Welcome to conversations the world over I'm Raymond Arroyo this week the

conversation turns to the subject of demonic possession at no time in history is so

much attention been focused on the phenomenon it is a popular plot point in many
films and TV shows and has recently been a lot of controversy over Satanic black
masses at Harvard University in Oklahoma City even Pope Francis regularly speaks in
his homilies about

The devil and demonic influence several years ago I had the opportunity to speak
with the former chief Exorcist for the Archdiocese of New York he helped us
separate fact from fiction regarding demonic possession and the Catholic ministry
of exorcism it remains one of our most popular segments and oftentimes the fact is
just as disturbing as the fiction here's my conversation with the late father James
lebar tell us to begin what is the difference in your opinion

Between demonic possession and oppression well possession is much more serious than
oppression in oppression the devil bothers somebody from the outside sometimes by
poking them sometimes by where the word comes from oppression really pressing down
on them causing difficulty and actions and such possession is when the devil
actually takes over the operation of the body of the person and the person doesn't
even know what's going on hmm

Much more serious how common is this sort of diabolical of manifestation well it's
kind of hard to say exactly how common it is certainly in the time of Jesus we have
examples in the Gospels of where Jesus exorcised people the devil from people and
down through the centuries the church has always been involved in helping people
get rid of the devil rites of exorcism were developed as early as the 1200s was one
in 1583 in the current one

16:14 that's just been replaced by a new one put out in 1999 right probably 5% of
the cases that we look at need an exorcism and we look at maybe 30 or 40 cases a
year in the Archdiocese of New York but they come from many places not just from
New York right father who is most susceptible to demonic possession well again it's
kind of occult to put a like to give a broad and on because it depends on so much
it basically a person who has a weak faith a person who has

Given up on God would be most susceptible to the devil moving in person who is
doing evil things crime the bow Cheree evil things and once in a while a person
will sell this old to the devil or give their soul to the devil such in exchange
for riches and such and then the devil has a good opportunity to move in hmm tell
me about you've done a lot of work on cults how much do how much of an impact do
cults and the occult have on

This problem well for the past 25 years or so there have been a lot of religious or
pseudo religious cults drawing people away from the true faith or from the other
faiths in the world and giving them a mother strange and unusual way view of the
world we could say some of these deteriorate into an opportunity for the devil to
move in there are also satanic cults there is the Worldwide Church of Satan there
is the temple of set and of course the Church of Satan

Right and these people have dedicated themselves to the worship of something they
don't want to say it's a real person the devil but we know that it is and so these
people see the direct opposite of everything that Christians and other religious
people see that which is good for us seems to be bad for them those things which
are bad for them for us seem to be good to them and so they rejoice in pleasure
they rejoice and illicit sexual activities they

Rejoice in in harming people or harming them elves themselves at times - yes so

it's you know really hard to say just what exactly causes it but basically it's a
lack of faith father a quick couple of quick questions we often hear today about
Wicca the practice of witchcraft I'm and they were here I'm a member of Wicca but I
only practice white magic they say is there such a thing as white magic in your
opinion Wicca are people

That practice - pagan religion of worshipping the elements inside they call that
white magic but it's neither white nor magic magic itself is basically black it's
evil and it has to do the word magic itself means doing something outside of the
way regular way of doing things but the witches in order to or the Wiccans in order
to validate their own existence we'll call it white magic we only do good things
but they can't really pinpoint what's good and

That's all we're also a portal to the - to the satanic oh yes very often with the
devil tree the people get involved in the Wicca will find themselves involved with
the devil if they're not careful hmm let's talk about the marks of possession in
your experience and I know you've performed several exorcisms what are the marks of
possession what do you physically see well sometimes you don't see anything but a
person who is truly possessed generally has three or

Four characteristics one they possess great strength somebody I knew who was
possessed could pick up a 200 pound bag of cement with one hand and throw it they
have an ability to see things from a distance we call it a clairvoyance now I
should say also that some of these things could be good or bad some of the Saints
have had clairvoyance some of the Saints have been in the ability to be in more
than one place at once so some of these things we talked about as marks of

A possessed person have an orientation towards the evil side but there's a
corresponding holy side of these things too so the ability to have clairvoyance to
see what's going on at a distance the devil can't make things happen but he might
know what's going to happen tomorrow and let us know ahead of time making it look
like he's causing that thing to happen right how does someone know if they are
possessed father are there are there things that a

Family member can look for the things a person themselves can look for if they feel
they are being oppressed you know in an unnatural way well generally speaking a
person who is possessed doesn't know that the devil's taken them over completely
and entirely they don't know that we have to depend on the family members and
others people to let us know first of all that they're talking in strange languages
they never studied that they possess this great

Strength and that they can foresee something happening someplace else those are the
three basic things we look for and of course also on us on the lower level but
perhaps a little more easy to understand and see they might have a great aversion
to things that are spiritual they'll haven't direct hesitation to stepping inside a
Catholic Church where the Blessed Sacrament is and they have a direct aversion to
anything that's blessed by holy water

And those are the three main things if we see those things happening we know we
have a problem if something's up father uh how does one become an exorcist I
suppose that's a question you often get when you're when you're traveling about
well I do and it's easy you get a point you become an exorcist when the bishop
appoints you to do that every bishop can be an exorcist on his own right but a
priest has to have the specific and direct appointment of the

Bishop for each particular case that he does and how do you train for this I mean
obviously you're going to battle with Satan how do you prepare for that sort of
heightened task well you know sometimes it looks like it's an awesome task and a
very formidable one but really all it is is proclaiming the good news of Jesus
Christ and to do that you have to have a deep and abiding faith in Jesus as the
true as Savior and true God and true man you have to have a belief
In the power of God and the mercy of God but there is a training period though
there is a there is a course of training if you will a mentorship well naturally
anybody who takes a special position in church be Exorcist or a master of
ceremonies has to learn what's going on and has to know just what to be so what
happens basically is from one that the experience and the ways are handed over from
one Exorcist to the other in the

Case of the Archdiocese of New York where we had nobody for a long time because I
was involved with the cults and the uh cults in the the matters in earlier years of
looking into these matters I was asked to give a training course which consisted of
looking at the ritual examining it seeing what it does why we do it seeing some
cases that happen and then looking and seeing what do we need to look for when a
person comes to say they need help let walk us

Through the right if you will what is the first thing you do I suppose its
diagnosis is this person possessed right when someone comes to us seeking an
exorcism we first of all have to find out if they need it and generally speaking of
a person says they want an exorcism they don't need it because the devil when he
possesses a person which is the primary need for exorcism the person doesn't know
anymore what's going on but oftentimes the family can come

And they can tell us what's happening and sometimes the devil possesses somebody
temporarily so I learned a long time ago that I made him a big mistake when I said
if if they can tell us they want an exorcism they absolutely don't need it but
that's not correct totally because they may be partially possessed and know that
something happened back then last week last month right and something's wrong so
they're looking for an answer

Right but if they come specifically say exorcism then generally they don't need it
but the person has an aversion to anything that's good person has a inability to
walk into the presence of the Blessed Sacrament the person absolutely revolts
against the sprinkling of holy water upon them and if you bring a rosary and try to
give it to them the liable to throw it across the room so anything that's holy
anything that's sacred is no good for

That revolting and the more they have that the closer they come to being needing
the exorcism tell me about these introductory prayers there are introductory
prayers as a part of the right what do those do the Rite of exorcism basically and
let me just add this you didn't ask it yet but oh go ahead take it take over my job
it's a it dates from the 14th century right and the first formal Rite of exorcism
was about the year 1583 they revised it

Again in the last revision took place really in 1614 and then last year it was
revised again the Pope just revised it what were the changes there and there was
one more revision when the local languages were able to be used and now in 1999 the
long sought after revision or redevelopment of the ritual took place and was
published this year this ritual takes away a lot of the word pictures that were
there before remember back in 1614 we didn't have pictures

Television radio or anything like that so we had to give an image of what the devil
is and so there were a lot of flowery words seducer of evil Trotter of the trampled
upon the downtrodden things like this anything right to describe the horrible
nature of the devil and these were used repeatedly in the prayers of exorcism so
that the person themselves was helped to see this horrible creature that was there
the newer ritual doesn't have that because now we have television

We have pictures and all that and we have a lot of other ways to find out what the
devil looks like but the basic elements of the Rite of exorcism is to expel the
demon in the name of Jesus Christ and by command the new ritual also gives a lesser
form by in declaring the devil to leave one is called imperative go right the other
one is declarative may the Lord take the devil away what's the imploring formula
there's

Something called the imploring that's the imperative that's the imperative okay in
the name of Jesus go commanding imperative meaning more commanding than pleading
and the other one is the lesser form or used oftentimes in deliverance ministries
Oh No the Lord deliver us from all right on things of that sort but it also now is
part of the ritual of exorcism and please to our lady now the Virgin Mary

Has been closed the other part that was in the thank you for reminding me you see I
can't remember everything you do it I'm just trying to but the in the ritual for
the first time we're prayers of intercession to our lady because as the mother of
Jesus she has a very special place to play and the devil resents her presence very
much how long does this normally take father when you go in to exorcise someone how
long does each 70 the ritual itself

Takes about a half hour at the most it includes a litany of the Saints it includes
you know other prayers of intercession and you can stop whenever you have to repeat
something because the devil is being ornery or something one of the things we have
to do at the beginning is find out the name of the devil and why do you do that we
do that because it was an ancient Hebrew practice and maybe ancient eastern
practice too but that matter that if you

Know the name of someone you have control over them and so you know we're sitting
here and I want to ask the camera person to do something if I say you there do this
it's not gonna pay any attention but if I say Mary or Jane or Jack would you do
this they perk up and they do it well then they say I can't do it right but one you
have the name of the person you have a certain amount of control and in the ancient
mind of the Semitic sigh guess

Or maybe all of ancient civilization if you have then if you know the name of the
person you have a certain amount of control over that why the questioning father
there's almost an incessant questioning of the devil in the possessed why do you do
that it's almost a toying with him well it might seem that way but actually what it
is we're trying to find out who the devil is we have to find out the name and why
he's there and once we have those two pieces

Of information then we have the spirit the spiritual things we need to push the
devil out do you also find out why how he entered why he and unnecessarily
sometimes that comes out and what not the devil will protest and tell us why he's
bothering a certain person but for the most part the devil tries to find things and
he's a master of lies so you have to also have to filter out what's going on and
many times for example the first thing I'm greeted with

An exorcism as the other X's are - what are you doing here I hate you thank you
very much I know I'm in the right place when that happens confirmation that you're
buying your old foe but but seriously you know it is a confirmation of such and it
is an indication that it's not just a playful spirit there it's it said one of the
demons themselves that are there and we ask for the hour and the date of their
departure so that they know they're going to have

To leave this has to be an exhausting process for you is it actually no really um I

can tired after it but I don't find it exhausting meaning oh I wish I never did
that right or oh I'm not going to do this anymore but I find in it a spiritual
experience of working with Jesus and the in the elimination of an evil spirit I
know some exorcists you know say they lose something every time they do an exorcism
but I feel that way I gain something I
Gain the greater strength of the of Jesus within me and for this reason perhaps I
get the more hateful remarks from the devil all the time but at any rate it's Jesus
who does it not mean Father your personal experience you have battled Satan what
what was the most surprising case in your in your more than twenty years now as an
exorcist well no no no only five years five years old I've been working on local
problems and core problems since 1973 but I've

Only been an exorcist since 1995 all very good okay um what was the most surprising
case during that time for you well I think the case where I met Beelzebub and it
was in the person who was trouble for many years and by the grace of God I was the
one to discover he has above there and he's still there we haven't got rid of him
yet but we're working on it are some demons more powerful than others they're more
persistent they're more

Powerful in the sense that's Satan himself if he were to come Lucifer is this also
Satan but Beelzebub the Prince of demons is a very - a very difficult one to
dislodge hmm and he is particularly unhappy when he sees me and I don't say that
out of look how important I am but you know the power of the priesthood that's what
I see and it's that which he sees and he's like I have these experiences made hell
and Satan more real for you a lot of people

Think of think of Satan and hell as theoretical concepts some say it doesn't exist
that's very true when I've you know I run up against that every now and then - but
in my own way of thinking you know hell has become very much more real and of
course having encounters with the devil both in Word and in action sometimes has
certainly showed me that he's very much around these days and very much into trying
to bring people

Down and it's I guess you might say it's very discouraging at times when you see
how many people can fall for the wilds and weakness of the devil and so again you
know I feel as you know God God has blessed me and being able to fight this
particular battle you you're never afraid when you go in I mean my goodness if I
saw someone there with this deep voice superhuman strength some describe a stench
in the room that's got to be eerie and frightening on a human level

Well it's eerie certainly but you know again I am
me that is fighting the devil not little-o me and
the archbishop with the tools that the church has
things do work father we have any email why would
with weak faith when he already has them wouldn't
devout faith
a priest and it is the priest in
therefore with the mandate from
given us I have faith that these
the devil want to possess someone
he want to possess someone with a

Thanks David from Portland Oregon what would you say to that well good question
what's the answer well twofold one the devil wants to get as many souls as possible
and so to up his number he'll work on the people with weak faith but he also works
on people with strong faith in the hopes that he can change them hopes that he can
get them to despair or to turn over to the to the side of evil so he works on both
but often times he doesn't bother the people

With weak faith too much because that's no fun is there protection for people for
the faithful Catholic for the faithful Christian watching is there something they
can do to protect themselves from demonic attack well of course and the very first
thing we have is our Catholic faith we have the Blessed Sacrament reception of
communion and if we're leading a good Catholic life good Christian life because I
don't want to exclude non Catholics either we

Are filled with the Holy Spirit and if the Holy Spirit is within our heart and soul
there's no place for the devil this is John from Connecticut you're on the world
over live what's your question John first of all I'd like to say I appreciate
father lavars work and God bless him for it thank you very much and I was wondering
if he sees anything during the exorcism right in the Bible the devil is described
with horns a hoof cloven horns a hoof cloven hoofs and a

Tail excuse me I'm nervous okay the devil obviously is not a spiritual male but a
spiritual male and Saul imal says how he is made lowly er than the beef right
father I suspect what what John is after there's are there physical manifestations
of the devil have you seen any indications of how he appears or how how have you
how does he appear do you ever have much of our concept of the devil is is borne by
art and such the tail the horn right

Involving hopes and oftentimes people who are possessed have reported seeing the
devil manifest himself with the face of a goat with the the body of an animal in
the face of a goat or they'll mention the horns they'll mention the detail and such
but for what it's worth I have never seen anything like that I've heard a lot of
things but the devil thank the Lord has never appeared to me and I hope he doesn't
father do you think in many ways these these depictions and our

Popular idea of what the devil looks like our deceptions because they allow us to
then disbelieve the normal way the devil operates in our everyday lives through
temptations and other ways well certainly some of the more unusual movies and such
have given us a picture which is not exactly true The Exorcist movie The Lost Souls
movie are good representations there's also another one called possessed which is
on Showtime now right but you get something like the

Omen or stigmata or some of these movies they mix up things so that there is a
false picture even though there's elements of correctness there there's a little
bit of false element there and one of the things and I can't pinpoint on any one of
those right but the force one of the false things would be that of despair there is
always hope it is true that if a person is possessed they are 10 tending very much
to despair and not being able to be helped or anyway but

God can always help and I think that's one of the mistakes some of the media
presentations make on the other hand you can have a little thing like the devil and
Daniel Webster where my cells is sold to the devil and over life and eventually the
devil loses so that's fine okay so there are many things to look at but the main
thing is the devil is out to gain somebody so put them into bring to hell so he can
claim another soul away from God

Here's an email father dear world over live our diseases such as alcoholism and
drug abuse in a person do they indicate some sort of demonic oppression thanks Joe
from Philadelphia well as far as I can determine the physical illnesses and such do
not indicate the presence of the devil what can happen however though the devil can
make the illnesses in a person as a means by which he is taunting them just trying
to bring them down and such and to give you one case do I have time

To tell you a little careful one situation that I I never saw the persons but I
dealt with the persons on the phone and there was a case of severe AIDS I am HIV
positive and the person was in the hospital dying and the mother was able to find
out that the person had made the pact with the devil we got her to renew the
Baptist the person to renew the baptismal promises to renounce Satan his evil works
and all that and to make a long story short we finished 364 days

In 23 hours and 53 minutes before the pact was up just before midnight Oh at
midnight I wasn't there but the mother called me told me that excuse the expression
all hell broke loose and all the machines in the ICU and everything went cuckoo and
they pulled the plugs out they were still making noise and all this so and so
everybody came running and reset everything but the person who was concerned here
those they couldn't stop even they pull the plugs out

Finally everything calmed down the next morning the doctor came and said to the
mother you can take your daughter home now she's okay the AIDS was gone the HIV was
gone she was okay and she went home father loved art for me what this really does
though is highlight the reality the supernatural reality that perhaps many would
like to deny or in fact do deny that I can testify to 100% because when there is a
provocation or when there is a manifestation it's real father another

Email he dear world over live hi and thanks for an interesting show father and
Raymond how could a holy man like Padre Pio be attacked as he was by the devil god
bless and thank you Lynn well I was at a kerf oh there's the other side of things
the devil goes after people he can gain for his own kingdom you might say but then
he's also going to annoy to a very serious degree at times those people that are
doing good in the world

And priests sisters brothers parents social workers any anybody at all if they are
doing good to keep evil out of things the devil is going to be on their case and
somebody like padre pio or the curiae of ours for example Saint John Vianney he was
greatly bothered by the devil he'd been as bad as bad would shake at night he'd
hear pebbles on the window and there'd be nobody there throwing them and one time
he was even the bed in the bed started to spin

Around and around in in the room the guest house that he was in and the two priests
came up see what was going on and they said father if you wanted the bed move to
the middle why didn't you come in out ask us he said I didn't do it all graben did
and I was assigned for him that a great sinner would be coming the something the
devil works in many many ways and the Cure or at all his faith and hope and love
and as we know from the gospel love conquers all let me

Know what you thought of tonight's show and which of our interviews you'd like to
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Minister John O'Sullivan on behalf of the staff and crew of EWTN news I'm Raymond
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