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Greimas
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to A Ricoeur Reader
some progress was made, but it still is not satisfying, since this level of
analysis is extremely complex. My first observation is that we can
encounter figurative expression at different levels of depth. To take a
very simple case, for example indirect discourse, when I say that it is
warm, this can mean 'open the window.' Therefore, 'it is warm' is a
figure for saying something else. Another type is parabolic discourse,
which is found for example in the Gospels. If you take the parable of
the Prodigal Son you can see that the four or five partial parables,
which do not start at exactly the same point, narrate the story
figuratively. Each parable is displaced a little in relation to the other,
but one can establish, by partial parables, so to speak, the common
thematic level that can account for the figurativization of the whole.
This is another way of grasping figurativity, the type of discourse
which we have studied most.
Finally, figurativity is found at the deep level of discourse, as was
illustrated, for example, by Denis Bertrand in his thesis on Zola's
Germinal.9 In Zola's story about miners living underground, spatial
configurations and spatial figures are transformed and become, so to
speak, an autonomous language. When we read the novel we think
that the lives of the miners are being narrated but, in fact, what is
narrated is the great mystery of the mediation within this under-
ground universe. Spatiality becomes an almost abstract sort of lan-
guage to speak about something other than surface figurativity.
These few examples are meant simply to point out that what I call the
discursive level of semiotics is a level in which there is an articulation,
a level at which other levels of depth can be found. The problematics
of levels is a strategy because the number of levels can be increased
or diminished in order to facilitate the analysis and the construction
of the model.
Ricoeur: I find this answer satisfactory, satisfactory because I ac-
knowledge and welcome this capacity of semiotics to expand. But I
wonder whether the initial model is not undermined by this expan-
sion, and whether the price to pay for such an expansion is not a
complete reformulation of the basic terms of depth and surface. It is
not by chance you ended up speaking about the depth of the surface,
which, if I may say so, now has a meaning quite different from your
original usage. We are no longer dealing with the idea that there are
logical, semantic rules having a logic of transformation which are
subsequently invested with anthropomorphic roles, and that then
those anthropomorphic roles are once more invested in figures.
Here figure itself has depth, and a quite different use is being made
of the term figure from that of the term/zgura, to which Auerbach
devoted one of his most extraordinary essays. Here we are dealing
with the polysemantic capacity of discourse, and it is no longer
possible to know if we are at the level of the depth of the surface.
The same story may be read in different ways because it is multilay-
ered, and this multilayered nature of any story calls for the role of a
reader, which we have not discussed at all. I think that by necessity
we have to reintroduce the dialectic between the text and the reader
because of this polysemanticism. I will give one example of bringing
out the complexity of the figure, to which we bring meaningfulness
but also introduce something that Kermode called secrecy. He took
the example of parables and the strong interpretation given them by
Mark. Parables are narrated in order not to be understood, that is to
say, there is an increase of secrecy. The actual title of his work is The
Genesis of Secrecy.w We therefore have to take into account the
possibility of another kind of deep meaning, and in so doing we join
up with the whole tradition of symbolism concerning the four mean-
ings of the Scriptures, for example. This is a tradition which, I think,
has a scope quite different from that of deep structure as it is
defined by semiotics. Finally, the best stories, those of Kafka, for
example, are not intended to increase intelligibility but to increase
perplexity and to call into question the reader's understanding. Here
productivity of the surface level is all the more striking as it increases
both meaningfulness and puzzlement.
Greimas: I agree in part with what you say. None the less, I would like
to make a brief observation. What scientific status can be given to
this type of task? Both of us have been speaking about intelligibility,
but intelligibility can be situated at different levels. We can under-
stand the main line, the essential; we can also attempt to understand
the greater and greater complexity of discourse. I once investigated
automatic translation. At that time it was said that to translate the
syntax of simple sentences the computer had to carry out two thou-
sand binary operations. Now, if we were to take a short story as
complex as Maupassant's 'Deux amis,' we could ask how many
binary operations would be necessary to analyse such a text. At each
level I feel we would reach the sum of several million at least.
Discourse is a complex object and so is the world. Hence, there are
no objections in principle if we deepen our knowledge of this phe-
nomenon.
Notes
1 See also Paul Ricoeur, 'Greimas's Narrative Grammar,1 this volume, pp. 256-
86.
2 Louis Marin, Semiotique de la passion: Topiques et figures (Paris: Aubier-
Montaigne, 1971)
3 Algirdas Julien Greimas, Maupassant: The Semiotics of Text: Practical
Exercises, trans, by Paul Perron (Amsterdam: J. Benjamin, 1988)
4 See Language in Culture and Society: A Reader in Linguistics and Anthropol-
ogy, ed. by Dell Hymes (New York: Harper and Row, 1964).
5 Kate Hamburger, The Logic of Literature, trans, by Marilyn G. Rose
(Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1973)
6 Dorritt Cohn, Transparent Minds: Narrative Modes for Presenting Conscious-
ness in Fiction (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1978)
7 For a detailed discussion of this point, see Jean Petitot-Cocorda,
Morphogenese du sens (Paris: Presses Universitaires de France, 1985), esp. pp.
260-8. See also Paul Perron, Introduction,' On Meaning: Selected Writings in
Semiotic Theory, by Algirdas Julien Greimas, trans, by Paul Perron and Frank
Collins (Minneapolis: Minnesota University Press, 1987), pp. xxiv-xlv
8 Jacques Fontanille, Le Savoir partage: Semiotique et theorie de la connaissance
chez Marcel Proust (Paris: Hades-Benjamins, 1987)
9 Denis Bertrand, L'espace et lesens: 'Germinal' d'Emile Zola (Paris: Hades-
Benjamins, 1985)
10 Frank Kermode, The Genesis of Secrecy: On the Interpretation of Narrative
(Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1979)