Informant Interview

The contents of this interview are strictly confidential. Interviewee is under strict NDA

Key Takeaways
It’s hard to report an incident until it directly involves you
People are scared of the repercussions on themselves and rely on upper management to
hand a situation
Upper management may not always appoint a person who is qualified or unbiased
Companies often have their own interests in mind, and will not protect individuals
Rumors, intimidation, and bullying deter people from reporting

Realistically, we can’t guarantee that informants will be protected by the company, or that
their report will be handled appropriately. We should aim to empower informants and give
them back control of their report in these situations

Feature Idea
Thinking more in depth about allowing informants to create “digital paper trails”
A personal space for the informant to log incidents, upload files, collate evidence.
Allowing informants to sort their evidence into a timeline.
Give the user more control by allowing them to choose when and what they share with their
employer
Allowing the informant store information that they can potentially use in a legal battle
Current forms created and shared by the company might not be relevant to what the
informant wants to report

Future Interviews
Sally has said she would like to be involved in future product testing
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Demographic Questions

Name Sally McDow

Age:

Gender:

Place of Work (incident occured) Origin Energy

Role 2nd in charge for Compliance

Time at Role 4.5 years

Based in Brisbane

Current Role

Research Questions - Did Report

Describe your role at the 3 major divisions

workplace the incident occured
Geographically spread across Australia and
Internationally
Liaise with staff in different divisions to set up
frameworks for compliance with local legilsation

Tell me about the team structure Confusion around changes in structure

(how many in the team, who you
report to, who reports to you)
Reported to Head of Compliance
- a new boss in brisbane

7 people reported to Sally

20 people reporting to them

Tell me about the incident that Orign had been having oor culture and practice
you reported (only as much
detail as they are comfortable
going on for years and years
with)
Had heard about and discussed issues with up to
100 colleagues

Numerous people in the company had tried to fix

things without success

Sallys previous 2 bosses, had tried to raise the

issues and been terminated
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When and Why did you decide
to report the incident
Sally though her new boss ( who had previous good
rapport with sally) disagreed with alot of company
practice and might do something about it
It was know the company was falsifying documents
and faking things for a long time
- Over 20 years of incidents
Multiple people who had raised issues it “didn’t turn
out well for”
She knew if she questioned things it wouldn’t end up
well for herself
Originally she had no intention of ever being a
whistleblower
She had tried to negotiate and fix issues through
formal channels and by reporting to her bosses
Initially she thought she was having success, and
would hear positive feedback. Then later be told its
being put off, or can’t be addressed yet
It all came to a head when she was asked by her
boss to falsify documents for investors and auditors
Sally refused to do so and her immediate boss said if
you “if you’re not on the bus, you’re off the bus” and
threatened her with termination
After that she decided whistleblow to protect herself
and she was at a high risk of getting fired anyway
because of the refusal to falsify documents
She had seen it happening for years (false
documentation), but it had always been someone
else's accountability
She witnessed lots of terrible things, and seen other
employees being treated horribly, badmouthed, etc
so she initially never wanted to be involved, and did
not report anything earlier
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Who did you report the incident
to ( i.e. manager, HR )
Maybe would have never been a Whistleblower, she
would not have done it if her job wasn’t on the line
Felt she was doing the right thing by initially trying to
work with management to fix things and going
through offical channels and making formal reports
When she made a report she felt like they where
“leading her down the garden path”, there was initial
agreement to fixing company issues but then
dragging it out and never working towards a real
resolution
Initially told her bosses boss - Chief Risk Officer
He was based in adelaide, had fairly regular contact
with him already
He was always hard to get a hold of, so she sent him
an email.
He was “a bit of salesmen”, would say what you
wanted to hear, but wouldn’t back it up with action
She got the sense that he wasn’t going to take it
seriously -“ he was a fool”
“Schmoozer” - Qualified as a primary school teacher,
And some how worked his way up to a powerful
position
Charismatic, handsome, could present well but not
actually that smart
He was “like an actor”, “it was all a show”
His response sounded phony, “my alarm bells went
off”
He appointed someone from HR to look into her
allegations, but the scope of the review was all
wrong
HR case manager appointed was a cousin of
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someone who the allegations were against so there

was immediate family conflict
This person was asked to review whether the issues
where accurate or not

These issues Sally reported were legislative issues

which were written by experts saying company was
doing the wrong thing and breaking the law

The HR appointed had no technical, legal or

engineering background - and was not qualified to
assess these allegations

“From process perspective, this person cant review

this”

Sally was Interviewed by that HR person

This is when Sally “sniffed a rat” that this would go
badly

HR came back with their findings saying these

issues in the allegations were not breaches

After that:
Sally was concerned that things were way off track
with this initial interaction

Sally made a whistleblower report to the CEO and

Directors

Report was sent via an email and was not

anonymous
She gave a summary of the situation and said she
was willing to provide evidence - no evidence
included in the initial email
Investigations where launched
These “phony” investigations went on for over a
month

Her boss was irrational and abusive after that,

throwing things at walls, screaming, etc
This boss knew sally complained about being
threatened with termination by her
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No confidentiality was kept, and her whole team

knew Sally had made the report

Sally looked into corps act, knew that so had to do

certain things, and figured out what parts of the
company was in breach of the corporations act,

After her Whistleblowing email

The investigation went on for months - sally was still
working at the company

Ended up moving department because of abuse

from her boss
She was assigned a new project by CRO, moved to
a new office, but there was no project, nothing for
her to do, and was isolated.

The company launched 2 or 3 different

investigations, none where connected

Sally kept asking what was being investigate, and

chasing them up from progress and feedback.
They kept putting her forward to different “fools”

Felt as though they were making it up as they were

going along

She works in compliance so she knew their

Investigation strategies were not meeting compliance

She was asked to participate in some investigations,

and interviews.
They were “parading her around publicly”, making
her go in glass meeting rooms in view of up to 200
people

Within in 5 mins of leaving those meeting she would

have 20 text messages asking her about rumors they
were hearing

Employees were told if they were interviewed to

protect the company,
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She kept emailing the chairman and CEO, “is this

how to treat whistleblowers”, “ive tried to do the right
thing”, “please get involved and help me”.

At least one internal investigation

One external investigation by and an “Expert

Consultant”
- He also related to one of the key persons the
allegations where against
“He was fool who wore a cowboy hat”

Sally took a recording device - a professional tape

recorder to her meetings with him and gettranscript
typed up of meetings for evidence

He would say things like

- women are emotional which makes them
struggle in the workplace
- it was too much for women to handle
- Women should sew and bake

She got the impression that he had no actual

qualifications
The whole thing was bogus

Colleagues were informed but the company about

the external expert consultant coming to speak to
them. They were told not to speak to him or be
deemed a whistleblower, and after witnessing how
sally was treated, people were too afraid to speak
out

Sally got her own lawyers to challenge these

investigations

Lawyers sent clear evidence of breaches to CEOs,

showing that the company is not complying with their
legal obligations

External Consultants findings said the company has

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never not complied with all its legal requirements

Sally said this was a blatant lie as there were many
previous breaches already on record

Company ended up emailing Sally saying that

nothing would be done, and that her allegations
about falsifying documents, and other breaches in
legislation are unsubstantiated

A few days after that she was made redundant

Within weeks she had been replaced, and a new
person was put in the same position

“Under the law, redundancy is easy to fake behind

the scenes”

Sally took Origin to court,

Sued them using the (old) corporations act
- The act says whistleblowers should be
protected and company is liable for the
employees losses as a result of
whistleblowing

Also sued for unfair dismissal

“I would have been happy to stay there”,

one of the few women in a leadership position, on
track to become one of the only female executives

She was in the top 2% of women in the company

A good performer with great results

“You’ve destroyed my career and reputation”

“It got out across australia, It was so widespread “

People would ask her about it, saying “Oh i heard
you’re a whistleblower”

It was so widespread even before it was in the press

“Word was out”
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When she started trying to get a new job recruiters

said it would be hard for her to get a job

For her role, your reputaion is built on the ability to

be confidential and keep company secrets
Was told to go back to being a lawyer

Being a woman contributed to being treated poorly

Rampant sexism within the company as a whole

Worked overseas for 15 years

First day in the office at a new role, collegues would
say “come on love, get us a coffee”
- she was a in a senior role
- whole groups of men, “oh watch out we got a
feminist, bet she doesn’t shave legs”
- A few weeks later another girl hired - she was
“big” Men saying they “should only hire hot
chicks”
“This is actually how they would talk in a team
meeting”

Sally would clap back at them - being in a senior

position gave her confidence
“I can hold my own”
“I wasn’t afraid”

Press - never went to the press herself

Filing the state of claim, after that it becomes public
record

A journalist from The Australian would check court

files regularly, who did the initial reports in the press

Only press interview she did was with Adele

ferguson

Talking to press would br breaching her

confidentiality agreement
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“I’m a very private person”

“I didn’t want publicity”
Her daughter was hearing about it at school, coming
home with questions

Court Case:
Sally had very powerful evidence from experts
Something “snapped” in her about taking them on

2 of her previous bosses before had their reputations

tarnished for speaking out
One that she spoke to told her, h couldnt get a job,
started living in a basement apartment

She didn’t want that to happen to her

Having kids changed things, made her more willing
to fight
“Maybe if I didn't have kids, I would have never done
it”

It personally cost her $200,000 to start the claim

$50,000 up front to the lawyers

After spending $200,000 she ran out of money and

lawyers agreed to continue the case and take
payment from the settlement
Total of just under 1 million in legal fees

She now gets calls from other people asking for

advice, saying they are a victim or want to
whistleblow.

“How can a person whistleblow without money”

Especially against a billion dollar corporation

During her court case

Corporation kept delaying things, asking for
unnecessary reviews, trying to drive up the cost
They know they can win with money by dragging out,
sending the individual broke

18 months total in court

Settled out of court
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Adele Ferguson (journalist) wrote some stories about

the case on the front page of SMH
That pressure from the media made them settle

If there was no exposure in the media, it could have

kept going, so they wear you down until you give up

Statistics are people, don't sue because of money

Unfair dismissal is easier to dispute because there is

a tribunal

With corp act - even in the new one, there is no

tribunal
Onus is on yourself to sue the company with your
own money
Majority of people don’t have the money

Ultimately it was good that it went to he press

because it helped with the settlement

Sally now works in whistleblowing

Got a good settlement so didn’t work for a while

Involved in the whistle blowing industry - Has now

separated the emotion form the incident

If report wasnt anon: Would you If reported anon -

have preferred to remain anon
It would have helped initially, eventually could've
been identified by what was being alleged

Having anon system in place would have helped with

getting her to report much earlier, when first
witnessing the issues,

Maybe more people would have come forward

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How did you feel about the There was no transparency, no feedback, “no
amount of transparency / dialog
while the case was being
process to keep me informed”
managed
They were updating other staff through the staff
intranet which spurred rumors

What was the result / resolution

of your report

How did you feel about how it

was resolved

Did you ever have to partake in

a discussion or meeting about
the incident that you felt
uncomfortable doing

What was the hardest part about

the experience

Do you feel there where any

positive or negative
repercussions as a result of your
report

How were you collecting and keeping evidence?

“It was a challange”

Notes from meetings, reports from legislation

experts, images of illegal activity
Stored on laptop, putting on usb sticks, i hard putting
it all into one area

“A digital paper trail would have been amazing”

Looking back would’ve started sending emails earlier

to start an activity log

Would have brought it all up years earlier if it could

have been anonymous

Origin now -
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“Still up to their evil ways”

CEO had to leave because of the incident

From what she hears

- Head of legal was at the heart of all of this
- He’s still there, “running his regime”

They have a few new policies in place but the culture

has not caught up

A couple of whistleblowers came forward post case,

who were treated terribly by the company.
Sally helped them with legal aspects

From what's been heard anecdotally

“It’s a bit depressing to hear that nothing much had
changed”

“You have to have evidence”

“If i knew i had a Whispli channel to anonymously

report or log evidence, I would have done so years
ago”

People make financial commitments, and you can’t

afford to lose your job - This makes it hard to
whistleblow, there is no tribunal, your family's
livelihood is on the line

Everyone at Origin was in the boat of ‘i wish i could

say something but the personal risk isn't worth it’

Sally would like to be involved for future product

testing
Informant Interview