What is the evidence demon possession is real and what do exorcisms actually entail

Our Guest today Dr Richard Gallagher is the author of a book called demonic foes is
going to help us think through these issues and more Dr Gallagher you are a board
certified psychiatrist who teaches at Columbia you did your residency at Yale so if
it's okay with you I'm going to jump right in because this topic is so

Serious and important how did you as a medically trained doctor get pulled into the
world of demonic possession well first uh thank you Sean for the invitation I
always tell people um I didn't volunteer and I'm not sure it's actually a
particularly good idea to volunteer for this work uh I'd like to feel was
providential because everything I've done I've been asked to do over the years to
the point where as a physician I have

Probably seen more of these kind of cases then according to my chairman uh than any
any physician in history uh I'm not an exorcist but I was asked about 25 years ago
by a local priest um who somehow got my name I guess because I was a practicing
Christian and I was an academic psychiatrist I was at Cornell Medical College at
the time and he said to me Dr Gallagher would you um please evaluate a case

For me as an exorcist he was a prominent Exorcist in America um I'd like to get a

psychiatric opinion even though I think it's a demonic case and I remember Sean uh
telling him at the time [Music] there was there was a certain amount of what we
called the satanic panic at the time you may remember that period where yeah

Satanists around every corner and I said well father you know I I finished my
training at Yale and quite frankly I'm a little skeptical of a certain amount of
that stuff and he said to me uh with a smirk he said well then you're the perfect
guy for the job because they wanted someone skeptical so over the years since he
and a few other exorcists would send me these cases to evaluate

Uh I was later invited to join the International Association to write articles to

write a book and so everything I've done because really I was asked which I I would
like to feel Sean was a little more providential than if I rushed in Where Angels
feared a tread sure so take us back to that moment where you're asked to consult on
a case maybe it's the first time you saw somebody

That you thought this person is genuinely possessed or experienced in diabolical

attack and how did it affect you well let me digress for a minute even though
there's a lot of confusion about terminology there are people who are possessed
where an evil spirit in my opinion unequivocally it takes over the the body and the
control of the individual and then there are slightly more common although also
rare there are

Things we tend to call in America oppressions uh this first case was an oppression
uh it was a woman who was being beaten up by Spirits she and her husband had
traveled actually a couple of thousand miles to see this Exorcist on the East Coast
and um she would literally feel pummeled even in front of various people like her
friends she would feel pummeled by evil

Spirits while she was in her house and everybody felt very helpless um so I was
asked to you know sort of make sure that this woman was not psychotic or something
um that her story made sense that there wasn't any medical explanation for instance
we did blood tests she had bruises but people can get bruises for different medical
reasons including low platelets that sort of

Thing so I did a medical and psychiatric workout and I said to the priest you know
father uh I can't find any medical or psychiatric reason why this is happening um
the woman appears very sane and very credible so um even though I was a little
skeptical uh father uh your explanation that this is something demonic actually
makes a lot of sense to me and then after that I

Began to evaluate a lot a lot a lot more a lot of other cases including possessions
so let's talk about for a minute if you will how somebody is diagnosed with a demon
possession I know you said you're not an exorcist but you do medical diagnosis
diagnoses so what is that process like and what are the signs where you conclude
this is genuine either possession or oppression in some fashion

Well essentially I'm assisting usually an exorcist I'm assisting The Exorcist in
making the discernment ultimately the I feel strongly that the spiritual clergy
needs to take responsibility for the actual spiritual diagnosis you might say but
these are these are kinds of diagnoses that require a lot of rigor and require a
certain amount of scientific knowledge and sometimes it's it's very very obvious
and a very experienced exorcists

Can often tell fairly quickly uh in America at least in the in in some of the
mainstream churches like the Catholic Church where the Bishops require a medical or
psychiatric evaluation um I get I get involved at that point um but the criteria I
should emphasize are quite rigorous essentially you have to have very clear you
might say phenomenological evidence that there is a foreign entity involved

Now how do you do that well in possessions um you're gonna you're gonna see the
manifestation in different ways of an evil spirit sometimes that spirit will take
over the consciousness of the person will even speak in a slightly different tone
of voice remember they're using the body of the victim so they're actually using
the person's vocal cords they're going to sound a little bit like that but they

Also clearly will seem like it's a foreign personality um now again you have to
make sure the person's not imagining this and has something like dissociative
identity disorder which used to be called multiple personality you have to rule out
things like that let alone psychosis but eventually you often also see or get
reports of seeing signs of um

The lay public calls it to paranormal we would call it the preternatural things
beyond the natural ability of a human being for instance okay the criteria are
speaking of foreign language all of a sudden that the person never never studied
exhibiting you know superhuman strength of some sort I dealt with a woman once who
was possessed and she was being exercised by her Protestant deacon who was kind of
inexperienced and they

Didn't hold her down and when the prayers started she jumped up she took the guy
she was 90 pounds soaking wet he took this 200 pound guy and threw him across the
church Hall that sort of ended things very quickly in that session but that that
strength was obviously beyond the human and then a third major criteria they call
in Latin latra l-a-e-t-r-a it's sort of the revelation of hidden knowledge that the
person

Would have no reason for believing one of the most dramatic cases that I dealt with
who was possessed I call her Julia and again whenever I whenever I use a name it's
confidential in my book I write about different cases to illustrate these phenomena
but uh of course their their privacy is protected even though all the details are
true the prophets were protected by my disguising their uh at least name and Locale
that sort of thing but but she could um she

Could tell me a lot of this hidden knowledge for instance she told me once uh my
mother had died much years earlier of ovarian cancer but she also told you know me
all kinds of things in fact she also had a number of other pretty natural or
paranormal abilities she had with the parapsychologists call remote viewing she
could actually see things at a distance and when I asked her one time and these
were even outside of when she

Was actually in a formal state of possession although she had other signs very
clear of possession and when I asked her once excuse me um uh if she felt she was a
gifted person you know when you deal with the spiritualists and channelers and that
sort of thing these people will often say well I I was born gifted and there
probably are some spiritually gifted people having said that Sean

Um she was very blunt she said nobody is nobody is born gifted I get these Powers
through Satan and um I and I said why do you think Satan gives you those powers in
this case this was one of these rare genuine Satanist who worshiped the devil and
also received these Powers unfortunately at the same time she became possessed
which she was well aware of and I evaluated for quite a while

So it sounds like the signs are Supernatural strength knowledge and information
somebody couldn't have whether that's at a distance and in your book again demonic
foes your story about you tell a story about I believe it was a priest that she
maybe it was Julia or another person who said I can see him is here wearing the
shack you calm up and it perfectly matches up having information at a distance the
other one you mentioned is

Is levitation now in an article interview I saw with you you said you have not seen
this but you have reason to believe that there are credible cases of people who are
being demon-possessed or oppressed genuinely levitate you have you have to talk
about the level of Rarity of some of these things a full possession is is fairly
rare uh oppressions people who feel attacked in different ways by evil spirits
they're not common but they're also fairly rare

Now within possessions [Music] um you know we know both historically and in my
experience talking to about 35 different people with a witnessed it or experienced
it themselves uh even within possessions levitation is rare enough to that uh even
though I've had a lot of experience with these people I've never actually seen it
myself but you know I've talked to 35 people who including a European

Professor of my uh of my acquaintance who have sworn to me that they've seen these

levitations in the case of uh yes you were referring referencing the case Julia
this Satanist she had a incredibly flamboyant described once in a century
possession I write about her in the book and she during her last exorcism levitated
according to eight people that I spoke to

Uh I've been to quite a few exercises in my life but I couldn't go to hers you know
I'm a pretty busy guy and um uh they all they all said to me she levitated for
about half an hour during the exorcism uh she had to be held down otherwise she
would have ascended further and this is also reported in history in spiritualist
and occult literature too they all seem to be

Partaking of a uh phenomena that is again ultimately caused by evil spirits I I

don't know a lot about exorcism in part before reading your book carefully but one
of the things that really impressed me is how seriously the Catholic Church it does
and not all but many Ministries take diagnosing and dealing with exorcism what is
the training like to become an exorcist obviously somebody could start

Their own Exorcist Ministry independently but say within like the Catholic church
or within another formally recognized institution what is that process like for
somebody who says I think I'm being called to or I want to be an exorcist uh first
of all the exorcists are usually carefully chosen um and they are supposed to uh
have a certain spiritual maturity and piety and and sort of Common Sense this is
not
This is not a field for histrionic people uh so or or people who are overly
credulous so um it's often it's often an older priest and um they do have usually
special training of some sort in many ways the the the best training is a kind of
apprenticeship apprenticeship where they will be under the tutelage of an older or
at least more experience Exorcist there were also several Societies in in

America that are specifically devoted Priestly societies that are specifically
devoted to training these these people uh the you know new exorcists and there are
actually many more exorcists now than when I start one of the reasons I saw so many
cases Sean especially in the first 10 years was that there were very few exorcists
so the exorcists that I worked with they would use me for a wide variety of cases
all over the United States they became very good friends of

Mine and and and quite frankly I I had an enormous level of experience exorcists
are usually confined nowadays to the diocese because it's the individual diocese
that are responsible for uh selecting and and training The Exorcist and they deal
with the cases within their diocese so a lot of exercises today they won't really
because of the Rarity of these conditions they really won't see very many of these
cases

Unlike myself in the original exorcists that I dealt with that would see cases all
throughout the country when you are working on a case of somebody who's oppressed
or possessed are there common experiences as you probe further or beliefs that you
find in that person's life if not always more often than not and and what are they
uh the history is is incredibly important I mean another major criteria is that you
will often get an individual

Who is not particularly hostile to religion or something but when the evil spirit
manifests itself the evil spirit is incredibly uh not only uh hostile but afraid of
sacred things um but the the the background of victims is varies a little bit but
on the other hand um they usually have made some kind of

Turn in their life that is very unwise they've either turned to something of a
serious nature occultic or dark obviously in Julia's case it was Satanism but other
people turned to uh election degrees of Witchcraft or um some type of slightly dark
spiritualism or something and at the same time many of them or independently people
turn to very sinful

Or evil practices uh in some ways they have invited either directly or indirectly
they have invited again with a possession they have invited the evil spirit in so
for instance in Julia's case it was very obvious she she worshiped Satan she
thought she was getting a lot out of it but it was literally what we call a
Faustian bargain she got much more than bargained for in another case I write

About a book uh I write about a guy who was a criminal and he was kind of a drug
kingpin of sorts and he had turned to a Mexican occult cult called Santa muerta
Muerte and and he um was a pretty uh nasty guy uh he was eventually a prison for
his crimes and the chaplain at the prison found that he was possessed uh he did
eventually get help um but obviously in his case

Um probably even more than his involvement with the occult which was a factor was
the fact that he had led such an evil criminal life so he in the worst cases that's
what you you often see in cases of Oppression it's different you don't necessarily
see somebody who's horribly involved in evil or but they usually have dabbled in
occultism or something like that there's some reason that they have these more
minor

Um harassment or or oppression by by a demon your training is in Psychiatry or

board-certified psychiatrist so I'm curious what mental illnesses most resemble a
kind of diabolical attack and how do you make sure you don't misdiagnose somebody
well I'm a pretty experienced guy and I've you know probably seen over 25 000 cases

During the course of my career so I'm pretty good at diagnosing people uh

throughout history uh people you know people sometimes people in the church have
been confused by different neurological conditions by seizure disorders if you're
familiar with the neurological disorder Tourette's where the person kind of
involuntary schemes obviously these have been confusing diagnosis throughout
history but with the with the

Development of modern uh diagnostic techniques and neuroimaging MRIs that sort of

thing it's it's rare that a medical or neurological illness is mistaken for
possession these days what happens nowadays at least in the in the developed World
um what happens nowadays is most of the cases of people who imagine or are deluded
into thinking they're possessed and their families may as well are

People with psychiatric disorders and there's three large groupings I mean some
people are psychotic especially somebody like who's a schizophrenic they may hear a
demonic Voice or feel they hear a evil spirit talking to them and that's you know
what we call the hallucination and it it it it is explained as a as a as a mental
illness and brain based uh symptoms um so yeah you certainly have to rule out
different psychotic conditions

Including including drug States uh number two you will get a certain amount of
people who are very suggestible again I write about a couple of these people in the
book and they may have something of a histrionic nature of a dissociative disorder
the classic one is is what's called multiple personality disorder now did
dissociative identity disorder and these people may imagine again at one of their
so-called altars is a demon um you have to rule out that category

Which is a broad category of kind of histrionic or suggestible people and finally

there are people who are dealing with what we would call in our field personality
disorders um what it means is that they have a bunch of maladaptive symptoms
working against them but they're not particularly psychotic or anything and these
individuals include people who are often diagnosed as borderline or even anti-
social personality and they're

Dealing with a often a great deal of evil impulses or dark impulses some of which
are are involuntary and they may they may feel hey I'm dealing with such dark
impulses um for which they may or not take any responsibility often a sociopathic
patient is perfectly fine with their evil impulses um but these personality
disorders who deal with these dark Forces

Um do not necessarily seem to be directly affected uh by by demons but it's it's

just it's sort of a part of their character or or their personality so those those
groups the you might say the severely histrionic The Psychotic and the personality
disorder patients with some kind of dark impulses they're often confused certainly
by I would say fatalist as being demonically disaster or at least oppressed and we
don't necessarily see that as the case

I think you probably would agree with me that human nature is capable of a certain
amount of Darkness of their own given his Fallen state of human nature and you
can't go around as C.S Lewis wisely said it was it was a genuine expert in this
area by the way I didn't write a lot about it but certainly the screw type letters
showed how much he thought about demonic strategies on human beings but he used to
say it's important to recognize that evil spirits

Exist and you certainly don't have to convince me that evil spirits exist but on
the other hand you shouldn't become preoccupied with it too and you shouldn't blame
all human problems so on on demons uh the great medieval philosopher uh Thomas
Aquinas used to say and again it was an estimate on his part what he used to say 90
of human evil is

Called is caused not by demons or demonic influence but by our our human Frailty do
you think most of demonic influence is not necessarily oppression or possession but
just lying and misinformation and deceiving people and the ones you talk about are
more the exception because you said both possession and oppression are rare is that
the primary tactic Satan uses but then sometimes pop up these cases of

Oppression and possession no I would agree with that 100 uh uh the possessions are
very rare uh oppression people are people who are seeing possessions all the time
are mistaken you know end of the story oppressions more common but there's a kind
of Continuum and that uh in in some sense we're all tempted so so all human beings
are tempted by evil spirits the question then becomes you know does that does that
absolve people of

Responsibility of course not you know we're still responsible for our the way we
respond to demonic Temptations and demons cannot actually uh take away our free
will even in possessions they're taking over the Consciousness and the act action
of the individual but then then the individual is not responsible for that uh
Behavior while they were in a possessed state but even these individuals they're
not

Their Free Will is still intact when they're not just overwhelmed by this evil
spirit possessing them walk us through if you will what actually happens in an
exorcism so so the Catholic church or whatever organization has very carefully
ruled out all uh possible mental illness seeing positive signs whether it's power
information uh that they couldn't have levitation and like you said with that first
case come to conclusion this is

The only possible explanation what would that process look like then to perform an
exorcism well after after the the careful discernment and then uh in in the
Catholic Church which you asked the question about uh and asked the exorcism the
formal exorcism and there are Deliverance prayers just as in protestantism a lot of
people Define those as Deliverance ministers there are Deliverance prayers

That are done by Catholic priests too but to get a formal exorcism you have to go
through this rigorous process and have the approval of the local Bishop once that
happens um I mean The Exorcist I worked with most closely was probably the most
experienced Exorcist in in the United States ever I uh I call them in the book
father a which is a pseudonym he used um he used to say well every exorcism is

A little bit different and it probably depends on the the technique and the
practices of the individual Exorcist at the same time within the Catholic Church
there and the Orthodox Church for that matter too there is there is a very formal
ritual uh it's existed for uh about 400 years now it was a codified in the 1600s uh
to make sure that the procedures and practices and prayers were standardized
because

In every era of the of the church and the churches in Christian history there's
always going to be people who kind of abuse or are a little loosey-goosey about uh
and the Catholic Church does prescribe uh that those prayers should be used uh
during the ritual it's it's included in a book called the Roman ritual um it's it's
a pretty venerable and and

Scripture-based set of prayers uh on the other hand at times the uh Exodus priest
is going to go outside of the prayers and and attempt to question or investigate
further asks try to access the the evil spirit uh and and not really have a
conversation you're not supposed to have an idle conversation with an evil spirit
but what you are supposed to do is um discern the cause uh if it's unknown

And command the Spirit by the power of Jesus Christ No Exorcist is going to say
this is by my own power they're going to say I command you or uh our Lord command
you to leave eventually and to and to reveal yourself um there is a there is some
emphasis on getting the name of the evil spirit um there's nothing magical about
that what it is is these evil spirits try to hide and they've done a great job in
history

And they've often present themselves as some dastardly figure in history they'll
say oh I'm Nero or Hitler or scared or something in ancient times I think the the
Hebrew Scholars as well as the early Christian [Music] um thinkers were quite
insistent that the um gods and goddesses of the Pagan

World uh were disguised demons and and I've
seen I've seen cases of possession where um
possessed by Zeus or by Apollo or something
demons have have often disguised themselves
themselves
come to believe that in fact I I've
people will claim that they're
like that so throughout history these
and they still often disguise

Including in spiritualism as dead souls and things like that they'll try to confuse
people sometimes they'll even present themselves as angels um so you always have to
be scarful about careful about people who claim that ain't but talking to them as
well uh even though I think that can also happen um so when the demon is forced in
the exorcism to reveal who they really are

They do so reluctantly and it's a good sign because of what it means is that the
church or the priest is gaining control that the the evil spirit is having to
submit by revealing their real name and that's the time because now you're getting
the evil spirit who doesn't want to submit obviously uh you're getting their
compliance and uh they they are forced to um submit to the power of our Lord and
often often soon after them soon after

That happening they will be driven out it can be a protracted uh it can be a

protracted process again I've attended exorcisms not as an exorcist but uh as a as
a requested Observer and I I've seen people delivered in one session but I've also
seen it go on typically or often for a few months and and sometimes it can go on
for years those cases are are often quite difficult a lot depends by the way it's
not a magic ceremony so

The the the victim has to work at it too you know it's a witch doctor and you know
the priest says these mumbo jumbo prayers and cases settled um what happens is the
the victim has to work at developing their own Christian Life and turning closer to
our Lord before it's likely that they're going to be uh driven out I received the
book not long ago from someone who said they were an exorcist

And I thought wow this might be a really interesting interview send it to a

theology Professor I work with and he said I'm not convinced this is genuine I
think he's a huckster because he charges people a certain fee for exorcisms and
he's the one who sent me your name he's like you should talk with Dr Gallagher how
many hucksters are out there and how can you recognize them from someone who is a
genuine Exorcist

Yeah well you've mentioned one criteria I I'm very skeptical of what are your
charges for it the woman I mentioned who uh had this Lutheran Deacon um
inexperienced um uh try to provide an exorcism um she told me that later she went
to a famous televangelist who said to her well
You can either give me five thousand dollars to do an exorcism or you can appear on
my television show and she wisely recognized that that was not a sensible thing to
do uh and I tell people you know you have to seek out and ask the permission of the
church or if you brought us in some experienced Deliverance minister to help you if
they charge you you know stay away from that person

That's helpful now what what have you learned about demons from this you kind of
hint at your book like different personalities of demons just in terms of their
tactics and their nature and then I'd also say what can we trust on that given that
the nature of a demon is to lie and deceive how do we know I have accurate
information and false information well at some point related to uh the process of
the exorcism being under the

Uh command of uh well Lord ultimately uh demons are forced to tell the truth about
something but uh if if you're asking them anything like that's extraneous and in
general when they when they kind of are communicating in these odd ways with people
uh they're in veteran liars and and so you can you cannot trust anything they say
really um they do have different personalities

Uh we certainly believe as I think you do Sean that they're Fallen Angels they tend
to be uh very smart uh very intelligent although some of them act very foolishly
and probably rebelling against God was their most foolish act in uh and and Cosmic
history but uh yes they have different levels of powers and different levels of
intelligence um at the same time they probably have slightly different
personalities the

Personalities tend to be sort of sadistic uh and they certainly seem to um enjoy

torturing human beings I think they think of us as sort of beasts uh little animals
that they are superior to I always tell the story of uh Julia when I saw her in one
of her possessed trances

She said to the priest uh I'm not going to imitate the voice but it was in the
demonic 10 year 10 year old boys she said um I I said leave leave her alone you
monkey priest you'll be sorry and and I think that's exactly how they tend to
regard human beings like sort of monkeys that they can play things ultimately they
they hate human beings

Um they're full of hate and their main hate of course is directed at at God and God
the father and our Lord precisely because [Music] they they feel they've had to
submit uh to this power that they've rejected the movie I know you're familiar with
The Exorcism of Emily Rose was actually directed by a Biola grad who was their
fears before I was Scott Derrickson all right I never knew that yeah yeah really

Really interesting and it was a good movie and as you know Sean it was based on a
real case from Germany that's what I was going to ask you to share that case
because many would use that as a case of criticizing exorcism because of what
happened to her would you be able to tell us what happened a little bit in that
case and what you think we can take away from it when you talk when you talk to
policemen and and as as a a Gallagher from New

York uh I know a lot of police and have a few have had a few words relatives they
will often say the the first story is often not the complete story so a lot of
people know the full story um she uh in my opinion was possessed um on the other
hand she and her parents had been so frustrated with the German medical system that
they neglected her medical problem she had a

Series of medical problems and eventually because of our neglected medical problems
not because of the possession but because of our neglected medical problems which
she didn't address properly but she she refused to address uh she died and so uh
the German priests who are working with her who had tried to get her to go to
Physicians but then said well look you know she refuses we're going to continue the
exorcisms

They were held actually legally liable they never actually um uh you know were
jailed or fined or anything like that but they they they they they were put through
the ringer and put on probation so it was a notorious case in Germany because a lot
of people in Germany were skeptical of evil spirits and it sort of discredited the
whole exorcism Ministry

For many years so I guess the the devil achieved a certain Victory there oh wow
that's that's really interesting that's really that's really the Inside Story which
I think the movie sort of sort of touches upon but but perhaps doesn't doesn't
fully reflect the original as a whole what what do movies get right and get wrong
about exorcism at least popular movies and I know there's a lot

And I wonder I mean do you watch these movies given what you do or do you just stay
away from them well there's so many of these movies um and Hollywood has often
wanted me to participate in the movie and I actually have agreed to do that oh wow
that's a whole nother story uh it's going to be done by Jason Blum who's a pretty
big Power broker in Hollywood uh I'm not doing it for the money I'm doing it for
you know attempting to to kind of

Present a a realistic portrait of what the field is really like um but most of them
and and it's in it's it's in the service of addressing exactly what you're saying a
lot of these movies are sensationalists they're schlocky uh and they're they're
oversimplified and again they they kind of uh presented as a magic ceremony uh in
the way I I mentioned before that

A lot of people sort of in medicine they want the magic pill to cure their their
condition and and exorcism sometimes they want the the magic formula to relieve
them of a demonic attack but it's always more complicated than that because the
victim has to has to turn to God has to reform their life for instance again using
Julia's case as an example she was this

Literal Satan worshiping um Priestess she called herself of the of a cult even
though these Cults are rare she was the real deal but she never really agreed
despite the priest being generous enough to do exorcisms with her at her request
she never was really willing to reform her life or leave the cult in part because
she was afraid of the cult and so she was never delivered so um as opposed to this
gangster I mentioned who

After this serious possession he returned to his practice um it was an Hispanic man
who returned to his practice in the in the Catholic Church reformed his life and he
was eventually delivered so that's what Hollywood really gets wrong they they
memorized that whole thing it's it's not just some magic combat between uh the the
priests witch doctor of taipu uh does all the Deliverance it's it's delivered

By our Lord and it requires the cooperation and sometimes the reform of a person's
life by the victim so I'm sure you can think of Hollywood movies which distort both
of those factors so again I want to remind just our viewers here ivy league trained
academic who is a consult you do consultations but not exorcists and in your book
it says kind of 25 years you've been investigating diabolical tax and the
Paranormal how confident are you that

Demons exist and what might you say to somebody who is unconvinced well I've seen
so much evidence Sean that uh I mean I'm unequivocally convinced I mean I know it's
not a question of a belief I know that evil spirits exist I've just seen so much I
mean that that in a way is why I wrote the book it really is a book guy serious
book it's not it's not dumbed down not sensationalized I have a good friend who
happens to be a Jewish doctor out west

And I don't always go around talking to everybody about this work so he didn't even
know even though he's a close friend what I do and he said Rich how come you never
told me about your involvement in this field and I said well you know it's not like
I go around telling everybody in my private life about this and he said I said what
did you think of it and he said and this is I mean this is a good man I mean he

Certainly believes in God but he was brought up as a secular Jew and he said well
Rich I'll tell you what my my opinion is as a as an intelligent doctor as as he is
he said I don't think anybody can read read your book and and say that a good
intellectual case can't be that evil spirits exist the other the other way I
sometimes phrase it is I'm sure you're familiar uh Sean with the New Testament when
when Saint Paul went to Corinth which I suppose is like

Some buddy going from Kansas to San Francisco or something and he preached Jesus
Christ uh crucified he also preached that Jesus rose from the dead and he said he
said folks of Corinth citizens of Corinth you don't have to believe me 500 people
were reported he he appeared to 500 people those people are still alive go talk to
them and analogously I sometimes say every

Couple of years I go to this meeting of the International Association of exorcists

in Italy there's about 500 of those people I said take the evidence of my book to
sigh you don't know me so decide what you think about it but you don't have to
believe Dr Gallagher go talk to these 500 exorcists you know they they write their
own books they're perfectly happy to talk about this stuff and of course there are
there are many other uh Protestants as well as Catholic

People involved in this field uh people are alive I mean you can you can talk to
them about their experiences and if you if a person is really objective about it I
know you're an apologist Sean so you're you're kind of interested in this sort of
thing if people are really serious about it they they they can get a pretty good
idea of the truth to this you know it's not it's not hidden under a bushel so one
of the things is partly convinced

Me of the stories for near-death experiences and Miracle claims is there certainly
some people who are parading false claims to sell books and get a platform but
there's a whole lot of people who are just even reluctant to share these kinds of
stories because they think people will say that they're crazy you're an academic in
the ivy league and so clearly it went through your mind like if I start helping
with possession

If I write on this this could affect me professionally how did you overcome and why
did you overcome that barrier and how is your work received in the larger scholarly
world well first of all I'm a full Professor so I don't think anybody's going to
take that away from me nice second of all the short answer is I really don't care
what people think I mean people have all kinds of unpopular

Opinions in this country and you know you can't go around worrying about what
people think but the other the other rejoinder I I I give to people if they
challenge me and perfectly happy to be challenged is I they say well Dr Gallagher
how does it feel to be outside the mainstream what mainstream are you talking about
first of all most Americans believe it they believe in God and they believe an evil
spirits I mean a certain amount of

Skepticism in the United States and Europe but around the world even more of a
majority of people believe in evil spirits my book was recently translated into
Japanese I mean in East Asia almost everybody believes in evil spirits you go to
Haiti or Madagascar you know belief in evil spirits and their activity is universal
so I hardly think I'm out of the mainstream and if you look at cultures in history
and people have studied that

Uh possession cases have been reported throughout the vast majority of Christians
of all cultures throughout history so uh when people say how does it feel to be out
of the mainstream I'd say again what mainstream are you talking about I'm in the
mainstream maybe you're not now it is true that psychiatrists for different reasons
they tend to be a little less religious than the American public they tend to of
course see people all

The time who only think they are affected by evil spirits they'll we're all
familiar with schizophrenic patients who have hallucinations of evil spirits or
aliens or Communists or the FBI or whatever so it's natural Sean that psychiatrists
are going to be a little more skeptical of these things but um you know that's
their problem not much sure so Dr Gallagher one of the tactics of demons is to
silence people that are

Calling them out and limiting their powers so have you given that you are helping
with oppression and possession you're speaking out trying to educate people I would
imagine you know if demons are real and like you I believe they are they'd be
thinking we got to take this Gallagher guy out he's causing too much trouble he's
drawn people to attention to this we'd rather have these phenomena explained away
as mental illness

Have you experienced that if so how do you deal with it if not how have you
protected yourself from experiencing that well I I think I think any any any
Christian Sean who speaks out is going to be a little targeted and how do you deal
with that I mean you as an apologist are in some ways a similar category uh you
have to have your own spiritual life

In my case I'm a little Shameless about asking people for pray prayers I I have a
lot of people praying for me in fact you give me the opportunity now to ask your
audience to pray for me and I think you have to go into this sort of work with that
mentality that we all need to protect ourselves and to have protection of others
and you know then then you'll live with it whatever is sent you in life um I don't
I don't particularly feel

Like I've been overtly attacked myself so you mentioned that demon possession is
very rare demon depression a little bit more common but still rare if we're going
to say if we're going to take like you know I would say uh oppression I mean if if
a clergy person keeps their eye open they'll see a few of those cases they probably
won't see very many possessions if any in their whole life so it

As far as what your best guess would be if we're going to take say the Catholic
church in the United States you said all exorcisms work through official channels
very carefully if you had a guess within a given year how many are performed in the
U.S is it two is it 2 000 how many would you guess just within the Catholic church
and of course this does include the Orthodox other Protestant Ministries Etc or is
that impossible to know

Well it's impossible to know precisely because a lot of these things are kept very
private um why doesn't the church do videotapes of people it's forbidden and I have
have seen people outside the church do videotapes and believe it or not it sounds
kind of like a pat answer sometimes the tapes are are blank when you when you try
to view them yeah yeah and then again evil spirits a certain

Amount of power over over material reality uh otherwise they couldn't they couldn't
you know possess somebody having said that um I don't know maybe a couple of
thousand you know every year uh that that would be my guess you know okay that's
that that's helpful that's fair if somebody thinks they're experiencing demonic uh
oppression in some fashion what should what should they do

Well the the first thing is they should pray and they should turn to our Lord and
ask for guidance and then they should try to find somebody um in the Catholic
church people can always sort of contact the diet food um and a lot of other
churches they should attempt to to find somebody within their congregation um or
denomination somebody who's

Sensible has experience as we talked about before who sees this as a spiritual
Ministry sometimes those people do have a little difficulty finding someone but
they they have to continue to search and pray that they will find somebody who will
help them are there differences between how Protestants and Catholics and those who
are Orthodox perform exorcisms

The exorcism rituals in the Catholic church and in the Orthodox Church um the
formula in the Orthodox Church actually goes back even centuries before um they're
they're pretty systematized and formalized um in the Protestant denominations it
varies much more I mean some of them use fairly traditional prayers and some of
them some of the mainstream churches have developed specific prayers and practices
and

Procedures but it's a little more individualized and and people are using much more
their individual judgment and more kind of individual choice of prayers and ways of
working with the individual so that there is that difference in as a generalization
fair enough Dr Gallagher I have so many questions for you I really want to respect
your time did I did I miss anything anything you want to clarify

Story you want to share that would just help our audience whether it's a Christian
one and understand exorcism maybe a skeptic who's not convinced anything else that
would be helpful to share the audience before we wrap up well I'll make one point
and then maybe give one more example um you know I'm a big believer in science I'm
I'm a physician you cannot be a good physician without believing in science

And I don't see any contradiction between what um the scientific knowledge that I
Rely Upon which is often based on a um if you want to be fancy about it a a
scientific principle called methodological naturalism it may you know we're doing
experiments we're expecting replicated findings like in cancer studies and stuff so
I'm very committed to science but the the kind of uh findings that I report

They're not unscientific just because they're historical so the the evidence base
there is in history and and that's the way actually most people come to know things
I mean why how do we know that George Washington across the Delaware well because
we have good evidence for it so I've drawn in my book to present um I've tried in
my book sorry for the phone that's okay

I've tried in my book to present um good evidence [Music] um recognizing at the

same time that you're dealing with a realm of reality that is trying to confuse her
that is trying to confuse us so people are bound to find this a complicated subject
the best illustration of the confusing

Aspect of that is I I dealt with a woman who was oppressed she was perfectly sane
but she felt she was getting messages from from the Beyond and she originally told
me uh evaluated over the course of about six months she originally told me that um
she was having Angels talk to her and that these angels had a great mission for her
and she was skeptical about it because

She was a very down-to-earth person and didn't feel that God was seeking around for
some grandiose Mission so I said well you know pray about it she'd already been
clearly diagnosed as non-mentally ill and she came back a month or so later and
said Dr Gallagher um they now say that they're dead souls and this is the sort of
bread and butter of spiritualism people who Channel spirits

And stuff they often think they are in touch with dead Souls and uh she said well I
I know we're really not supposed to speak to Deadpool um certainly in in the way
that I feel they're communicating with me it's summoning of spirits is condemned in
in the Bible as you know I said well keep praying and and take the advice of the
priest and we'll see if this gets sorted out and eventually

She said you know Dr Gallagher you were right they finally have revealed who they
are and just as in a exorcism where the evil spirit is forced to reveal who they
are eventually these Messengers uh speaking to her admitted that they were evil
spirits so it's a good microcosm of how they try to disguise themselves they can
even disguise themselves as angels uh that's also a new testament theme

Right the Epistles number two they they have often throughout history disguised
themselves as deceased spirits of one sort or another this is a bread and butter of
uh psychics and spiritualists and on the other hand um in ancient times as I
mentioned they they have presented themselves as gods and goddesses who were often
thought to be sort of malicious as well as benign

Which would make sense right uh and so um they have tried to confuse the human race
for millennia they're still trying to confuse people and that's why people need to
hold fast to the the the the the stand Orthodox teachings of the church Dr Richard
Gallagher I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and join me I enjoyed
your book I hope that's the

Right word in the sense that it was fascinating it was insightful I listened to it
on Audible uh twice again for the audience it's called demonic foes and you tell
the stories but the way I described it earlier was my experience too it's not
sensationalistic you give the details we need to know to understand the stories and
some of them are disturbing but not overly Sensational Beyond what's necessary for
the audience to understand that was that

Was my take so those of you who want to go further and understand uh some cases and
examples and teachings about demons I'd highly suggest uh demonic foes the rest of
you make sure you hit subscribe we've got some other videos coming up on a range of
apologetic and worldview issues including within the next few weeks uh doing an
interview again with Billy Halliwell a journalist who's written a book called
playing with fire on 10K questions about demons we're

Going to follow up and probe into some of the particulars there if you thought
about studying apologetics we'd love to have you by Ella we're the top rate
apologetics program it's fully distanced and online and part of studying
apologetics is we have Bible and theology classes and we go into angelology
demonology and some of the very topics today within the program so information is
below would love to have you join us again Dr Gallagher thanks so

Much for your time and uh for your work I've really enjoyed it uh thank you Sean
God bless