to plant that key?
85
00:07:02,467 --> 00:07:07,300
My actual observations,
um, I would have to say that...
86
00:07:07,367 --> 00:07:10,501
that it could be possible.
87
00:07:10,567 --> 00:07:16,334
As in, I was doing other things,
I was taking photographs, I was, um...
88
00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,334
searching the night stand.
89
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,300
So if we're just limiting it to
if it was possible
90
00:07:22,367 --> 00:07:24,434
that they could do it
without me seeing it,
91
00:07:24,501 --> 00:07:28,067
- I would say, yes, I guess it is possible.
- All right.
92
00:07:28,133 --> 00:07:31,968
And is that in the sense
of anything's possible?
93
00:07:32,801 --> 00:07:35,501
That's in the sense of it's possible
aliens put it there, I guess.
94
00:07:35,567 --> 00:07:36,567
All right.
95
00:07:36,634 --> 00:07:38,868
There weren't any aliens
in the room, right?
96
00:07:39,667 --> 00:07:41,834
- Not that I know of.
- So it being possible
97
00:07:41,901 --> 00:07:44,167
in the same way that aliens are possible
98
00:07:44,234 --> 00:07:48,367
really isn't a fair characterization
of what you meant, is it?
99
00:07:50,534 --> 00:07:54,000
- I don't understand.
- All right. Let me try it this way.
100
00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,734
You were not told
at the beginning of that shift
101
00:07:58,801 --> 00:08:04,501
that your function was to be a watch dog
for Mr. Lenk and Mr. Colborn, were you?
102
00:08:04,567 --> 00:08:07,968
- That's correct.
- I take it it never occurred to you
103
00:08:08,033 --> 00:08:11,767
that a law enforcement officer
would plant evidence, did it?
104
00:08:12,734 --> 00:08:14,067
No.
105
00:08:14,133 --> 00:08:16,601
That was not on your radar, was it?
106
00:08:16,667 --> 00:08:17,801
No.
107
00:08:17,868 --> 00:08:22,033
Now what we do know is that when
you came into that bedroom the first time,
108
00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:24,434
there was no key on the floor,
was there?
109
00:08:24,501 --> 00:08:25,634
That's correct.
110
00:08:26,834 --> 00:08:33,701
The theory was then,
that this key and the cloth fob
111
00:08:33,767 --> 00:08:35,801
and the plastic buckle...
112
00:08:37,267 --> 00:08:38,701
somehow...
113
00:08:42,067 --> 00:08:45,400
managed to come out that back corner,
114
00:08:45,467 --> 00:08:51,834
walk around the side
and lay like that. Right?
115
00:08:51,901 --> 00:08:55,167
Object, Judge.
That's a mischaracterization of evidence.
116
00:08:56,634 --> 00:09:00,701
Uh, well, that's up to the witness
to answer. I'll allow the question.
117
00:09:00,767 --> 00:09:04,200
The bookshelf was pulled away,
turned, searched.
118
00:09:04,267 --> 00:09:09,133
And it was reasonable that while it was
turned away, it fell into that area.
119
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,167
OK. But you didn't hear it
hit the floor when it...
120
00:09:12,234 --> 00:09:13,634
whenever it got there, right?
121
00:09:14,367 --> 00:09:16,100
Correct. The floor's carpeted.
122
00:09:16,901 --> 00:09:19,501
Well, can I drop it on the floor here?
123
00:09:19,567 --> 00:09:21,267
What are we doing, Judge?
124
00:09:21,334 --> 00:09:24,234
Is this an experiment
in front of the jury?
125
00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:27,567
If it is, then we need
to replicate the conditions.
126
00:09:28,868 --> 00:09:30,934
That's fine.
We'll hold off on that.
127
00:09:31,734 --> 00:09:33,133
The bookcase hasn't come in
128
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,300
so I don't know if they intend to
introduce it or not, but it's not here.
129
00:09:42,367 --> 00:09:45,400
Lieutenant Lenk, November 8
130
00:09:45,467 --> 00:09:51,234
was at least your third time
into Mr. Avery's bedroom.
131
00:09:52,534 --> 00:09:54,267
Searching it. Right?
132
00:09:54,834 --> 00:09:55,834
That's correct.
133
00:09:55,901 --> 00:10:01,367
Now, you had been the first one
to empty out that bookcase?
134
00:10:01,434 --> 00:10:03,000
- No, sir.
- OK.
135
00:10:03,067 --> 00:10:05,434
But you know that somebody searched it
on November 5.
136
00:10:05,501 --> 00:10:07,801
- Yes, sir.
- How about on November 8?
137
00:10:07,868 --> 00:10:12,501
Do you know whether Mr. Colborn
took all of the stuff out of the bookcase?
138
00:10:12,567 --> 00:10:16,334
All the magazines and the photos
and that type of thing
139
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:17,834
were taken out of the bookcase.
140
00:10:17,901 --> 00:10:20,567
So that he could look in the bookcase.
141
00:10:21,434 --> 00:10:22,267
I suppose.
142
00:10:22,334 --> 00:10:25,234
And did you get a chance
to look into the bookcase
143
00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:30,534
- when it was empty of its contents?
- I may... I've glanced in there.
144
00:10:30,601 --> 00:10:33,200
I didn't really take
a hard look in there, no, sir.
145
00:10:33,267 --> 00:10:40,133
You didn't see a blue lanyard
and a black clasp and the Toyota key
146
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,634
in that back of that bookcase, did you?
147
00:10:42,701 --> 00:10:44,167
No, sir, I did not.
148
00:10:45,567 --> 00:10:49,767
It's not enough to just get
the key. He wants Avery's DNA on that.
149
00:10:49,834 --> 00:10:54,167
And so he is gonna wait
until it is the right time.
150
00:10:54,234 --> 00:10:57,901
And there is a Calumet deputy with him
on all of these searches.
151
00:10:57,968 --> 00:10:59,734
Yep, there is, somewhere near.
152
00:10:59,801 --> 00:11:02,567
Somewhere nearby, and he was
just waiting for the right time...
153
00:11:03,801 --> 00:11:05,033
when he could do it.
154
00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:07,767
That key does not fall from...
155
00:11:08,667 --> 00:11:13,868
you know, in between the backboard
and the frame of that little bookcase.
156
00:11:13,934 --> 00:11:16,400
And find its way underneath
a pair of slippers.
157
00:11:16,467 --> 00:11:21,367
Yeah, it just does... You know, things fall
straight down, thanks to gravity.
158
00:11:21,434 --> 00:11:23,734
- Right.
- It's, you know.
159
00:11:23,801 --> 00:11:27,067
Um... and if we get them thinking,
"Look...
160
00:11:28,033 --> 00:11:31,033
if the guy's capable of planting a key...
161
00:11:33,167 --> 00:11:35,167
who's to say he's not capable
of planting blood?"
162
00:11:35,234 --> 00:11:36,634
- Blood's easy.
- Yeah.
163
00:11:36,701 --> 00:11:38,701
- Blood's easy if you...
- Blood's easy.
164
00:11:38,767 --> 00:11:42,100
The bottom line is,
they knew their boss
165
00:11:42,167 --> 00:11:45,367
had just recused the department
166
00:11:45,434 --> 00:11:48,801
and turned over lead authority
in this investigation
167
00:11:48,868 --> 00:11:51,434
to the neighboring department
because of that lawsuit.
168
00:11:51,501 --> 00:11:56,000
They were deposed in the lawsuit,
and they didn't tell... you know.
169
00:11:56,067 --> 00:11:57,567
I'll connect that.
170
00:12:03,834 --> 00:12:07,501
You volunteered to be
one of the officers...
171
00:12:08,801 --> 00:12:11,834
who searched Steven Avery's residence.
172
00:12:13,634 --> 00:12:17,734
We were asked to assist
in searching Av... residences, yes.
173
00:12:18,534 --> 00:12:20,801
Well, all right.
174
00:12:20,868 --> 00:12:24,934
You've given testimony
about that very topic before.
175
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,000
Yes, sir.
176
00:12:26,067 --> 00:12:28,868
Do you recall being asked this question
and did you give this answer?
177
00:12:28,934 --> 00:12:31,634
"So you volunteered
to be one of the officers
178
00:12:31,701 --> 00:12:34,467
who searched Steven Avery's residence."
179
00:12:34,534 --> 00:12:37,067
Your answer: "Yes, sir."
180
00:12:37,133 --> 00:12:39,667
- Was that your testimony?
- Yes, sir.
181
00:12:39,734 --> 00:12:43,267
Sergeant Colborn also volunteered
to be one of the searchers
182
00:12:43,334 --> 00:12:45,033
of Steven Avery's residence.
183
00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:46,767
Yes, sir, I believe so.
184
00:12:46,834 --> 00:12:49,968
And you didn't mention
that you'd been deposed,
185
00:12:50,033 --> 00:12:54,901
three, four weeks earlier,
to Special Agent Fassbender.
186
00:12:54,968 --> 00:12:56,901
- That's correct, sir.
- You didn't mention it
187
00:12:56,968 --> 00:12:59,767
- to Investigator Mark Wiegert.
- That's correct.
188
00:12:59,834 --> 00:13:02,901
Didn't tell Sheriff Pagel
that you'd been deposed.
189
00:13:02,968 --> 00:13:04,167
No, sir.
190
00:13:04,234 --> 00:13:06,634
Without you telling them,
191
00:13:06,701 --> 00:13:10,234
there's really no way they would have
known about it, would they have?
192
00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:11,868
No, sir.
193
00:13:11,934 --> 00:13:16,133
Would it have been a little bit fairer
to Mr. Fassbender
194
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,834
if you had given him this information
195
00:13:18,901 --> 00:13:23,501
so that he as one of the two lead
investigators could've considered it?
196
00:13:23,567 --> 00:13:25,400
Had I thought of it, yes, sir.
197
00:13:25,467 --> 00:13:28,701
Would it have been fairer to give that
to Mr. Wiegert or Sheriff Pagel?
198
00:13:28,767 --> 00:13:30,834
Same answer. Yes, sir.
199
00:13:30,901 --> 00:13:35,133
And before you went rummaging
through Steven Avery's bedroom,
200
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:41,367
once, twice, three times,
whatever it was, for hours,
201
00:13:41,434 --> 00:13:44,267
would it have been fairer to Steven Avery
202
00:13:44,334 --> 00:13:50,133
if someone other than a person
who had been deposed in his lawsuit
203
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,033
had done that search?
204
00:13:52,901 --> 00:13:54,968
No, sir,
I don't think it would've been.
205
00:13:58,234 --> 00:14:00,434
At least around here,
maybe not in Milwaukee,
206
00:14:00,501 --> 00:14:02,968
maybe not in Brookfield,
maybe not in Madison,
207
00:14:03,033 --> 00:14:06,534
but around these parts, if you're
gonna suggest that a cop is crooked,
208
00:14:06,601 --> 00:14:09,534
you're gonna suggest
that a cop committed crimes,
209
00:14:09,601 --> 00:14:12,567
then you better have something other
than "Your elbow was on the table."
210
00:14:12,634 --> 00:14:16,200
And in this case,
to suggest that these police officers
211
00:14:16,267 --> 00:14:19,434
planted evidence with nothing, that is,
212
00:14:19,501 --> 00:14:24,067
with not one shred, at least anything
that I've seen, that approaches evidence,
213
00:14:24,133 --> 00:14:26,434
I think is absolutely deplorable.
214
00:14:54,033 --> 00:14:56,868
<i>I'm in
the same situation that I was before.</i>
215
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,100
<i>There's a couple of 'em
wanting to nail me.</i>
216
00:15:02,367 --> 00:15:03,801
<i>And the other ones didn't.</i>
217
00:15:05,667 --> 00:15:07,100
<i>But nobody speaks up.</i>
218
00:15:10,567 --> 00:15:13,067
<i>I gotta go through this over and over.</i>
219
00:15:17,067 --> 00:15:18,868
<i>Sometimes I just wonder, I don't know.</i>
220
00:15:22,434 --> 00:15:24,767
<i>It's just hard to take all in, you know?</i>
221
00:15:26,701 --> 00:15:28,601
You may be seated.
222
00:15:28,667 --> 00:15:31,868
Mr. Kratz, at this time,
you may resume your questioning.
223
00:15:31,934 --> 00:15:34,501
Sergeant Colborn, that first day, that is,
224
00:15:34,567 --> 00:15:38,901
the first day of the missing persons
investigation, the 3rd of November,
225
00:15:38,968 --> 00:15:40,801
after Mr. Wiegert asked for your help,
226
00:15:40,868 --> 00:15:43,767
did you have any conversation
with Steven Avery at that time?
227
00:15:43,834 --> 00:15:44,834
Yes, I did.
228
00:15:44,901 --> 00:15:50,534
I asked him if Teresa Halbach
had come out to their property
229
00:15:50,601 --> 00:15:53,167
to photograph a vehicle
that they were selling.
230
00:15:53,234 --> 00:15:55,200
Mr. Avery have a response for you?
231
00:15:55,267 --> 00:15:58,334
He said that she
was taking some pictures of a van
232
00:15:58,400 --> 00:15:59,767
that his sister was selling.
233
00:15:59,834 --> 00:16:05,567
And I asked Mr. Avery if she had said
where she was going and he said,
234
00:16:05,634 --> 00:16:10,667
"I never talked to her. She was only here
five or ten minutes, then she left."
235
00:16:10,734 --> 00:16:12,334
That he never talked to her?
236
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,334
That's what he told me.
He never talked to her.
237
00:16:18,167 --> 00:16:20,701
Let's move on then to the 8th of November.
238
00:16:20,767 --> 00:16:26,267
Did you have occasion
to search Steven Avery's bedroom?
239
00:16:26,334 --> 00:16:28,868
- Yes, sir.
- Who did you enter that bedroom with?
240
00:16:28,934 --> 00:16:32,200
Deputy Kucharski and Lieutenant Lenk.
241
00:16:33,501 --> 00:16:35,767
In performing that search,
242
00:16:35,834 --> 00:16:40,267
did you move or manipulate
this piece of furniture?
243
00:16:40,334 --> 00:16:44,734
Well, I'll be the first to admit
I handled it rather roughly,
244
00:16:44,801 --> 00:16:48,701
twisting it, shaking it, pulling it.
245
00:16:48,767 --> 00:16:52,701
Sergeant, did you see this image
on the 8th of November?
246
00:16:52,767 --> 00:16:55,434
Yes. I was searching the desk here.
247
00:16:55,501 --> 00:16:59,834
Deputy Kucharski was sitting
on the bed filling out paperwork.
248
00:16:59,901 --> 00:17:03,300
Lieutenant Lenk said
something to the effect of,
249
00:17:03,367 --> 00:17:05,634
"There's a key on the floor here."
250
00:17:05,701 --> 00:17:09,701
Let me ask you, Sergeant Colborn,
did either yourself, Lieutenant Lenk
251
00:17:09,767 --> 00:17:12,100
or Deputy Kucharski touch that key?
252
00:17:12,167 --> 00:17:15,334
- No, sir.
- Why not?
253
00:17:17,734 --> 00:17:21,400
I think all three of us knew
at the same time
254
00:17:21,467 --> 00:17:25,200
that this was a very important
piece of evidence and...
255
00:17:26,501 --> 00:17:29,334
you know, none of us
were gonna taint that.
256
00:17:36,033 --> 00:17:39,968
Sergeant Colborn, you were asked,
as I understand,
257
00:17:40,033 --> 00:17:44,667
as part of a civil lawsuit,
to provide what's called a deposition.
258
00:17:44,734 --> 00:17:46,801
Can you tell the jury
what you were asked about?
259
00:17:46,868 --> 00:17:52,367
In 1994 or '95,
I had received a telephone call
260
00:17:52,434 --> 00:17:55,767
when I was working in my capacity
as a corrections officer
261
00:17:55,834 --> 00:17:58,467
in the Manitowoc County jail.
262
00:17:58,534 --> 00:18:02,901
The telephone call was from somebody
who identified himself as a detective
263
00:18:02,968 --> 00:18:05,567
and began telling me that
264
00:18:05,634 --> 00:18:09,868
somebody who had committed an assault
in Manitowoc County
265
00:18:09,934 --> 00:18:13,200
was in their custody
266
00:18:13,267 --> 00:18:16,934
and we may have somebody in our jail
267
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,167
on that assault charge that...
may not have done it.
268
00:18:22,234 --> 00:18:27,067
Uh, I told this individual you're probably
gonna want to speak to a detective
269
00:18:27,133 --> 00:18:29,667
and I transferred the call to a detective.
270
00:18:31,067 --> 00:18:33,701
That's it?
That's your connection to Mr. Avery?
271
00:18:33,767 --> 00:18:35,167
Yes, sir.
272
00:18:35,234 --> 00:18:37,434
Well, let me ask you this,
Sergeant Colborn,
273
00:18:37,501 --> 00:18:40,534
do you even know whether that call
was about Mr. Steven Avery?
274
00:18:40,601 --> 00:18:42,467
No, sir.
275
00:18:44,367 --> 00:18:48,968
Well, did that cause you enough
embarrassment and enough angst
276
00:18:49,033 --> 00:18:54,100
that you obtained and planted blood
so that it would be found
277
00:18:54,167 --> 00:18:58,367
and Mr. Avery would be wrongfully
accused of a homicide case?
278
00:18:58,434 --> 00:18:59,501
No, sir.
279
00:18:59,567 --> 00:19:03,067
Have you ever planted any evidence
against Mr. Avery?
280
00:19:03,968 --> 00:19:06,400
I have to say that this is
the first time my integrity
281
00:19:06,467 --> 00:19:09,167
has ever been questioned and,
no, I have not.
282
00:19:11,534 --> 00:19:13,868
That's all I have for Sergeant Colborn,
Judge. Thank you.
283
00:19:15,667 --> 00:19:18,367
This is the first time
your integrity's been questioned.
284
00:19:20,801 --> 00:19:24,067
As it applies to being
a police officer, yes.
285
00:19:24,133 --> 00:19:27,834
OK. And it's not the first time
Mr. Avery's has been,
286
00:19:27,901 --> 00:19:30,100
so I have some questions for you.
287
00:19:32,033 --> 00:19:37,167
November 3, 2005, when you learned
Teresa Halbach was missing,
288
00:19:37,234 --> 00:19:41,667
was just three weeks after your deposition
in Steven Avery's lawsuit.
289
00:19:41,734 --> 00:19:43,200
Yes, sir.
290
00:19:43,267 --> 00:19:48,067
As shift commander, you could've assigned
anyone in the road patrol
291
00:19:48,133 --> 00:19:52,300
to go out to the address on Avery Road.
292
00:19:52,367 --> 00:19:54,033
Yes.
293
00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:57,501
- You chose to do it yourself.
- Yes.
294
00:19:57,567 --> 00:20:00,834
- Did you go alone?
- Yes, I did.
295
00:20:00,901 --> 00:20:05,200
When, sir, did you first
make a written report
296
00:20:05,267 --> 00:20:12,133
of anything having to do with the
November 3, 2005 meeting with Mr. Avery?
297
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,267
June of '06, I believe.
298
00:20:16,334 --> 00:20:20,000
That is, it was almost eight months
after that conversation with Steven Avery,
299
00:20:20,067 --> 00:20:22,968
the first conversation with him
in this investigation,
300
00:20:23,033 --> 00:20:29,901
that you wrote down what you say
he said to you back on November 3.
301
00:20:29,968 --> 00:20:31,033
Yes, sir.
302
00:20:31,701 --> 00:20:34,934
The Manitowoc County
Sheriff's Department
303
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:40,534
had, by their own admission, in fact,
they're the first one that brought it up,
304
00:20:40,601 --> 00:20:43,767
that there was a conflict
of interest there.
305
00:20:43,834 --> 00:20:47,968
And a conflict of interest
in the investigation of a crime...
306
00:20:49,067 --> 00:20:54,834
is probably the most serious violation
any investigating agency can make,
307
00:20:54,901 --> 00:20:58,400
because it brings into question
their credibility
308
00:20:58,467 --> 00:21:00,868
in actions throughout the case.
309
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:08,934
If I had to guess, I would say that
they declared it a conflict of interest
310
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,968
to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s.
311
00:21:12,033 --> 00:21:18,334
They didn't implement the procedure
that would follow a conflict of interest.
312
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,400
And that is quite simply
to totally back off.
313
00:21:22,067 --> 00:21:25,400
They continued their active role
in the investigation,
314
00:21:25,467 --> 00:21:26,934
they developed most of the evidence,
315
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,701
and when they took on that role
that they shouldn't have,
316
00:21:31,767 --> 00:21:34,234
they also committed themselves...
317
00:21:35,334 --> 00:21:39,968
to proving Steven Avery
had committed the crime.
318
00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:46,801
So you're in the house
on November 5, November 6,
319
00:21:46,868 --> 00:21:49,801
November 7, November 8. True?
320
00:21:49,868 --> 00:21:51,601
Yes, sir.
321
00:21:51,667 --> 00:21:55,334
There was no time that
you went into Mr. Avery's home
322
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,534
when you were not also
with Lieutenant Lenk.
323
00:21:59,734 --> 00:22:01,167
No, sir.
324
00:22:01,234 --> 00:22:03,434
No time you went
in Mr. Avery's garage
325
00:22:03,501 --> 00:22:06,467
when Lieutenant Lenk
was not also with you?
326
00:22:06,534 --> 00:22:08,767
Not that I recall.
327
00:22:10,334 --> 00:22:16,667
This case you would describe
as the largest investigation
328
00:22:16,734 --> 00:22:18,501
in which you personally
have participated
329
00:22:18,567 --> 00:22:21,734
- as a law enforcement officer?
- Yes, sir.
330
00:22:21,801 --> 00:22:24,133
Law enforcement agencies involved
331
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,000
have generated thousands of pages
of police reports.
332
00:22:28,067 --> 00:22:28,834
Yes, sir.
333
00:22:29,734 --> 00:22:35,534
Your total contribution is what,
a little bit under half a page?
334
00:22:37,868 --> 00:22:38,868
Correct.
335
00:22:38,934 --> 00:22:43,968
The report that you filed
makes no mention of the Toyota key?
336
00:22:45,501 --> 00:22:47,234
That's correct, sir.
337
00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:52,601
Were there things that you did not
want to commit to paper in a report?
338
00:22:52,667 --> 00:22:54,000
No, sir.
339
00:22:56,067 --> 00:22:59,100
While we're on Steven Avery
and your reports about him...
340
00:23:00,634 --> 00:23:03,567
that phone call, the phone call where
341
00:23:03,634 --> 00:23:05,601
a detective from another
law enforcement agency
342
00:23:05,667 --> 00:23:08,901
told you you may have
the wrong guy in jail? That one?
343
00:23:08,968 --> 00:23:10,300
Yes, sir?
344
00:23:10,367 --> 00:23:12,567
Did you ever write a report about that?
345
00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:15,300
No, I did not, sir.
346
00:23:15,367 --> 00:23:18,501
Well, actually you did, didn't you?
347
00:23:18,567 --> 00:23:22,901
It was about eight years later,
wasn't it?
348
00:23:22,968 --> 00:23:24,901
I wrote a statement on it. Yes, sir.
349
00:23:24,968 --> 00:23:27,467
You wrote that statement in 2003,
350
00:23:27,534 --> 00:23:34,501
the day after Steven Avery
finally walked out of prison, didn't you?
351
00:23:35,267 --> 00:23:38,234
I don't know what day
Steve was released from prison,
352
00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:41,567
but I wrote the statement in 2003.
353
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:45,968
That's all I have.
354
00:23:46,033 --> 00:23:51,634
Sergeant Colborn, back in 1994 or '95,
if you would've written a report...
355
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,234
what would it have been about?
356
00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:57,234
I don't know what
it would've been about.
357
00:23:57,300 --> 00:23:59,534
If I wrote a report
about every call that came in,
358
00:23:59,601 --> 00:24:02,968
I would spend my whole day
writing reports.
359
00:24:03,033 --> 00:24:06,200
That's all the redirect I have of this
witness. Thank you very much, Sergeant.
360
00:24:06,267 --> 00:24:07,534
Mr. Strang?
361
00:24:07,601 --> 00:24:11,067
How many calls have you ever gotten
from another police officer
362
00:24:11,133 --> 00:24:13,200
suggesting you had the wrong guy in jail?
363
00:24:15,467 --> 00:24:18,634
I don't know.
I can't recall any others.
364
00:24:21,501 --> 00:24:22,934
That's all I have.
365
00:24:29,501 --> 00:24:32,434
Sergeant Colborn
was up there for quite some time today.
366
00:24:32,501 --> 00:24:35,667
This is a gentlemen who I think's been
a law enforcement officer for 13 years.
367
00:24:35,734 --> 00:24:38,234
He puts on a uniform,
a badge and a gun every day
368
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:40,501
and goes to work and tries to do his best.
369
00:24:40,567 --> 00:24:42,334
We're all here.
We're putting this on TV.
370
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,067
This guy's gonna go home tonight
371
00:24:44,133 --> 00:24:47,968
and listen to his son maybe cry about
how everybody at school made fun of him
372
00:24:48,033 --> 00:24:49,767
'cause his dad's a bad cop.
373
00:24:49,834 --> 00:24:54,701
This was a hard day and there have been
some hard days for Sergeant Colborn.
374
00:24:54,767 --> 00:24:59,200
But... any pain...
375
00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:03,734
any burden that he's bearing...
376
00:25:04,667 --> 00:25:08,234
pales in comparison
to what the State of Wisconsin
377
00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:13,167
and the people working for it have
inflicted on Steven Avery and his family.
378
00:25:13,234 --> 00:25:17,167
And right now Steven Avery
needs Jerry Buting and Dean Strang
379
00:25:17,234 --> 00:25:21,534
and anybody out there
who believes in him, badly.
380
00:25:21,601 --> 00:25:23,200
We do believe in him.
381
00:25:23,267 --> 00:25:28,400
We are willing to do hard things
to advance his cause,
382
00:25:28,467 --> 00:25:31,567
and he's been saying since November, 2005,
383
00:25:31,634 --> 00:25:34,400
that someone must have
planted his blood if it's in that car.
384
00:25:34,467 --> 00:25:35,901
But my question is, though,
385
00:25:35,968 --> 00:25:38,033
is that if you were gonna
put somebody on the stand
386
00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:40,767
and accuse that person of a conspiracy,
387
00:25:40,834 --> 00:25:45,000
Mr. Kratz kind of made it sound like
you should be able to offer some proof
388
00:25:45,067 --> 00:25:47,067
that this planting actually took place.
389
00:25:47,133 --> 00:25:49,701
You're hearing the evidence
of the conspiracy.
390
00:25:49,767 --> 00:25:53,200
And I have sat in many a federal court
room and heard federal prosecutors
391
00:25:53,267 --> 00:25:57,334
prove a conspiracy on less
than we've heard already here
392
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,367
and then you will hear
by the end of this trial, I think.
393
00:26:07,234 --> 00:26:09,400
The way this case
is coming in at this point
394
00:26:09,467 --> 00:26:14,133
is much better for the Defense
than I would've thought. Much better.
395
00:26:18,701 --> 00:26:22,567
Every single day, we're reminding them
396
00:26:22,634 --> 00:26:28,334
about Manitowoc's continued involvement,
about bias in the investigation.
397
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,734
Sergeant Orth, were you
the first law enforcement officer
398
00:26:31,801 --> 00:26:35,501
- that was on the Avery property itself?
- Correct.
399
00:26:35,567 --> 00:26:37,567
Where was it that you
stopped your vehicle?
400
00:26:38,601 --> 00:26:41,934
I stopped the vehicle right where
Pamela and Nikole Sturm were standing.
401
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,968
They were positioned
right around this area
402
00:26:45,033 --> 00:26:47,934
and they were directing my attention
to this row of vehicles.
403
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,567
All right. Do you recall about what time
you arrived at that scene?
404
00:26:51,634 --> 00:26:54,534
Approximately 10:59 hours.
405
00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:57,267
10:59 a.m.
406
00:26:57,334 --> 00:27:02,601
Now Sergeant Orth, from your arrival,
would you have been in a constant position
407
00:27:02,667 --> 00:27:07,334
to determine whether any
law enforcement officer or citizen
408
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:08,868
entered or disturbed that vehicle?
409
00:27:08,934 --> 00:27:13,934
No police officer or citizen
approached or touched that RAV4.
410
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,834
I'm gonna come right out and ask you,
411
00:27:15,901 --> 00:27:20,968
did you see a gentleman who works for
your department named Lieutenant Jim Lenk?
412
00:27:21,033 --> 00:27:23,400
- I did not see him.
- Did you see a gentleman
413
00:27:23,467 --> 00:27:25,534
who works for your department
named Andrew Colborn?
414
00:27:25,601 --> 00:27:27,534
No, I did not see him.
415
00:27:29,501 --> 00:27:32,601
That's all I've got
of this witness, Judge. Thank you.
416
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,534
You didn't
actually start preparing a log
417
00:27:36,601 --> 00:27:40,534
of anybody coming to and from that scene
418
00:27:40,601 --> 00:27:45,434
of the RAV4 until... 2:45,
isn't that right?
419
00:27:45,501 --> 00:27:49,467
As soon as I stood behind the vehicle
approximately 30 feet,
420
00:27:49,534 --> 00:27:52,367
I used the small notepad
out of my shirt pocket.
421
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,200
That was a rough log that I started.
422
00:27:55,267 --> 00:27:59,334
When I proceeded back to the staging area
is where I prepared a final log,
423
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,234
which is probably
what you're referring to.
424
00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:05,100
All right, if you would just read
what you say
425
00:28:05,167 --> 00:28:09,534
for the entry that says 14:45 hours,
that is 2:45, is it not?
426
00:28:09,601 --> 00:28:11,567
- Correct.
- Read the last sentence.
427
00:28:11,634 --> 00:28:14,067
"I started a log to document
the names of individuals
428
00:28:14,133 --> 00:28:16,300
approaching the immediate area
around the vehicle."
429
00:28:16,367 --> 00:28:19,200
- OK. "I started a log." Right?
- Correct.
430
00:28:19,267 --> 00:28:22,067
Is there anyplace earlier in your report
where you mention
431
00:28:22,133 --> 00:28:27,000
that you ever took any notes anywhere else
about who was coming and going,
432
00:28:27,067 --> 00:28:30,367
other than this entry right here
that it says it's 2:45 p.m.?
433
00:28:30,434 --> 00:28:33,567
No. My rough field notes,
that's when I started previously.
434
00:28:33,634 --> 00:28:36,200
- Do you still have those?
- No, I do not.
435
00:28:36,267 --> 00:28:39,167
So we just have to rely on your memory,
is that right?
436
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,868
As far as the time of breaks
and the time I approached.
437
00:28:44,934 --> 00:28:48,167
- And who came and went, right?
- Correct.
438
00:28:50,033 --> 00:28:52,634
When I got there on Saturday,
439
00:28:52,701 --> 00:28:56,667
ultimately I got down by the car crusher
about 2:25 I think it was,
440
00:28:56,734 --> 00:29:00,634
and the officers
that were staged there, I told them,
441
00:29:00,701 --> 00:29:02,167
or I recommended that they start a log.
442
00:29:02,234 --> 00:29:05,801
Agent Fassbender,
any time after 2:00 p.m.,
443
00:29:05,868 --> 00:29:11,400
did you see any law enforcement officer
or citizen tamper with that RAV4 vehicle?
444
00:29:11,467 --> 00:29:12,467
No.
445
00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:15,067
- Is that important to you?
- Yes.
446
00:29:15,133 --> 00:29:16,367
Why?
447
00:29:16,434 --> 00:29:20,367
'Cause that's probably right now
our main piece of evidence in this case.
448
00:29:21,367 --> 00:29:24,467
Did it cause you concern
that for four hours,
449
00:29:24,534 --> 00:29:26,501
the major piece of evidence in this case
450
00:29:26,567 --> 00:29:30,000
was under the control
of the very department
451
00:29:30,067 --> 00:29:33,801
that had already been determined to have
a conflict of interest in this case?
452
00:29:33,868 --> 00:29:39,534
No, it didn't. I knew that officers were
on that scene, protecting that scene.
453
00:29:39,601 --> 00:29:42,834
Well, did you suggest
that Manitowoc back off
454
00:29:42,901 --> 00:29:44,868
and that the Calumet deputy take over?
455
00:29:44,934 --> 00:29:47,968
- Was that part of your decision?
- I don't believe so.
456
00:29:48,033 --> 00:29:51,133
It happened, but I don't believe
that was specifically my decision.
457
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,901
So it was just coincidental that
it happened around the time you arrived?
458
00:29:57,467 --> 00:29:59,634
- Oh, probably. Yes.
- All right.
459
00:30:00,901 --> 00:30:03,567
And in fact, you were trying
to shape things up a bit,
460
00:30:03,634 --> 00:30:06,434
make sure that logs were taken
and all of that when you arrived.
461
00:30:06,501 --> 00:30:08,634
I suggested a log be kept.
462
00:30:08,701 --> 00:30:10,868
And that's good police practice
to do that, right?
463
00:30:10,934 --> 00:30:12,701
- Certainly.
- You then have a record
464
00:30:12,767 --> 00:30:15,734
- of everybody who comes and goes, right?
- Correct.
465
00:30:15,801 --> 00:30:19,934
Even the top dog sheriff
has to sign a log like this, right?
466
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,267
You should, yes, if you're going
by that checkpoint, yes.
467
00:30:24,267 --> 00:30:27,133
Well, unless you were eluding
the checkpoint in some way,
468
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,434
you would really have to sign in,
wouldn't you?
469
00:30:29,501 --> 00:30:30,701
Correct.
470
00:30:30,767 --> 00:30:35,601
All right, so the log shows that
Lieutenant Lenk signed out at 10:41 p.m.
471
00:30:35,667 --> 00:30:40,934
- on Saturday, November 5th. Correct?
- Yes, if this is all November 5th. Yes.
472
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,300
OK. Well, if you take a minute
and look through there
473
00:30:43,367 --> 00:30:45,434
and show me where
Lieutenant Lenk signed in.
474
00:30:55,734 --> 00:30:58,968
Do you see an entry
that Lieutenant Lenk signed in
475
00:30:59,100 --> 00:31:01,734
anywhere on that log on November 5th?
476
00:31:01,801 --> 00:31:03,467
No, sir, I did not.
477
00:31:05,934 --> 00:31:09,167
Theoretically, a trial is supposed
to be about the day your sister died
478
00:31:09,234 --> 00:31:11,133
and how she died and who did it,
479
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,367
yet it seems as though the State
is spending an inordinate amount of time,
480
00:31:14,434 --> 00:31:17,567
especially with law enforcement officers,
not talking about that,
481
00:31:17,634 --> 00:31:21,968
but who had access to what,
to what scene, to what vehicle...
482
00:31:22,033 --> 00:31:25,300
Are you concerned that, with each witness,
483
00:31:25,367 --> 00:31:30,067
this window of reasonable doubt
keeps getting wider and wider?
484
00:31:30,133 --> 00:31:31,767
No, I'm not concerned at all.
485
00:31:31,834 --> 00:31:36,000
Um, I think it's a hand that's kind of
forced upon the prosecution team.
486
00:31:36,067 --> 00:31:39,067
That's, you know, kind of my belief,
so not concerned at all.
487
00:32:05,667 --> 00:32:07,868
As you sit here today,
Lieutenant Lenk,
488
00:32:07,934 --> 00:32:11,467
do you recall about what time
you arrived at that scene?
489
00:32:12,601 --> 00:32:15,234
Uh, it was just shortly after 2:00...
490
00:32:16,234 --> 00:32:18,601
2:05, somewhere in there.
491
00:32:18,667 --> 00:32:22,701
Now when you got to the scene,
the Avery Salvage scene,
492
00:32:22,767 --> 00:32:28,667
had there been any kind of log in
or check in procedure put in place yet?
493
00:32:28,734 --> 00:32:32,801
- I don't recall a log in at that point.
- All right.
494
00:32:32,868 --> 00:32:34,167
I just don't recall.
495
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,100
Lieutenant Lenk,
any time on the 5th of November
496
00:32:38,167 --> 00:32:41,934
did you have any contact
with Teresa Halbach's SUV?
497
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,033
No, sir, I did not.
498
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:46,400
Did you have any contact with her SUV
on the 4th of November
499
00:32:46,467 --> 00:32:50,634
or the 3rd of November
or in fact any time there before?
500
00:32:50,701 --> 00:32:52,234
No, sir, I did not.
501
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:57,167
Lieutenant Lenk, did you ever obtain
any blood from the clerk's office
502
00:32:57,234 --> 00:33:00,901
or did you obtain any blood
from any location
503
00:33:00,968 --> 00:33:03,868
and plant it anywhere
in Teresa Halbach's vehicle
504
00:33:03,934 --> 00:33:06,701
or anywhere where it could be found
as part of this investigation?
505
00:33:06,767 --> 00:33:08,868
No, sir, definitely not.
506
00:33:10,334 --> 00:33:14,267
Now, what you testified
on direct examination
507
00:33:14,334 --> 00:33:20,434
was that you arrived at the Avery salvage
property just shortly after 2:00,
508
00:33:20,501 --> 00:33:23,467
- 2:05 or something like that?
- Yes, sir.
509
00:33:23,534 --> 00:33:26,267
If you arrived at about 2:00 or 2:05,
510
00:33:26,334 --> 00:33:30,701
then that may have been before
anyone started keeping a log.
511
00:33:30,767 --> 00:33:33,534
- That's correct.
- Under those circumstances,
512
00:33:33,601 --> 00:33:38,367
the fact that you didn't sign in
would not look strange or odd.
513
00:33:40,033 --> 00:33:41,334
No, sir.
514
00:33:43,767 --> 00:33:49,467
The, uh... subject of when you arrived
at the Avery property that day
515
00:33:49,534 --> 00:33:53,467
has come up before in this case,
hasn't it?
516
00:33:53,534 --> 00:33:54,534
Yes, sir.
517
00:33:54,601 --> 00:33:58,067
You gave testimony under oath
back on August 9, 2006?
518
00:33:58,133 --> 00:34:00,267
I believe that was the date, yes, sir.
519
00:34:00,334 --> 00:34:04,067
Now, the oath, of course,
was the same you took today.
520
00:34:04,133 --> 00:34:05,567
Correct.
521
00:34:06,567 --> 00:34:08,934
And were you asked on that occasion,
522
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,133
"And did you in fact arrive
at the Avery property?"
523
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,634
Your answer: "Yes."
Question: "Do you know what time?"
524
00:34:16,701 --> 00:34:19,033
Answer: "I'm not sure of the exact time.
525
00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:23,534
Somewhere 6:30 or 7:00 that evening.
I'm not positive."
526
00:34:24,334 --> 00:34:28,734
Were you asked those questions
and did you give those answers?
527
00:34:28,801 --> 00:34:30,734
Yes, sir, I did.
528
00:34:30,801 --> 00:34:34,767
Now if you had arrived at 6:30 or 7:00,
529
00:34:34,834 --> 00:34:36,767
it would be a little hard to explain
530
00:34:36,834 --> 00:34:39,934
why you're not on the log signing in,
wouldn't it?
531
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,100
Yes, it would.
532
00:34:44,968 --> 00:34:46,968
My blood starts to boil
533
00:34:47,033 --> 00:34:51,367
when the Defense...
When I hear that these police officers,
534
00:34:51,434 --> 00:34:54,167
these good solid citizens,
good decent men,
535
00:34:54,234 --> 00:34:59,334
are accused of planting this evidence,
it starts to get my blood boiling.
536
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,901
They can get up here and act as offended
as they want, as often as they want.
537
00:35:03,968 --> 00:35:05,834
But they're presenting this case,
538
00:35:05,901 --> 00:35:11,267
the way it was done, who it was done by,
who was not excluded from it.
539
00:35:11,334 --> 00:35:15,801
When the public was told
that Manitowoc was not involved...
540
00:35:17,334 --> 00:35:19,133
They sat up here at press conferences
and told you
541
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,701
Manitowoc was not involved
in this investigation,
542
00:35:21,767 --> 00:35:23,334
when in fact, now we know they were,
543
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,133
and that they were
four months later, even.
544
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,534
You gotta wonder, what's going on here?
545
00:35:47,901 --> 00:35:52,667
If Lenk was involved
with the transmittal of evidence in 2002,
546
00:35:52,734 --> 00:35:58,234
then he probably would've known
that this box of Steven Avery's blood
547
00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:00,000
was in that case file.
548
00:36:00,067 --> 00:36:06,534
And he would therefore have known
in October and November of 2005,
549
00:36:06,601 --> 00:36:09,100
when the Halbach vehicle is discovered
on November 5th,
550
00:36:09,167 --> 00:36:13,467
he would've known that there was a source
of Steven Avery's blood available
551
00:36:13,534 --> 00:36:14,834
in the clerk's office.
552
00:36:17,801 --> 00:36:20,501
This is a picture that shows
the file in the clerk's office?
553
00:36:20,567 --> 00:36:22,868
Correct.
554
00:36:22,934 --> 00:36:25,300
And the file actually
has the exhibits in it
555
00:36:25,367 --> 00:36:27,567
- as well as the paper documents, right?
- Correct.
556
00:36:27,634 --> 00:36:29,334
All the exhibits are underneath all the...
557
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,434
I think all the paper
was pretty much at the top.
558
00:36:31,501 --> 00:36:33,534
I mean, and when people go through it,
559
00:36:33,601 --> 00:36:36,634
it doesn't necessarily
end back in that same condition,
560
00:36:36,701 --> 00:36:40,033
and I think when it was kept over
on the side filing cabinet,
561
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:43,167
I tried to level things out too
so the cover could...
562
00:36:43,234 --> 00:36:46,734
the flaps could come over because
I didn't think that was a very secure...
563
00:36:46,801 --> 00:36:48,567
Sure. But there is that...
564
00:36:48,634 --> 00:36:50,801
See that foam board exhibit
in the background?
565
00:36:50,868 --> 00:36:52,868
Right and that would probably
stick out no matter where
566
00:36:52,934 --> 00:36:55,267
- 'cause it was too big for the box.
- Yeah. So the box wouldn't close.
567
00:36:55,334 --> 00:36:57,968
- Right.
- OK. No matter what you did.
568
00:36:59,667 --> 00:37:05,734
All right. Now would it be fair to say
that the presence of sheriff's deputies
569
00:37:05,801 --> 00:37:09,067
inside the interior part
of that clerk's office
570
00:37:09,133 --> 00:37:11,801
was not that unusual an event, right?
571
00:37:11,868 --> 00:37:13,200
That's correct.
572
00:37:13,267 --> 00:37:14,701
Now in addition,
573
00:37:14,767 --> 00:37:20,100
the sheriff's department has access
to the clerk's office with master keys,
574
00:37:20,167 --> 00:37:21,133
isn't that right?
575
00:37:21,968 --> 00:37:24,634
- The security bailiffs would.
- OK.
576
00:37:24,701 --> 00:37:29,767
A master key would allow entry to the
inner part of the clerk's office, right?
577
00:37:31,033 --> 00:37:33,033
- I guess.
- OK.
578
00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:37,467
And that would include after hours,
on weekends or in the evenings, right?
579
00:37:38,901 --> 00:37:40,234
Correct.
580
00:37:43,267 --> 00:37:46,033
- It seems suspicious.
- Yeah.
581
00:37:47,367 --> 00:37:49,901
Them people ain't gonna
get away with everything.
582
00:37:49,968 --> 00:37:51,701
No. No.
583
00:37:51,767 --> 00:37:54,601
- That's why Kratz is worried about it.
- Yeah.
584
00:37:54,667 --> 00:37:56,567
Yeah, he's scared now.
585
00:37:56,634 --> 00:37:58,801
- Oh, yeah?
- Well, why wouldn't he be?
586
00:38:00,801 --> 00:38:03,067
- Dolores, how's Steven doing?
- How is he doing?
587
00:38:03,133 --> 00:38:04,868
Can you comment?
588
00:38:07,167 --> 00:38:10,200
...while you were there
that you'd like to share with us?
589
00:38:10,267 --> 00:38:13,033
- Is there anything you can share with us?
- I don't want to share.
590
00:38:14,767 --> 00:38:16,501
Can you tell us how he's doing?
591
00:38:19,234 --> 00:38:22,968
Can you please comment on something
so we know what everyone is thinking?
592
00:38:24,367 --> 00:38:26,634
- Can you talk to us?
- Where am I gonna walk?
593
00:38:27,434 --> 00:38:28,801
I can't even see.
594
00:38:30,334 --> 00:38:32,000
How are his spirits?
595
00:38:36,834 --> 00:38:41,033
What did you guys talk about in this
20 minute period you were there for?
596
00:38:42,901 --> 00:38:45,701
- Anything you'd like to say?
- Did he say anything about Brendan?
597
00:38:48,267 --> 00:38:49,868
Can you talk to us at all today?
598
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,634
When blood is taken
for a blood sample or blood tests,
599
00:38:59,701 --> 00:39:01,234
it's put in a purple top tube.
600
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:04,200
It has a preservative
to keep it from spoiling,
601
00:39:04,267 --> 00:39:06,901
and that's a chemical called EDTA.
602
00:39:07,634 --> 00:39:10,467
We do not have EDTA
in our own bloodstream.
603
00:39:10,534 --> 00:39:13,067
If you find it in a stain,
604
00:39:13,133 --> 00:39:17,400
the argument is it must be
because the blood was planted.
605
00:39:17,467 --> 00:39:21,801
And so I looked into could we test
the stains in the RAV4
606
00:39:21,868 --> 00:39:24,901
to try and make any kind of
scientifically valid conclusion
607
00:39:24,968 --> 00:39:28,133
about whether or not the blood stain
608
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,767
could've come from a tube
of preserved blood
609
00:39:30,834 --> 00:39:34,033
as opposed to an actively bleeding person.
610
00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:36,934
And there was nobody
who did those tests anymore.
611
00:39:38,968 --> 00:39:45,534
But then the State somehow managed
to get the FBI to create such a test...
612
00:39:46,467 --> 00:39:50,434
and have it ready sometime
in the middle of the trial.
613
00:40:02,534 --> 00:40:05,300
How are you going to deal
with the issue that
614
00:40:05,367 --> 00:40:08,534
in December you were told
this was gonna take four to six months,
615
00:40:08,601 --> 00:40:11,234
which would've been way too late
to present at this trial,
616
00:40:11,300 --> 00:40:15,534
and then all of a sudden,
they got it done in a couple of days?
617
00:40:15,601 --> 00:40:18,567
Well, it wasn't a couple of days.
I think, um...
618
00:40:19,834 --> 00:40:21,801
I don't see it as a problem.
619
00:40:23,033 --> 00:40:24,367
- OK?
- Thank you.
620
00:40:24,434 --> 00:40:26,634
- Thank you very much.
- Oh, I have one.
621
00:40:26,701 --> 00:40:28,000
Yes, ma'am.
622
00:40:28,067 --> 00:40:29,634
This is a bit speculative,
623
00:40:29,701 --> 00:40:33,234
but had the FBI not been able
to expedite that testing so quick,
624
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:36,434
would the trial have just gone on
without these test results?
625
00:40:36,501 --> 00:40:37,634
Yes.
626
00:40:40,567 --> 00:40:41,567
That's a pretty big thing.
627
00:40:41,634 --> 00:40:43,033
- Now can I go?
- Thanks, Norm.
628
00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:44,334
- Thank you.
- Run, Norm, run.
629
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,167
Thank you.
630
00:40:46,234 --> 00:40:48,467
- Good, 'cause I'm chompin' at the bit.
- All right.
631
00:40:49,234 --> 00:40:51,033
- I don't know why.
- Yes.
632
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:52,734
Oh, I'm happy to be here.
633
00:40:53,701 --> 00:40:57,534
You know, this case,
as unusual as it has been already,
634
00:40:57,601 --> 00:41:01,567
has now become even more
unusual and unique
635
00:41:01,634 --> 00:41:05,434
because it's the first and only time
anywhere in the country
636
00:41:05,501 --> 00:41:08,667
where an expert is being allowed
to express an opinion
637
00:41:08,734 --> 00:41:12,801
about EDTA being on a blood stain or not
when there's a challenge.
638
00:41:12,868 --> 00:41:15,701
The only other time it's ever
come in at all was the O.J. case.
639
00:41:15,767 --> 00:41:17,267
And both sides agreed to it.
640
00:41:17,334 --> 00:41:22,000
Here, uh, this judge is the first judge
who's ever ruled...
641
00:41:23,133 --> 00:41:25,367
this kind of test to be admissible.
642
00:41:25,434 --> 00:41:27,934
But the jury is still
going to hear these results.
643
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,634
Yes, they are. And that's unfortunate.
644
00:41:30,701 --> 00:41:32,767
You know, we'll do our best
to explain to the jury
645
00:41:32,834 --> 00:41:35,300
why they shouldn't be relied upon.
646
00:41:35,367 --> 00:41:37,567
You know, we'll see what happens on that.
647
00:41:41,334 --> 00:41:44,300
<i>You know,
I always get my chances where...</i>
648
00:41:45,601 --> 00:41:48,167
<i>yeah, I'm gonna get out,
and then this stuff comes</i>
649
00:41:48,234 --> 00:41:53,267
<i>and I can just see that they're trying
to do their damnedest to keep me in.</i>
650
00:41:55,100 --> 00:41:59,501
<i>So you know, this... it's scary.</i>
651
00:42:01,367 --> 00:42:02,767
<i>Come down to it.</i>
652
00:42:04,534 --> 00:42:06,467
- Morning.
- Morning.
653
00:42:12,167 --> 00:42:17,400
Dr. LeBeau, did you know that this
was a case that involved an allegation
654
00:42:17,467 --> 00:42:20,634
- of police planting evidence?
- Yes, I did.
655
00:42:20,701 --> 00:42:23,033
Why would a case such as that,
656
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:26,200
an allegation of law enforcement officers
planting evidence,
657
00:42:26,267 --> 00:42:29,234
be of a concern to the FBI?
658
00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:32,934
Well, one of the areas that the FBI
659
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:39,367
is responsible for investigating in this
country is crimes of public corruption.
660
00:42:39,434 --> 00:42:44,968
If an individual is truly
in that political position
661
00:42:45,033 --> 00:42:49,534
or in a law enforcement position
and they are doing something illegal
662
00:42:49,601 --> 00:42:53,567
that erodes the public's trust
in that agency or that individual,
663
00:42:53,634 --> 00:42:55,267
and we would want that, certainly,
664
00:42:55,334 --> 00:42:58,767
that individual out
of that office or off the street.
665
00:42:58,834 --> 00:43:02,667
Now I'd like to ask you, Doctor,
what was your thought process
666
00:43:02,734 --> 00:43:05,801
in approaching this case
that was sent to you?
667
00:43:05,868 --> 00:43:07,968
There's going to be one of two scenarios
668
00:43:08,033 --> 00:43:15,000
when you're dealing with the notion
that blood was planted from an EDTA tube.
669
00:43:15,067 --> 00:43:21,200
The first scenario is that if you find
the presence of EDTA on that blood stain,
670
00:43:21,267 --> 00:43:25,167
then that's an indication that
that blood came from a tube,
671
00:43:25,234 --> 00:43:27,067
such as a purple top tube.
672
00:43:27,133 --> 00:43:31,634
The other scenario
is that you do not find EDTA,
673
00:43:31,701 --> 00:43:35,968
and that would then suggest
that the blood came from active bleeding
674
00:43:36,033 --> 00:43:38,734
and not from an EDTA preserved tube.
675
00:43:38,801 --> 00:43:43,534
Were you able to reach a conclusion
concerning the presence of EDTA
676
00:43:43,601 --> 00:43:46,067
on the blood swabs that you tested
677
00:43:46,133 --> 00:43:50,267
from Teresa Halbach's RAV4
that were sent to you in this case?
678
00:43:50,334 --> 00:43:56,000
Yes, sir. And we were not able to identify
any indication of the presence of EDTA
679
00:43:56,067 --> 00:43:59,601
in any of the swabs
that were submitted to our laboratory
680
00:43:59,667 --> 00:44:03,300
and were reported to us
as being collected from the RAV4.
681
00:44:04,234 --> 00:44:09,434
Do you have an opinion to a reasonable
degree of scientific certainty
682
00:44:09,501 --> 00:44:15,467
whether the blood stains from
Teresa Halbach's RAV4 that you tested
683
00:44:15,534 --> 00:44:19,934
came from the vial of blood
of Steven Avery
684
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,100
that was in the Manitowoc County
Clerk of Courts office?
685
00:44:23,167 --> 00:44:27,334
It's my opinion that the blood stains
that were collected from the RAV4
686
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:33,334
could not have come from the EDTA tube
that was provided to us in this case.
687
00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:38,834
You think this is vindication?
688
00:44:38,901 --> 00:44:41,434
Yes,
I clearly believe it's vindication.
689
00:44:41,501 --> 00:44:44,767
You know, here are two officers who were
accused of something just terrible.
690
00:44:44,834 --> 00:44:50,267
That's terrible that they would
plant evidence and try and frame someone
691
00:44:50,334 --> 00:44:54,701
and basically ignore
whoever it may have been
692
00:44:54,767 --> 00:44:57,300
that, uh, murdered Teresa Halbach.
693
00:44:57,367 --> 00:44:59,434
I mean, what an awful thing to do,
694
00:44:59,501 --> 00:45:03,634
it would be, to the family
of Teresa Halbach, to Teresa Halbach.
695
00:45:03,701 --> 00:45:07,868
It's just a dastardly thing
to think about or even conceive.
696
00:45:07,934 --> 00:45:09,634
It's clear vindication.
697
00:45:09,701 --> 00:45:14,167
And it's just something welcome
to all of the law enforcement community
698
00:45:14,234 --> 00:45:19,367
because it's just...
it's such a despicable allegation.
699
00:45:19,434 --> 00:45:21,200
That's all I can say.
700
00:45:21,267 --> 00:45:25,133
And I think that this testing,
uh, cleared that issue up
701
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,067
and, um, cleared it up in a very,
very strong powerful way.
702
00:45:35,834 --> 00:45:39,734
Look how quickly they got the FBI
to retool their instruments,
703
00:45:39,801 --> 00:45:44,100
recalibrate everything, do these internal
validation studies they're gonna claim,
704
00:45:44,167 --> 00:45:47,968
um, and get results
within a matter of weeks.
705
00:45:48,033 --> 00:45:49,200
A few weeks.
706
00:45:49,267 --> 00:45:51,868
On a test that they
haven't done for ten years.
707
00:45:51,934 --> 00:45:58,534
And yet, the crime lab has, in 2002,
evidence in its lab
708
00:45:58,601 --> 00:46:03,968
that Steven Avery is innocent, and it sits
for a year before it gets tested.
709
00:46:04,033 --> 00:46:07,567
It shows the imbalance
between the individual
710
00:46:07,634 --> 00:46:09,868
and the power of the government.
711
00:46:09,934 --> 00:46:13,334
The full force of which they're
trying to bring to bear on this man.
712
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,267
Why? And why in this case?
713
00:46:16,334 --> 00:46:21,200
Because we have accused,
and the evidence suspiciously points to
714
00:46:21,267 --> 00:46:23,267
framing by one of them.
715
00:46:24,033 --> 00:46:28,667
And when you do that,
"you do so at your peril,"
716
00:46:28,734 --> 00:46:30,801
as the State would say, you know?
717
00:46:32,434 --> 00:46:37,267
Hopefully, though, the jury's gonna see
that there's this imbalance
718
00:46:37,334 --> 00:46:41,200
in the way that they're prosecuting
this case and investigating this case.
719
00:46:43,334 --> 00:46:45,601
And I think what's going on here,
it's not...
720
00:46:45,667 --> 00:46:50,200
Again, it's not like they think
they are framing an innocent man.
721
00:46:51,501 --> 00:46:52,834
But they are.
722
00:46:53,701 --> 00:46:55,567
They think he's guilty.
723
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,067
And they're doing whatever they can,
you know, to twist the evidence
724
00:47:00,133 --> 00:47:02,567
or create a case that supports that.
725
00:47:02,634 --> 00:47:05,167
- ...one of the conference rooms here.
- Yeah.
726
00:47:06,234 --> 00:47:08,200
- Mark.
- Hi, how are you?
727
00:47:17,267 --> 00:47:22,667
You testified about why the FBI
would have any interest in this case
728
00:47:22,734 --> 00:47:23,968
in the first place.
729
00:47:24,033 --> 00:47:26,033
- You recall that?
- Yes, I do.
730
00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:28,734
You testified that
one of the FBI's concerns
731
00:47:28,801 --> 00:47:33,300
was that if there's a corrupt cop
on the street doing something illegal,
732
00:47:33,367 --> 00:47:37,767
and certainly planting evidence
to frame somebody would be illegal, right?
733
00:47:37,834 --> 00:47:39,934
- Would you agree with me? OK.
- Yes, I would.
734
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:45,734
And that one of the functions of the FBI
was to ferret out bad cops like that.
735
00:47:45,801 --> 00:47:46,801
Right?
736
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:50,234
- Generally, that's what I... Yes.
- OK.
737
00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:52,901
- Generally, that's what I said. Yes.
- OK. I'm gonna show you
738
00:47:52,968 --> 00:47:55,601
what's been marked as exhibit 479.
739
00:47:55,667 --> 00:47:59,367
Would you read the sentence
on the top of page two?
740
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,667
It discusses the purpose of this request
for your services.
741
00:48:05,734 --> 00:48:09,501
"The purpose of this request
is to establish the presence of EDTA
742
00:48:09,567 --> 00:48:13,033
in the vial of blood,
thereby eliminating the allegation
743
00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:15,801
that this vial
was used to plant evidence."
744
00:48:15,868 --> 00:48:18,734
OK. Can you show me anywhere in there
745
00:48:18,801 --> 00:48:22,968
where that request says,
746
00:48:23,033 --> 00:48:26,501
"Our purpose is also to find out
if there might be any evidence
747
00:48:26,567 --> 00:48:29,901
that there's a corrupt cop
in Manitowoc County"?
748
00:48:42,501 --> 00:48:44,934
I don't see anything of that nature.
749
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,200
Is homicide of a citizen in the State
of Wisconsin a federal crime?
750
00:48:49,267 --> 00:48:51,033
- No, sir, it's not.
- OK.
751
00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:54,334
Is mutilation of a corpse
in the State of Wisconsin a federal crime?
752
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,000
- No.
- OK.
753
00:48:56,067 --> 00:49:00,400
So, the purpose of you
getting your federal agency
754
00:49:00,467 --> 00:49:03,934
involved in this state crime
755
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,801
was to eliminate the allegation
756
00:49:07,868 --> 00:49:10,868
that this vial was used to plant evidence.
757
00:49:10,934 --> 00:49:12,534
Isn't that true?
758
00:49:12,601 --> 00:49:14,000
No, sir.
759
00:49:15,801 --> 00:49:18,868
If I can elaborate,
I'd be happy to explain.
760
00:49:18,934 --> 00:49:21,834
You can elaborate later, sir.
761
00:49:22,968 --> 00:49:26,300
You only tested three swabs
762
00:49:26,367 --> 00:49:30,667
that were reported to have been found
in the Teresa Halbach vehicle, right?
763
00:49:30,734 --> 00:49:32,767
That's correct.
764
00:49:32,834 --> 00:49:36,601
Do you know how many other stains
were also found in that vehicle?
765
00:49:36,667 --> 00:49:38,334
- No, I don't.
- Your opinion
766
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,734
that there's no EDTA in the swabs
from the Halbach vehicle then
767
00:49:42,801 --> 00:49:47,100
is limited to the three swabs that
were presented to you, isn't that right?
768
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,767
Could you repeat that?
769
00:49:49,834 --> 00:49:53,601
You expressed an opinion a little more
broadly than perhaps you intended to,
770
00:49:53,667 --> 00:49:57,634
I believe, which was that the blood stains
in the Halbach vehicle
771
00:49:57,701 --> 00:50:02,300
could not have come from the purple vial
that you tested. Right?
772
00:50:03,367 --> 00:50:04,334
That's correct.
773
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:09,501
But you're actually referring only
to the three stain swabs that you tested.
774
00:50:09,567 --> 00:50:10,968
Correct?
775
00:50:12,133 --> 00:50:15,834
No, I believe my original testimony
is what I meant.
776
00:50:15,901 --> 00:50:18,801
Are you telling me right now
that even though you never tested
777
00:50:18,868 --> 00:50:23,133
three other swabs of separate blood stains
778
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,467
found elsewhere in the RAV4 vehicle,
779
00:50:26,534 --> 00:50:29,501
that you're willing to express an opinion
780
00:50:29,567 --> 00:50:33,834
that none of those three swabs
have EDTA either?
781
00:50:33,901 --> 00:50:34,901
I believe that to be true
782
00:50:34,968 --> 00:50:38,167
within a reasonable degree
of scientific certainty, yes.
783
00:50:38,234 --> 00:50:41,200
OK. Just wanted to know how far
you were willing to go.
784
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:47,200
The issue with this procedure
785
00:50:47,267 --> 00:50:51,567
is not whether or not
it's a valid result if you got...
786
00:50:51,634 --> 00:50:53,868
if you were actually detecting EDTA.
787
00:50:53,934 --> 00:50:55,767
This is a good method...
788
00:50:55,834 --> 00:51:00,667
If the results end up that you
detect EDTA and you identify EDTA,
789
00:51:00,734 --> 00:51:05,934
that's a good indication that EDTA
was present in that sample.
790
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:11,367
The problem really occurs when EDTA
is not detected in a blood stain.
791
00:51:11,434 --> 00:51:16,567
And the problem in that regard is,
from this method,
792
00:51:16,634 --> 00:51:20,167
I don't know whether that's simply
because they didn't detect it
793
00:51:20,234 --> 00:51:22,834
or because it wasn't there.
794
00:51:22,901 --> 00:51:27,267
I can't tell the difference
between those two for this method.
795
00:51:27,334 --> 00:51:31,901
I don't know really
what their method detection limit is.
796
00:51:31,968 --> 00:51:37,934
So I don't know whether
they didn't see it or it wasn't there.
797
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,868
And looking at the data
that is available in this stack,
798
00:51:40,934 --> 00:51:44,501
the validation tests that were done
and those sorts of things,
799
00:51:44,567 --> 00:51:48,367
is there any indication that the FBI
800
00:51:48,434 --> 00:51:53,100
ever found out what
the actual detection limit
801
00:51:53,167 --> 00:51:56,667
or method detection limit would be
for this kind of a test?
802
00:51:56,734 --> 00:52:00,100
No, there's no such indication
in these data.
803
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,234
And so from this data,
can you express any opinion
804
00:52:04,300 --> 00:52:09,734
about whether the three stains
examined by Mr. LeBeau
805
00:52:09,801 --> 00:52:13,033
could have come from the blood sample,
806
00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:15,934
the blood tube Q-49
that was also examined?
807
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,033
It's quite possible that those blood swabs
808
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:22,100
could've come from Mr. Avery's blood tube,
809
00:52:22,167 --> 00:52:25,100
but simply not been detectable
by the laboratory.
810
00:52:25,868 --> 00:52:28,601
So even having gone through this test,
811
00:52:28,667 --> 00:52:34,901
is it possible that EDTA is or was
in those three RAV4 stains?
812
00:52:34,968 --> 00:52:36,300
Yes.
813
00:52:36,367 --> 00:52:42,033
What about the three swabs from the RAV
that were not tested by Mr. LeBeau?
814
00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:44,501
Can any conclusion be drawn on that?
815
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:46,534
I'm an analytical chemist.
816
00:52:46,601 --> 00:52:49,100
I'm not in the business
of just guessing what's in samples.
817
00:52:49,167 --> 00:52:52,300
We have to test samples
to decide what's in them.
818
00:52:52,367 --> 00:52:54,701
So, can you conclude then
819
00:52:54,767 --> 00:52:59,267
that any of the RAV4 stains
that were examined by the FBI
820
00:52:59,334 --> 00:53:03,167
could not have come from the blood tube
821
00:53:03,234 --> 00:53:06,033
that contained Mr. Avery's blood?
822
00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:07,901
I can't conclude that.
823
00:53:21,067 --> 00:53:24,067
If we can convince them
on the major points,
824
00:53:24,133 --> 00:53:28,834
then as long as there is a "reasonable
hypothesis" as the jury instruction says,
825
00:53:28,901 --> 00:53:31,601
then I think we've got a chance
to convince them.
826
00:53:31,667 --> 00:53:35,234
All this, of course, assumes
that we end up with 12 people
827
00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:40,534
who really are unbiased and impartial,
despite, you know,
828
00:53:40,601 --> 00:53:42,801
- the months of publicity that they've had.
- Right.
829
00:53:42,868 --> 00:53:44,667
And you know?
830
00:53:44,734 --> 00:53:46,667
That's asking a lot of human beings.
831
00:53:46,734 --> 00:53:51,133
This case, you know, could've been
a futile exercise for the last month
832
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,667
if we ended up with people
that can't do that.
833
00:53:56,734 --> 00:53:58,334
And there's just no way of knowing.
834
00:54:16,133 --> 00:54:22,300
The false imprisonment count here
is the last vestige
835
00:54:22,367 --> 00:54:28,100
of the unsupported, inaccurate,
uncorroborated claims
836
00:54:28,167 --> 00:54:33,767
of Brendan Dassey that were broadcast
by agents of the State
837
00:54:33,834 --> 00:54:36,734
to everyone who had a TV turned on,
838
00:54:36,801 --> 00:54:40,234
that threatened the right to a fair trial,
839
00:54:40,300 --> 00:54:43,067
that threatened the right
to have a jury drawn
840
00:54:43,133 --> 00:54:46,968
from the venue in which
this crime was charged,
841
00:54:47,033 --> 00:54:48,734
and that curled the hair
842
00:54:48,801 --> 00:54:52,033
of anyone who listened to the description
843
00:54:52,100 --> 00:54:55,200
of a naked woman manacled to a bed,
844
00:54:55,267 --> 00:55:01,133
sexually assaulted, stabbed,
throat cut, strangled,
845
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,534
when the slashing
of her throat didn't kill her,
846
00:55:03,601 --> 00:55:09,334
and then only later,
a corpse shot 11 times.
847
00:55:10,934 --> 00:55:15,067
That was the story. That was
the horror story that was presented.
848
00:55:15,133 --> 00:55:17,367
And the false imprisonment charge,
as I say,
849
00:55:17,434 --> 00:55:21,133
is the last vestige of that horror story.
850
00:55:22,467 --> 00:55:24,133
It was a fable.
851
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:30,200
An ugly, horrific fable,
but a fable all the same,
852
00:55:30,267 --> 00:55:32,801
belied by the physical evidence
853
00:55:32,868 --> 00:55:35,934
and by the testimony
in the State's own case-in-chief.
854
00:55:37,234 --> 00:55:43,234
So I'm asking the court to, in a sense,
ratify what the State has already done.
855
00:55:44,801 --> 00:55:47,601
Which is the abandonment of this charge
856
00:55:47,667 --> 00:55:52,467
and the abandonment
of the theory that Brendan Dassey
857
00:55:52,534 --> 00:55:54,400
had anything to do with this...
858
00:55:55,734 --> 00:56:00,400
or that the story that Brendan Dassey told
under police questioning...
859
00:56:01,901 --> 00:56:07,400
has any veracity, corroboration,
860
00:56:07,467 --> 00:56:11,334
or foothold in the evidence
presented at this trial.
861
00:56:13,133 --> 00:56:15,767
During voir dire,
a number of jurors indicated
862
00:56:15,834 --> 00:56:20,133
they were at least somewhat familiar
with the case against Brendan Dassey.
863
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,367
To submit this charge to the jury would,
the Court believes,
864
00:56:23,434 --> 00:56:27,133
invite the jury to fill in the blanks,
if you will,
865
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,834
by what they might otherwise remember
about allegations
866
00:56:29,901 --> 00:56:33,467
that have not been supported
by evidence in this case.
867
00:56:33,534 --> 00:56:36,834
The Court concludes there is not
sufficient evidence in the record
868
00:56:36,901 --> 00:56:40,100
to support a jury finding
of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt
869
00:56:40,167 --> 00:56:42,267
on the false imprisonment charge,
870
00:56:42,334 --> 00:56:47,868
and the Court therefore grants the
defendant's motion to dismiss that charge.
871
00:56:49,267 --> 00:56:52,200
The motion hearings
this morning on a litany of issues
872
00:56:52,267 --> 00:56:54,033
that have already gone before the jury.
873
00:56:54,100 --> 00:56:56,634
How do you unring that bell with the jury?
874
00:56:56,701 --> 00:57:01,300
In one way,
we're back to February 28, 2006.
875
00:57:01,367 --> 00:57:06,234
We're back to the three counts
Steve faced originally.
876
00:57:06,300 --> 00:57:11,501
And in another way,
we can never be back to February 28, 2006,
877
00:57:11,567 --> 00:57:15,100
because March 1 and March 2, 2006,
878
00:57:15,167 --> 00:57:18,667
happened with the State's
press conferences
879
00:57:18,734 --> 00:57:23,934
and all of the ugly,
and as it turns out, untrue things
880
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,634
that were said publicly
against our client since then.
881
00:57:27,701 --> 00:57:31,868
So is it nice to see the last vestige
882
00:57:31,934 --> 00:57:35,200
of those allegations fall away?
883
00:57:35,267 --> 00:57:38,167
Sure. And am I gloating over it?
884
00:57:38,234 --> 00:57:41,067
No, because they never should've
been there in the first place.
885
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,968
If you can move
the microphone over to Mr. Avery then.
886
00:58:07,167 --> 00:58:11,334
Uh, Mr. Avery,
do you understand that the decision
887
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,901
whether to testify or not
is yours to make?
888
00:58:14,968 --> 00:58:16,167
Yes.
889
00:58:16,234 --> 00:58:20,133
That means you can listen to your
attorneys and listen to their advice,
890
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,667
but ultimately it's your call.
Do you understand that?
891
00:58:22,734 --> 00:58:24,267
Yes, I do.
892
00:58:24,334 --> 00:58:27,400
Has anyone made any threats
or promises to you
893
00:58:27,467 --> 00:58:29,367
to influence your decision?
894
00:58:29,434 --> 00:58:30,734
No, they didn't.
895
00:58:31,667 --> 00:58:35,801
Have you thoroughly discussed
your decision with your attorneys?
896
00:58:35,868 --> 00:58:36,868
Yes, I did.
897
00:58:36,934 --> 00:58:39,501
And have you made a decision
as to whether or not
898
00:58:39,567 --> 00:58:41,968
you wish to testify in this case?
899
00:58:42,033 --> 00:58:43,868
- Yes.
- What is your decision?
900
00:58:43,934 --> 00:58:48,801
The decision is...
I'm an innocent man and I...
901
00:58:48,868 --> 00:58:53,067
There's no reason for me to testify.
Everybody knows I'm innocent.
902
00:58:53,133 --> 00:58:56,467
OK. So you wish not to testify,
is that correct?
903
00:58:56,534 --> 00:58:57,567
Yes.
904
00:59:01,767 --> 00:59:03,634
- Thank you. You may be seated.
- Thank you.
905
00:59:13,534 --> 00:59:16,634
So Steve Avery
talked today. What was that like?
906
00:59:16,701 --> 00:59:19,901
From what I've seen of him before,
he likes to talk,
907
00:59:19,968 --> 00:59:24,634
so I think he probably would've liked
to be up on the stand, but, um...
908
00:59:25,467 --> 00:59:27,701
You know, it's kind of counterintuitive.
Uh...
909
00:59:27,767 --> 00:59:31,400
If he's innocent, he should go up
on the stand and say, you know...
910
00:59:31,467 --> 00:59:34,334
He has nothing to hide,
so why isn't he up there? But, um...
911
00:59:36,267 --> 00:59:38,000
- Yeah.
- Mike, what was going
912
00:59:38,067 --> 00:59:40,534
through your mind
when he said he was an innocent man?
913
00:59:41,267 --> 00:59:45,033
Um, same thing that's been going
through my mind for 16 months.
914
00:59:46,300 --> 00:59:49,601
Everything I've heard him say
hasn't been the truth.
915
00:59:49,667 --> 00:59:51,300
No different today.
916
00:59:51,367 --> 00:59:55,601
You know, I think that he thinks
he's been let out of prison once,
917
00:59:55,667 --> 00:59:58,567
he thinks it's probably
gonna happen again. But, um...
918
00:59:59,334 --> 01:00:02,934
I don't think, uh... I don't think so.
919
01:00:11,434 --> 01:00:14,834
All right, so that's it.
That's the evidence.
920
01:00:14,901 --> 01:00:15,901
Now what?
921
01:00:16,501 --> 01:00:18,267
Well, now we argue it.
922
01:00:18,334 --> 01:00:22,234
And, uh, you know, you guys
will have the day off tomorrow,
923
01:00:22,300 --> 01:00:24,334
by and large, yeah.
924
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:26,934
Let's talk about a couple of things.
925
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,767
You guys started with six counts
against Steve.
926
01:00:30,834 --> 01:00:32,567
We're down to three counts.
927
01:00:33,801 --> 01:00:35,400
That's the good news.
928
01:00:35,467 --> 01:00:41,200
The bad news is, if we lose count one,
nothing else matters.
929
01:00:42,033 --> 01:00:43,400
- No.
- Nothing else matters.
930
01:00:43,467 --> 01:00:47,801
If we lose count one, he's going to prison
for the rest of his life.
931
01:00:49,801 --> 01:00:56,300
Barring winning on appeal or, you know,
testing of the EDTA later,
932
01:00:56,367 --> 01:01:01,100
but the sentence will be life in prison
if we lose count one.
933
01:01:05,868 --> 01:01:10,868
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
==========EPISODE 8=============
1
00:00:26,018 --> 00:00:27,651
I can't find it.
2
00:00:29,417 --> 00:00:32,083
I thought it was over here.
3
00:00:32,150 --> 00:00:34,417
Maybe I came too fast, huh?
4
00:00:41,284 --> 00:00:42,317
Here. Huh...
5
00:00:47,183 --> 00:00:48,617
[laughs]
6
00:00:48,684 --> 00:00:51,183
I did that, when he was in prison.
7
00:00:58,951 --> 00:01:03,551
I was gonna raise fish.
Me and Steve.
8
00:01:04,684 --> 00:01:06,918
That's why I put this building up.
9
00:01:09,784 --> 00:01:13,384
And I made those tanks,
I made my own farms.
10
00:01:19,050 --> 00:01:20,717
I just wish that, you know,
he could...
11
00:01:43,517 --> 00:01:46,517
[Strang] There's nowhere that Steven Avery
will be able to go
12
00:01:46,584 --> 00:01:50,817
to get his reputation back
if he wins this trial.
13
00:01:50,884 --> 00:01:53,751
He didn't commit the rape
he did 18 years for.
14
00:01:53,817 --> 00:01:58,784
We know he didn't commit the rape
he spent 18 years in prison for.
15
00:01:58,851 --> 00:02:01,817
Where did he get
his reputation back for that?
16
00:02:02,584 --> 00:02:04,484
He didn't. He never did.
17
00:02:06,684 --> 00:02:08,450
He never will here.
18
00:02:10,417 --> 00:02:13,918
So, in some ways,
to be accused is to lose.
19
00:02:16,050 --> 00:02:17,317
Every time.
20
00:02:19,517 --> 00:02:24,751
What you can hope to get
is your liberty back, eventually.
21
00:02:25,817 --> 00:02:28,050
That's all you can ever hope to get.
22
00:02:29,250 --> 00:02:32,083
- [theme music plays]
- [geese honking]
23
00:03:32,650 --> 00:03:37,650
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
24
00:03:39,884 --> 00:03:41,517
Reasonable doubts...
25
00:03:43,317 --> 00:03:45,817
are for innocent people.
26
00:03:54,384 --> 00:03:56,851
Let me turn for a moment
to some of the evidence that's lacking,
27
00:03:56,918 --> 00:04:01,584
that you would expect to find...
if Mr. Avery was really guilty.
28
00:04:01,651 --> 00:04:06,284
No blood splatter
on the walls or the ceiling.
29
00:04:07,450 --> 00:04:12,317
No bloody trail of a body being carried
out of that bedroom
30
00:04:12,384 --> 00:04:14,651
into the garage or into the burn pit.
31
00:04:15,417 --> 00:04:19,884
Nothing on the carpet, nothing on
the back stoop, the deck, anywhere.
32
00:04:19,951 --> 00:04:22,183
No scratches on the headboard.
33
00:04:23,117 --> 00:04:24,684
No rope fibers on the headboard.
34
00:04:24,751 --> 00:04:27,751
Nothing that would indicate
somebody restrained,
35
00:04:27,817 --> 00:04:32,284
struggling for their life,
who was murdered in that bedroom.
36
00:04:39,183 --> 00:04:43,384
The Defense argued that there was no blood
that was found in the trailer.
37
00:04:43,450 --> 00:04:48,284
Since Teresa wasn't killed in the trailer,
there shouldn't be.
38
00:04:48,350 --> 00:04:51,517
But what was found in the trailer
is extremely important.
39
00:04:51,584 --> 00:04:55,817
They found an<i> Auto Trader</i> magazine
and a bill of sale.
40
00:04:55,884 --> 00:04:57,717
Teresa was in that trailer.
41
00:04:57,784 --> 00:05:03,350
She was in the trailer,
but she was not killed in that trailer.
42
00:05:07,284 --> 00:05:10,751
Teresa Halbach
was killed in the garage.
43
00:05:10,817 --> 00:05:14,384
She was killed in Steven Avery's garage.
44
00:05:14,450 --> 00:05:18,150
[Buting] "Try to put her
in his house or garage."
45
00:05:18,217 --> 00:05:19,784
Now this is not blind testing.
46
00:05:19,851 --> 00:05:23,751
These agents are telling Ms. Culhane
what they want.
47
00:05:23,817 --> 00:05:27,183
And this is November 11th.
Well, here it is, March.
48
00:05:27,250 --> 00:05:32,784
She's working on this bullet fragment now
and she still has not found one item
49
00:05:32,851 --> 00:05:37,117
that links Teresa Halbach
to Mr. Avery's house or garage.
50
00:05:37,183 --> 00:05:38,684
So she's gotta feel some pressure.
51
00:05:38,751 --> 00:05:40,450
This is the biggest case of her career.
52
00:05:40,517 --> 00:05:42,784
It's the biggest case
the crime lab's ever had.
53
00:05:42,851 --> 00:05:45,851
It's almost five months
and nothing's been found.
54
00:05:50,717 --> 00:05:54,751
The physical evidence, the DNA evidence,
55
00:05:54,817 --> 00:05:59,350
the eyewitness testimony,
the scientific evidence,
56
00:05:59,417 --> 00:06:02,817
the big fire that Mr. Avery had,
57
00:06:02,884 --> 00:06:08,117
common sense... all point to one person.
58
00:06:08,183 --> 00:06:12,117
This could be done by two officers.
Really one officer.
59
00:06:12,183 --> 00:06:15,484
The one officer who keeps coming up,
Lieutenant Lenk,
60
00:06:15,551 --> 00:06:18,350
whose name's on the evidence transmittal
from the 1985 case
61
00:06:18,417 --> 00:06:20,484
just a couple years earlier.
62
00:06:20,551 --> 00:06:26,517
Lieutenant Lenk, who shows up
on November 5th without logging in.
63
00:06:26,584 --> 00:06:29,651
Lieutenant Lenk, who finds the magic key.
64
00:06:31,050 --> 00:06:34,817
Lieutenant Lenk who, four months later,
65
00:06:34,884 --> 00:06:38,517
four months after Manitowoc
no longer is needed,
66
00:06:38,584 --> 00:06:43,317
with no legitimate reason,
is back at that scene on March 1st,
67
00:06:43,384 --> 00:06:45,884
and what's found the next day?
68
00:06:46,951 --> 00:06:47,951
The magic bullet.
69
00:06:52,217 --> 00:06:57,584
[Kratz] This isn't just two guys.
It's Jim Lenk and it's Andy Colborn.
70
00:06:57,651 --> 00:07:02,951
Their livelihood,
their reputations, their families,
71
00:07:03,018 --> 00:07:10,018
everything in their 20-plus years
of law enforcement are on the line...
72
00:07:12,317 --> 00:07:17,117
when some lawyer accuses them
of misconduct.
73
00:07:17,183 --> 00:07:21,250
Not just any misconduct,
but planting evidence in a murder case.
74
00:07:21,317 --> 00:07:26,317
And this vial-planting defense
is absolutely ludicrous.
75
00:07:26,384 --> 00:07:32,250
We only had to call one witness
who scientifically could tell you
76
00:07:32,317 --> 00:07:38,551
that there is absolutely no way
that vial of blood was used to plant.
77
00:07:38,617 --> 00:07:41,183
[Strang] Would Lieutenant Lenk lie?
78
00:07:41,250 --> 00:07:45,551
Would he lie as a sworn
law enforcement officer?
79
00:07:45,617 --> 00:07:51,717
Well, all I can tell you is,
he did twice and you heard it.
80
00:07:53,250 --> 00:07:56,150
Here he says he arrives at 2:00.
81
00:07:56,217 --> 00:08:01,350
When he's asked under oath before,
it's 6:30 or 7:00.
82
00:08:01,417 --> 00:08:04,517
This isn't 15 minutes off, folks.
83
00:08:05,918 --> 00:08:10,884
It's under oath and it's a difference
of four and a half or five hours.
84
00:08:12,417 --> 00:08:14,584
At that time of year, November 2005,
85
00:08:14,651 --> 00:08:19,284
it's the difference between
broad daylight and pitch black.
86
00:08:25,517 --> 00:08:28,018
He was under oath.
87
00:08:34,384 --> 00:08:37,617
If and when police officers
plant evidence,
88
00:08:37,684 --> 00:08:42,083
they are not doing it
to frame an innocent man.
89
00:08:42,150 --> 00:08:45,951
They're doing it because
they believe the man guilty.
90
00:08:48,117 --> 00:08:50,083
They're not doing it
to frame an innocent man.
91
00:08:50,150 --> 00:08:54,751
They're doing it to ensure the conviction
of someone they've decided is guilty.
92
00:08:55,484 --> 00:08:57,217
If you buy Mr. Strang's argument
93
00:08:57,284 --> 00:09:03,751
that they were trying to make sure
that a guilty person was found guilty...
94
00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:09,717
then assigning accountability
to the murder for Teresa Halbach
95
00:09:09,784 --> 00:09:13,117
shouldn't matter
whether or not that key was planted.
96
00:09:16,584 --> 00:09:20,217
In other words,
can you set that aside and decide,
97
00:09:20,284 --> 00:09:22,317
is there enough other evidence
98
00:09:22,384 --> 00:09:27,617
or is the key the only thing
that points to Mr. Avery?
99
00:09:27,684 --> 00:09:34,384
That key, in the big picture, in the big
scheme of things here, means very little.
100
00:09:38,551 --> 00:09:44,884
We do not and have never claimed
that the police killed Teresa Halbach.
101
00:09:44,951 --> 00:09:47,984
However, the person or persons who did...
102
00:09:48,884 --> 00:09:51,317
knew exactly...
103
00:09:52,717 --> 00:09:55,751
who the police would really want to blame.
104
00:09:55,817 --> 00:09:58,350
[Kratz] Despite Mr. Buting
standing up here saying
105
00:09:58,417 --> 00:10:03,018
"Look, folks, we're not saying
that the cops killed Teresa Halbach.
106
00:10:03,083 --> 00:10:06,083
Now what we're saying
is that somebody else
107
00:10:06,150 --> 00:10:10,384
skillfully exploited
law enforcement bias,"
108
00:10:10,450 --> 00:10:13,384
as if there's somebody smart enough
out there that could do that.
109
00:10:13,450 --> 00:10:18,884
But when you scrape one layer
of this manure off of the topsoil,
110
00:10:18,951 --> 00:10:22,584
you'll realize that the cops
had to kill her.
111
00:10:22,651 --> 00:10:24,851
Now, are you, as the jury,
112
00:10:24,918 --> 00:10:31,918
in order to find Mr. Avery not guilty,
willing to say that your cops,
113
00:10:31,984 --> 00:10:35,150
that your Manitowoc County
sheriff's deputies,
114
00:10:35,217 --> 00:10:38,617
Lieutenant Lenk, Sergeant Colborn,
115
00:10:38,684 --> 00:10:41,384
came across a 25-year-old photographer...
116
00:10:42,417 --> 00:10:47,784
killed her, mutilated her,
burned her bones,
117
00:10:47,851 --> 00:10:51,050
all to set up and to frame Mr. Avery?
118
00:10:51,117 --> 00:10:52,884
You've gotta be willing to say that.
119
00:10:52,951 --> 00:10:54,517
You've gotta make that leap.
120
00:11:00,083 --> 00:11:02,817
[Strang] You can decide this case,
if you choose,
121
00:11:02,884 --> 00:11:05,183
on the evidence in the courtroom.
122
00:11:06,284 --> 00:11:08,350
And only the evidence in the courtroom.
123
00:11:09,083 --> 00:11:11,050
You have the power to do that.
124
00:11:11,117 --> 00:11:14,350
So I ask you, please...
125
00:11:15,284 --> 00:11:18,784
give it your full and fair consideration.
126
00:11:19,984 --> 00:11:25,150
Do that critically here
as citizens of Manitowoc County.
127
00:11:28,350 --> 00:11:31,083
Where we stayed to pick a jury.
128
00:11:32,851 --> 00:11:34,918
[Kratz] I don't believe
it's a difficult decision
129
00:11:34,984 --> 00:11:40,450
because everything in this case
pointed towards one person,
130
00:11:40,517 --> 00:11:42,417
towards one defendant.
131
00:11:44,384 --> 00:11:46,450
I'm thanking you
at the conclusion of this case
132
00:11:46,517 --> 00:11:49,717
on behalf of the State of Wisconsin
133
00:11:49,784 --> 00:11:53,217
and urging you, urging you,
134
00:11:53,284 --> 00:11:55,817
to follow the court's instructions,
135
00:11:55,884 --> 00:12:00,284
to follow the evidence in the case
and return verdicts of guilty.
136
00:12:01,651 --> 00:12:03,083
Thank you. Thank you, Judge.
137
00:12:06,350 --> 00:12:07,918
[Judge Willis] Members of the jury...
138
00:12:09,050 --> 00:12:12,951
the time has now come when
the great burden of reaching a just,
139
00:12:13,018 --> 00:12:16,250
fair and conscientious decision
of this case
140
00:12:16,317 --> 00:12:18,984
is to be thrown wholly upon you,
the jurors,
141
00:12:19,050 --> 00:12:21,018
selected for this important duty.
142
00:12:40,784 --> 00:12:45,050
[Buting] This jury, if they just wanted
to convict him, they could.
143
00:12:45,117 --> 00:12:48,083
They could come back and say,
"You're guilty, that's the end of it."
144
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:50,150
You know, even though Kratz,
in my estimation,
145
00:12:50,217 --> 00:12:56,751
did not answer a number of critical
questions that I raised yesterday.
146
00:12:56,817 --> 00:12:59,450
Um, he left them on the table.
147
00:12:59,517 --> 00:13:01,117
They may answer them.
148
00:13:02,117 --> 00:13:05,050
You know, they may be able to collectively
go back and start talking about it,
149
00:13:05,117 --> 00:13:09,918
"Well, now, what about this? Why would
her body be in the back of the Toyota RAV4
150
00:13:09,984 --> 00:13:13,717
if he really burned her there? Maybe..."
And they may come up with something.
151
00:13:13,784 --> 00:13:17,083
And it may...
It may be completely speculative,
152
00:13:17,150 --> 00:13:20,183
or it may have some basis
in the evidence, I don't know.
153
00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:22,417
[indistinct chatter]
154
00:13:30,083 --> 00:13:32,284
[female reporter] One other point
Kratz pointed out today
155
00:13:32,350 --> 00:13:36,050
was Avery's 1985 wrongful rape conviction.
He reminded the jury
156
00:13:36,117 --> 00:13:39,217
that they are not to even consider that
during their deliberations.
157
00:13:39,284 --> 00:13:41,951
In the hour and a half
that he addressed the jury today,
158
00:13:42,018 --> 00:13:44,851
Kratz attacked every theory
the Defense has laid out.
159
00:13:44,918 --> 00:13:48,551
Reporting live in Chilton, Emily Matesic,
Action 2 News.
160
00:14:12,250 --> 00:14:13,751
- [phone rings]
- [Dolores] Yeah?
161
00:14:13,817 --> 00:14:14,817
[Steven on phone] I missed it.
162
00:14:14,884 --> 00:14:16,284
Missed what?
163
00:14:16,350 --> 00:14:17,884
I was gonna watch Channel 2.
164
00:14:19,384 --> 00:14:21,250
For... What time?
165
00:14:21,317 --> 00:14:23,018
It's after 4:00 now.
166
00:14:23,083 --> 00:14:23,951
[Dolores] Yeah?
167
00:14:26,417 --> 00:14:27,817
They would've had something on there.
168
00:14:27,884 --> 00:14:30,350
Oh, yeah? Well, they'll
have it on at five again.
169
00:14:30,417 --> 00:14:32,984
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
170
00:14:33,050 --> 00:14:34,684
- Yeah.
- I'll have to watch it.
171
00:14:34,751 --> 00:14:37,717
On Channel 2, you watch five? I mean...
[laughs]
172
00:14:37,817 --> 00:14:39,083
I watch 'em all.
173
00:14:40,784 --> 00:14:42,551
Yeah, but it didn't make sense
what I said.
174
00:14:42,617 --> 00:14:43,284
No.
175
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:45,117
- You...
- [both laugh]
176
00:14:46,651 --> 00:14:49,551
- Do you watch two on five?
- Mm...
177
00:14:49,617 --> 00:14:50,951
That's what it sounded like I said.
178
00:14:51,018 --> 00:14:53,784
Yeah, I'm hoping next week
for a verdict. Not this week.
179
00:14:53,851 --> 00:14:56,617
- No, I'd sooner have it next week.
- Yeah.
180
00:14:56,684 --> 00:14:59,250
That way they...
can think about all that.
181
00:14:59,317 --> 00:15:00,717
Yeah. Yeah.
182
00:15:00,784 --> 00:15:04,884
Well, you figure they'll...
they'll do it tomorrow, too.
183
00:15:04,951 --> 00:15:05,751
Yeah.
184
00:15:12,250 --> 00:15:16,284
The jury has told the judge
that they want to deliberate until 5:30
185
00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:19,884
and then they want to break
for the night, go back to the hotel,
186
00:15:19,951 --> 00:15:22,417
rest and start tomorrow.
187
00:15:22,484 --> 00:15:25,317
Which means they're not... They don't think
they're gonna be done today.
188
00:15:25,384 --> 00:15:28,250
I think if they'd come back
very quickly, we would be...
189
00:15:28,317 --> 00:15:31,250
It would be very bad for the Defense.
190
00:15:31,317 --> 00:15:32,517
Um...
191
00:15:32,584 --> 00:15:36,384
Because then it would just be like...
they were ready to convict him,
192
00:15:36,450 --> 00:15:38,851
it was just a matter
of getting it over and, you know...
193
00:15:39,851 --> 00:15:45,450
going through the formalities, but...
they're obviously debating something.
194
00:15:45,517 --> 00:15:47,918
Just how many hours or days
it'll take the jury
195
00:15:47,984 --> 00:15:52,018
to weigh all the testimony and evidence
in the case is anyone's guess.
196
00:15:52,083 --> 00:15:55,450
Before the jury left the courtroom today,
Judge Patrick Willis reminded them
197
00:15:55,517 --> 00:15:58,617
that it is their duty to render
a just and true verdict.
198
00:15:58,684 --> 00:16:01,784
Live in Chilton, Becky DeVries,
Fox 11 News.
199
00:16:01,851 --> 00:16:06,117
- [insects chirping]
- [dog barks]
200
00:16:06,183 --> 00:16:07,951
[female reporter on TV]
<i>Six hours and counting.</i>
201
00:16:08,018 --> 00:16:11,350
<i>The jury in Steven Avery's trial
continues to deliberate.</i>
202
00:16:11,417 --> 00:16:14,717
<i>Thanks for joining us. The case
went to the jury yesterday afternoon.</i>
203
00:16:14,784 --> 00:16:16,784
<i>But all the work it did
was scrapped this morning</i>
204
00:16:16,851 --> 00:16:19,417
<i>after a juror was excused
because of a family emergency.</i>
205
00:16:19,484 --> 00:16:22,083
<i>Action 2 News reporter Emily Matesic
joins us live from Chilton</i>
206
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:23,517
<i>with the latest there. Emily.</i>
207
00:16:23,584 --> 00:16:26,117
<i>Well, Bill, that juror
was actually excused last night,</i>
208
00:16:26,183 --> 00:16:28,484
<i>- but we didn't find out until...</i>
- I don't know what that would mean.
209
00:16:28,551 --> 00:16:30,083
<i>...the juror notified
the court last night...</i>
210
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:32,150
Not so good? I don't know.
211
00:16:32,217 --> 00:16:34,984
<i>This morning, the attorneys
were in court to decide how to proceed.</i>
212
00:16:35,050 --> 00:16:37,050
<i>The judge gave them three options.</i>
213
00:16:37,117 --> 00:16:40,350
<i>- Number one... 11 jurors.</i>
- Long as the jury says "not guilty."
214
00:16:40,417 --> 00:16:42,951
<i>The second option was
to bring in an alternate juror...</i>
215
00:16:43,018 --> 00:16:45,384
- That he's innocent.
<i>- The third was to declare a mistrial.</i>
216
00:16:45,450 --> 00:16:48,717
Vince and Diane, the deliberations
are now back to square one.
217
00:16:48,784 --> 00:16:52,450
One of the jurors was dismissed
a little after 9:00 last night
218
00:16:52,517 --> 00:16:54,651
because of a family emergency.
219
00:16:54,717 --> 00:16:57,450
So an alternate juror
had to be brought into the mix
220
00:16:57,517 --> 00:16:59,117
to complete the 12 jurors
221
00:16:59,183 --> 00:17:02,551
and that means everything they talked
about yesterday has to be thrown out
222
00:17:02,617 --> 00:17:05,150
and this jury has to start again
from square one.
223
00:17:05,217 --> 00:17:06,784
News that that juror had been dismissed
224
00:17:06,851 --> 00:17:09,951
came after the jury had been deliberating
for four and a half hours yesterday.
225
00:17:10,018 --> 00:17:13,417
Keep in mind, they've also
been sequestered now for two days.
226
00:17:13,484 --> 00:17:14,584
Under those circumstances,
227
00:17:14,651 --> 00:17:17,317
the judge decided that he would
investigate for himself
228
00:17:17,384 --> 00:17:19,751
the seriousness of this family emergency.
229
00:17:19,817 --> 00:17:21,083
After a couple of phone calls,
230
00:17:21,150 --> 00:17:24,317
he concluded that the juror
did indeed need to be dismissed,
231
00:17:24,384 --> 00:17:27,050
but that in turn created
another potential problem.
232
00:17:27,117 --> 00:17:30,050
Should the deliberations continue
with just 11 jurors?
233
00:17:30,117 --> 00:17:32,250
Which according to the judge
was an option.
234
00:17:32,317 --> 00:17:36,717
Should a mistrial be declared
or should an alternate juror be seated?
235
00:17:36,784 --> 00:17:38,851
This was all up to Steven Avery
and in the end,
236
00:17:38,918 --> 00:17:43,384
he opted to have an alternate juror
come into the jury pool.
237
00:17:50,684 --> 00:17:52,350
[Steven on phone]
<i>I guess I'm feeling pretty good.</i>
238
00:17:53,951 --> 00:17:56,817
<i>As long as everything is going smooth,
and I think it is.</i>
239
00:17:59,984 --> 00:18:01,817
<i>They got the other juror on.</i>
240
00:18:02,751 --> 00:18:05,284
<i>So that's... I think it's a good thing.</i>
241
00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:08,150
<i>Hopefully,
they'll go through the evidence</i>
242
00:18:08,217 --> 00:18:10,217
<i>and try to make sense of it.</i>
243
00:18:11,484 --> 00:18:13,984
<i>That's the only thing
that's gonna help me.</i>
244
00:18:17,183 --> 00:18:18,551
I got hope.
245
00:18:19,851 --> 00:18:22,083
That they're gonna do the right thing.
246
00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:23,918
Tell 'em that he's innocent.
247
00:18:27,250 --> 00:18:30,117
I know God is on my side, on his side.
248
00:18:52,484 --> 00:18:55,484
[indistinct chatter]
249
00:19:07,617 --> 00:19:12,584
[Steven on phone]<i> If they</i>
<i>find me guilty... it's gonna be hard.</i>
250
00:19:13,817 --> 00:19:18,617
<i>I don't see how I can do a life bid
for something I didn't do.</i>
251
00:19:18,684 --> 00:19:23,050
<i>You know, why have my family go through
all of this and everything else?</i>
252
00:19:23,117 --> 00:19:26,751
<i>You know, I might as well just
get it over with, take the other way out.</i>
253
00:19:27,617 --> 00:19:29,751
<i>You know?
I hate to think about it.</i>
254
00:19:30,918 --> 00:19:33,884
<i>But I don't feel like doing a life bid
for something I didn't do.</i>
255
00:19:37,117 --> 00:19:40,117
[telephone line ringing]
256
00:19:41,717 --> 00:19:43,817
- [Strang] Hello?
- Dean?
257
00:19:43,884 --> 00:19:45,717
- Yeah. Hi, Dolores.
- Hi.
258
00:19:45,784 --> 00:19:47,851
What's going on yet?
259
00:19:47,918 --> 00:19:52,284
Nothing. We'll know in about
half an hour, 45 minutes,
260
00:19:52,350 --> 00:19:54,684
how long the jury's gonna work tonight.
261
00:19:54,751 --> 00:19:57,117
- Oh. Uh-huh.
- Um...
262
00:19:57,183 --> 00:20:03,083
They asked a question earlier, wanting
a whole bunch of testimony read back,
263
00:20:03,150 --> 00:20:07,417
and the judge said,
"Well, we can't read..."
264
00:20:07,484 --> 00:20:10,250
- They wanted all of Bobby Dassey.
- Uh-huh.
265
00:20:10,317 --> 00:20:13,250
And the judge said, "Well, we...
You know, we can't read all of him back,
266
00:20:13,317 --> 00:20:16,317
so just tell us what
specifically you want."
267
00:20:16,384 --> 00:20:17,984
And we haven't heard back from the jurors.
268
00:20:18,050 --> 00:20:19,317
[Dolores] Oh, yeah?
269
00:20:19,384 --> 00:20:22,150
I'll call you though when we know
when they're gonna quit tonight.
270
00:20:22,217 --> 00:20:23,851
Yeah. OK then, Dean.
271
00:20:23,918 --> 00:20:26,350
- OK. Thanks. Bye.
- OK. Yeah. Bye.
272
00:20:26,417 --> 00:20:28,984
[chuckles]
273
00:20:30,450 --> 00:20:32,384
"Dean Strang had me in tears this morning.
274
00:20:32,450 --> 00:20:35,784
It's probably a good thing that he isn't
the only defense lawyer on this case
275
00:20:35,851 --> 00:20:36,951
'cause he'd win it.
276
00:20:37,018 --> 00:20:40,018
Or come close to swaying people
who might be dead-set on a guilty verdict,
277
00:20:40,083 --> 00:20:41,984
in my opinion.
278
00:20:42,050 --> 00:20:46,851
Jerry Buting comes across very abrasive.
Almost whiny at times." [chuckles]
279
00:20:46,918 --> 00:20:49,018
[Strang] Hm.
280
00:20:49,083 --> 00:20:51,018
Viewer emails about Buting.
281
00:20:52,751 --> 00:20:54,050
Really?
282
00:20:54,117 --> 00:20:56,083
She's got it posted now.
283
00:20:56,851 --> 00:20:58,250
This is interesting.
284
00:20:58,317 --> 00:21:01,117
"The guy scares me.
I am afraid Avery might walk
285
00:21:01,183 --> 00:21:03,150
and I think he is definitely guilty.
286
00:21:03,217 --> 00:21:05,651
Do you happen to know
what the Averys do during lunch?
287
00:21:05,717 --> 00:21:09,083
I am thinking that the people of Chilton
might not be too kind to them
288
00:21:09,150 --> 00:21:11,083
if they came in the restaurants."
289
00:21:12,217 --> 00:21:13,918
Quite the contrary.
290
00:21:17,951 --> 00:21:19,851
Yeah. Well, OK then, Dean.
291
00:21:22,018 --> 00:21:25,517
Yeah? OK. Sure. OK. Bye.
292
00:21:28,018 --> 00:21:30,884
They may be getting close to a verdic...
verdict.
293
00:21:30,951 --> 00:21:32,717
He doesn't know.
But they're gonna stay.
294
00:21:32,784 --> 00:21:34,284
They're having their, uh...
295
00:21:35,851 --> 00:21:38,584
uh... supper there.
296
00:21:39,884 --> 00:21:41,651
And they're gonna stay there.
297
00:22:05,551 --> 00:22:07,884
[indistinct chatter]
298
00:22:22,284 --> 00:22:25,284
[Buting] Why do you think you're here?
Why is it you're here?
299
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:28,150
Sitting in jail waiting for a verdict?
300
00:22:34,684 --> 00:22:35,651
Well...
301
00:22:49,450 --> 00:22:51,117
I don't know how to answer that.
302
00:22:51,951 --> 00:22:53,817
Yeah, that's a kinda tough question.
303
00:22:53,884 --> 00:22:54,984
Yeah, it is.
304
00:22:55,751 --> 00:22:58,150
Let me start...
Let me try something easier.
305
00:22:58,217 --> 00:23:02,584
[clears throat] Um...
306
00:23:02,651 --> 00:23:05,784
What has this trial been like for you?
307
00:23:05,851 --> 00:23:09,183
What kind of feelings have you had
about this trial as it's gone on?
308
00:23:15,851 --> 00:23:17,951
Mostly if they're gonna believe me or not.
309
00:23:19,050 --> 00:23:23,717
If justice is gonna... be right this time.
310
00:23:23,784 --> 00:23:25,551
Than like last time.
311
00:23:27,884 --> 00:23:31,484
You know, last time, it didn't
take 'em long and they found me guilty.
312
00:23:35,450 --> 00:23:39,018
You know, I think about that...
probably all the time.
313
00:23:45,517 --> 00:23:48,050
A court official has
just come into the media room
314
00:23:48,117 --> 00:23:50,417
and announced that we do have a verdict.
315
00:23:50,484 --> 00:23:54,817
The jury has reached a verdict
after about 20-plus hours of deliberation
316
00:23:54,884 --> 00:23:58,751
and that verdict will be read
at 5:30 this evening.
317
00:23:58,817 --> 00:24:01,250
Reporting live in Chilton, Dan O'Donnell,
318
00:24:01,317 --> 00:24:04,050
News Radio 620, WTMJ.
319
00:24:09,851 --> 00:24:12,484
OK, you're ten minutes away or...?
320
00:24:12,551 --> 00:24:14,817
[Dolores indistinct on phone]
321
00:24:14,884 --> 00:24:18,651
OK. All right, we will, um...
we'll be outside wait...
322
00:24:18,717 --> 00:24:20,350
We'll be outside waiting for you.
323
00:24:21,150 --> 00:24:22,617
OK. Bye.
324
00:24:41,384 --> 00:24:47,183
[Strang] The room is open, our little
room, so as soon as court's done,
325
00:24:47,250 --> 00:24:51,217
go to that room if you would and Jerry
and I will get to it as soon as we can...
326
00:24:51,284 --> 00:24:54,018
- OK.
- ...with you. We're gonna stop there,
327
00:24:54,083 --> 00:24:57,183
it'll be a very few minutes
and we're gonna send you home. OK?
328
00:24:57,250 --> 00:25:00,117
And we'll talk later in the week,
good or bad.
329
00:25:00,183 --> 00:25:03,717
Either way, you know, 'cause there
are gonna be questions and follow-up...
330
00:25:03,784 --> 00:25:05,851
If they say he's innocent,
he goes home though, tonight?
331
00:25:05,918 --> 00:25:07,651
Of all three counts,
if they say he's innocent,
332
00:25:07,717 --> 00:25:09,651
- he goes home tonight.
- Oh, yeah, that's what I mean.
333
00:25:09,717 --> 00:25:13,517
And that's one of the reasons we're
just gonna spend a few minutes with you,
334
00:25:13,584 --> 00:25:15,484
- is we gotta get down to see Steve.
- Mm-hm.
335
00:25:15,551 --> 00:25:18,018
If he's innocent or not,
we gotta go see him.
336
00:25:18,117 --> 00:25:23,317
- Yeah.
- And make sure nobody follows you... home.
337
00:25:23,384 --> 00:25:26,417
OK? If Steve is found not guilty,
338
00:25:26,484 --> 00:25:29,484
you're gonna have some very angry people
in the community.
339
00:25:29,551 --> 00:25:31,250
So make sure you're not being followed.
340
00:25:31,317 --> 00:25:34,517
If you are, come right back here
and go to a state patrol.
341
00:25:39,150 --> 00:25:40,284
Yeah. Thank you.
342
00:26:01,250 --> 00:26:03,584
[Judge Willis] Members of the jury,
the court has been informed
343
00:26:03,651 --> 00:26:06,018
that the jury has reached
its verdicts in this case.
344
00:26:06,083 --> 00:26:11,517
At this time, I will ask the foreperson
to present the verdicts to the bailiff
345
00:26:11,584 --> 00:26:13,684
so that they may be brought forward.
346
00:26:43,350 --> 00:26:46,617
At this time,
the court will read the verdicts.
347
00:26:46,684 --> 00:26:49,784
On count one,
the verdict reads as follows:
348
00:26:49,851 --> 00:26:53,717
"We, the jury, find the defendant,
Steven A. Avery,
349
00:26:53,784 --> 00:26:56,651
guilty of first degree
intentional homicide
350
00:26:56,717 --> 00:26:59,817
as charged in the first count
of the information."
351
00:27:01,484 --> 00:27:03,517
On count two, the verdict reads:
352
00:27:03,584 --> 00:27:06,617
"We, the jury, find the defendant,
Steven A. Avery,
353
00:27:06,684 --> 00:27:09,018
not guilty of mutilating a corpse
354
00:27:09,083 --> 00:27:12,350
as charged in the second count
of the information."
355
00:27:13,951 --> 00:27:16,183
On count three, the verdict reads:
356
00:27:16,250 --> 00:27:19,350
"We, the jury, find the defendant,
Steven Avery,
357
00:27:19,417 --> 00:27:21,617
guilty of possession of a firearm,
358
00:27:21,684 --> 00:27:24,951
as charged in the third count
of the information."
359
00:27:28,984 --> 00:27:35,150
The verdict on count one is signed by
the foreperson of the jury, dated today.
360
00:27:36,617 --> 00:27:41,350
The other verdicts are also signed
by the foreperson of the jury.
361
00:27:45,817 --> 00:27:48,918
Members of the jury,
on behalf of Manitowoc County,
362
00:27:48,984 --> 00:27:53,183
I would like to express my sincerest
gratitude and appreciation
363
00:27:53,250 --> 00:27:55,817
for your service in this case.
[voice fading out]
364
00:27:55,884 --> 00:27:58,284
I recognize the personal sacrifice
365
00:27:58,350 --> 00:28:01,817
that the court has required of you
during this trial.
366
00:28:01,884 --> 00:28:06,050
That sacrifice is a necessary part
of the price we pay
367
00:28:06,117 --> 00:28:10,183
for the judicial system
every citizen enjoys.
368
00:28:10,250 --> 00:28:13,784
I hope that you found the experience
a rewarding one.
369
00:28:13,851 --> 00:28:15,984
At this time, you are excused.
370
00:29:11,018 --> 00:29:13,717
[indistinct chatter]
371
00:29:34,217 --> 00:29:39,284
We're obviously happy with the results.
372
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:43,684
We believe that a just result
was reached in this trial.
373
00:29:44,851 --> 00:29:49,551
We had a pretty good idea
going into this prosecution
374
00:29:49,617 --> 00:29:52,450
the kind of individual that Mr. Avery was.
375
00:29:52,517 --> 00:29:56,117
I think that what Mr. Avery did
to Teresa Halbach
376
00:29:56,183 --> 00:30:01,684
should speak volumes as to the kind
of person that... that Mr. Avery is,
377
00:30:01,751 --> 00:30:06,450
and that's why I'm very happy
that the citizens of Manitowoc County
378
00:30:06,517 --> 00:30:10,551
won't need to worry about Mr. Avery
being on their streets anymore.
379
00:30:11,751 --> 00:30:12,884
OK.
380
00:30:12,951 --> 00:30:16,951
Just on a personal note, I'm sure I speak
on behalf of the entire prosecution team
381
00:30:17,018 --> 00:30:20,384
in thanking all of you
for allowing us to, uh...
382
00:30:20,450 --> 00:30:24,984
to kind of host this... this trial
for you here in little Calumet County,
383
00:30:25,050 --> 00:30:28,350
so with that, have a good evening.
Thank you, everyone.
384
00:30:28,417 --> 00:30:30,150
- [man 1] Thank you, gentlemen.
- [man 2] Thank you.
385
00:30:33,484 --> 00:30:36,018
[indistinct chatter]
386
00:30:43,284 --> 00:30:44,317
All right.
387
00:30:44,384 --> 00:30:46,817
[female reporter] Do you think that's
some kind of compromise by the jury?
388
00:30:46,884 --> 00:30:50,617
I... You know,
you'd have to ask jurors that.
389
00:30:50,684 --> 00:30:55,350
Um, but... I can't explain
how one would arrive
390
00:30:55,417 --> 00:31:00,450
at, um, what clearly seemed
to be inconsistent verdicts.
391
00:31:00,517 --> 00:31:03,384
It's not the first time
that's ever happened though either.
392
00:31:03,450 --> 00:31:06,884
You talked about this process
as potentially being redemptive
393
00:31:06,951 --> 00:31:08,384
and you get a little emotional about it.
394
00:31:08,450 --> 00:31:10,117
I mean, now you've been
through this process.
395
00:31:10,183 --> 00:31:13,851
- Was it the redemption you'd hoped for?
- No. Redemption will have to wait,
396
00:31:13,918 --> 00:31:15,984
as it so often does in human affairs.
397
00:31:16,050 --> 00:31:19,083
Um... it just will have to wait.
398
00:31:19,150 --> 00:31:24,183
Our criminal justice system
failed Steven Avery badly in 1985.
399
00:31:24,250 --> 00:31:28,150
It failed him time and time again
after 1985.
400
00:31:28,217 --> 00:31:31,617
Um... I fear this is one more failure,
401
00:31:31,684 --> 00:31:38,183
in spite of everyone's best efforts,
um, and honest efforts.
402
00:31:38,250 --> 00:31:44,018
So I'm very sad at a personal level
because I've lost a case.
403
00:31:44,083 --> 00:31:48,417
I'm sad at a broader level,
um, that we'll...
404
00:31:48,484 --> 00:31:50,951
We... You know, in human life,
405
00:31:51,018 --> 00:31:56,050
we just haven't mastered justice
any better than we have.
406
00:31:56,117 --> 00:31:59,484
So do you think that there's a killer
out there that the police have not caught?
407
00:31:59,551 --> 00:32:01,651
[Buting] Absolutely. I mean...
408
00:32:04,018 --> 00:32:06,183
That's been our position all along.
409
00:32:06,951 --> 00:32:09,284
Do you think
the guilty verdict on the homicide
410
00:32:09,350 --> 00:32:11,217
makes it more likely or less likely
411
00:32:11,284 --> 00:32:13,384
that Brendan Dassey
would be found guilty of that?
412
00:32:13,450 --> 00:32:15,617
We're not gonna comment
on Brendan Dassey's case at all.
413
00:32:15,684 --> 00:32:18,450
- Not gonna comment about it.
- At all.
414
00:32:18,517 --> 00:32:20,784
Neither should you. Um...
415
00:32:20,851 --> 00:32:25,150
How's that for being judgmental
on a day of judgments here?
416
00:32:25,217 --> 00:32:31,717
Um... this is a kid who
has a trial upcoming and, um...
417
00:32:33,183 --> 00:32:36,884
I'd like to see him start
with a stronger presumption of innocence
418
00:32:36,951 --> 00:32:41,784
than his adult uncle was able to.
419
00:32:44,183 --> 00:32:45,884
- [man] Thank you, gentlemen.
- [woman] Thank you.
420
00:32:45,951 --> 00:32:47,117
All right.
421
00:33:18,851 --> 00:33:21,284
The way it turned out?
422
00:33:24,150 --> 00:33:26,217
They got their way.
423
00:33:26,284 --> 00:33:27,651
Period.
424
00:33:27,717 --> 00:33:29,884
Manitowoc County won again.
425
00:33:56,884 --> 00:33:57,984
Sergeant Andrew Colborn,
426
00:33:58,050 --> 00:34:00,584
one of the law enforcement officers
accused of planting evidence,
427
00:34:00,651 --> 00:34:03,018
released a statement today.
It reads in part,
428
00:34:03,083 --> 00:34:06,450
"I hope and pray that this verdict
helps put to rest any suspicions
429
00:34:06,517 --> 00:34:10,284
or loss of confidence that this community
may have felt towards our department,
430
00:34:10,350 --> 00:34:12,284
because I assure everyone
that this agency
431
00:34:12,350 --> 00:34:14,918
has some of the finest law enforcement
officers in the country
432
00:34:14,984 --> 00:34:16,350
in its employ." End quote.
433
00:34:16,417 --> 00:34:18,817
[male reporter 2] Fox 11 also spoke
with Scott Tadych,
434
00:34:18,884 --> 00:34:20,350
Steven Avery's brother-in-law.
435
00:34:20,417 --> 00:34:24,651
He said, quote, "What happened yesterday
is the best thing in the world."
436
00:34:24,717 --> 00:34:28,250
And also,
"He got what he got comin' to him."
437
00:34:38,551 --> 00:34:41,117
I mean, I don't know if this
will make you feel good or bad,
438
00:34:41,183 --> 00:34:42,384
but the first vote, you know,
439
00:34:42,450 --> 00:34:44,484
a lot of times what jurors do
is they go in and they say,
440
00:34:44,551 --> 00:34:48,384
"OK, let's just take a... see a show of
hands where people are leaning right now."
441
00:34:48,450 --> 00:34:50,817
Seven for not guilty.
442
00:34:50,884 --> 00:34:55,784
The vote was seven innocent,
three guilty and two undecided.
443
00:34:55,851 --> 00:34:58,117
That's the way they started off.
444
00:34:58,183 --> 00:35:00,951
Now obviously it didn't
stay that way and...
445
00:35:08,050 --> 00:35:11,083
[man] The majority of us
were easygoing and laid-back.
446
00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:16,117
But, um... there were
a couple stubborn ones, too.
447
00:35:16,183 --> 00:35:22,284
And, um, it seems like stubborn people
can sway softer people their way.
448
00:35:22,350 --> 00:35:23,984
It's just... I don't know.
449
00:35:24,050 --> 00:35:27,183
For some reason, psychologically,
I think that's possible.
450
00:35:28,884 --> 00:35:33,817
I know there were three that were stubborn
and, you know, weren't participating.
451
00:35:35,018 --> 00:35:38,551
Which made me feel uncomfortable,
being there.
452
00:35:38,617 --> 00:35:41,350
I deliberated for four hours
with the jury
453
00:35:41,417 --> 00:35:44,284
and had to leave
because of a medical emergency.
454
00:35:44,350 --> 00:35:45,551
And, um...
455
00:35:47,350 --> 00:35:50,918
I felt there were some biased jurors
that didn't, you know, keep an open mind
456
00:35:50,984 --> 00:35:56,551
and they had their mind made up,
you know, before the trial started.
457
00:35:56,617 --> 00:35:59,617
Which I was pretty
discouraged about myself.
458
00:36:01,551 --> 00:36:03,417
All I know is that a lot of us were weak.
459
00:36:03,484 --> 00:36:06,018
Starting deliberations, weak and tired.
460
00:36:07,284 --> 00:36:10,450
I don't know if it was
a compromise, you know?
461
00:36:11,951 --> 00:36:16,183
"Let's just do something here
so we can get outta here."
462
00:36:16,250 --> 00:36:17,450
I don't know.
463
00:36:19,284 --> 00:36:22,784
To me, there's a lot
of unanswered questions.
464
00:36:24,083 --> 00:36:29,284
I mean, to me, I believe
we don't know... for sure.
465
00:36:29,350 --> 00:36:32,684
I mean, I don't know for sure
who killed Teresa.
466
00:36:32,751 --> 00:36:34,217
Or how it happened.
467
00:36:35,551 --> 00:36:40,751
I mean, all I have
is statements from... both sides.
468
00:36:41,684 --> 00:36:46,317
But I don't think anybody'll ever know
what actually happened.
469
00:36:59,450 --> 00:37:04,217
[Baetz] Mr. Kratz
is an experienced prosecutor.
470
00:37:04,284 --> 00:37:06,584
Mr. Kratz knows right from wrong.
471
00:37:06,651 --> 00:37:08,784
Mr. Kratz knows ethics.
472
00:37:08,851 --> 00:37:13,851
Mr. Kratz acted unprofessionally in this.
473
00:37:13,918 --> 00:37:16,484
I can't respect him for it.
474
00:37:16,551 --> 00:37:19,684
He's supposed to be seeking the truth.
475
00:37:19,751 --> 00:37:23,083
This wasn't seeking a truth,
he was seeking a conviction.
476
00:37:23,918 --> 00:37:27,551
And... as a district attorney,
477
00:37:27,617 --> 00:37:31,984
he is responsible above everybody on this.
478
00:37:32,018 --> 00:37:33,317
He called the shots.
479
00:37:33,384 --> 00:37:36,083
He told the cops which way
he wanted 'em to run
480
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:42,417
and he is probably the most culpable
of anybody for this.
481
00:37:42,484 --> 00:37:47,183
And they gave him an award
for winning this case. It's...
482
00:37:49,417 --> 00:37:53,217
What's going on now just proves,
in my opinion,
483
00:37:53,284 --> 00:37:58,751
proves that... how hell-bent
they were on nailing him.
484
00:37:59,817 --> 00:38:05,484
You know, how dare an Avery
make County look bad.
485
00:38:05,551 --> 00:38:06,784
You know.
486
00:38:06,851 --> 00:38:09,250
Now it's turned back around again.
487
00:38:09,317 --> 00:38:11,784
The county's making Avery look bad.
488
00:38:11,851 --> 00:38:14,884
And I think that's right
where they wanted it to be.
489
00:38:14,951 --> 00:38:17,817
You know,
it played right out in their hand.
490
00:38:24,117 --> 00:38:27,083
[door creaking]
491
00:38:35,851 --> 00:38:39,417
[Strang] If it's all right with you guys,
I'd like to have a talk about Brendan.
492
00:38:39,484 --> 00:38:41,350
Um...
493
00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:45,884
- Sort of a heart-to-heart on this. Um...
- Mm-hm.
494
00:38:45,951 --> 00:38:48,484
I don't know where your family is on this,
495
00:38:48,551 --> 00:38:53,350
but as horrible as this is
for a 44-year-old man,
496
00:38:53,417 --> 00:38:57,284
it's ten times worse when
you're talking about a 17-year-old boy
497
00:38:57,350 --> 00:39:01,918
who's not very bright and, um...
498
00:39:02,517 --> 00:39:04,684
you know, hasn't had a chance in life.
499
00:39:05,751 --> 00:39:09,918
Um... Now I know we lost the trial,
500
00:39:09,984 --> 00:39:13,851
but I think now this community
is a lot less certain
501
00:39:13,918 --> 00:39:16,350
that Steven and Brendan did it
502
00:39:16,417 --> 00:39:19,884
than they were before
we started Steven's case.
503
00:39:19,951 --> 00:39:22,117
Yeah, because we're getting
more letters that he's innocent.
504
00:39:22,183 --> 00:39:26,083
- "A hundred percent innocent," she says.
- That has to help Brendan.
505
00:39:26,951 --> 00:39:32,984
And when the... when the prosecutor
stands up in closing arguments, you guys,
506
00:39:33,050 --> 00:39:36,784
and says, "All the evidence shows
that one man and one man only
507
00:39:36,851 --> 00:39:39,284
is responsible for the death
of Teresa Halbach..."
508
00:39:39,350 --> 00:39:42,517
- One.
- One. One and one only.
509
00:39:42,584 --> 00:39:44,517
- Yeah.
- Meaning Steven Avery.
510
00:39:44,584 --> 00:39:46,117
- Yeah.
- So how do you come in
511
00:39:46,183 --> 00:39:51,584
and prosecute a 17-year-old boy
after you've stood up and said that?
512
00:39:51,651 --> 00:39:55,350
That Mark and Tom?
That Tom called up Scotty the other day.
513
00:39:55,417 --> 00:40:01,617
Scotty was supposed to get Barbara
to tell Brendan to take the plea bargain.
514
00:40:01,684 --> 00:40:04,417
- [Lloyd] No. That would be a no-no.
- [Carla] And that's 15.
515
00:40:05,284 --> 00:40:06,984
- [Lloyd] That's asking...
- Did she tell you that too?
516
00:40:07,050 --> 00:40:10,984
[Carla] The plea is 15 years.
And then 15 probation.
517
00:40:11,050 --> 00:40:14,217
[Strang] Um... So, I mean, seriously?
518
00:40:14,284 --> 00:40:17,050
- Tom called Scott Tadych...
- Mm-hm.
519
00:40:17,117 --> 00:40:18,951
...and said, "Tell your wife
to make her son..."
520
00:40:19,018 --> 00:40:20,684
- That's what she told me.
- "...take the deal."
521
00:40:20,751 --> 00:40:23,817
- [Carla] Yeah, she said that to me too.
- [Strang] And what does Scott...
522
00:40:23,884 --> 00:40:26,284
Is Scott doing that kind of thing?
523
00:40:26,350 --> 00:40:28,951
He's never seemed to me
to be on Brendan's side.
524
00:40:29,018 --> 00:40:31,951
[Carla] Oh, he told Barbara.
And Barbara said there's no way.
525
00:40:34,350 --> 00:40:38,150
Lead prosecutor Ken Kratz
knows his job is only half done.
526
00:40:38,217 --> 00:40:40,484
Avery's co-defendant
and nephew Brendan Dassey
527
00:40:40,551 --> 00:40:43,617
goes to trial on April 16th
in Manitowoc County,
528
00:40:43,684 --> 00:40:46,417
that trial expected
to last two weeks.
529
00:41:06,083 --> 00:41:08,684
So a victory for you
with the change of venue,
530
00:41:08,751 --> 00:41:11,450
bringing the jury in
from another county?
531
00:41:11,517 --> 00:41:13,150
I don't know if you want
to call it a victory,
532
00:41:13,217 --> 00:41:16,651
but I think it's important
that the jury be a fair jury,
533
00:41:16,717 --> 00:41:18,217
and I think this is a way to ensure that.
534
00:41:18,284 --> 00:41:20,083
When's the last time
you talked to Brendan?
535
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:23,083
Uh, we just did. No, I... We...
536
00:41:23,150 --> 00:41:26,617
I met with him actually twice
in the last, you know, seven days.
537
00:41:26,684 --> 00:41:29,450
- How's he doing? What's his...?
- He's fine. Yeah.
538
00:41:29,517 --> 00:41:31,350
- Do you have any concerns...
- He's a very quiet person.
539
00:41:31,417 --> 00:41:34,584
Do you anticipate, um,
discussing with the State
540
00:41:34,651 --> 00:41:36,784
the possibility of a plea agreement?
541
00:41:36,851 --> 00:41:40,150
Because that has been something
prior counsel I guess had discussed.
542
00:41:40,217 --> 00:41:41,751
- Plea negotiations?
- [female reporter] Correct.
543
00:41:41,817 --> 00:41:43,951
Uh... they'll be offered, I'm sure,
544
00:41:44,018 --> 00:41:47,817
but once again, we're dealing
with preparing for April 16th for trial.
545
00:41:47,884 --> 00:41:50,317
That's the way we're gonna
continue to prepare.
546
00:41:52,817 --> 00:41:58,517
[Fremgen] When we actually got copies of
motions and the file from the prosecutor,
547
00:41:58,584 --> 00:42:03,250
we realized that there
had been some major missteps,
548
00:42:03,317 --> 00:42:07,317
and so we were not only
going to be representing somebody,
549
00:42:07,384 --> 00:42:08,918
but we're also now having to go back
550
00:42:08,984 --> 00:42:10,984
and try to correct mistakes
that are already made.
551
00:42:11,050 --> 00:42:13,651
And that's...
That makes it a little more difficult,
552
00:42:13,717 --> 00:42:16,717
because you don't usually
get more than one crack at it.
553
00:42:16,784 --> 00:42:20,984
And now we're kind of thrown in there
to try to fix a problem,
554
00:42:21,050 --> 00:42:23,417
along with trying to represent somebody.
555
00:42:23,484 --> 00:42:26,951
Mark asked me, you know,
would I be interested in helping.
556
00:42:27,018 --> 00:42:32,018
And after he persuaded me a little bit,
I said sure. [chuckles]
557
00:42:32,117 --> 00:42:33,984
I think Ray was being nice
by saying I asked him.
558
00:42:34,050 --> 00:42:38,050
I pled with him to help me on this case,
559
00:42:38,117 --> 00:42:41,584
because it certainly isn't the case
that you can just have one person
560
00:42:41,651 --> 00:42:44,317
and there's not a lot
of attorneys in Oshkosh
561
00:42:44,384 --> 00:42:47,217
that have a background
dealing with homicides.
562
00:42:47,284 --> 00:42:52,951
And this will be my fifth
or sixth homicide case.
563
00:42:53,018 --> 00:42:56,117
Um, second trial, homicide trial.
564
00:43:25,951 --> 00:43:27,984
At least they believe in him.
565
00:43:33,784 --> 00:43:35,417
That's the main thing.
566
00:43:38,918 --> 00:43:40,684
And I believe in him.
567
00:44:11,317 --> 00:44:14,851
[Barb on phone] You tell everybody the
truth when you gotta get up on the stand.
568
00:44:16,551 --> 00:44:19,183
[Brendan] Yeah, but look at all the stuff
that they can use, though.
569
00:44:20,784 --> 00:44:23,617
- [Barb] What's that?
- [Brendan] All my statements.
570
00:44:24,684 --> 00:44:27,617
[Barb] Well, what did you tell me?
How did you give your statements?
571
00:44:30,050 --> 00:44:34,083
[Brendan] Well, they talked... They kept on
asking me the questions and that.
572
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:35,217
[Barb] OK, then.
573
00:44:35,284 --> 00:44:37,284
[Brendan] Until they heard
what they wanted.
574
00:44:37,350 --> 00:44:40,183
[Barb] That's what you need to tell
when you get up on the stand.
575
00:44:40,250 --> 00:44:42,317
That's what you need to tell them.
576
00:44:42,384 --> 00:44:46,651
The truth.
577
00:44:46,717 --> 00:44:49,717
[theme music plays]
578
00:44:49,751 --> 00:44:54,751
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
==========EPISODE 9=============
1
00:00:14,584 --> 00:00:18,450
Well, if they framed Steven Avery...
2
00:00:20,450 --> 00:00:25,084
the question is,
is Brendan's case a whole charade too?
3
00:00:25,150 --> 00:00:27,283
I mean, that's ultimately
gonna be the question.
4
00:00:29,250 --> 00:00:32,884
Is his jury gonna believe
that he confessed to a crime
5
00:00:32,951 --> 00:00:35,717
he never even commit...
a murder he never committed?
6
00:00:42,018 --> 00:00:44,550
- [theme music plays]
- [geese honking]
7
00:01:45,194 --> 00:01:50,194
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
8
00:01:55,350 --> 00:01:59,851
[Kratz] The two questions that the State
is gonna ask you to answer are these.
9
00:01:59,917 --> 00:02:04,283
Number one: Was he there?
10
00:02:06,051 --> 00:02:09,384
And number two: Did he help?
11
00:02:11,450 --> 00:02:15,384
Was he there and did he help?
12
00:02:18,250 --> 00:02:21,450
Now, you're gonna hear in this case
that there was nothing unique
13
00:02:21,517 --> 00:02:25,450
about the March 1st interrogation
of Brendan Dassey.
14
00:02:25,517 --> 00:02:29,484
We're gonna show you start to finish
the entire admission.
15
00:02:29,550 --> 00:02:31,584
I think it's about four hours long.
16
00:02:31,651 --> 00:02:34,384
And some of the details may be disturbing.
17
00:02:35,317 --> 00:02:37,317
Now we have to give you those details.
18
00:02:37,384 --> 00:02:41,550
We have to play
the entire statement for you.
19
00:02:41,617 --> 00:02:43,884
Your job at the end of this case
will decide
20
00:02:43,951 --> 00:02:48,018
whether that statement
ought to be believed.
21
00:02:48,084 --> 00:02:52,717
We're gonna briefly go through
what Brendan Dassey says on March 1st.
22
00:02:52,784 --> 00:02:57,751
Brendan's version
of what happened to Teresa Halbach.
23
00:02:57,817 --> 00:03:03,651
Brendan Dassey, in again,
sometimes graphic detail,
24
00:03:03,717 --> 00:03:07,784
will talk about approaching
Uncle Steve's trailer.
25
00:03:07,851 --> 00:03:10,817
And before he even knocks on the door,
he hears screaming.
26
00:03:11,484 --> 00:03:17,183
Brendan actually sees Teresa shackled
with handcuffs and leg irons to the bed.
27
00:03:17,250 --> 00:03:22,450
And by force and by violence, he has
sexual intercourse with Teresa Halbach.
28
00:03:23,517 --> 00:03:29,350
After the rape, Steven Avery praises his
nephew and says, "That's how you do it."
29
00:03:30,350 --> 00:03:32,784
Then Steven and Brendan discuss
30
00:03:32,851 --> 00:03:36,851
if they should and how they should
kill Teresa Halbach.
31
00:03:36,917 --> 00:03:40,384
Steven Avery stabs the victim.
32
00:03:40,450 --> 00:03:46,283
Brendan Dassey, handed the knife by
Uncle Steve, cuts Teresa Halbach's throat.
33
00:03:46,350 --> 00:03:52,317
We're gonna be able to prove to you in
this case things the public didn't know,
34
00:03:52,384 --> 00:03:55,217
things the police didn't know
35
00:03:55,283 --> 00:03:59,517
were provided by a young man
who was at the scene.
36
00:03:59,584 --> 00:04:02,084
Was he there? Absolutely.
37
00:04:02,150 --> 00:04:04,584
Did he help? Absolutely.
38
00:04:08,484 --> 00:04:12,217
[Fremgen] It is important
to remember who is on trial.
39
00:04:12,283 --> 00:04:16,550
You'll hear days and days
of evidence about Steven Avery,
40
00:04:16,617 --> 00:04:20,817
his DNA, his blood found in the SUV,
41
00:04:20,884 --> 00:04:24,051
the bullet fragment found in his garage,
42
00:04:24,118 --> 00:04:28,051
the ignition key found in his bedroom.
43
00:04:28,118 --> 00:04:31,684
You won't hear the same evidence
involving Brendan Dassey.
44
00:04:33,417 --> 00:04:37,150
There won't be any DNA. No blood.
45
00:04:38,084 --> 00:04:40,250
No saliva.
46
00:04:40,317 --> 00:04:41,450
No sweat.
47
00:04:43,317 --> 00:04:46,118
No hair. Nothing.
48
00:04:47,517 --> 00:04:52,250
No science that's gonna point you
to Brendan Dassey.
49
00:04:52,917 --> 00:04:56,951
This is Brendan Dassey's trial,
not Steven's trial.
50
00:04:57,018 --> 00:05:01,217
It's about a 16-year-old
high school student
51
00:05:01,283 --> 00:05:04,550
with below-average cognitive abilities...
52
00:05:05,851 --> 00:05:07,784
a fourth-grade reading level.
53
00:05:07,851 --> 00:05:10,817
It's about a shy introvert,
54
00:05:10,884 --> 00:05:15,717
socially inept, suggestible child.
55
00:05:16,651 --> 00:05:21,617
You'll learn that Brendan will meet
two highly-trained, intelligent,
56
00:05:21,684 --> 00:05:23,817
adult police officers.
57
00:05:23,884 --> 00:05:28,317
At times they cozy up to Brendan
to get the answer they want.
58
00:05:28,384 --> 00:05:30,150
At times they pull back from Brendan
59
00:05:30,217 --> 00:05:34,084
when he's not giving them
the answer they want and they expect.
60
00:05:34,851 --> 00:05:36,550
It's like a new puppy dog.
61
00:05:37,651 --> 00:05:41,384
When he does what he's supposed to do,
he gets his pat on the head and a treat.
62
00:05:41,450 --> 00:05:44,217
"Good job, Brendan. Good job. Good boy."
63
00:05:44,283 --> 00:05:47,717
But when it's not what they want,
"We're leaving, Brendan.
64
00:05:47,784 --> 00:05:49,917
Until you tell us what we want to hear."
65
00:05:50,984 --> 00:05:55,684
When you watch the videos carefully,
they'll be exposed for what they are.
66
00:05:57,350 --> 00:05:59,350
And I think they're just garbage.
67
00:06:04,417 --> 00:06:06,417
[Barb] Love you, Brendan!
68
00:06:25,183 --> 00:06:29,450
This first statement that you're gonna
hear is going to be from an officer
69
00:06:29,517 --> 00:06:34,484
who was up in Marinette
and spoke to Brendan in...
70
00:06:34,550 --> 00:06:38,584
somewhere between November 4th
and November 10th.
71
00:06:38,651 --> 00:06:41,751
They actually spoke to him twice
so they may have both statements.
72
00:06:41,817 --> 00:06:44,751
One was written,
one was actually audiotaped.
73
00:06:44,817 --> 00:06:48,884
[Detective O'Neill] Last Monday,
do you remember seeing this girl at all?
74
00:06:48,951 --> 00:06:50,350
- [Brendan] I was at school.
- [O'Neill] OK.
75
00:06:50,417 --> 00:06:52,317
After school you come home.
76
00:06:53,784 --> 00:06:55,584
You ever see this girl before?
77
00:06:56,851 --> 00:07:00,984
[Brendan] I just knew about it on Thursday
because my mom called me
78
00:07:01,051 --> 00:07:02,917
and told me to turn on channel 11.
79
00:07:02,984 --> 00:07:04,384
- [O'Neill] OK.
- [Brendan] She was missing.
80
00:07:05,417 --> 00:07:07,217
[O'Neill] And you're dropped off,
it's such an event
81
00:07:07,283 --> 00:07:08,884
that someone's standing in your field
82
00:07:08,951 --> 00:07:13,751
taking a picture of that van...
that you remember that too, don't you?
83
00:07:14,917 --> 00:07:17,984
The bus driver remembers it,
the kids on the school bus remember it,
84
00:07:18,051 --> 00:07:20,317
the girl taking pictures,
you remember that?
85
00:07:23,317 --> 00:07:25,283
- [Brendan] Well, I wasn't looking at the...
- [O'Neill] Huh?
86
00:07:25,350 --> 00:07:27,051
[Brendan] I wasn't looking in the field.
87
00:07:27,118 --> 00:07:30,550
[O'Neill] It's either a yes or no, I mean
I'm not putting nothing in your mind.
88
00:07:32,584 --> 00:07:36,217
[Fallon] Now, tell us generally
about Mr. Dassey's demeanor
89
00:07:36,283 --> 00:07:39,350
during the course
of your interview with him.
90
00:07:39,417 --> 00:07:42,684
Um... I interview a lot of people and...
91
00:07:42,751 --> 00:07:47,183
Mr. Dassey's demeanor
was, uh... different.
92
00:07:47,250 --> 00:07:52,517
When it came to specifics
regarding Teresa Halbach, Steven Avery,
93
00:07:52,584 --> 00:07:59,517
what happened on that day, he'd sit there,
head down, withdrawn, motionless.
94
00:08:00,550 --> 00:08:03,951
It was a demeanor that I felt
from all the years of training experience
95
00:08:04,018 --> 00:08:05,517
that I've had in dealing with people,
96
00:08:05,584 --> 00:08:08,751
an inner struggle, a conflict,
he was hiding something.
97
00:08:08,817 --> 00:08:12,584
It was not gonna be a ten-minute interview
as to what he saw.
98
00:08:13,350 --> 00:08:15,051
There was something more.
99
00:08:15,118 --> 00:08:20,084
Detective, I guess you
would agree with me that you...
100
00:08:20,150 --> 00:08:24,118
you have no degrees of any sort,
101
00:08:24,183 --> 00:08:25,817
education or training,
102
00:08:25,884 --> 00:08:30,084
to evaluate why an individual
may react to you in the way they do.
103
00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:32,884
Is that a fair statement?
You're not a psychologist.
104
00:08:32,951 --> 00:08:35,217
- I'm not a psychologist, that's correct.
- OK.
105
00:08:35,283 --> 00:08:37,617
And certainly not a child psychologist.
106
00:08:37,684 --> 00:08:39,817
I am not a child psychologist,
that's correct.
107
00:08:39,884 --> 00:08:43,217
OK. You had never been around
this young man before, had you?
108
00:08:43,917 --> 00:08:45,817
- No.
- You had no idea what he acted like
109
00:08:45,884 --> 00:08:48,951
when he was dealing with a teacher,
for example.
110
00:08:49,851 --> 00:08:51,684
- No.
- You had no idea what he acted like
111
00:08:51,751 --> 00:08:56,684
when he was dealing with a person
like yourself, an authoritative figure.
112
00:08:56,751 --> 00:08:58,851
- Prior to our conversation, no.
- OK.
113
00:08:58,917 --> 00:09:01,751
You had no idea
whether you were dealing with
114
00:09:01,817 --> 00:09:04,951
what you might typically call
an average teenager
115
00:09:05,018 --> 00:09:08,651
or a teenager with any type
of limitations. Is that a fair statement?
116
00:09:08,717 --> 00:09:10,350
- Yes.
- OK.
117
00:09:11,817 --> 00:09:15,484
And you acknowledge there's nothing at all
in your report about his demeanor.
118
00:09:17,717 --> 00:09:19,217
No.
119
00:09:19,283 --> 00:09:23,517
So you're having to rely entirely
upon your memory
120
00:09:23,584 --> 00:09:26,651
- when you describe his demeanor.
- Yes.
121
00:09:26,717 --> 00:09:29,317
OK, and that's about 16 months ago, right?
122
00:09:29,384 --> 00:09:30,317
- Yes.
- OK.
123
00:09:37,550 --> 00:09:42,084
I think he's doing a damn good job.
Really good job.
124
00:09:52,717 --> 00:09:54,350
[metal detector beeps]
125
00:09:58,183 --> 00:10:03,384
[Fallon] Directing your attention
to February 20th, 2006,
126
00:10:03,450 --> 00:10:07,118
what plans, if any,
did you investigators have
127
00:10:07,183 --> 00:10:13,084
relative to speaking
with other members of the Avery family?
128
00:10:13,150 --> 00:10:14,651
[Wiegert] In order
to do a thorough investigation,
129
00:10:14,717 --> 00:10:17,717
we needed to go back
and talk to everybody who had access
130
00:10:17,784 --> 00:10:19,851
- or who lived on that property.
- All right.
131
00:10:19,917 --> 00:10:24,951
Now who was the first one of the family
members to be re-interviewed?
132
00:10:25,018 --> 00:10:29,851
By my recollection,
it was probably Kayla, most likely.
133
00:10:38,717 --> 00:10:40,851
[Wiegert] The interview started out
about Steve Avery
134
00:10:40,917 --> 00:10:44,851
and Kayla was talking about
her relationship with Steve Avery.
135
00:10:44,917 --> 00:10:48,250
And just about
at the end of that interview,
136
00:10:48,317 --> 00:10:52,617
Kayla, out of the blue,
basically came out and told us that, uh,
137
00:10:52,684 --> 00:10:56,150
she had a cousin by the name of Brendan
138
00:10:56,217 --> 00:10:59,617
and that Brendan
was, quote, "acting up lately."
139
00:10:59,684 --> 00:11:02,851
Brendan would just
start crying uncontrollably.
140
00:11:02,917 --> 00:11:08,951
She also told us that Brendan had lost
what she estimated to be about 40 pounds.
141
00:11:09,018 --> 00:11:14,051
Now, based on this information,
what did you decide to do?
142
00:11:14,118 --> 00:11:17,851
We decided that, um,
we needed to talk to Brendan again.
143
00:11:17,917 --> 00:11:19,484
And when did you talk to Brendan again?
144
00:11:19,550 --> 00:11:22,851
[Wiegert] On February 27th of 2006.
145
00:11:22,917 --> 00:11:28,651
Myself and Agent Fassbender
had went to the Mishicot school system
146
00:11:28,717 --> 00:11:31,651
and that's where we met with Mr. Dassey.
147
00:11:33,217 --> 00:11:35,283
[Fassbender]
Brendan, we know that on Halloween,
148
00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:38,417
you were with him
and helped him tend to a fire.
149
00:11:38,484 --> 00:11:40,517
What did you see in the fire?
150
00:11:41,283 --> 00:11:45,984
[Brendan] Some branches,
I saw a cabinet and some tires.
151
00:11:46,884 --> 00:11:48,617
[Fassbender] See any body parts?
152
00:11:50,584 --> 00:11:53,517
[Brendan] Well,
some garbage bags on there.
153
00:11:53,584 --> 00:11:56,717
[Fassbender] Mark and I, yeah, we're cops.
154
00:11:58,350 --> 00:12:00,317
But I'm not right now.
155
00:12:01,051 --> 00:12:03,817
I'm a father that has a kid your age, too.
156
00:12:05,150 --> 00:12:07,684
There's nothing I'd like more
than to come over and give you a hug
157
00:12:07,751 --> 00:12:09,484
'cause I know you're hurting.
158
00:12:09,550 --> 00:12:12,417
'Cause I gotta believe
you did see something in the fire.
159
00:12:13,317 --> 00:12:15,118
Talk about it.
160
00:12:16,684 --> 00:12:19,051
I promise, I will not
leave you high and dry.
161
00:12:19,118 --> 00:12:20,717
I'll stand behind you.
162
00:12:21,584 --> 00:12:24,751
[Wiegert] The burn pit, Brendan,
was no bigger than this table.
163
00:12:24,817 --> 00:12:28,051
I find it quite difficult to believe
that if there was a body in there
164
00:12:28,118 --> 00:12:33,051
that you wouldn't have seen something,
a hand, a foot, a head, hair, something.
165
00:12:34,084 --> 00:12:37,951
[Fassbender] You saw some body parts.
Tell us what you saw.
166
00:12:39,484 --> 00:12:42,717
- [Wiegert] It's OK to tell us.
- [Fassbender] It's OK.
167
00:12:42,784 --> 00:12:44,084
Tell us what you saw.
168
00:12:47,250 --> 00:12:48,517
[Brendan] Toes.
169
00:12:49,817 --> 00:12:53,784
After this interview,
we contacted District Attorney Kratz
170
00:12:53,851 --> 00:12:56,784
to inform him of what
we had learned from that interview.
171
00:12:56,851 --> 00:13:02,084
Mr. Kratz requested that we memorialize
this interview in a better fashion,
172
00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:06,984
so at that point we made arrangements
to go to Two Rivers Police Department
173
00:13:07,051 --> 00:13:09,784
where there would be
a videotape interview done.
174
00:13:10,951 --> 00:13:15,550
[Fallon] Where was the defendant's mother,
Barb Janda, at that time?
175
00:13:15,617 --> 00:13:17,817
We had spoke to Barb prior
to doing the interview
176
00:13:17,884 --> 00:13:21,283
and indicated she had every right to be
in the interview if she wished to be.
177
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:23,317
At that time she declined.
178
00:13:23,384 --> 00:13:27,283
She waited in a outer waiting area
of the police department
179
00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:29,118
while we conducted the interview.
180
00:13:29,183 --> 00:13:31,018
[Fallon] All right. Now at that...
181
00:13:31,084 --> 00:13:34,550
After those, um,
two interviews that particular day,
182
00:13:34,617 --> 00:13:38,250
did you think that he was a suspect
at that particular point?
183
00:13:38,317 --> 00:13:42,951
Well, at that time, that's the first time
Brendan places himself at the crime scene,
184
00:13:43,018 --> 00:13:45,084
places himself at the fire.
185
00:13:45,150 --> 00:13:47,851
In my thinking at that point,
he's still a witness,
186
00:13:47,917 --> 00:13:49,951
a witness to something horrific.
187
00:13:50,018 --> 00:13:53,084
He tells us that he sees
body parts in a fire. I mean...
188
00:13:53,917 --> 00:13:57,751
So, we're thinking he's a witness
to something at that point, yeah.
189
00:13:58,250 --> 00:14:01,717
Earlier we heard from
Special Agent Fassbender
190
00:14:01,784 --> 00:14:04,584
that the defendant and his mother
191
00:14:04,651 --> 00:14:09,018
were put up at the
Fox Hills Hotel in Mishicot.
192
00:14:09,084 --> 00:14:11,283
How did that come to pass?
193
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:14,417
First and foremost,
on any law enforcement's mind is safety.
194
00:14:14,484 --> 00:14:19,018
I mean, our job is to protect people.
That's bottom line.
195
00:14:19,084 --> 00:14:20,917
Because of the information he told us,
196
00:14:20,984 --> 00:14:24,550
if there was somebody else that
lived out there on the Avery property
197
00:14:24,617 --> 00:14:27,550
that would've found out
and may have also been involved,
198
00:14:27,617 --> 00:14:29,217
we were worried for his safety,
199
00:14:29,283 --> 00:14:32,250
that they would somehow get to him
and maybe harm him.
200
00:14:32,317 --> 00:14:34,651
So we thought, to be on the safe side,
201
00:14:34,717 --> 00:14:37,617
we needed to put him up somewhere
off of that property.
202
00:14:37,684 --> 00:14:41,118
Did you have any feeling
as to whether or not the defendant
203
00:14:41,183 --> 00:14:44,550
had told you everything
that he knew at that time?
204
00:14:44,617 --> 00:14:46,484
[Wiegert] My feeling was no, he didn't.
205
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:48,550
He knew more 'cause every time
we would talk to him
206
00:14:48,617 --> 00:14:50,751
he'd give you a little bit more,
give you a little bit more.
207
00:14:50,817 --> 00:14:55,417
So then did you make arrangements
to re-interview the defendant?
208
00:14:55,484 --> 00:14:58,817
We did. Yes.
That would take us to March 1st.
209
00:14:59,717 --> 00:15:03,584
Um, at that point we contacted
Brendan's mother again,
210
00:15:03,651 --> 00:15:05,417
told her that we would
like to take Brendan
211
00:15:05,484 --> 00:15:08,217
to the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department
212
00:15:08,283 --> 00:15:10,617
so we could do
a videotaped interview of Brendan
213
00:15:10,684 --> 00:15:14,784
to see what else he maybe had known,
see what else maybe he saw.
214
00:15:14,851 --> 00:15:17,250
It was obvious that he knew more
than he was telling us.
215
00:15:17,317 --> 00:15:20,584
[Wiegert on recording] I just wanted
to just go over this real quick again.
216
00:15:20,651 --> 00:15:23,018
You remember these rights?
Your Miranda rights that I read you?
217
00:15:23,084 --> 00:15:26,084
- Yeah.
- You still want to talk to us?
218
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:29,118
- Yeah.
- OK. Just wanted to make sure of that.
219
00:15:30,851 --> 00:15:33,084
[Fassbender] Brendan, I want you to relax.
220
00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:47,018
- Brendan? There you go.
- Thank you.
221
00:15:47,084 --> 00:15:48,183
You're welcome.
222
00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:58,584
Your Honor, I believe we have agreed
that the remainder of the discussion
223
00:15:58,651 --> 00:16:04,484
does not contain pertinent...
questioning of the defendant,
224
00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:09,283
and I think we agreed to stop the tape
at this particular point.
225
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:11,283
[Judge Fox] To the Defense, is that true?
226
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:12,384
[Fremgen] It is, Your Honor.
227
00:16:12,450 --> 00:16:13,484
[Judge Fox] All right.
228
00:16:38,084 --> 00:16:43,183
The videotapes today...
it just shows me that...
229
00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:46,817
- He wasn't...
- ...the police were trying to get him
230
00:16:46,884 --> 00:16:49,183
- to make up a story.
- Mm-hm.
231
00:16:49,250 --> 00:16:52,250
- 'Cause it's personal.
- You know, it just comes across that way.
232
00:16:52,317 --> 00:16:56,651
Well, he told me umpteen times
that he didn't do nothing to her.
233
00:16:56,717 --> 00:16:59,484
- That he's still a virgin. Yeah, I know.
- And there's no DNA evidence.
234
00:16:59,550 --> 00:17:02,684
There's no DNA evidence
to prove that he was in the trailer,
235
00:17:02,751 --> 00:17:07,018
there's no evidence of hers in that,
in Steven's trailer.
236
00:17:07,084 --> 00:17:09,917
- Right.
- There's no DNA evidence.
237
00:17:09,984 --> 00:17:13,217
And that was my biggest thing. If she...
238
00:17:13,283 --> 00:17:16,851
If it happened
as Brendan supposedly said it did,
239
00:17:16,917 --> 00:17:19,283
there would've been DNA evidence in there.
Blood, something.
240
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:22,317
That's just like Mark Wiegert
on the stand today.
241
00:17:22,384 --> 00:17:27,384
He said that...
that I declined to go in with Brendan.
242
00:17:27,450 --> 00:17:30,951
I wanted to go in with Brendan.
They wouldn't let me.
243
00:17:33,450 --> 00:17:35,617
So he's lying up on the stand too.
244
00:17:38,250 --> 00:17:41,183
[Edelstein] Do you know how many times
245
00:17:41,250 --> 00:17:45,751
either you or Agent Fassbender
on March 1st,
246
00:17:45,817 --> 00:17:48,684
the video one that we all watched today...
247
00:17:50,384 --> 00:17:55,617
suggested to Brendan or told Brendan
that he was a liar?
248
00:17:57,784 --> 00:17:59,851
No. I don't know how many times.
249
00:17:59,917 --> 00:18:06,517
Would it surprise you
that it was in excess of 75 times
250
00:18:06,584 --> 00:18:10,917
during the course of the interview
that either you or Fassbender
251
00:18:10,984 --> 00:18:16,317
said something to him suggesting
or directly stating to him,
252
00:18:16,384 --> 00:18:19,183
that he was a liar?
253
00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:23,150
Several times we told him we did not
believe what he was telling us. Yes.
254
00:18:23,217 --> 00:18:27,450
Do you know how many times after
255
00:18:27,517 --> 00:18:31,250
he was told that he was a liar
256
00:18:31,317 --> 00:18:33,417
that he changed his answer?
257
00:18:35,183 --> 00:18:36,984
No. I don't know how many times.
258
00:18:37,051 --> 00:18:40,784
[Edelstein] Take a look
at that middle paragraph.
259
00:18:40,851 --> 00:18:46,018
"Fassbender is encouraging Brendan
to say things
260
00:18:46,084 --> 00:18:48,550
that might make Brendan
look a little bad...
261
00:18:49,450 --> 00:18:54,018
in order for him to be believed."
262
00:18:54,084 --> 00:18:56,417
He tells him "to tell the whole truth,
don't leave anything out,
263
00:18:56,484 --> 00:18:58,183
don't make anything up."
264
00:18:58,250 --> 00:19:00,384
But it was in fact said to him,
265
00:19:00,450 --> 00:19:02,484
"It might make you look a little bad
266
00:19:02,550 --> 00:19:05,183
or make you look like you were
more involved than you want to be.
267
00:19:05,250 --> 00:19:08,250
It's hard to do, but it's good
from the vantage point to say,
268
00:19:08,317 --> 00:19:11,283
'Hey, there's no doubt
you're telling the truth.'"
269
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:15,217
Yes, that's what was said.
Part of breaking down those barriers.
270
00:19:15,283 --> 00:19:18,118
But doesn't that encourage him
to say something
271
00:19:18,183 --> 00:19:21,283
- irregardless of whether it's true or not?
- No...
272
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:24,484
Because someone in a position of authority
is telling him that,
273
00:19:24,550 --> 00:19:29,384
"If you say something that doesn't
help you, then we might believe you."
274
00:19:29,450 --> 00:19:32,217
No, I wouldn't characterize it that way.
275
00:19:32,283 --> 00:19:35,018
The police are actually taught a technique
276
00:19:35,084 --> 00:19:38,283
from this org...
this outfit out of Chicago, Reid.
277
00:19:38,350 --> 00:19:41,851
And they're taught to elicit confessions,
278
00:19:41,917 --> 00:19:44,717
not get to the truth.
279
00:19:46,450 --> 00:19:49,317
They... The police believe
it's the same thing.
280
00:19:49,384 --> 00:19:51,283
Confession and truth
are the same thing.
281
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:55,584
But it's not.
The truth... is what happened.
282
00:19:55,651 --> 00:19:59,250
A confession isn't necessarily
what happened.
283
00:20:00,051 --> 00:20:05,183
You accused him during the course
of this interview
284
00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:07,651
of shooting Teresa, correct?
285
00:20:07,717 --> 00:20:11,018
[Wiegert] Yep, and which he was able
to resist every time we accused him.
286
00:20:12,283 --> 00:20:14,550
Well, the truth of the matter is...
287
00:20:17,584 --> 00:20:21,217
you don't know if it's right
and you don't know if it's wrong, do you?
288
00:20:22,084 --> 00:20:24,283
- Whether or not he shot Teresa?
- Correct.
289
00:20:24,350 --> 00:20:26,717
I know he was there when she was shot.
290
00:20:26,784 --> 00:20:29,651
- Whether he actually pulled the trigger...
- Well, let me stop you there.
291
00:20:29,717 --> 00:20:32,717
You know he was there
because he told you that, right?
292
00:20:32,784 --> 00:20:34,350
And because of the evidence.
293
00:20:35,484 --> 00:20:36,651
Well...
294
00:20:39,250 --> 00:20:43,617
The cuffs, the bullets, the shells,
the shovels, the seat,
295
00:20:43,684 --> 00:20:47,517
everything that the government's
paraded in here...
296
00:20:47,584 --> 00:20:52,651
none of these items
have fingerprints, DNA
297
00:20:52,717 --> 00:20:57,384
or any other scientific evidence
connecting Brendan Dassey
298
00:20:57,450 --> 00:21:01,584
to the death of Teresa Halbach, yes or no?
299
00:21:02,951 --> 00:21:05,484
That's correct.
They had five days to clean up.
300
00:21:08,051 --> 00:21:11,550
I thought Investigator Wiegert
did a tremendous job.
301
00:21:11,617 --> 00:21:14,484
I mean, we've been
praising the police all along.
302
00:21:14,550 --> 00:21:17,717
Uh... we... We love the police.
303
00:21:17,784 --> 00:21:20,617
The other family obviously doesn't, so...
304
00:21:20,684 --> 00:21:22,484
Um...
305
00:21:22,550 --> 00:21:25,651
But, yeah, we owe a lot to them
for their... the work that they've done
306
00:21:25,717 --> 00:21:28,183
for my family and for Teresa.
307
00:21:40,283 --> 00:21:43,417
[Barb] He never got into trouble before.
At all.
308
00:21:44,717 --> 00:21:47,150
He was always a good kid.
309
00:21:47,217 --> 00:21:49,717
Even his school wants him
to come back to school.
310
00:21:53,084 --> 00:21:57,217
And my son always tells me,
"Blame it on Mark. Blame it on Mark."
311
00:21:58,317 --> 00:21:59,951
And that's who I'm blaming.
312
00:22:04,484 --> 00:22:08,684
[Fallon] Did there come a time
where you re-interviewed Kayla Avery?
313
00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:13,584
We did. Um, shortly after Brendan
was arrested, actually.
314
00:22:17,250 --> 00:22:20,817
I believe it was March 7th of 2006.
315
00:22:20,884 --> 00:22:24,717
Kayla came out and told us
quite a few things at that point.
316
00:22:24,784 --> 00:22:29,118
Basically she indicated to us
that, um, Brendan had told Kayla
317
00:22:29,183 --> 00:22:32,917
that he had went and got the mail
and went over to...
318
00:22:34,917 --> 00:22:37,484
Steven Avery's residence.
319
00:22:37,550 --> 00:22:40,684
And went into the residence
320
00:22:40,751 --> 00:22:45,884
and observed Teresa Halbach pinned up
in Steve Avery's bedroom.
321
00:22:47,684 --> 00:22:51,617
Kayla went on to tell us how Brendan
described seeing body parts
322
00:22:51,684 --> 00:22:54,384
later that day, or that evening...
323
00:22:55,584 --> 00:22:58,617
in the fire behind
Steve Avery's residence.
324
00:22:59,651 --> 00:23:01,417
[Fallon] Good morning.
325
00:23:02,751 --> 00:23:05,150
- How old are you, Kayla?
- Fifteen.
326
00:23:05,217 --> 00:23:07,884
And how are you related to Brendan?
327
00:23:07,951 --> 00:23:10,084
We're first cousins.
328
00:23:10,150 --> 00:23:15,951
My dad is Barbara's brother,
and Brendan's Barbara's son.
329
00:23:16,018 --> 00:23:17,851
OK, very good.
330
00:23:17,917 --> 00:23:23,450
I want to direct your attention
to a time in December of 2005.
331
00:23:25,951 --> 00:23:30,784
Did you have a conversation with Brendan
about Teresa Halbach?
332
00:23:32,118 --> 00:23:33,584
- Kinda, yeah.
- All right.
333
00:23:33,651 --> 00:23:38,118
Would you tell us about
that conversation with Brendan?
334
00:23:38,183 --> 00:23:39,517
Well, um...
335
00:23:40,484 --> 00:23:42,717
Well, not in December, in November.
336
00:23:42,784 --> 00:23:44,851
OK. Tell us about it.
337
00:23:44,917 --> 00:23:49,183
In November, um,
we were having a birthday party.
338
00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:54,717
He was sitting in our hallway
and, um, he was just sitting there.
339
00:23:54,784 --> 00:24:00,084
One of my friends looked out the door and
seen him crying and then she came to me
340
00:24:00,150 --> 00:24:05,183
and then I went out there by him
and I asked him what was wrong,
341
00:24:05,250 --> 00:24:09,450
- and all he did is shrugged his shoulders.
- OK. And then what did you ask?
342
00:24:09,517 --> 00:24:12,450
And then I asked him
if it was about the Steven thing.
343
00:24:12,517 --> 00:24:14,851
And then he just shrugged his shoulders
and I was like...
344
00:24:14,917 --> 00:24:16,651
And then I was like,
"You know you can talk to me,"
345
00:24:16,717 --> 00:24:19,384
and then I just went back inside my room.
346
00:24:19,450 --> 00:24:25,717
Tell us about the conversation you had
with Brendan regarding Steven.
347
00:24:25,784 --> 00:24:29,250
We didn't have a conversation about it.
348
00:24:29,317 --> 00:24:34,484
Didn't you tell your counselors at school
about a conversation you had with Brendan?
349
00:24:35,283 --> 00:24:37,150
- Yeah.
- All right.
350
00:24:37,217 --> 00:24:40,584
And you told Officers Wiegert
and Fassbender
351
00:24:40,651 --> 00:24:42,984
about that conversation as well, right?
352
00:24:43,051 --> 00:24:44,851
These two guys right here?
353
00:24:44,917 --> 00:24:46,183
You recognize those two guys?
354
00:24:47,484 --> 00:24:48,350
- Yeah?
- Yes.
355
00:24:48,417 --> 00:24:49,917
That's... OK.
356
00:24:51,283 --> 00:24:53,751
You told them about a conversation
you had with Brendan
357
00:24:53,817 --> 00:24:57,617
about that bonfire
and what was in the bonfire.
358
00:24:57,684 --> 00:24:59,118
Tell us about that.
359
00:25:00,084 --> 00:25:02,217
I really don't remember.
360
00:25:02,283 --> 00:25:06,884
All right. Now Kayla,
did you give the officers a statement?
361
00:25:08,183 --> 00:25:09,951
- Uh, yeah.
- All right.
362
00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:23,751
Kayla, I'm showing you what
has been marked for identification
363
00:25:23,817 --> 00:25:27,784
as this exhibit 163.
Would you hold that for me, please?
364
00:25:27,851 --> 00:25:29,018
All right.
365
00:25:29,084 --> 00:25:31,951
I'm gonna take my seat here
and ask you questions.
366
00:25:35,751 --> 00:25:41,150
And is that the statement that you gave
to Officers Fassbender and Wiegert?
367
00:25:41,217 --> 00:25:42,517
- Yes.
- All right.
368
00:25:53,951 --> 00:25:57,617
Does reviewing that statement
help you remember?
369
00:25:57,684 --> 00:25:59,450
- Yes.
- All right.
370
00:25:59,517 --> 00:26:03,617
What did Brendan tell you about the fire?
371
00:26:08,717 --> 00:26:12,183
You'll have to pull the microphone
a little closer so we can hear you.
372
00:26:17,118 --> 00:26:20,717
He didn't tell me anything. I...
373
00:26:22,350 --> 00:26:26,051
I kind of made up the statement
and I'm sorry.
374
00:26:26,118 --> 00:26:28,283
All right. What did you make up?
375
00:26:28,350 --> 00:26:31,450
Tell us what you're saying you made up.
376
00:26:31,517 --> 00:26:33,484
That he'd seen body parts in there.
377
00:26:33,550 --> 00:26:35,450
I didn't... He didn't see... I didn't...
378
00:26:35,517 --> 00:26:37,183
He didn't tell me anything like that
379
00:26:37,250 --> 00:26:41,484
or he didn't see Teresa's body
or anything like that.
380
00:26:43,018 --> 00:26:47,851
[Fallon] And you also told the officers
in a separate conversation that day
381
00:26:47,917 --> 00:26:51,350
that Brendan had seen Teresa alive
in Steven's trailer
382
00:26:51,417 --> 00:26:53,651
and that she was pinned up in a chair.
383
00:26:54,851 --> 00:26:56,751
- Yes, but that's not true.
- All right.
384
00:26:56,817 --> 00:27:01,417
So you're telling us you made something up
to get Brendan into trouble?
385
00:27:02,150 --> 00:27:05,984
Not really. I was just really confused
about everything.
386
00:27:14,417 --> 00:27:17,084
No further questions for this witness.
387
00:27:18,984 --> 00:27:23,651
You'd heard some of the news that...
about what happened to Teresa Halbach?
388
00:27:23,717 --> 00:27:25,817
- Yes.
- Was it...
389
00:27:25,884 --> 00:27:27,717
It was kind of hard
to miss some of that, right?
390
00:27:27,784 --> 00:27:28,917
Yes.
391
00:27:29,817 --> 00:27:32,183
Grim details were made public yesterday.
392
00:27:32,250 --> 00:27:36,550
Bones and teeth of an adult female
were found on the Avery property.
393
00:27:36,617 --> 00:27:41,118
[male reporter] Investigators found pieces
of bone and teeth on the Avery property.
394
00:27:41,183 --> 00:27:43,617
[female reporter] According
to Brendan Dassey's statements to police,
395
00:27:43,684 --> 00:27:44,817
he came home from school
396
00:27:44,884 --> 00:27:47,384
and went to Steven Avery's trailer
to give him his mail.
397
00:27:47,450 --> 00:27:49,651
[male reporter] Dassey told prosecutors
that his uncle Steven
398
00:27:49,717 --> 00:27:53,484
had Teresa Halbach
shackled to his bed naked.
399
00:27:53,550 --> 00:27:55,250
[female reporter]
The complaint says they continue
400
00:27:55,317 --> 00:27:57,617
to torture and manually strangle her.
401
00:27:57,684 --> 00:28:00,951
They then put her body in a fire pit,
investigators say,
402
00:28:01,018 --> 00:28:02,884
throwing bed sheets
on top of the fire
403
00:28:02,951 --> 00:28:06,417
and scattering some of the remains
in a nearby gravel pit.
404
00:28:07,384 --> 00:28:11,084
Did you know about that burn pit
behind Steven's garage?
405
00:28:11,150 --> 00:28:14,084
- Yes, I heard it on the news.
- Read it in the news?
406
00:28:14,150 --> 00:28:16,651
- Yes.
- OK. Did you read that they found
407
00:28:16,717 --> 00:28:20,417
- body parts in the burn pit too?
- Yes.
408
00:28:20,484 --> 00:28:21,584
When they spoke to you,
409
00:28:21,651 --> 00:28:26,751
did they ask you specifically
about the burn pit and the body parts?
410
00:28:26,817 --> 00:28:28,584
- Yes.
- OK.
411
00:28:28,651 --> 00:28:32,317
So when you say you...
that you told them you saw body parts,
412
00:28:32,384 --> 00:28:35,717
it was in response to a question
they asked you about that?
413
00:28:35,784 --> 00:28:36,951
Yes.
414
00:28:37,018 --> 00:28:41,717
Do you think there's some sort of talk
in the family or collusion going on
415
00:28:41,784 --> 00:28:45,051
where these people are kind of
rosying up their stories to each other?
416
00:28:45,118 --> 00:28:49,118
I mean, I think, yeah, she's trying to
protect a family member just like, uh...
417
00:28:50,684 --> 00:28:53,550
I think the rest of the family,
or most families would, so...
418
00:28:53,617 --> 00:28:54,751
[female reporter] But the seriousness of...
419
00:28:54,817 --> 00:28:57,384
I mean, if she is trying
to protect Brendan
420
00:28:57,450 --> 00:29:00,118
by not telling the whole truth
on the witness stand,
421
00:29:00,183 --> 00:29:03,183
I mean, that's...
that's pretty serious business.
422
00:29:03,250 --> 00:29:06,651
I agree that is very serious. Um...
423
00:29:09,018 --> 00:29:12,317
She should be telling what she knows,
but she didn't. Um...
424
00:29:12,384 --> 00:29:16,651
She chose to...
um, basically lie on the stand.
425
00:29:16,717 --> 00:29:21,384
So that was her choice and I think that
came across to the jury,
426
00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:24,051
and there's really not much
we can do about it anymore.
427
00:29:36,884 --> 00:29:39,550
[Fremgen] We believe
Brendan's gonna testify.
428
00:29:41,550 --> 00:29:46,051
If at the last second, he says,
"I'm not testifying," that's his choice.
429
00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:51,550
But how Brendan stands up
to cross-examination is anyone's guess.
430
00:29:52,584 --> 00:29:55,851
He might just roll up into a shell.
431
00:29:55,917 --> 00:29:59,118
I mean, I can see where he might just
not even answer any questions,
432
00:29:59,183 --> 00:30:01,484
so that could be interesting.
433
00:30:01,550 --> 00:30:03,183
I mean, I think...
434
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:05,617
I don't think Brendan's the key to this,
435
00:30:05,684 --> 00:30:09,283
but the person you see
in the courtroom every day,
436
00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:13,250
sitting there staring at his fingers?
Um...
437
00:30:13,317 --> 00:30:15,817
That's Brendan. There's...
That's not an act.
438
00:30:15,884 --> 00:30:17,984
That really is Brendan, so...
439
00:30:18,051 --> 00:30:20,118
Like I say,
he's not a sophisticated person.
440
00:30:20,183 --> 00:30:22,651
He's not gonna put on a show for anyone.
441
00:30:32,851 --> 00:30:33,984
[bailiff] Raise your right hand.
442
00:30:34,051 --> 00:30:37,118
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony
you give now before the court
443
00:30:37,183 --> 00:30:40,250
will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth so help you God?
444
00:30:40,317 --> 00:30:42,317
- I do.
- Please be seated.
445
00:30:44,283 --> 00:30:46,784
Please state your name
and spell your last name for the record.
446
00:30:46,851 --> 00:30:50,550
Brendan Dassey. D-a-s-s-e-y.
447
00:30:51,851 --> 00:30:53,384
- [Fremgen] Morning, Brendan.
- Morning.
448
00:30:53,450 --> 00:30:56,118
- How old are you, Brendan?
- Seventeen.
449
00:30:57,851 --> 00:31:01,417
Where were you living
on October 31, 2005?
450
00:31:01,484 --> 00:31:02,917
With my mom.
451
00:31:02,984 --> 00:31:06,217
Who all lived in that general area?
452
00:31:07,051 --> 00:31:09,183
Me and my family,
453
00:31:09,250 --> 00:31:14,217
- Steven, Chuckie, my grandma and grandpa.
- OK.
454
00:31:14,283 --> 00:31:16,384
Now you said that Steven,
that's your uncle, right?
455
00:31:16,450 --> 00:31:18,884
- Yes.
- And he lived where exactly
456
00:31:18,951 --> 00:31:21,884
- in relation to your house?
- Next door.
457
00:31:21,951 --> 00:31:23,951
About how far from your house?
458
00:31:24,018 --> 00:31:25,283
A few hundred...
459
00:31:26,283 --> 00:31:29,450
A hundred or two hundred
or three hundred yards away.
460
00:31:29,517 --> 00:31:31,817
OK. Yards or feet?
461
00:31:31,884 --> 00:31:33,617
Do you know the difference
between the two?
462
00:31:34,350 --> 00:31:36,118
- Not really.
- OK.
463
00:31:37,018 --> 00:31:40,084
Was it farther than a football field
away from you?
464
00:31:40,150 --> 00:31:41,118
- No.
- OK.
465
00:31:41,183 --> 00:31:42,984
So less than a football field
away from you.
466
00:31:43,051 --> 00:31:44,250
Yeah.
467
00:31:44,317 --> 00:31:47,784
On October 31, 2005,
was it a normal day for you?
468
00:31:47,851 --> 00:31:49,183
[Brendan] Yes.
469
00:31:49,250 --> 00:31:53,051
Now did you go directly home
from getting off the bus that day?
470
00:31:53,118 --> 00:31:54,051
Yes.
471
00:31:55,784 --> 00:31:57,517
What'd you do
when you got home that day?
472
00:31:59,550 --> 00:32:01,550
I played video games.
473
00:32:01,617 --> 00:32:05,550
What did you do after you were done
playing video games?
474
00:32:06,384 --> 00:32:10,018
I ate something. Food.
475
00:32:10,084 --> 00:32:12,084
OK. What was Blaine doing?
476
00:32:12,951 --> 00:32:16,617
He was in the kitchen
holding his duffel bag.
477
00:32:16,684 --> 00:32:18,651
- Was he going somewhere?
- Yeah.
478
00:32:18,717 --> 00:32:21,283
- Where was he going?
- Trick-or-treating.
479
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:23,917
OK. What did you do
after you were done eating?
480
00:32:26,118 --> 00:32:31,984
I went into my mom's room
and talked to her about... that she was...
481
00:32:32,051 --> 00:32:33,384
I asked her...
482
00:32:35,584 --> 00:32:40,118
She told me that she was going with Scott
to the hospital to see his mom.
483
00:32:41,684 --> 00:32:43,651
What did you do after your mom left?
484
00:32:43,717 --> 00:32:44,884
[Brendan] Watched TV.
485
00:32:46,084 --> 00:32:48,150
Do you know how long you watched TV?
486
00:32:50,851 --> 00:32:54,084
Until around 6:00
when I got a phone call.
487
00:32:54,150 --> 00:32:55,350
Who called?
488
00:32:55,417 --> 00:32:57,051
Blaine's boss.
489
00:32:58,250 --> 00:33:02,584
Do you know for certain it was 6:00
or around 6:00 he called?
490
00:33:02,651 --> 00:33:03,684
Yeah.
491
00:33:03,751 --> 00:33:05,717
And how do you know that for certain?
492
00:33:07,517 --> 00:33:09,784
'Cause he called after my mom left.
493
00:33:09,851 --> 00:33:12,917
- OK, so sometime after 5:30 he called?
- Yes.
494
00:33:12,984 --> 00:33:14,051
OK.
495
00:33:14,851 --> 00:33:16,450
What'd you do then?
496
00:33:16,517 --> 00:33:20,884
I watched TV until I got another
phone call at... around seven.
497
00:33:20,951 --> 00:33:22,817
OK, and who called you around seven?
498
00:33:22,884 --> 00:33:24,350
Steven.
499
00:33:24,417 --> 00:33:26,450
What did Steven call you about?
500
00:33:26,517 --> 00:33:29,350
He asked me if I wanted
to come over to the bonfire.
501
00:33:30,484 --> 00:33:32,984
What did you do
when you got down to the fire?
502
00:33:34,217 --> 00:33:39,717
He... told me that he wanted
to pick up the yard
503
00:33:39,784 --> 00:33:43,217
and we drove around in the golf cart
and picked up stuff.
504
00:33:43,283 --> 00:33:47,150
OK. What kind of stuff did you pick up?
505
00:33:47,217 --> 00:33:51,550
Wood, tires, an old cabinet
and a van seat.
506
00:33:51,617 --> 00:33:54,684
Now is this stuff that's
just lying around your yard?
507
00:33:54,751 --> 00:33:55,651
Yes.
508
00:33:55,717 --> 00:33:57,784
Did you throw them on the fire?
509
00:33:57,851 --> 00:34:00,717
- Some of it.
- What'd you do with the rest?
510
00:34:01,617 --> 00:34:06,350
Piled it or... Pined it...
Piled it right by the fire.
511
00:34:08,751 --> 00:34:11,617
So now you're watching the fire
for a while, right?
512
00:34:11,684 --> 00:34:13,751
- Yes.
- What are you doing?
513
00:34:17,517 --> 00:34:21,617
I only can recall that Steven
was talking to me about a phone call
514
00:34:21,684 --> 00:34:23,751
that he got from Jodi.
515
00:34:26,517 --> 00:34:31,384
When you got home...
was anyone else home?
516
00:34:31,450 --> 00:34:32,917
No.
517
00:34:33,784 --> 00:34:35,717
Did you talk to your mom at all?
518
00:34:36,717 --> 00:34:39,884
- Yeah.
- How'd you talk to her?
519
00:34:39,951 --> 00:34:42,084
She called on the house phone.
520
00:34:43,217 --> 00:34:44,784
What time did you go to bed?
521
00:34:46,250 --> 00:34:49,051
After I got done talking to my mom.
522
00:34:50,784 --> 00:34:55,183
Now, following October 31, 2005...
523
00:34:59,018 --> 00:35:00,884
did you lose any weight?
524
00:35:00,951 --> 00:35:03,283
- Yes.
- How much did you lose?
525
00:35:07,150 --> 00:35:09,317
Five, ten pounds.
526
00:35:09,384 --> 00:35:11,550
Were you doing this on purpose or...?
527
00:35:12,984 --> 00:35:15,217
- No.
- You weren't trying to lose weight?
528
00:35:16,018 --> 00:35:18,450
- Well, I was trying to.
- OK.
529
00:35:18,517 --> 00:35:20,517
Why were you trying to lose weight?
530
00:35:20,584 --> 00:35:22,417
'Cause people were calling me fat
531
00:35:22,484 --> 00:35:26,984
and because I thought that
my first girlfriend broke up me...
532
00:35:27,051 --> 00:35:29,817
with me because of my weight.
533
00:35:30,917 --> 00:35:33,084
- You mean first ever...?
- Yeah.
534
00:35:33,150 --> 00:35:34,350
OK.
535
00:35:35,450 --> 00:35:38,817
- Have you ever seen Teresa Halbach before?
- No.
536
00:35:38,884 --> 00:35:40,651
Now you obviously know that name, correct?
537
00:35:40,717 --> 00:35:42,084
Yes.
538
00:35:42,150 --> 00:35:46,784
When was the first time that you recall
hearing the name or seeing her picture?
539
00:35:46,851 --> 00:35:49,250
When she was reported missing.
540
00:35:49,951 --> 00:35:53,951
And how did you come about
hearing about her being missing?
541
00:35:54,751 --> 00:35:58,517
My mom called,
she told me to turn on the news.
542
00:35:58,584 --> 00:36:01,150
- OK, so you watched TV?
- Yes.
543
00:36:03,217 --> 00:36:05,051
I have nothing else, Judge.
544
00:36:20,051 --> 00:36:24,717
Just to see the chains on him,
it just... Yeah. It just makes me sick.
545
00:36:24,784 --> 00:36:28,084
Because I know what kind of boy he is.
You know.
546
00:36:37,051 --> 00:36:39,384
I'm glad I'm going to see him
because, you know,
547
00:36:39,450 --> 00:36:42,617
I mean, he appreciates me
coming down and, you know.
548
00:36:42,684 --> 00:36:45,183
I know that 'cause
I can see it in his eyes.
549
00:36:50,884 --> 00:36:54,617
He had a dream that, um, when
he goes up on the stand and everything
550
00:36:54,684 --> 00:36:56,550
and he says just as it was ending,
551
00:36:56,617 --> 00:37:01,018
somebody came out with a black robe on
and they flipped the top out
552
00:37:01,084 --> 00:37:03,350
and it was Teresa and she was alive.
553
00:37:03,417 --> 00:37:04,951
And it was all a joke.
554
00:37:09,084 --> 00:37:12,684
[Fallon] Mr. Dassey,
let me, um, play something for you
555
00:37:12,751 --> 00:37:14,951
and I want to ask you
a couple of questions, all right?
556
00:37:15,018 --> 00:37:16,051
OK.
557
00:37:18,018 --> 00:37:20,651
[Barb] Can I ask you a question?
Why would you even go over there?
558
00:37:21,617 --> 00:37:25,484
- [Brendan] I don't know.
- [Barb] Why didn't you just call 911?
559
00:37:25,550 --> 00:37:28,484
Or tell me at 5:00 when I got home?
560
00:37:29,450 --> 00:37:31,283
Were you afraid of him?
561
00:37:31,951 --> 00:37:34,150
[Brendan] Well, yeah. He just kept...
562
00:37:34,217 --> 00:37:36,051
[recorded voice] You have one minute left.
563
00:37:36,118 --> 00:37:38,384
- [Barb] What?
- [Brendan] He's stronger than me.
564
00:37:38,450 --> 00:37:41,250
[Barb] Yeah, well, if you would've
came home and told me.
565
00:37:41,317 --> 00:37:45,384
[Brendan] Yeah, but then I thought
that I would have to go to jail, too.
566
00:37:45,450 --> 00:37:48,118
- [Barb] No, you wouldn't have.
- [Brendan] Yeah, for knowing about it.
567
00:37:49,784 --> 00:37:53,018
[Barb] You wouldn't have gotten
much out of it then, Brendan.
568
00:37:53,084 --> 00:37:54,951
You would've been more or less a hero.
569
00:37:55,018 --> 00:37:57,150
She would have probably still been alive.
570
00:37:57,917 --> 00:37:59,951
- [Brendan] Yeah?
- [Barb] Yes.
571
00:38:00,018 --> 00:38:04,917
[Brendan] Well, look at that one on TV
where that alligator ate this one girl.
572
00:38:04,984 --> 00:38:07,651
- [Barb] Yeah?
- [Brendan] Yeah.
573
00:38:07,717 --> 00:38:11,951
[Barb] I'm just saying, all you would...
That's all you would've had to done
574
00:38:12,018 --> 00:38:14,851
because I would've put you
in the truck and we would've left.
575
00:38:15,484 --> 00:38:20,484
[Fallon] Why didn't you tell your mother
at 5:00 what you had seen earlier?
576
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:22,917
- 'Cause it really didn't happen.
- OK.
577
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:28,350
Was Teresa Halbach alive at 5:00,
Mr. Dassey?
578
00:38:29,217 --> 00:38:32,684
She was never there at...
when I was there.
579
00:38:32,751 --> 00:38:35,283
Never where, sir?
580
00:38:35,350 --> 00:38:37,084
I never seen her there.
581
00:38:37,150 --> 00:38:44,150
Mr. Dassey, you told the officers
that you were there and Teresa was alive.
582
00:38:45,051 --> 00:38:46,283
Yes.
583
00:38:49,118 --> 00:38:50,851
She was alive.
584
00:38:51,951 --> 00:38:53,817
But it really didn't happen.
585
00:38:53,884 --> 00:38:56,183
- You made that all up?
- Yes.
586
00:38:58,884 --> 00:39:02,317
You just happened to know Teresa's words?
587
00:39:03,217 --> 00:39:04,584
No.
588
00:39:07,250 --> 00:39:09,384
How do you know what she said?
589
00:39:13,051 --> 00:39:15,118
- I made it up.
- You made it up?
590
00:39:15,183 --> 00:39:16,250
Yes.
591
00:39:16,984 --> 00:39:21,084
- You made up the part that you raped her?
- Yes.
592
00:39:21,150 --> 00:39:24,018
You made up the part
that she told you not to do it?
593
00:39:24,084 --> 00:39:25,851
- Yes.
- To do the right thing?
594
00:39:25,917 --> 00:39:27,250
Yes.
595
00:39:30,084 --> 00:39:33,717
- And to tell your uncle not to do it?
- Yes.
596
00:39:33,784 --> 00:39:35,817
- You made that up?
- Yes.
597
00:39:38,217 --> 00:39:43,884
Mr. Dassey, didn't you tell your mother
in a phone call on May 13th
598
00:39:43,951 --> 00:39:48,250
that you had gone over
to your uncle Steven's after school
599
00:39:48,317 --> 00:39:51,118
- and before she came home?
- Yes.
600
00:39:51,183 --> 00:39:55,984
And on May 15th, she's asking you
why you didn't tell her.
601
00:39:56,884 --> 00:39:58,951
Why didn't you?
602
00:39:59,018 --> 00:40:00,751
'Cause it didn't happen.
603
00:40:00,817 --> 00:40:03,517
Why did you tell her
you went over there, sir?
604
00:40:03,584 --> 00:40:05,584
I don't know.
605
00:40:05,651 --> 00:40:08,784
- You lied to your mother as well?
- Yes.
606
00:40:08,851 --> 00:40:11,018
- And you lied to the police.
- Yes.
607
00:40:11,084 --> 00:40:14,751
- Are you lying... You're lying today?
- No.
608
00:40:14,817 --> 00:40:21,717
How is it that you were able
to tell the police officers so much detail
609
00:40:21,784 --> 00:40:25,417
about what happened to Teresa
if you weren't there?
610
00:40:26,617 --> 00:40:27,717
I don't know.
611
00:40:30,450 --> 00:40:32,851
What do you mean, sir, you don't know?
612
00:40:34,350 --> 00:40:36,417
I could've got it out of books.
613
00:40:36,484 --> 00:40:39,384
- Out of books?
- Yeah.
614
00:40:39,450 --> 00:40:44,183
What book that you read...
615
00:40:44,250 --> 00:40:48,550
ever... had the story...
616
00:40:50,450 --> 00:40:53,684
of a woman chained to a bed,
617
00:40:53,751 --> 00:40:56,717
raped, stabbed...
618
00:40:58,118 --> 00:41:01,118
and then her body thrown on a fire?
619
00:41:01,183 --> 00:41:03,417
What book was that, sir?
620
00:41:03,484 --> 00:41:05,951
I believe it was called<i> Kiss the Girls.</i>
621
00:41:06,018 --> 00:41:07,984
All right. Who wrote the book?
622
00:41:10,784 --> 00:41:12,283
I don't remember his name.
623
00:41:18,150 --> 00:41:20,984
Mr. Dassey, please look at exhibit 208.
624
00:41:22,917 --> 00:41:24,384
Yeah?
625
00:41:24,450 --> 00:41:27,217
- You drew that, correct?
- Yes.
626
00:41:28,018 --> 00:41:30,917
- That's your depiction...
- Yes.
627
00:41:30,984 --> 00:41:34,584
...of Teresa Halbach chained to the bed.
628
00:41:37,617 --> 00:41:39,084
I don't understand.
629
00:41:39,984 --> 00:41:43,450
Is that your...
Is that your description?
630
00:41:43,517 --> 00:41:45,350
Is that how she looked
631
00:41:45,417 --> 00:41:49,317
when you saw her on the bed
in your uncle Steven's bedroom?
632
00:41:51,484 --> 00:41:53,150
I didn't see it.
633
00:41:55,250 --> 00:41:56,851
You just made that up?
634
00:41:58,951 --> 00:42:01,250
As I said, I got it out of that book.
635
00:42:02,684 --> 00:42:05,717
Exhibit 210.
You drew this as well, sir, correct?
636
00:42:05,784 --> 00:42:06,617
Yes.
637
00:42:06,684 --> 00:42:10,784
That is your description of Teresa
on the fire in the burn pit.
638
00:42:10,851 --> 00:42:12,317
Yes.
639
00:42:12,384 --> 00:42:14,584
- You made that up?
- Yes.
640
00:42:20,350 --> 00:42:24,217
Well, you told the officers
on February 27th you saw body parts.
641
00:42:24,283 --> 00:42:25,517
- Yes.
- All right.
642
00:42:25,584 --> 00:42:29,051
You told your cousin Kayla
you saw body parts in December.
643
00:42:29,118 --> 00:42:31,250
- No.
- No. She just made that up?
644
00:42:31,317 --> 00:42:33,150
- Yes.
- OK.
645
00:42:33,217 --> 00:42:39,717
How is it that you and Kayla
both came up with telling
646
00:42:39,784 --> 00:42:43,350
and seeing body parts in the fire
if you never talked about it?
647
00:42:44,684 --> 00:42:46,684
She could've heard it on the news.
648
00:42:46,751 --> 00:42:49,450
What newscast would that have been, sir?
649
00:42:49,517 --> 00:42:51,183
I don't know.
650
00:42:51,250 --> 00:42:55,417
Your seeing body parts in the fire,
what newscast was that?
651
00:42:57,984 --> 00:43:01,150
I don't know,
but I heard that they found bones.
652
00:43:04,118 --> 00:43:06,684
How do you feel about this today?
Right now?
653
00:43:08,884 --> 00:43:10,817
That I just want to go home.
654
00:43:12,484 --> 00:43:16,051
That's all you feel right now?
You just want to go home?
655
00:43:17,250 --> 00:43:18,917
And scared.
656
00:43:18,984 --> 00:43:20,550
All right.
657
00:43:20,617 --> 00:43:22,851
Do you feel sorry for Teresa?
658
00:43:25,951 --> 00:43:29,784
Well, I know everybody feels sorry
for losing someone.
659
00:43:31,051 --> 00:43:33,217
Well, what do you feel?
660
00:43:35,584 --> 00:43:37,484
I feel sorry for them.
661
00:43:39,584 --> 00:43:41,283
Why? Why?
662
00:43:41,884 --> 00:43:44,584
'Cause I know how it feels
to lose someone that you love.
663
00:43:47,717 --> 00:43:52,018
And you're telling us today
that you had nothing to do with the...
664
00:43:52,084 --> 00:43:54,550
- with the death of Teresa Halbach?
- No.
665
00:43:54,617 --> 00:43:56,317
All right.
666
00:43:57,250 --> 00:44:02,183
Why did you tell the officers
that you did?
667
00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:03,584
I don't know.
668
00:44:04,617 --> 00:44:06,784
- That's all.
- [Judge Fox] Redirect.
669
00:44:07,450 --> 00:44:09,550
What was the part that you made up?
670
00:44:14,517 --> 00:44:16,484
Well, the stuff that didn't really happen
671
00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:18,450
is the stuff that I made up.
672
00:44:18,517 --> 00:44:21,384
And what stuff didn't really happen?
673
00:44:22,817 --> 00:44:26,417
Where I was over there before 5:00.
674
00:44:26,484 --> 00:44:29,817
Where I helped him kill her
and rape her and that.
675
00:44:32,951 --> 00:44:36,084
Why should this jury believe you today?
676
00:44:38,317 --> 00:44:40,283
'Cause I didn't really do it.
677
00:44:43,517 --> 00:44:47,283
When the officers would tell you,
"This is not your fault,"
678
00:44:47,350 --> 00:44:52,317
how did that question or how did that
comment in the question make you feel?
679
00:44:54,784 --> 00:44:56,717
That I wouldn't be...
680
00:44:56,784 --> 00:45:00,051
That I wouldn't be taken away
from my family and put in jail.
681
00:45:01,484 --> 00:45:03,851
- No matter what you said?
- Yeah.
682
00:45:06,183 --> 00:45:07,884
I have nothing else, Judge.
683
00:45:12,084 --> 00:45:15,684
[sighs] I was just wondering
if he was gonna tell the truth or not.
684
00:45:15,751 --> 00:45:17,350
I didn't expect him to.
685
00:45:17,417 --> 00:45:22,350
I was hoping he would, uh...
slip up a little bit. Um...
686
00:45:25,917 --> 00:45:28,051
I don't know. It was just kind of a...
687
00:45:29,018 --> 00:45:31,817
weird feeling seeing him up there.
688
00:45:31,884 --> 00:45:35,350
You know, when a question
he didn't have an answer to,
689
00:45:35,417 --> 00:45:38,784
he would say "I don't know." He said
nothing about being suggested answers.
690
00:45:38,851 --> 00:45:41,250
He just said he didn't know
why he answered things the way he did,
691
00:45:41,317 --> 00:45:45,717
so it's kind of foolish to be here
when we have a taped confession.
692
00:46:04,517 --> 00:46:05,684
Hi.
693
00:46:21,817 --> 00:46:26,250
You're gonna hear an argument about,
"Well, this is just good proper technique.
694
00:46:27,884 --> 00:46:33,084
And that might be true if you're dealing
with someone of average, normal,
695
00:46:33,150 --> 00:46:36,984
typical intelligence, demeanor and memory.
696
00:46:38,450 --> 00:46:41,517
But this is not the typical young man.
697
00:46:44,450 --> 00:46:50,084
He might have been on this earth
for 16 years at the time...
698
00:46:50,951 --> 00:46:54,051
but he didn't act like it
and he didn't think like it.
699
00:46:54,784 --> 00:46:57,884
And isn't it incumbent upon the government
700
00:46:57,951 --> 00:47:01,817
when they bring these type of allegations
701
00:47:01,884 --> 00:47:05,183
to be able to satisfy you
beyond a reasonable doubt
702
00:47:05,250 --> 00:47:11,817
that the evidence that they're asking you
to rely upon is in fact credible?
703
00:47:13,550 --> 00:47:16,951
Don't convict him
because this was a horrible thing.
704
00:47:18,018 --> 00:47:24,250
Don't convict him...
because he couldn't pick his parents.
705
00:47:25,951 --> 00:47:31,684
Don't convict him
because he simply doesn't know...
706
00:47:33,651 --> 00:47:35,517
and he's honest about it.
707
00:47:37,550 --> 00:47:42,283
We are here and we're here for one reason.
There's no issue, there's no doubt.
708
00:47:42,350 --> 00:47:45,951
We are here because the defendant
has a constitutional right
709
00:47:46,018 --> 00:47:48,084
to have us prove him guilty.
710
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:50,450
That's why we're here,
that's what we've done.
711
00:47:51,317 --> 00:47:55,217
Now, if you were 16 years old,
712
00:47:55,283 --> 00:47:57,784
if we were in a situation like this...
713
00:47:58,817 --> 00:48:02,651
what would be the most disturbing images
for the experience
714
00:48:02,717 --> 00:48:05,484
if you really had experienced it?
715
00:48:06,884 --> 00:48:13,118
It would be those images of a woman
pinned up, of body parts in a fire...
716
00:48:14,051 --> 00:48:17,350
of blood coming out of a concrete floor.
717
00:48:17,417 --> 00:48:21,118
Those are the things
that would stick with you in your memory.
718
00:48:21,183 --> 00:48:26,283
And I tell you that because you know what?
That's why he confessed.
719
00:48:26,350 --> 00:48:29,018
'Cause he couldn't live with it.
720
00:48:29,084 --> 00:48:33,617
And it started to eke out
in his discussion,
721
00:48:33,684 --> 00:48:37,484
little by little,
to his cousin first, his peer,
722
00:48:37,550 --> 00:48:40,317
followed by all that trauma that winter.
723
00:48:40,384 --> 00:48:43,118
The loss of weight, the tearful sessions,
724
00:48:43,183 --> 00:48:46,951
sitting at a birthday party
and he's in tears because he's by himself.
725
00:48:47,018 --> 00:48:49,517
Why? It's not
because he lost a girlfriend,
726
00:48:49,584 --> 00:48:54,317
it's because he couldn't live with it.
That's why he confessed.
727
00:48:55,617 --> 00:48:58,118
People who are innocent don't confess.
728
00:48:58,183 --> 00:49:02,150
The defendant confessed
because he was guilty, because he did it.
729
00:49:03,084 --> 00:49:07,018
Just as Teresa's lifeless body
was consumed by that fire,
730
00:49:07,084 --> 00:49:09,317
the defendant's presumption of innocence
731
00:49:09,384 --> 00:49:12,917
has been consumed by the fires
of his own sexual desire.
732
00:49:12,984 --> 00:49:15,150
He wanted to know what it was like.
733
00:49:15,884 --> 00:49:20,084
There's only one verdict here
and that's a verdict of guilty.
734
00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:22,084
And we ask you to bring that verdict.
735
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:24,751
We ask you to bring justice for Teresa.
736
00:49:26,217 --> 00:49:27,217
Thank you.
737
00:49:29,250 --> 00:49:33,484
[Judge Fox] Members of the jury,
you will not be swayed by sympathy,
738
00:49:33,550 --> 00:49:35,317
prejudice or passion.
739
00:49:35,384 --> 00:49:39,084
You will be very careful and deliberate
in weighing the evidence.
740
00:49:39,150 --> 00:49:42,651
I charge you to keep your duties
steadfastly in mind
741
00:49:42,717 --> 00:49:47,183
and as upright citizens,
to render a just and true verdict.
742
00:49:47,250 --> 00:49:49,751
The verdict must be reached unanimously.
743
00:49:53,384 --> 00:49:56,317
It's really all about whether the jury
believes that taped confession
744
00:49:56,384 --> 00:49:58,951
or whether they believe
what Brendan Dassey said himself
745
00:49:59,018 --> 00:50:02,150
when he testified on Monday
that he made up that whole confession.
746
00:50:02,217 --> 00:50:03,951
- Who do you believe?
- [male reporter] That's right, Shelby.
747
00:50:04,018 --> 00:50:06,717
After nine days of testimony,
evidence and arguments,
748
00:50:06,784 --> 00:50:09,051
the jury now has the case in their hands.
749
00:50:09,118 --> 00:50:11,317
They've only been deliberating
for about 30 minutes.
750
00:50:11,384 --> 00:50:13,784
We of course have no idea
how long it's gonna take for them
751
00:50:13,851 --> 00:50:14,984
to come back with a verdict.
752
00:50:15,051 --> 00:50:18,350
The judge simply gave them the case
and did not give them any direction
753
00:50:18,417 --> 00:50:20,717
as to how long
they should deliberate tonight.
754
00:50:20,784 --> 00:50:23,384
So all indications are
is that we'll sit here and wait
755
00:50:23,450 --> 00:50:25,751
until we hear from them
as to whether A:
756
00:50:25,817 --> 00:50:28,118
they have a verdict or B:
they just want to call it a night,
757
00:50:28,183 --> 00:50:29,717
go home and start tomorrow morning.
758
00:51:19,717 --> 00:51:20,917
[man] What's that?
759
00:51:22,717 --> 00:51:24,450
- [woman] The verdict...
- [man] Verdict?
760
00:51:24,517 --> 00:51:25,584
[man 2] Here we go!
761
00:52:15,884 --> 00:52:18,450
[male reporter] Hey, Brendan.
How are you feeling? Are you nervous?
762
00:52:21,118 --> 00:52:22,217
[female reporter] Brendan.
763
00:52:32,884 --> 00:52:36,051
[indistinct chatter]
764
00:53:05,550 --> 00:53:10,084
[Judge Fox] I want to remind all those
present that this is a court of law.
765
00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:13,384
The court recognizes
the emotional nature of this case,
766
00:53:13,450 --> 00:53:16,584
its importance to all parties involved.
767
00:53:16,651 --> 00:53:20,984
However, vocal outbursts or displays
of emotion will not be tolerated.
768
00:53:21,051 --> 00:53:24,250
Any violation will result
in removal from the courtroom.
769
00:53:28,917 --> 00:53:33,450
As to count one: "We the jury
find the defendant, Brendan R. Dassey,
770
00:53:33,517 --> 00:53:37,517
guilty of first degree intentional
homicide as party to a crime."
771
00:53:39,084 --> 00:53:43,417
As to count two: "We the jury
find the defendant, Brendan R. Dassey,
772
00:53:43,484 --> 00:53:46,984
guilty of mutilating a corpse
as party to a crime."
773
00:53:47,051 --> 00:53:51,651
As to count three: "We the jury
find the defendant, Brendan R. Dassey,
774
00:53:51,717 --> 00:53:54,484
guilty of second degree sexual assault
775
00:53:54,550 --> 00:53:58,684
as party to a crime
on October 31st, 2005."
776
00:53:59,684 --> 00:54:01,951
- No.
- Why not?
777
00:54:02,018 --> 00:54:04,484
Because they sent my kid away for life.
778
00:54:04,550 --> 00:54:07,984
- Was it all Steve's fault?
- [indistinct chatter]
779
00:54:11,118 --> 00:54:12,550
- Did you get that?
- [man] Yeah.
780
00:54:34,217 --> 00:54:35,550
[Barb screaming] We lost!
781
00:54:38,784 --> 00:54:39,951
We lost!
782
00:54:44,751 --> 00:54:46,084
We lost!
783
00:54:54,018 --> 00:54:57,651
[car starts, horn honks]
784
00:54:57,717 --> 00:55:00,484
- [Barb screaming indistinctly]
- [Peter] Stop!
785
00:55:00,550 --> 00:55:05,150
What the fuck? Would youse people
get the fuck outta here?
786
00:55:05,217 --> 00:55:08,617
Goddamn it!
Give the fucking lady some peace!
787
00:55:10,350 --> 00:55:12,951
All youse guys are ignorant motherfuckers.
788
00:55:13,018 --> 00:55:14,784
Leave her be!
789
00:55:14,851 --> 00:55:17,884
This lady...
Get the fuck out of here already!
790
00:55:19,951 --> 00:55:23,350
You give the Halbachs respect,
but you won't give her respect?
791
00:55:23,417 --> 00:55:25,150
What the fuck's wrong with youse?
792
00:55:33,217 --> 00:55:35,684
[Barb] You want something for me to say?
793
00:55:35,751 --> 00:55:37,051
You want me to say something?
794
00:55:37,118 --> 00:55:41,150
I think the Halbachs
set this shit all up! I really do!
795
00:56:47,517 --> 00:56:50,517
You know... Um...
796
00:56:52,084 --> 00:56:57,517
I can't imagine Brendan Dassey
did the things he was convicted of doing.
797
00:56:58,150 --> 00:57:00,084
I just can't imagine he did them.
798
00:57:00,751 --> 00:57:03,018
And I don't believe he did them.
799
00:57:06,751 --> 00:57:12,283
Here's a 17-year-old boy who's...
who's lost his life.
800
00:57:13,250 --> 00:57:15,018
In a real sense.
801
00:57:15,084 --> 00:57:17,884
He lost everything
that makes life worth living
802
00:57:17,951 --> 00:57:23,183
and that life might have held for him.
803
00:57:23,250 --> 00:57:25,084
Um...
804
00:57:25,150 --> 00:57:29,784
Again, the forces that caused that...
805
00:57:30,484 --> 00:57:35,484
I understand and I don't think
are driven by malice...
806
00:57:35,550 --> 00:57:39,217
Um... I think are just...
807
00:57:39,283 --> 00:57:42,951
are just expressions
of ordinary human failing.
808
00:57:43,018 --> 00:57:44,784
But the consequences...
809
00:57:45,817 --> 00:57:50,217
are what are so sad and awful.
810
00:57:55,817 --> 00:57:58,484
I love youse guys
and I know you're innocent.
811
00:58:05,417 --> 00:58:07,084
[sniffles]
812
00:58:27,717 --> 00:58:30,917
[Teresa on video] I love hugs.
813
00:58:30,984 --> 00:58:33,717
I love making people laugh.
814
00:58:35,584 --> 00:58:38,651
I love laughing.
815
00:58:41,450 --> 00:58:43,283
I love...
816
00:58:45,217 --> 00:58:50,517
my sisters, my mom,
my whole family, of course.
817
00:58:51,584 --> 00:58:53,851
I don't hate anyone.
818
00:58:55,350 --> 00:58:57,651
I love a lot of people.
819
00:58:59,283 --> 00:59:01,317
I feel loved.
820
00:59:05,350 --> 00:59:07,751
Mike Halbach, Teresa's younger brother.
821
00:59:08,651 --> 00:59:11,250
Honorable Judge Willis,
822
00:59:11,317 --> 00:59:15,717
my family and I would never choose
to be involved in a situation like this.
823
00:59:15,784 --> 00:59:19,317
We never chose to feel heartbreak,
to feel loss.
824
00:59:20,917 --> 00:59:24,150
But Steven Avery chose my sister Teresa.
825
00:59:25,384 --> 00:59:27,350
He thought only of himself.
826
00:59:28,084 --> 00:59:30,450
He chose to end her life.
827
00:59:30,517 --> 00:59:35,617
He chose to retain his sins inside himself
and to point blame at everyone else.
828
00:59:35,684 --> 00:59:39,684
He chose not to hold himself accountable
and ask for forgiveness,
829
00:59:39,751 --> 00:59:44,717
but to make a jury of 12 of his peers
decide if he was accountable or not.
830
00:59:44,784 --> 00:59:49,951
They did that and in doing so, have put
you in the position you're in now.
831
00:59:50,018 --> 00:59:54,484
As God guided Teresa's life,
let him guide your decision now.
832
00:59:54,550 --> 00:59:55,951
It's your choice.
833
00:59:56,018 --> 00:59:59,851
I ask that you sentence Steven Avery
to life in prison without parole.
834
00:59:59,917 --> 01:00:01,250
Thank you.
835
01:00:03,550 --> 01:00:04,717
[Judge Willis] Mr. Avery, do you...
836
01:00:04,784 --> 01:00:08,717
You have the right to allocution
if you wish to speak now.
837
01:00:09,951 --> 01:00:15,584
Well, Your Honor,
I'm sorry for the Halbach family...
838
01:00:16,384 --> 01:00:18,417
Teresa Halbach's family,
839
01:00:18,484 --> 01:00:20,717
what they're going through, the pain...
840
01:00:22,417 --> 01:00:23,884
the hate they got.
841
01:00:26,484 --> 01:00:29,984
There's nothing else gonna bring her back.
You know?
842
01:00:31,784 --> 01:00:34,517
And my family,
what they're going through...
843
01:00:36,084 --> 01:00:38,851
and everybody's friends and the community.
844
01:00:39,984 --> 01:00:42,084
You know, it's hurting everybody.
845
01:00:43,917 --> 01:00:50,250
And for myself...
Teresa Halbach I didn't kill.
846
01:00:50,317 --> 01:00:52,684
I am innocent of all of this.
847
01:00:52,751 --> 01:00:56,384
And I figure later on,
I'll prove myself innocent.
848
01:00:59,951 --> 01:01:04,150
And I'll take it from there.
That's all I got. Thank you.
849
01:01:04,984 --> 01:01:09,584
I have to say, Mr. Avery,
that what particularly strikes the court,
850
01:01:09,651 --> 01:01:13,484
as I was preparing
for today's proceedings,
851
01:01:13,550 --> 01:01:19,384
is the... is the continuing danger
that you pose to those around you,
852
01:01:19,450 --> 01:01:24,317
evidenced not only
by the homicide in this case,
853
01:01:24,384 --> 01:01:27,283
but by its timing in your life.
854
01:01:27,350 --> 01:01:30,283
Whatever crimes may
have been a part of your past,
855
01:01:30,350 --> 01:01:36,018
at the time you committed this homicide,
everything suggested that your life
856
01:01:36,084 --> 01:01:38,784
was poised to take a turn for the better.
857
01:01:39,617 --> 01:01:43,484
However, despite having
the widespread sympathy of the public
858
01:01:43,550 --> 01:01:46,984
and the prospects
for a significant financial award,
859
01:01:47,051 --> 01:01:52,118
you committed the horrible crime that
brings you here to be sentenced today.
860
01:01:52,183 --> 01:01:56,051
In terms of assessing
your danger to society,
861
01:01:56,118 --> 01:01:58,150
the evidence forces me to conclude
862
01:01:58,217 --> 01:02:01,283
that you are probably
the most dangerous individual
863
01:02:01,350 --> 01:02:03,617
ever to set foot in this courtroom.
864
01:02:04,951 --> 01:02:07,051
Your attorney has argued eloquently
865
01:02:07,118 --> 01:02:11,951
that the court should make you eligible
for release at some point in the future.
866
01:02:12,018 --> 01:02:16,283
But from what I see,
nothing in your life suggests that society
867
01:02:16,350 --> 01:02:19,517
would ever be safe from your behavior.
868
01:02:20,584 --> 01:02:25,717
One of the things that strikes me the most
is that as you've grown older,
869
01:02:25,784 --> 01:02:28,884
your crimes have increased in severity.
870
01:02:28,951 --> 01:02:32,884
This crime was committed at a time
when you were 43 years old.
871
01:02:32,951 --> 01:02:37,317
Given the trend of your crimes, uh...
872
01:02:37,384 --> 01:02:40,217
society has a legitimate right
to be concerned
873
01:02:40,283 --> 01:02:42,817
that there is a serious risk
you would reoffend
874
01:02:42,884 --> 01:02:48,150
and commit serious offenses if you're ever
permitted to be released from prison.
875
01:03:11,317 --> 01:03:14,584
Most of what ails
our criminal justice system...
876
01:03:15,550 --> 01:03:20,917
lie in unwarranted certitude on the part
of police officers and prosecutors
877
01:03:20,984 --> 01:03:24,450
and defense lawyers and judges
and jurors...
878
01:03:25,317 --> 01:03:27,150
that they're getting it right.
879
01:03:28,217 --> 01:03:30,217
That they simply are right.
880
01:03:30,283 --> 01:03:35,517
Just a... a tragic lack of humility
881
01:03:35,584 --> 01:03:40,550
of everyone who participates
in our criminal justice system.
882
01:03:49,051 --> 01:03:52,283
We could all say that
we're never gonna commit a crime.
883
01:03:52,350 --> 01:03:57,417
But we can never guarantee that someone
will never accuse us of a crime.
884
01:03:57,484 --> 01:04:01,150
And if that happens, then, you know,
885
01:04:01,217 --> 01:04:05,018
good luck in this criminal justice system.
886
01:04:20,884 --> 01:04:23,884
[theme music plays]
887
01:04:23,918 --> 01:04:28,918
Sync and corrections by explosiveskull
www.addic7ed.com
==========EPISODE 10=============