Interview 1 with Rachelle

Samantha Guo
Samantha: The first question is, how was the mangroves introduced?
Rachelle: Yeah, so mangroves were introduced here in 1922 and there were areally
distributed as a part of our restoration effort to kind of to combat the fact that like a lot of
erosion, sediment and runoff was happening because um Pretty much after once stopped
farming Kalo, which previously held in all the soil of land of Malka where they were. You
know where they were farming, all that stuff just came running down whenever there was a
big flood or major rain event and so that's all of this muddy stuff out here. It's like all black
and muddy and smells really bad so yeah 1922 they just like planted a whole bunch of these
little pod things. You can kind of see them popping up everywhere. Those are mangrove
seedlings and they just popped up all over the place and took over. They are now found
independent host on the island.
Samantha: With the pandemic going on, do you think it has created a negative or positive
effect on this? Because there are so news articles that said that some animals were coming
back because there is less human disruption.
Rachelle: You mean in terms of, like how mangroves affect the shorelines and stuff? I'm not
too sure about this area, but I do know that the birds are coming back. I don’t know. I think it.
I'm not too sure why birds have started coming back. I think some of it has to do with the loii
upstream from us. So right across the street is kaokoollivi and they are taking care of the loii
and like all of the wetland birds go back there and we’ve had a few come here like when I
started working at paepae which was just a few months before the pandemic so its was
happening before the pandemic. In terms of wetland birds. Im not too sure about any other
sea creatures, but I do know that the pandemic has made it so that we are not able to weed as
many mangroves or get rid of as many mangroves, so we are seeing like a ton of mangroves
seedlings pop up and grow really really quickly. Like that area for example, as those
mangroves have grown really tall and they all used to be small seedlings. Yeah im not sure if
it has any effects on the wildlife, I mean im not too sure about if that has changed much.

Samantha: So why should we care about these invasive species. Should we let nature fix
itself.
Rachelle: That’s a really good, loaded question so mangroves were introduced here by
humans, so and like their taking over and the thing about mangroves is that it doesn’t really
facilitate any like habitat for native plants to grow back and so like if we let mangroves
unchecked, the way we have been, none of that like bird wetland habitat is going to
comeback at all. Or like you know facilitate. For example, feral cats live over here and those
will totally annulate our native bird population and since we have been clearing mangrove
along the side over there we’ve been seeing a lot of feral cats like more evidence of them
coming toward our property, but like yeah, we haven't been seeing that much of a population
boom in terms of our wetland birds. Um but yeah, I don’t know I think that if it grows
unchecked, I don’t think it would help very much thing is native plants can't compete with it
and its not native to this area so it wouldn’t facilitate any meaning in the long term
Samantha: So what can we do to stop the spread of mangroves?
Rachelle: Um you can come and volunteer at places like this, you can educate people about
mangroves because a lot of people are attached to the idea that the mangrove are an important
keystone species, but they’re not a part of our ecosystem. Although I they are native to places
like Florida, and southeast Asia like the Philippines where it might be vital to those
ecosystems, but they’re not here so yeah, they’re all along here and they’re all along people's
backyards and people like them because they think it offers privacy. You know things like
that its quite detrimental so yeah education is for sure one thing and you know getting people
out and recognizing what they are like a lot of people see them on the beaches and the groups
that we’ve had are like I snap these on the beach all the time so that’s a good thing too so
getting rid of all the trees because the trees are the ones dispersing the seeds and then
snapping them when you see them

Samantha: So this fishpond the purpose was to raise fish right so does it still raise fish for the
community?
Rachelle: The fishpond its self so yeah it definitely does. We are meeting a lot of challenges
in terms of producing fish and the functionality of the fishpond so our fishpond is set up so
that its supposed to maximizes the environment for alma alma or mullet. We are not at the
point fish production like where we need to be where we want to be because of all the
different obstacles like the invasive gorilla Ogal and the water the presence of predators
within the fishpond and like the back of the wall not being finished because the wall comes
around to the Malka side it's supposed to help dissipate pressure of floods you know like
heavy rains so it wasn’t really constructed until recently so now it is more functional but we
still have more ways to go to in terms of producing fish for the whole community its mostly
just feeding people on community work days the little small little invasive fish we catch
where there are lots and we catch those cus their predators and they compete with native fish
and then that’s what we have a lot of to feel our volunteers.

Samantha: Could you describe the process of removing the mangroves?

Rachelle: Yeah so it used to cover the whole wall over here and before like closer to the
south, mangroves are a little bit smaller so it would be like hand saw removal so you could
just saw at it until it comes down and you have to cut it as low as possible and then the bigger
trees in the back over there. We use chainsaws. I'm just kind of have to direct where they go
and like there's a whole crew that pulls like helps direct the fall of the mangroves, so that's
kind of what it's like and then what you guys did today, lopping all the seedlings, and then
we'll have kids pull all the easier seedlings out, and that's kind of how we get rid of it all.
Samantha: What are other things you guys are doing to slow the growth of the mangroves?
Rachelle: Yeah, it's mostly manual there. We don't wanna use herbicides cause that's gonna
get into like you know the fish and things like that yeah there's not really much you can do to
slow the growth other than cutting down manually the other trees.

Chloe Kido
Chloe: Do you guys work with like any wildlife conservation or like other people who save
endangered species? In relation to mangroves?
Rachelle: Umm I’m not too sure. Wildlife conservation organizations specifically I'm not too
sure like you said, I’m like the newer employee here. We’ve worked with like sustainable
coastlines, they kind of just help us do mangrove removal and stuff too. Or there’s like a
monk seal organization, but I can’t remember their name. But yeah, not any major ones that I
can think of off the top of my head who come here like every year.

Chloe: For someone who has first-hand experience with working with mangroves, how have
they affected the land?
Rachelle: So yeah, they’ve totally the composition of the area that they’re in. Just because of
why they were put here, the purpose of, so like this didn’t use to be all soil and sediment, it
used to be water. It was like a wetland and so its drastically changed the environment in
general, just to have soil where there shouldn’t be soil and it’s also not productive soil, it’s
not stuff you can grow like fruits and food and that kind of things. So drastically yeah.

Chloe: What’s the time in between removal events, and do you know how fast mangroves
grow in like certain areas?
Rachelle: Yeah, so when they seed, when they become established as a seedling, they can
grow 3-5 feet within the first year. So, it’s really really fast. Those trees that we saw in the
back, are a hundred years old, almost a hundred years old. So, it’s kind of like the timeframe
of their growing pattern. They can grow really quickly in the beginning when they establish
themselves. *points to some mangroves by us* Those are probably one or two years old,
those shorter bushes.

Chloe: Is there any other thing people can do besides only volunteering here? Like maybe
how bystanders can possibly help a small part of this mangrove issue?
Rachelle: That’s a hard question. I think it mostly has to do with education, like maybe if you
can turn it into something. Like if you can an invasive and turn it into something useful.
“Ai’i’kameaaloua” Eat what you have, use what you have. If you can somehow turn that
wood into something or make it a commodity that people will take. We've had people who
give furniture form mangrove. You can use it in emu wood, so you know there’s some
cultural things you can do with it. But for the most part it’s really hard to use that “bigger”
useable wood because it’s really heavy to take out, the places where they grow is really
marshy. You know you sink, you’ve all done it. But yeah, I mean, it only takes a couple
introductions for them to spread, and you don’t really know how to deal with it after that
cause they grow rapid.

Chloe: Do you know about the different types of mangroves?

Rachelle: I believe there’s two here, one is kupuna’o’kala the red one and I think the other
one they call it white mangrove. But yeah, those are the only two and the red one grows
straight up and down and the another one grows every way.

Chloe: Do they have different kinds of effects on the environment because of their species?
Rachelle: I don’t know if it’s because of their species, yeah I;m not sure about that. But I do
know that mangrove has this thing where the leaves will decompose in the ground. And then
they’ll make it more acidic. I think the word is allelopathic, and it makes it easier for their
keiki (offspring) to grow versus other things.

Malia Provencio
Q: “Are there any general misconceptions about the Red Mangroves your want to clarify?”
A: “The Red Mangroves… So I think that’s the one is what you guys call ‘Kukuna Ocala’.
Some people use it in lei and you can use Mangrove, like the trunks of the trees for
whatever wood work projects. But yeah, I'm not too sure even things are around them. But
yeah, they're just like the straight ones that are up and down. Hawaiians have given it a
name and use them in lei making. But I'm not personally too sure about what those
misconceptions are? We get rid of them altogether.” (Rachelle Tom).

Q: “How long would your say it takes to clear a couple feet of Mangrove?”
A: “Umm…Well if it was like when you guys were doing it and they were seedlings. It would
take, like with your guys like ten minutes to clear a couple feet of seedlings. If it's a tree, it'll
take way longer. It’ll take a lot of like, figuring out what to cut and how to cut it, if that
makes scene. A lot of work goes into taking down each tree because of the way they grow.
They have all these prop roots that come out so, it doesn't ensure that the tree will fall. You
know, like one direction or another. They’re shaped so weird, so it makes it really dangerous
for wheever is trying to clear it. So yeah, it could take like three minutes…Like logistically
think about that, but just a couple feet is really easy.” (Rachelle Tom).

Q: “If it's not for organizations like this how bad do your think the Red Mangroves would
have gotten? “
A: “They probably would have covered the costs. I think they have already covered the
coastline and I mean yeah, a lot of places are on this side of the island are covered in
Mangrove. Most fish ponds across the state… Like a lot of fish ponds across the Piana are
like deeling with Mangrove so it an issue. So like… have you ever been to Pearl Harbor. The
Pearl Harbor side they have fish ponds that there trying to restore to now, the whole thing is
all Mangroves. So it's like every.” (Rachelle Tom).

Q: “How many hours would you say you have dedicated here?”
A: “That’s a good question…I'm don’t know how to do the math? I think like… we would
work on Mangroves two or three times a week. And like.. I don’t know three? Of those days,
three at least three hours of each of those days is dedicated to Mangroves or burning
Mangroves. So like I don't know…? I’ve been working here for like two years now… So yeah,
I'm full time. I work here five days a week so that much…?” (Rachelle Tom).

Interview 2 with Hi’ilei Kawelo

Samantha Guo
Samantha: So my first question is how was the how was the mangroves introduced.
Hi’ilei Kawelo: Actually, mangrove, I found a paper, there was fifteen species that was
introduced when they were introduced. But to Oahu, they were introduced in 1922 they were
first introduced to Molokai in 1900 but then following here in 1922. Yeah, and it was
introduced by the Hawaiian Sugar Growers Association. They activitaly planted the seedings.
So that it could mediate sediment run off dur to intensive agriculture back then.

Samantha: So because of the pandemic going on, do you think it has like he think it has a
positive or A negative effect on.
Hi’ilei Kawelo: The pandemic or mangrove
Samantha: The pandemic going on
Hi’ilei Kawelo: I mean I think the pandemic initially, like when it first started and everything
was shut down, I think that worked wonders for the environment because people weren't out
and utilizing resources you know. Tourism wasn’t overrunning and our beaches, and our
Kaneohe Bay, and so it actually gave the environment a good amount of time to rest and
recover. So that was nice while it lasted but in terms of the pandemic for our organization, we
didn’t have any volunteers or school group for quite some time and when we did it was just
so few and far between that you saw what happened weeds overgrow and the kind of tasks
that we rely heavily on volunteers helping us with. Didn’t have the volunteers to help us with
those projects so weeds grows, rubbish gets piled up, and it just gets ahead of us, so it's nice
to have volunteers back to help us with those jobs we don’t really want to do with a staff of
eight you know how many hands make light work right so that’s what volunteer help really
helps us in that way you know gets a lot of the little menial tasks like weeding pulling
seedlings volunteers are really helpful for those kind of things.
Samantha: So, should we let nature fix itself?
Hi’ilei Kawelo: No because I don’t think nature will fix itself. Because the reason why nature
needs fixing is because of humans. So, I think that humans are responsible for fixing the
things that nature can't fix itself. Like today we were pulling all kinds of weeds and he had
native species in there but if we didn't pull the invasive weedy things then they would
eventually overtake and overrun and out-compete the Native species. So, I do think that in
certain places where human impact has caused the degradation so I think it's important for
humans to rectify those things and maybe get to a point to where we can step away.

Samantha: So what are other things we can do to prevent the spread of mangroves.
Hi’ilei Kawelo: Well, I think there is a good number of us removing mangroves. I do see
when you go to certain restaurant like Korean restaurants see they have mangrove in like
little ornamental planters it's like a decorative piece I actually know for a fact because I saw it
a Koolau Farmers they actually sell mangrove that way in like a little planter arrangement so
I think that’s something we can simply do is to prevent the sale of invasive species at the
nurseries. It's like the same thing as aquarium fish like those that sell invasive species at the
pet store and then what happens when you're done with your pets you dump it into the
stream, and it becomes an issue. So, I think that’s something you can do but I think as beach
goes and you're swimming in the ocean and you see a mangrove porbeagle float by you can
just easily break it break it in half, so it isn't viable when it reaches the shoreline

Samantha: So, if an invasive species is the problem can we introduce a predator to help fix
that?
Hi’ilei Kawelo: That’s called biocontrol and there is a lot of instances where biocontrol has
worked and there are a lot of instances where biocontrol hasn’t worked. For example, the
mongooses was introduced to get rid of the rats and so now you go rats as an invasive species
and mongooses as an invasive species both problem in and on themselves another one was
cats that’s the next invasive species gonna, that could potentially migrate into our forests
right so I think biocontrol could work in certain instances, but I think it needs to be really
really researched before something like that is done you might have great intentions like
mangroves the people who introduced mangroves had great intentions, they wanted to
mitigate sediment runoff. The people who introduced Albizia had great intentions, but you
never know right what your great intention could you know in fifty to a hundred be the next
big invasive species so I'm not a big fan of biocontrol.

Chloe Kido
Chloe: Have mangroves been causing issues like regarding waterways, coastal areas,
wetlands?
Hi’ilei Kawelo: Yeah, I mean I know of a bunch of waterways up the coast, when you head
north, that- you know we’re lucky in He’eia, we’ve been clearing mangrove in the fishpond,
across the street, they’re clearing mangrove as part of Kāko'o‘Ōiwi, another organization. But
elsewhere they’re not clearing mangrove, you’ll see the mangrove just continues to grow.
And then the problem is when you have a flood right? When you have a flood, all the
vegetation and buildup Mauka of the mangrove gets clogged in the mangrove roots and that
affects the waters ability to get out and go into the ocean right? And so that backup what
creates flooding, so as implications for communities and residents, if they live in lowline
areas. I think maintaining the waterway’s important, maybe you don’t clear it completely of
mangrove, but at least you’re clearing the waterway. That would be, I think something that
we could recommend to other companies up north.
Chloe: How do mangroves multiply fast, like what affects their growth rate and lifespan?
Hi’ilei Kawelo: I don’t know, I think it likes shallow areas, so the shallower the area, then I
think the faster the mangroves can root. Yeah, you know from a small mangrove seedling like
that, you know in three years' time it’s going to be a tree, you know a six-foot tree. Yeah, I
mean just like it’s a plant so just like anything else right, needs sunlight and water. But
mangroves can survive in brackish water systems and areas where it’s completely saltwater.
But it does need like a shallow enough depth for those prop peals to take root.

Chloe: Do you guys work with like any wildlife conservation or like other people who save
endangered species? In relation to mangroves?
Hi’ilei Kawelo: Indirectly we do, I mean we know a lot of folks that work for different
government agencies and other non-profits. But no, we haven’t really collaborated like with
any folks, I would say one is the National Estuary Research Reserve, it’s called NERRS. It’s
the He’eia NERRS it was designated a few years ago. But they help us and provide funding,
and they kind of support our efforts. But not too many people like tell us what to do, how to
do it. We kind of come up with solutions on our own, just having done the work for the past
20 years, we feel like we know our place the best.
That’s pretty basic too you know clear the mangrove, let the natives grow, grow fish, grow
people.

Chloe: Do you know about the different types of mangroves? Like do different types of
mangroves have different effects on the environment?
Hi’ilei Kawelo: I don’t know, I don’t know that. I do know that mangroves in general have
something in their bark called “tanins” or tannic acid. So, like you can use it for a dye, you
can use the bark to make a dye. Like I've seen YouTube videos on it where, it’s a natural dye
and it’s also somewhat water resistant. So, people make dyes with it, but it’s also a weed
suppressant. Like if you were to lay down a bunch of chips of mangrove, it pretty much
couldn’t allow other plants to grow through it because of that tannic acid. So, I don’t know if
that tells anything, but yeah not too familiar with the other species of mangrove other than the
red mangrove, the white mangrove, which is the oriental mangrove, and then there’s another
species called button mangrove that we used to have here, but we’ve since removed it.
Chloe: Are you guys focusing on removing mangrove seeds or older mangroves?
Hi’ilei Kawelo: I would say the older growth, because right, that mature tree is what seeds the
pond. So, if we can remove the mature trees, then we can stop the repopulation of the
mangroves. I mean you’ve seen it, right? The place where there’s all the seedlings is because
we have all those mature trees still up there that are just constantly reproducing and
propagating. So, until all of those mature trees are gone, we’re always gonna have to pull
seedlings

Malia Provencio
Q: “What are some reasons why red mangoes are helpful in other regions but not
Hawaii?”
A: “Whelp Red Mangrove is native to the Gulf of Mexico. So all of the states and countries,
kind of surround the Gulf. So like South America, Texas, and Florida. All those places, that's
were Red Mangrove is native to. There are entire ecosystems that have evolved to go alone
with that species. Just like here, we have entire… we have native birds, we have native
insects that have evolved to live alongside and working on in our Ohia and Koa…and our
keystone native forests. But yeah… you know…you introduce something to Hawaii were it
doesn't have naturally occurring predators, or thongs to keep it in check. Than yea… That's
when it becomes an invasive species, right? But yeah. Elsewhere in the world I've met
people in places like Cohen and Indonesia or you know like Palau and Yap. There's like 100
Papua New Guinea where there's like hundreds of species of Mangrove… and it's all native
to that country. And in those places, their actively protected and they are laws goes places
they're actively protected and there's laws to prevent cutting down our utilization of those
species. So those are examples to places where they belong.” (Hi’ilei Kawelo).

Q: “If not for organizations like this how bad would the infestation of Mangrove been?”

A: “Um…It was pretty terrible, the entire fishpond was covered in Mangrove so bad you
couldn't even see the like you couldn't see the horizon. It probably without people being
here at the fish pond, and left to continue to grow probably the entire fish pond would be
filled In with Mangrove and sediment. And then wouldn't even have watery environment.
We wouldn't have been able to fish and that would have implications on the structural
integrity or the wall itself. I think that the fishpond would have…You know, give it another
year. If our organization hadn’t been here, the entire fishpond would have been gone.”
(Hi’ilei Kawelo).

Q: “How many hours would you say you have dedicated here?”
A: “Umm…I’ve’ big here 23 to 24 years. But maybe like if you start the clock 20 years
because that’s when I started working here. Multiply by that conservatively 40 hours a week
20 years. I don’t know your guys do the math.” (Hi’ilei Kawelo).

Q: “How long will you say it takes to clear a couple feet of mangrove?”
A: “A couple of feet?” “Or a patch per say?” “It Depends, is it a tree or a seedling? Your
know, a pretty small patch of Mangrove today maybe it was five by ten that first patch
cleared. And there were made ten working on that one patch took us about half an hour.
You know like versus… like if it's a tree a full-blown size you're gonna have maybe two to
three trees, in that same get a chainsaw cut it down. Pretty quick to clear it but then you
have to process all that. Buck up all of the trees, then you have to burn it. So, it takes time, I
think it's much easier to clear a patch of seedlings than it is to clear and feel two to three
trees.” (Hi’ilei Kawelo).

Q: “What would you say is your plan for future for the fishpond?”
A: “To grow fish. Yeah, where already doing it so there are already fish in the fishpond but
this is a matter of redirecting our focus. Once restoration is done than we can focus
hopefully shifting the focus or growing fish, harvesting them, stalking the pond with fish. But
I mean you know you still have to cut grass if you don't even when restoration is done. Yeah,
the work is never ending.” (Hi’ilei Kawelo).