Please Explain The Principle of Weak InFeed Echo Permissive Over Reach Transfer Trip Schemes - Valence Electrical Training Services

10/30/23, 2:51 PM Please Explain the Principle of Weak InFeed Echo Permissive Over Reach Transfer Trip Schemes?
Schemes? • Valence Electrical Training …
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Please Explain the Principle of Weak

InFeed Echo Permissive Over Reach
Transfer Trip Schemes?
Rahim submitted this question to the Ask Chris section of the
RelayTraining.com website.
Most line distance protection schemes assume that the system will always
be able to supply enough amps to make the relays trip. However, there are
many scenarios on transmission systems across the world where you could
have a strong source on one end of a transmission line with a weak source
on the other, and this configuration could prevent the protective relay(s)
from operating the way we would expect them to.
The scenario that is easiest to understand, and explain, occurs when we

connect a generating plant, or generator, to the transmission system. The
drawing below shows this scenario with the generator breaker open and a
fault on the transmission line close to BKR1.
https://relaytraining.com/please-explain-principle-weak-infeed-echo-permissive-reach-transfer-trip-schemes/ 1/26
10/30/23, 2:51 PM Please Explain the Principle of Weak InFeed Echo Permissive Over Reach Transfer Trip Schemes? • Valence Electrical Training …
If this was a normal system, RLY-2 would:
see a Zone 2 (Z2) fault,
send a Z2 Permissive Trip,
receive the Permissive Trip from the other side, and
open BKR2 after a short time delay.
RLY-1 would:
see a Zone 1 (Z1) and Zone 2 fault,
send a Z2 Permissive Trip, and
open BKR1 instantaneously.
We are simulating a weak infeed from the generator by opening BKR3
which means that RLY-1 does not see the fault and does nothing while
RLY-2 opens BKR2 after the normal time delay for Zone 2. (around 20
cycles)
This is not an ideal situation. There is a fault on the line and BKR1 is still
closed. If we bring the generator up to speed and close the generator
breaker, we will close the generator onto a fault. The fault was also
connected to the system for 20 cycles, which was plenty of time to cause
an unnecessary disruption to the system. We have the technology to do

better, and a Weak Infeed protection scheme can open BKR1 when a fault
occurs on the line, and speed up the trip time of BKR2.
We need RLY-1 to recognize that there is a fault on the line, even if the
generator breaker is open. Fortunately, there are numerous ways for relays
to communicate information about a fault. The first method uses the

generator breaker’s (BKR3) 52a contact. We know that the left side of the
circuit in our example is guaranteed to be weak if BKR3 is open, so we can
create an “Echo” permissive signal that sends a permissive trip to RLY-2

when RLY-1 receives a permissive AND the generator breaker is open as
shown in the drawing below.
The fault hasn’t changed since the first example, but both breakers opened
after a very short time delay with the new Weak Infeed logic. In this
scenario, RLY-2 would:
see a Zone 2 fault, and
send a Z2 Permissive Trip.
RLY-1 would:
receive the Permissive Trip from the other side,
see that BRK3 is open,
send a permissive Echo to RLY-2, and
open BKR1 based on the Weak Infeed logic.
RLY-2 would:
receive a permissive echo from RLY-1,
still see Zone-2, and
then open BRK2 based on a permissive trip instead of waiting for the
Zone-2 time delay.
This system works great when BKR-3 is open, but generators typically do
not have a lot of fault capacity compared to the system. The generator side
could still be considered weak when the breaker is closed because of its
relatively weak ability to contribute to a fault. We would be right back at
square one if this was the only aspect of Weak Infeed protection schemes,
and the generator breaker was closed.
Generator protection schemes can’t use traditional inverse time overcurrent

(51) protection because generators can’t produce enough fault current to
make them effective. Some generator relays do use modified 51-elements
for system backup protection by applying what we’ve learned about faults
over the last 100 years or so. Everyone knows that a fault will cause the
measured current to increase in proportion to the severity of the fault, but
that doesn’t happen in isolation. The faulted voltage is also affected.
What happens to the faulted voltage during a fault?
The faulted voltage will decrease. The actual fault voltage will be
proportional to the distance from the potential transformers (PTs) the relay
uses to measure the system voltage. The fault voltage will be zero if the
fault is on top of the PTs, and will grow as the fault gets farther away.
Therefore, we can set an undervoltage element to operate if the voltage
drops enough to signal a fault that is closer to the weak side. That
undervoltage can be added to the Weak Infeed logic as shown below.
The fault hasn’t changed since the first example, but both breakers opened
after a very short time delay with the new Weak Infeed logic even though
the generator breaker is now closed. In this scenario, RLY-2 would:
see a Zone 2 fault, and
send a Z2 Permissive Trip,
RLY-1 would:
receive the Permissive Trip from the other side,
recognize that a fault is on the line because the Undervoltage (27)

element operated,
send a permissive Echo to RLY-2, and
open BKR1 based on the Weak Infeed logic.
RLY-2 would:
receive a permissive echo from RLY-1,
still see Zone-2, and
then open BRK2 based on a Permissive trip.
We now have a flexible solution, but have introduced a new problem. What
will happen if the fault is on the generator side?
BKR1 and BKR2 would both operate because none of the conditions in our
Weak Infeed logic have changed. We need a way to block the infeed logic
when the fault is not on the protected transmission line. Can RLY-1 tell
whether the fault is on the line, or behind RLY-1 near the generator?
The Zone-3 protection element is set to detect faults behind the relay, and
we need to add it to the Weak Infeed protection scheme to prevent the
Echo signal from being sent if the fault is behind the relay as shown in the
following diagram.
In this scenario, all of the previously described components are in place,

which means the Weak Infeed logic would normally send an Echo signal,
but the relay’s Zone-3 element has picked up and prevented the Echo
permissive from being sent. This new piece to our logic scheme now
prevents the Weak Infeed scheme from operating for faults that are not on
the transmission line. Some engineers try to make it even more secure by
adding a Zone-2 block for Weak Infeed logic as well.
If we move the fault back onto the line, Zone-3 does not pickup and the
Weak Infeed Echo protection scheme works normally.
These are the basic essentials of Weak Infeed Echo Permissive Protection
schemes. I hope I was able to answer Rahim’s question adequately.
Please feel free to comment below if you have more questions about this
scheme, or have something new to add.
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About the Author

Chris Werstiuk
Chris is an Electrical Engineering Technologist, a Journeyman

Power System Electrician, and a Professional Engineer. He is
also the Author of The Relay Testing Handbook series and
founder of Valence Electrical Training Services. You can find
out more about Chris here.
Read More Articles:
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Post Comment
Vivek Siddarth Kalyanasundaram

May 23, 2015 at 12:02 pm
This Explanation was usefull, that made me understand the POTT

and Echo POTT thoroughly.. Thanks for this beautiful explanation
Reply
William Madzikanda
July 25, 2015 at 6:42 am
That is a brilliant explanation and the protection scheme diagrams are

very good. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Reply
shafie
November 19, 2016 at 11:59 am
your excellent answer is very appreciated , thank you for this effort
Reply
Nagoor
October 26, 2017 at 7:29 am
I understood the PUTT scheme clearly although POTT scheme is
confusing little.
When we have to select POTT scheme instead of PUTT scheme.
Why PUTT scheme send Z2 pickup to remote end while local breaker
is tripped by Zone-1 pickup.
Reply
Chris Werstiuk
Thanks for the comment.
PUTT schemes share Zone 1 and Zone 2 information back and

forth as described here PUTT Scheme video
POTT Schemes share Zone 2 information as shown at the end of t
his video
The scheme in this article uses a POTT scheme.
Reply
Diego
December 7, 2017 at 4:57 pm
Hi, thanks for the explanation. If the fault is located near to the highest
infeed, how is going to work Pott with the weak infeed principle? And
how it work the underreaching with extended zone scheme with the
weak infeed principle? Thanks you and sorry for the grammatical
mistakes, I’m still learning English.
Reply
hassan
May 6, 2018 at 5:31 pm
Thanks for the clear explanation. It fully explains the principle.
Reply
Hassan
June 18, 2018 at 7:07 pm
very helpful explanation. You fully and clearly described

different types of pilot schemes. thank you for the effort
Reply
Chris Werstiuk
June 19, 2018 at 5:22 pm
Thanks!
Reply
MAHMOUD Elkassas
August 8, 2018 at 3:28 pm
Very Very thanks for your

I hope more meeting at your web
Reply
Bayo
August 27, 2018 at 5:08 am
Thank you Mr Chris for a this simple and clear presentation of this
subject matter. Kudos to you once again.
Reply
sha farhang
June 2, 2020 at 11:35 am
Very useful, diagrams are clear, Thanks
Reply
VASUDEVAN
July 29, 2020 at 5:12 am
If fault occurs between Generator and Breaker 3 reverse looking
element Zone 3 is picked up which blocks echo trip being sent back to
strong source Breaker 2 and trip will not take place. Please send
modified diagram. S.Vasudevan 9840229620 Ex. ABB Site Manager

and Testing and Commissioning engineer with 52 years service
Reply
Chris Werstiuk
July 29, 2020 at 7:49 am
Thanks for your comment, but I do not know what you are referring
to. Can you be more specific.
Reply
VASUDEVAN
July 30, 2020 at 5:51 am
It is assumed that Generator protection works to trip Breaker 3

and current is zero and no trip of breaker 1 or 2.
Reply
Chris Werstiuk
July 31, 2020 at 7:50 am
Please quote the exact part of the post you don’t agree with
and why you don’t agree.
Reply
Joe
June 30, 2021 at 6:28 am
If a fault occurs between the Generator and Breaker 3 as you

suggest, you are correct in that the Zone 3 of Relay 1 will see this in
the reverse direction and block a “Weak infeed echo”.

This is what is suppose to happen, as the fault is in the Generator
zone of protection, and we do not want relay 2 to accelerate its Z2

timer for a fault outside the line zone.
If the Generator protection then fails to clear this fault by opening

CB3, then relay 2’s Zone 2 timer (20 cycles) times out and clears the
fault.
The I/T receive at Relay 2 simply accelerates a Zone 2 for a genuine

in zone line fault (POTT Scheme).
The lack of an I/T receive does not restrict Relay 2 Zone 2 element
from operating normally.
Reply
Luis Felipe Ortiz

July 30, 2021 at 12:12 pm
This is very high knowledge applied to POTT Schemes; thank you so
much for sharing it!
Reply
Chris Werstiuk
July 31, 2021 at 8:44 pm
Thanks for the kind words.
Reply
Hà Nguyễn
Thank you so much for creating this explanation.
Reply
Hà Nguyễn
October 14, 2022 at 8:34 pm
Can I ask you two questions?
First, why if a fault near the BKR1 then RLY-1 is not pick up? Whether
50 elements are not enough current to pick up (i.e., 50FP setting of
SEL421 relay)?
Secondly, what happens if BKR3, BKR4 trip while BKR1 is still open
other than BKR2 trip with delay time 20 cycles?

Many thanks.
Reply
Chris Werstiuk
October 15, 2022 at 2:09 pm
There is no current flow in Circuit Breaker 1. BKR3 is open.
The other two breakers should only trip for faults in their zone of
protection or as backup protection for 1 & 2 if they fail to clear the
fault.
Reply
Witness
January 25, 2023 at 6:18 am
Can you please explain in the line parameters what does it mean by
CT Star point : towards the line
Reply
Chris Werstiuk
January 25, 2023 at 5:30 pm
It’s a standard for CT connections that you’ll typically find outside of
North America (EU) that means the starpoint of the CT is on the
side of the CT where the protected device lies. North Americans

(NA) typically use some form of “Polarity marks face away from the
protected device” instead because the non-polarity mark sides of

the CTs are usually connected together. Both represent the same
standard connection for CTs connected to a relay.
A generator relay protects a generator, so the relay in the diagram
below is looking for forward current from the neutral to the
generator.
All three connections are correct because any current flowing into
the generator will flow into the odd terminal numbers.
The connection in the middle follows the EU standard because the
starpoint of the CTs is on the protected device side of the CT

(towards the line). The polarity marks also follow the NA standard
because they are on the opposite side. This would be the normal
connection you would see on most drawings and its easy to see
that the current flowing into the generator is also flowing into the
odd terminals on the relay
The first connection on the left is a non-standard connection

because the polarity marks face toward the protected device and
the star point of the CTs is on the opposite side. But it still works
because the CT sides facing away from the generator is connected

to the odd terminal numbers.
The connection on the right follows the EU standard because the

starpoint of the CTs is on the protected device side of the CT
(towards the line). However, the polarity marks are facing towards
the protected device, so this connection does not follow the NA
standard. In the end, it doesn’t matter because the current flowing
into the generator is also flowing into the odd terminals on the relay
and this connection will work fine.
Reply
Al Khattab Al Riyami
March 14, 2023 at 2:01 pm
Very helpful and very clear
Reply
Rakesh SIMHA Vemulapalli

July 18, 2023 at 11:46 am
hey i am finding tough to understand current reversal concept in pott

schemes, my questions are
1. when and why current reversal will occur
Cut
2. how we can avoid hours
them of struggle
in settings offway, what is the
or any other
basic behind currentyour
currentnext testing
reversal job
Reply
Chris Werstiuk
July 19, 2023 at 7:34 am
This video may help answer your questions.

Download our free Relay
Testing Flow-Chart and
https://relaytraining.com/understanding-permissive-over-reaching-tr
learn an exact step-by-step
process to plan and test any
ansfer-trip-pott-communication-assisted-trip-schemes-video/
digital relay, FAST.
Reply
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Please Explain The Principle of Weak InFeed Echo Permissive Over Reach Transfer Trip Schemes - Valence Electrical Training Services

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10/30/23, 2:51 PM Please Explain the Principle of Weak InFeed Echo Permissive Over Reach Transfer Trip Schemes?

Schemes? • Valence Electrical Training …

Home / Blog / Please Explain the Principle …

Please Explain the Principle of Weak

The scenario that is easiest to understand, and explain, occurs when we

fault on the transmission line close to BKR1.

If this was a normal system, RLY-2 would:

see a Zone 2 (Z2) fault,

send a Z2 Permissive Trip,

receive the Permissive Trip from the other side, and

open BKR2 after a short time delay.

see a Zone 1 (Z1) and Zone 2 fault,

send a Z2 Permissive Trip, and

open BKR1 instantaneously.

We are simulating a weak infeed from the generator by opening BKR3

an unnecessary disruption to the system. We have the technology to do

occurs on the line, and speed up the trip time of BKR2.

to communicate information about a fault. The first method uses the

create an “Echo” permissive signal that sends a permissive trip to RLY-2

scenario, RLY-2 would:

see a Zone 2 fault, and

send a Z2 Permissive Trip.

receive the Permissive Trip from the other side,

see that BRK3 is open,

send a permissive Echo to RLY-2, and

open BKR1 based on the Weak Infeed logic.

receive a permissive echo from RLY-1,

still see Zone-2, and

Generator protection schemes can’t use traditional inverse time overcurrent

What happens to the faulted voltage during a fault?

see a Zone 2 fault, and

send a Z2 Permissive Trip,

receive the Permissive Trip from the other side,

recognize that a fault is on the line because the Undervoltage (27)

send a permissive Echo to RLY-2, and

open BKR1 based on the Weak Infeed logic.

receive a permissive echo from RLY-1,

still see Zone-2, and

then open BRK2 based on a Permissive trip.

In this scenario, all of the previously described components are in place,

Weak Infeed Echo protection scheme works normally.

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About the Author

Chris is an Electrical Engineering Technologist, a Journeyman

Read More Articles:

Methods of Clearing Ground Faults from Silent Sentinels 1924

Valence will be at the NETA PowerTest 2015 Conference in Nashville,

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are

Vivek Siddarth Kalyanasundaram

This Explanation was usefull, that made me understand the POTT

That is a brilliant explanation and the protection scheme diagrams are

I understood the PUTT scheme clearly although POTT scheme is

Thanks for the comment.

PUTT schemes share Zone 1 and Zone 2 information back and

POTT Schemes share Zone 2 information as shown at the end of t

The scheme in this article uses a POTT scheme.

Thanks for the clear explanation. It fully explains the principle.

June 18, 2018 at 7:07 pm

very helpful explanation. You fully and clearly described