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Int. 1. Psycho-Anal. (1993) 74, 1131
TWO DISCUSSIONS OF 'THE INNER EXPERIENCES
OF THE ANALYST' AND A RESPONSE FROM
THEODORE JACOBS
1. ANDRE GREEN, PARIS
For several years now, the Congresses of the
International Psychoanalytical Association
have demonstrated a legitimate concern. In
response to the multiplicity of theoretical
systems that have arisen in the post-Freudian
era, in which there co-exist ideas as diverse as
those of Klein, Bion, Winnicott, Hartmann,
Kohut and Lacan, to name but a few, we have
attempted, beyond the issues that divide psy-
choanalysts, to pinpoint those on which we
are united. Similarly, rather than continuing
to confront each other in the sphere of intel-
lectual speculation alone, we have endeavoured
to put in perspective the different ways of
understanding and experiencing the practice of
the treatment. This trend is illustrated, for
example, by the issue of the International
Journal of Psycho-Analysis, published in 1991,
devoted to 'Fifteen Clinical Accounts of Psycho-
analysis' (Volume 72, Part 3). It is clear from
a reading of these accounts that their fifteen
respective authors are extremely diverse not
only in their theoretical options, but also in the
way they understand the material of a session,
the choice of what is to be interpreted and
the formulation of their interpretations.
Today, two years on, the contributions-of
Theodore Jacobs, Madeleine Baranger and
Dennis Duncan-selected for this Congress
present their readers with a similar difficulty,
precisely because they differ so much from
each other. My reason for pointing this out
at the very beginning of my discussion of
Jacobs's presentation is to place my remarks
in proportion, and to emphasise that my view
Discussion paper presented at the 38th Congress of the International Psychoanalytical Association, Amsterdam, July
1993. Translated by Philip Slotkin.
is merely one among others and equally likely
to give rise to predictable disagreements. I have
never felt so strongly as after reading Jacobs's
contribution that our way of thinking is de-
termined by the place and time of our psy-
choanalytic training, by our allegiance to the
particular environment where we practise our
trade, and by our personal affinities. For ex-
ample, I felt much more familiar with the
approach of Baranger, but this is hardly sur-
prising in view of our common culture and
her profound knowledge of the French psy-
choanalytic literature: she even has the temerity
to quote authors who do not belong to the
IPA. Although I differ from Duncan in very
many respects, I felt that Europe was beginning
to become a reality when I realised how well
I could follow him in the logical development
of his argument, which, as it happens, pays
me the compliment of referring to some ideas
which I put forward in a paper devoted to
the memory of Winnicott at the London Con-
gress in 1975. Had I been an analyst on New
York's East Side and exposed to the influences
of my local society, I would no doubt have
felt at home with the positions adopted by
Jacobs, although, of course, even analysts from
one and the same continent or country can
have different opinions.
I am, I suppose, exaggerating these diver-
gences for the purposes of the discussion. After
all, our differences notwithstanding, we do all
belong to the same discipline and share the
same basic postulates. Yet the importance of
this situation cannot be underestimated, liable
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1132 DISCUSSIONS OF 'THE INNER EXPERIENCES OF THE ANALYST'
as it is to call into question the validity of
psychoanalytic knowledge by having it depend
on particular circumstances. Without dwelling
on the differences between these three presen-
tations, we may note the following: Jacobs's
contribution, unlike the other two-which,
however, confine themselves to a small number
of references---completely lacks a bibliography;
indeed, there is not even a mention of other
published works by the author himself. This
is tantamount to an assertion of theoretical
virginity, with attention focusing exclusively
on the clinical aspects of the treatment. How-
ever, it has been pointed out that, even where
our opinions appear to have been moulded by
practice alone, they may in fact be inspired
by an implicit theory camouflaged behind the
facts. How, in fact, could it be otherwise?
Let us, then, accept the exclusive reference
to the analytic treatment and examine its im-
plications. Jacobs's presentation possesses some
excellent qualities. Unlike many others who con-
dense several years of analysis into a few lines,
Jacobs has chosen to confine himself to a
single session, making us witnesses to what
evidently occurred during this analytic hour.
He has not merely recorded the words spoken
during this hour, but has allowed us to share-
as the theme of the Congress invited him to
do-this inner experience of himself, thus in
turn enabling us to explore his 'thoughts, feel-
ings, fantasies and physical sensations'. Hence
the position he has adopted is that of an
interface receiving stimuli from outside-every-
thing that comes from the patient (visual
perceptions, listening to the patient's words,
affective resonances, echoes of previous ses-
sions, etc.), and evokes other stimuli from
within himself. The author uses the image of a
lens through which the analysts mental pro-
cesses can be observed.
One sentence summarises Jacobs's position:
'I hope to illustrate the interactive aspects of
the psychoanalytic situation that has come into
focus in recent years and that has made an
important contribution to our field'. This thesis
inevitably arouses echoes of the I950sconception
of a 'two-bodies psychology', which has be-
come increasingly consolidated since that time,
even if its content has been greatly modified.
We may also note that one of the ideas shared
by all three presenters is the conception of
analysis as the history of the relationship be-
tween two partners who are equal participants.
However, it is plain from a reading of their
contributions that each interprets this idea
differently. The criticism, whether explicit or
implicit, manifested in such an approach must
not be overlooked. Let us summarise its es-
sential arguments.
I) It is impossible to account for what we
observe in practice, and hence to defend a
clinically-based theory, solely in terms of the
material expressed by the patient, reflecting a
self-propelled process that is nothing but a
reproduction of the past, fuelled by a repetition
compulsion. The transference and counter-
transference are now deemed to be comple-
mentary experiences which combine to form
the image of the analysis, that analysis being
inseparable from its history. This entails an
extension of the concept of countertransfer-
ence. As we know, this idea was championed
by Heimann in 1950. However, it is not here
a matter of the singular circumstances in which
the communication from analysand to analyst
takes place, by way of the reactions which the
latter is induced to experience now and then
in certain regressive structures, but rather of
the couple mutually carrying on constant com-
munications involving the two partners in the
situation. The practice of psychoanalysis there-
fore presupposes the active participation of the
psychic processes of the analyst. This calls into
question the ideal objectivity of the analysis;
subjectivity is now accepted as inevitable by
virtue of the acknowledgement of the analyst's
affects and representations during the session.
The analyst is no longer a mirror passively
recording the contents expressed by the patient,
but is now conceived as a polarity which
transforms the analysand's communications.
The analyst's interpretations bear witness to
the changes which have occurred during the
passage of the transference through the channel
of the countertransference.
2) The concept of instinct is, as the case
may be, relativised, minimised, or openly aban-
doned. In Jacobs's presentation, while instincts
(mostly aggressive ones) are mentioned, they
appear as a secondary expression of, or reac-
tion to, the dominance of the real physical
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DISCUSSIONS OF 'THE INNER EXPERIENCES OF THE ANALYST'
traumas sustained in early infancy, in pre-
oedipal times (circumcision, hernia, aggression
by others, etc.). Other ideas have taken over
from instincts: unconscious fantasy or object
relations for some authors, and, for Jacobs,
the interactive theory. For him, the analyst's
self-analysis during the session is the instru-
ment of choice for understanding the 'trans-
actions' which occur in it. Whereas Baranger
and Duncan explicitly admit their agreement
or disagreement with the ideas of certain
authors who feature in the psychoanalytic lit-
erature, the absence of references in Jacobs's
contribution reduces us to conjectures. In the
event, we do not know what he thinks about
the authors whose names are associated with
the interactive theories. Since he does not quote
anyone, nor will I. But, ultimately, the role of
traumas in early infancy is also taken into
consideration through their effects on sub-
sequent stages (the castration complex and the
Oedipus complex). Note, however, the absence
of references on the part of the patient-and of
the analyst-to the mother image, which ap-
pears only by way of the mother of the baby
in the house where he was invited to dinner.
So why is the analyst's mother also absent
from his inner experiences?
Let us return to the main theme of the
presentation. The analyst is caught between
two tasks: that of listening to the patient's
material and that of listening to himself, the
one implying the other. This involves a two-
fold effort of deciphering and a two-fold over-
coming of resistances, on the part of both
analysand and analyst alike. Here we must
bow to the sincerity and modesty of Jacobs,
who has no hesitation in conveying to us
the image of himself evoked or aroused by
his analysand, which is sometimes anything
but flattering, but whose origin he analyses,
impelled by the patient's defences (role-
reversal, identification with the aggressor).
However, the analyst's associations and in-
terpretations remain on a very decent level.
I am thinking in particular of the patient's
intense anal fixations, which do not seem to
arouse any echo in the analyst. Is this due to
the choice of session for the purposes of
public exposition, or is it the result of a
loss of interest in infantile sexuality? This is
1133
not the first time I have noticed that public
countertransference confessions stay within
certain bounds. I have never heard an analyst
admit to a passive fantasy of anal penetration
during the session as an effect of the counter-
transference.
It cannot be denied that the run of analytic
work today broadly resembles Jacobs's de-
scription; it is not difficult to follow the ana-
lyst's associations in their countertransference
symmetry. It is interesting to postulate an
exclusive intra-analytic reference-Leo to relate
everything that develops in the treatment to
the analytic experience alone, that of the ana-
lysand eliciting the analyst's own. This self-
reference turns the analytic space into a space
which cannot be interpreted other than in terms
of its own parameters. I do not wish to give the
impression that I am in serious disagreement
with Jacobs, whose demonstration is coherent
and in many respects convincing. However,
my ungrateful function here is to draw atten-
tion to the points which I consider to be
debatable or lacking in the position here put
forward:
1) I felt-perhaps wrongly-that there might
have been some confusion between the ana-
lyst's associations during the session and those
which came afterwards, while he was writing
it up, notwithstanding the author's assevera-
tions. In this connection, the analyst's asso-
ciation to his writer friend who sharpens his
pencils before settling down to write might be
indicative of the conscious or unconscious fan-
tasy of writing about the patient, and indeed
writing about the forthcoming session, even
before the patient sets foot in the room. I find
it difficult to believe that Jacobs was able at
one and the same time to listen to what his
patient had to say to him and to let himself
listen to himself at such length. Is it possible
to listen to two communications at the same
time, even if they are both in resonance? If
Jacobs was able to let himself dwell on his
associations he must have, almost of necessity,
stopped listening to the patient during this
time. But, you will object, what about evenly-
suspended attention? This, it seems to me,
differs from the implicit bipolarity of the work
in the session presented by Jacobs.
2) In my view, a distinction must be made,
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1134 DISCUSSIONS OF 'THE INNER EXPERIENCES OF THE ANALYST'
in analysing the inner experiences of the ana-
lyst, between (a) the effect of the patient's
words on his own thought just when he is
concerned to analyse it and to decide what
elements of what he understands to throw back
at the analysand; and (b) the evocation of his
own memories or affects in self-analytic terms.
I am thinking of Duncan's description of his
hesitations about what he will interpret to his
patient. Here we surely have two different
attitudes. In the first, the patient's psychic
material is considered from different viewpoints
according to the particular line of interpretation
that is favoured, while in the second the analyst
allows himself to be penetrated by the personal
evocations aroused by the analysand's com-
munication, which then supply answers to the
analyst's questions and, in effect, dictate a
'ventriloquistic' interpretation.
3) It seems to me somewhat doubtful
whether Jacobs is able to work on his own
inner experiences in this way in all sessions
and with all patients. The situation would
quickly become stereotyped, repetititive and
exhausting at the end of the day. After all,
this particular session is not just any session,
but represents the beginning of a new phase
in the professional life of Jacobs, now en-
sconced in his fine new office; again, this
patient provides Jacobs with opportunities to
identify with him by way of certain similarities.
Presumably the analyst also has patients whose
history and origins differ appreciably from his
own, thus limiting the possibility of identifi-
cations, at least on that level.
4) Excessively close attention to the patient's
ethnic, social, economic and 'psychological'
(in the strict sense of the word) background
may have the same effect as the trees for which
the wood cannot be seen. Such a view confines
the analyst within a somewhat restricted vision
of analytic psychopathology: 'He and I are
both afraid of our fathers, he and I avoid
competition, he and I both have castration
anxiety, etc.', or, conversely, 'I look shabby,
but he is filthy rich', or 'I am a Jew who has
remained faithful to Judaism, but he is a
renegade'. The patient is concerned with ap-
pearances and Jacobs is not satisfied with the
appearance of his office-even before the pa-
tient enters the room. The mirroring effect
mentioned by the analyst raises very particular
countertransference problems. However, we
may note that, while the session begins with
considerations of social status and financial
success, it ultimately leads into traumatic
bodily anxieties deriving from intense painful
experiences in the past. As we can see, there
is a 'progression into regression' during the
analytic hour.
But even if the analyst's inner experiences
extend from the clearest thoughts to the vaguest
bodily movements, his mental activity will never
cease to be in close proximity to what is
conscious or nearly so in the patient, just as
it will never become detached from limpid
rationality. The analyst's inner experiences, like
the processes taking place in the patient, re-
main on a realistic and comprehensible level.
The id, the internal object or archaic fanta-
sies---call them what you will, they are all
absent from the session. The field thus remains
centred on the ego: from the social to the
bodily and vice versa.
All the same, the end of the session is worth
commenting on. To remain on the superficial
level of largely preconscious considerations and
to make only the obvious connections in the
material, it is the patient who ultimately knows
what is going on in the analyst's mind better
than in his own. From this point of view, Mr
V's conjecture about what the analyst is think-
ing is less an indication of his insight than of
his ability to focus more on what the object
is thinking than on what is going on inside
himself, while remaining on his guard in a way
that demonstrates his resistance to the passivity
required by free association. The situation then
is one in which the analysand does his best
to ward off the element of surprise emanating
from the object. Indeed, the analyst tells him
as much in his reply. The session then ends
with the idea of the pre-emptive strike by
Israeli aircraft; while reflecting the way he
originally 'charged' into the room, on a more
unconscious level this also has to do with the
fear of intrusive and castrating homosexual
aggression by the analyst. The session ends at
the point where it should have begun. The
final touch, when the patient congratulates the
analyst on his new office as he leaves, seems
to me to be an expression of the patient's false
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DISCUSSIONS OF 'THE INNER EXPERIENCES OF THE ANALYST'
self, or perhaps of submission after he has ad-
mitted to the fear of unforeseen aggression.
Jacobs has traversed an enormous distance
between the initial ring of the bell and the end
of the session. His interpretations have cov-
ered, in turn, identification with the aggressor,
castration anxiety and withdrawal in the face
of the Oedipus complex, envy of the penis (the
elder brother's and the father's), the subliminal
perception (or negative hallucination) of the
Jewish symbol which evokes circumcision and,
finally, the memory traces of the bodily trau-
mas of early infancy, whether accidental or
symbolic.
At one point the similarity of postures be-
tween analyst and patient (hands on the ab-
domen or belt) suggests the image of two
swimmers engaged in synchronised swimming,
facing each other in a mirror. Identification
has taken place. However, the symmetry op-
erating during the session takes on another
meaning afterwards. The final image of the
pre-emptive strike is its opposite. The question
is: who is in the Israeli fighter? The analyst,
but whom does he represent: the angry father
or the insensitive, rough mother accidentally
pricking her baby? Projective identification of
his own destructive wishes? What matters is
to note this polysemous structure, whose con-
tents are reflected in each other. Be that as it
may, it is impossible to rule out the idea of
a connection between an external, unforesee-
able stimulus coming like a bolt from the
blue and an internal stimulus resulting from
an uncontrollable and devastating instinctual
surge.
I shall end with some general remarks. I
must confess to a certain reluctance to follow
blindly the current fashion for embracing cer-
tain recent theses of wide dissemination. As
we know, many now hold that Freud's meta-
psychology is fit only for the garbage can and
that his clinical contributions alone remain
valid. However, when I reread one of Freud's
papers for the nth time I still feel that I am
learning something new, whereas, at a distance
of ten years, papers published in our best
psychoanalytic journals are unreadable and out
of fashion. I would add that there seems to
be a dangerous tendency for psychoanalysis to
lean towards an interpersonal theory, which I
1135
believe to be erroneous. After Freud's theory
of the instincts was called into question, it was
the turn of object-relations theory. Nowadays,
in the place of object relations, we are offered
a simplified version of this theory in the form
of interpersonal relations and, as if the refer-
ence to persons were still too complicated,
along comes an interactive theory. In my view,
this is liable to result in some misconceptions.
The way my patient influences my mental
processes has to do with the representations
of all kinds that he induces in me. My inter-
pretations affect him by way of the repre-
sentations to which they give rise in him. There
is no place in an analytic session for acts,
either by the analysand or by the analyst.
Models based on a reference to action-'inter-
action', 'trans-action'-thus represent not so
much a step forward as a dangerous sidetrack.
I would rather have models based on repre-
sentation, in a much wider sense than the term
has traditionally been understood, although I
cannot go into detail on this now. The field
of representation, in my sense, extends from
bodily sensations to thoughts. So Jacobs is
surely telling us about representations and not
about action. You will tell me that I am
attributing too much importance to words, but
words give rise to ways of thinking-and ways
of thinking to ways of understanding, which
ultimately lead to ways of doing.
I believe that theoretical progress will accrue
from the combination of two inseparable view-
points, the intrapsychic and the intersubjec-
tive-i.e. what takes place within a single mind
and what takes place between two subjects.
Two subjects are not two agents but two
beings each with his own wishes and thoughts.
Psychic reality cannot, in my view, be reduced
to the result of the mutual actions of two
partners. There are characteristics which stem
from an internal structuring, characteristics
which subject relational effects to a form of
intrinsic functioning. How could a dream be
the result of an interaction? It is not for
nothing that the session in question does not
include any account of a dream; the patient
would feel on much shakier ground were he
to communicate what arises within himself
irrationally and escapes the control of his
ego. I consider that dreams remain the central
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1136 DISCUSSIONS OF 'THE INNER EXPERIENCES OF THE ANALYST'

phenomenon whereby the unconscious ex-
presses itself; they have to do with the intrap-
sychic dimension, their communication in the
transference belongs to the intersubjective di-
mension, and their interpretation is a matter
of the combination of the intrapsychic and
intersubjective dimensions.
It is all very well to criticise without saying
what one would have done oneself in such
circumstances. For my part, I think I would
have been much less interested in the aspect
of the patient's behaviour or his outward ap-
pearance. I confess, too, that I would have
paid more attention to the words spoken in
the session; through these I would have tried to
construct a model of unconscious repre-
sentation that would have attempted to
account for the different registers (instinct,
fantasy and symbolism). So 'nouveau riche'
rhymes with 'sons of beetches'. Are we not
talking about the mother, named allusively
in a moment of manic defence?
I believe, too, that I would have constructed
in my thought another model in terms of the
Andre Green
9 avenue de l'Observatoire
75006 Paris
(MS. received September 1993)
relations between external and internal ob-
jects-i.e. between outside and inside, and be-
tween surface and depth-and that I would
have tried to grasp the inner world of this
patient, who seems to be locked up in his
narcissism. As stated, we hear not a word
about the mother or any female love-object.
Instead, he deploys a solid character-armour,
lined with an ambivalent fraternal homosexu-
ality, which, so far as we can see, goes virtually
uninterpreted in this session and does not
seem to arouse any inner experiences in the
analyst. In other words, my conception of the
psychic field is extended with a bias towards
language and also towards internal objects. I
oppose a refusal to 'forget' infantile sexuality
or to decrease my interest in narcissism. Al-
ready I can hear the voices of my critics-who
are perhaps even more numerous than those
of Jacobs. I should like to end with a question:
'Will Jacobs's interactive analysis be sufficient
to motivate this patient eventually to acknow-
ledge his own inner universe instead of merely
guessing at his analyst's?' Wait and ... listen.
Copyright © Institute of Psycho-Analysis, London, 1993

2. LEONARDO WENDER, BUENOS AIRES

As I was getting ready for this discussion, I
decided to type Dr Jacobs's paper into my
portable PC to make things easier. In fact, I
had never felt the need to copy out a whole
text before. Besides this unusual typing task,
I found there was something particular in his
style that led me to write in the first person
what both the analyst and the patient had
said. I then had the extraordinary feeling of
inputting the material as if it were my own,
since I was unintentionally rewriting the same
paper, that is, producing Dr Jacobs's twin!
Thus, 'I' become 'them', standing 'side by side'
in their East Side, and they, too, unwittingly
entered my mental life. Now, in front of the
'real' Dr Jacobs and you all, the spell is
broken.
But, although I was not the authentic ana-
lyst, this sharing of consulting-rooms placed
me in a parallel, where our analytic minds
were organised in an almost experimental way.
The context was so duplicated as to suggest
the following question: 'There being two ana-
lysts sharing the same listening, towards which
interpretation will their minds be oriented?'.
My experience with the material was fac-
ilitated by Dr Jacobs's true, confessional
style, which includes his most intimate asso-
ciations. It is a manner that in turn awakens
a reciprocal, sincere and empathic listening.

Discussion paper presented at the 38th Congress of the International Psychoanalytical Association, Amsterdam, July
1993.
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