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28/06/2021 The case for Brexit was built on lies.
exit was built on lies. Five years later, deceit is routine in our politics : unitedkingdom
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Posted by u/Elliottafc1 22 hours ago
The case for Brexit was built on lies. Five years later,
deceit is routine in our politics
theguardian.com/commen... 
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frecklyelbow · 21h
Deceit was a norm in politics, post Brexit reality just revealed it to the masses.
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canaryherd · 12h
I agree that deceit has always played a big part in politics. But until recently in the UK, if
you were caught in an outright lie on a serious matter there would be consequences. The
current government regularly lie and nothing happens when they're caught.
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28/06/2021 The case for Brexit was built on lies. Five years later, deceit is routine in our politics : unitedkingdom
Randomd0g · 9h
The current government regularly lie and nothing happens when they're caught.
But the minute you neck one secretary...
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canaryherd · 7h
Exactly. Isn't it obscene that after the mishandling of the pandemic, the chaos in
care homes, PPE scandals he resigns over this??
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cstross · 7h
Hancock had become an embarrassment, but they needed a reason to fire him
that could not also be aimed at the PM or other cabinet ministers.
They use the media as a death match arena: different ministers represent
different media empires -- Johnson is in the Telegraph/Spectator corner, Gove is
with The Times, etc.
canaryherd · 5h
I'm sure you're right. Media manipulation is beyond a joke now: leak a policy
announcement via the tabloids, assess social media response amongst the
base, adjust as necessary - another common one.
heinzbumbeans · 4h
youre right that they use the media to their own ends, but im not sure thats
what happened here. if so, then why would jonstone give his "full support"
and "consider the matter closed" a day before hancock quit? it just makes
him look unnecessarily bad if the plan was for him to go anyway.
cstross · 3h
You're assuming Johnson is competent and consistent. Chaotic and

bumbling I'll grant you: he also has form -- lots of it -- for doing U-turns
at short notice.
RaymondBumcheese · 12h
Yeah, it’s not particularly deceit that Brexit gave us, it’s more the lack of consequences
that empower our government to do whatever it wants
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IDontLikeBeingRight · 11h
No, they're different kinds of lies, told in different ways.
It used to be "here's a disingenuous misinterpretation of a statistic that was at least true

within it's own context."
Now it's "here's obviously false insane bullshit we just made up based on nothing, which
can be directly disproven with either cursory investigation or basic common sense, but
we're saying it out loud."
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TudorSuta · 12h
I think Brexit was one of those issues that logically had so few merits and so many
demerits that their usual level of gaslighting and deceit would not work for them
anymore. However, they needed to push this through, so they had no choice but to
overtly lie and deceive to even make the idea sound half reasonable. Probably to their
surprise, it worked very well, they gained power through overt deception and lies and
now they are merely reveling. CON +3
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archiminos · 17h
Can it be called deceit if the lies are so blatant they fool no one?
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BaxterParp · 14h
Dundonian Gadgie
If leave voters weren't fooled, what the fuck did they vote for?
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Nambot · 13h
Less foreigners.
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kri5 · 11h
"No, I voted to not have to be under EU law" - Care to name one? - "No, but that's
not the point" ....
JuXas · 11h
Could not be more accurate. And now everyone is paying the price for their
stupidity.
 Search     Free 
dopoh · 10h
A leave voter I know said that the EU destroyed British farming. He couldn't
explain how or why, but it was something to do with the French. I don't
understand how they have this idea that the whole EU is in cahoots against
us. Why would the EU want to destroy our farming/fishing/any other
industries to benefit other EU members? I struggle to see the motive.
dchurch2444 · 5h
Victim mentality. Sadly, there's a lot of it about. In my experience, those

who voted to leave the EU have all had some kind of victim complex; "my
neighbour just bought a brand new BMW. Probably a drug dealer or
something...I can't afford one of those, and I work 9 days a
week....etc....", "If it wasn't for the bloody Frogs nicking all our fish, I'd
have a brand new BMW as well...."
JuXas · 4h
Yup, pretty much that to be honest.
barryvm · 10h · edited 10h
European Union
IMHO, for some people that could be exactly right. The reasons and
consequences of Brexit are not the point. The struggle is.
The idea is to fight people and groups you dislike, i.e. the elite, the
establishment, ... It doesn't matter what the real world consequences might be,
just that you can nurture and vent your grievances, real or imagined. None of
the reasons need actually make sense, nor do you need to acknowledge the
consequences of the choices you make, because neither have any real
substance other than to serve as justification for pre-existing emotional bias or
as a backdrop for the (ever changing) narrative. This is also the deeper meaning
of "we have had enough of experts": we prefer a good story where we are the
heroes over facts and consequences. The outcome of this is that any debate
becomes pointless, because one side will not enter into it to defend its view or
convince the other side, but rather as a profession of faith and identity and to
do their part in the struggle with which they have associated them. Logic and
facts are useless against this, because an attempt to use them in a debate will
be interpreted on the same basis: not as an attempt to convince but as an
assertion that you belong to the opposite camp.
In the specific case you mention, the objective would then not be to get rid of a
specific
 Search     Free
EU law, but to "win" against the EU and its domestic supporters. The

latter are, of course, what it is all about, because without a domestic enemy
there would be no immediacy to the struggle. Now that Brexit has been
"achieved", expect this energy to be directed towards other targets, as the
politicians are certainly not going back to the boring old ways. Whether it will
be as successful as a political tactic is another question.
nopartisan · 11h
I've done this dance many times here and named several laws and every single
time the debate is in bad faith. Firstly tge question is based on an entirely false
premise as the EU is a body of law so there's going to be thousands of small
rules affecting what you'll see as niches rather than one or two giant difficult
ones that we can all point at, yet the question demands those or claims a
gotcha. The other tactics are to downplay the examples (see my previous
gotcha point) or worse to try and bullshit about nebulous terms like influence
or to divert off about the Single Market. I've never ever seen this question
debated in good faith over 5 years.
A more honest response for both sides are Benn's 5 questions as that is the
crux of the issue and not rules on wood burning stoves. The rules are a result of
where power sits so the principle covers them all.
kri5 · 10h
I get the argument of the principal of governing yourself. The problem is

that none of these rules negatively effected the country in any meaningful
way, and that's before you even take into account the huge benefits...
nopartisan · 10h
You've just done exactly what I said.
kri5 · 10h
But if the downplaying is legitimate?
nopartisan · 9h
Then I'd certainly like to see those legitimate thoughts, but in five
years worth of seeing this play out I have never come across them
here.

cj__________ · 8h
Edinburgh
I believe the point is that on balance, taking feelings out of the

mix. If you looked at both situations side by side, there has
been almost 0 tangible benefits to brexit. While it comes with a
whole host of complications and very likely, financial hardship
for many.
It's less about specific laws as you say, and more about the
holistic picture. It's self-harm on a national scale, pressed
forward regardless of sense as part of a wider political game.
No one is benefiting except for the hard brexit politicians

leveraging their wealth to take advantage of a manufactured
crisis.

Continue this thread
barryvm · 12h
European Union
Some may want to be fooled. Some may have decided that every politician lies, so
why not vote for those lies they want to hear? Some may simply want Brexit because
it aligns with pre-existing emotional triggers and believe the lies because they justify
the choice. Many will not have voted for the promises, but for the struggle, i.e. to give
a good kicking to the status quo and to derail the supposed plans of people and
groups they do not like.
In all of those cases, you do not need convincing lies or even a coherent narrative. You
just need to supply your supporters with a cause they can attach their identity to.
Above all you need to keep the struggle going by continuously picking fights with
enemies, real and imagined.
In short, there are many reasons to vote without being fooled in the traditional sense
of the word.
archiminos · 10h
I don't believe they were fooled. I think they just have some weird sense of
nationalistic pride that they're willing to defend lies upon lies to get that feeling of
sovunty. And less brown people.
Iwantadc2 · 13h
Apart from 17 million people.
Which is a terrifyingly high number.

theclansman22 · 22h
The idea that the lies only started five years ago is a novel one. I remember Tony Blair
saying we were something like 45 minutes away from mushrooms clouds over London/NYC
if we didn't invade Iraq. 100% lies, and they not only got hundreds of thousands of innocent
people killed, but also kickstarted a chain of events that led to the refugee crisis that was
arguably a major contributing factor to Brexit passing. You can find stuff like this from any
leader from any democracy in the world. Lies of convenience, lies to cover their asses, lies to
help their allies.
distantapplause · 19h
Difference there is that they lied about classified intelligence, which is difficult for the
electorate to falsify or disprove. You wouldn't be gullible if you believed them, because
national security and foreign intelligence is one of the areas where you just sort of have
to trust the government to make the call because you can't know everything.
Political lies now are much more brazen because even ridiculous, easily falsifiable bullshit
is printed on a bus and advanced with the knowledge that people will stand by it or
ignore it depending on their own agenda. Brexit does feel like a watershed in bullshit.
There's simply no comparison between the type of political lie in 2008 and the firehose of
bullshit politicians are getting away with right now.
Three words: 'contempt of Parliament'. I remember when politicians used to resign for
being caught lawfully helping a mate with a passport application. Now you have to pretty
much preside over one of the worst death rates in Europe, while giving health contracts
to your mates to sell outdated PPE, while breaking the lockdown rules you were in charge
of, while cheating on your wife - but only if you do all four at the same time.
passinghere · 18h
Somerset
The idea that the lies only started five years ago is a novel one.
The press has been demonising the EU for decades, straight bananas, no beer in pints
only litres / half litres, etc, etc, etc
And just to top it off guess what lying fucking wanker it was that pushed a hell of a lot of
all these BS claims to incite EU hatred while "working" (if you can call it that) as a
journalist... Alexander Boris "lying fuckwit" De Piffle Johnson... couldn't make this up if
you tried :(
edited 9h
nopartisan
IIRC he was· 9hclever
· and made it about the ability to hit the British territory on Cyprus.
edit: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/05/iraq.iraq1
dwair · 13h
Kernow
Let's be honest here. Brexit was just more lies from politicians. Nothing new there.
The difference with Brexit though is that people actually bought into the lies. The more
outlandish they became, the more people believed them.

TheFergPunk · 5h
Scotland
I think it's more that things got way more tribal and people embraced the lies, where as
previously lies where met with contempt
They know they are lying, but they are on "their side" so it's okay
Kaiisim · 10h
Brexit gave the Tories a core voter group that is highly ideologically motivated, and has no
real concerns about policy or reality. As long as they feel a certain way, they will rabidly vote
tory.
Labour split their base, and tried to keep everyone happy and now no one is happy.
Tories will cling to power because the bullshit they generate in politics makes their
opponents less likely to vote, but their core more likely to vote.
Culture wars forever now.
Infinitystar2 · 9h
Politicians have lied for as long as Politicians existed, Brexit was just the biggest example of
this generation
Fuzzy-Serve · 9h
The remain/rejoin/48% and growing side of the Brexit divide should really embrace the
whole lying thing, as should the left.
No one's going to win an election or referendum again by just telling the truth, not when
the other side's going balls to the wall on lies, shit posting, distractinary techniques and
using dirty money.

I don't like it, but you can't win a fight if you tie one hand behind your back AND give the
other person steroids.
bob_fossill · 8h
Listen, I voted remain, but this Liberal melt obsession with Brexit being the cause of all our
political issues is tedious
Blair's entire tenure was based on lies. If the man opened his mouth he was lying so I fail to
see how deceit has suddenly become an issue
backcountry57 · 20h
Wow the corrupt British government lied. We should know this by now
pickled-egg · 7h
Scotland
Guardian was absolutely fine with massive lies in 2014.
MusesLegend · 11h
Ah the old argument that absolutely doesn't cause divisiveness and anger (because of
course the left would never do that)
'You must have been lied to to have that opinion otherwise you must be really really stupid'.
I mean honestly, do you people truly believe you're the innocent ones when it comes to the
bile, populism and hate that now surrounds our politics.
S_Borealis · 9h
The fact reference is constantly made to 'the left' and 'the right' as if these schools were
homogeneous entities whose members all hold the same views is a big part of the
problem. Treating every situation as if it were binary is a convenient shorthand that has
fuelled the tribalism over the years, and continues to do so.
Those in power love it. Who needs nuance to explain complex geopolitics when slogans
and tweets are enough to convince people you're right?
Tromso_Funboy
Somerset · 9h
 the
"The Left", Brexit
Search left/right
debacle didn't fall under the typical  dichotomy.
  Free Secondly, 
Remainers didn't ask for Brexit to happen. This culture war was instigated by the
populists, Eurosceptics and their followers.
MinderReminder · 18h
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BOL0CKS · 12h
I personally didn't vote and went to the pub. Ti's amusing to see the arguments for and
against. Very passionate responses and very enjoyable to read.
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Thepannacotta · 1h
The contract is clear. 52% get the racist country they want and in return anything goes. I’ll
enjoy toasting marshmallows on their burning economy.
 Vote
imightarguewithyou · 22h · edited 13h

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28/06/2021 The case for Brexit was built on lies.

Posts Regional Subs Advice Subs

Posted by u/Elliottafc1 22 hours ago

 89 Comments  Award  Share  90% Upvoted

What are your thoughts?

View discussions in 1 other community

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You're assuming Johnson is competent and consistent. Chaotic and

No, they're different kinds of lies, told in different ways.

It used to be "here's a disingenuous misinterpretation of a statistic that was at least true

Victim mentality. Sadly, there's a lot of it about. In my experience, those

Yup, pretty much that to be honest.

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I get the argument of the principal of governing yourself. The problem is

You've just done exactly what I said.

But if the downplaying is legitimate?

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I believe the point is that on balance, taking feelings out of the

No one is benefiting except for the hard brexit politicians

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Apart from 17 million people.

Which is a terrifyingly high number.

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Culture wars forever now.

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using dirty money.

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Guardian was absolutely fine with massive lies in 2014.

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imightarguewithyou · 22h · edited 13h

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