Speaker 1:

All right, I think we are all good with the recording. Now, today's interview is a semi-structured
interview. There's only about five questions but they're very open-ended with the goal of really kind of
getting a bit of conversation going. If any of the questions don't make sense, please tell me, you know,
and let me know if anything is unclear. Before we get into the questions, there's a few biographical
details that I just needed to get from you as well and I'll run through that as quickly as possible. Alright,
so first thing, your age?

Speaker 2:
I am 30. I'm literally next week turning 39, so yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, we'll put you down as 38 still.

Speaker 2:
Sure.

Speaker 1:
And your gender identification?

Speaker 2:
Female, I’m a straight female, very boring.

Speaker 1:
And then ethnicity or cultural group?

Speaker 2:
Miscellaneous pacquiao, I'm South African originally.

Speaker 1:
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, more stealthy than yourself but yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, I'm not picking up on the accent at all.

Speaker 2:
No. From Devin, long time ago though, very long.
Speaker 1:
Have you been here since childhood?

Speaker 2:
14.

Speaker 1:
14.

Speaker 2:
So yeah. So we've been here like what, 25 years then?

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
So we'll put you down as Pacquiao, originally from [inaudible]. All right, do you hold any additional
vocational registration apart from clinical?

Speaker 2:
No, oh, sorry [inaudible] sorry, you mean within psychology?

Speaker 1:
Within psychology, yes.

Speaker 2:
Oh, yeah, I've got the neuropsych scope, yeah. Sorry, I thought you meant like other, yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. Yeah. And then any vocational registration in any other country apart from New Zealand?

Speaker 2:
No.

Speaker 1:
Okay. How many years have you been in practice since graduation or completing your internship?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, so since completing internship, I think this would be, I'm entering my seventh year, so I've
completed six years.

Speaker 1:
And in which country did you qualify as a clinical psychologist?
Speaker 2:
For New Zealand, I studied here and I practiced only here.

Speaker 1:
Okay. And that means you've also worked in New Zealand for about seven years. Okay. In which sector
do you work primarily? So with Laura Ferguson, that's going to be.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, so that's physical injury and brain injury so predominantly brain injury. But that ranges everything
from a concussion to a severe injury and then spinal injuries and some; I'm under TI Psych services
concussion and neuropsych contracts.

Speaker 1:
All right. Good context, thank you. And does your work include direct client or patient contact?

Speaker 2:
Yep.

Speaker 1:
Teaching academia?

Speaker 2:
Not heaps.

Speaker 1:
Not heaps?

Speaker 2:
No.

Speaker 1:
And supervision?

Speaker 2:
I'm not providing supervision at the moment to anybody.

Speaker 1:
Okay. And then any kind of leadership or management as part of your, your position?

Speaker 2:
No, not really know.

Speaker 1:
All right, and anything else that I might have missed, that would form a primary component of your
position?

Speaker 2:
I don't know if it counts separately because we kind of do a lot of assessment work and a lot of therapy
work so report writing is a lot of my life at the moment. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Especially on the contracts that you service, yeah.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, so and I guess in terms of like, you know, so you, you do a lot of, you know, you're working with
the client, but you're still quite a lot of working with the team around the client some, there are some
clients I don't even see but I'm still in the TI team because the client doesn't want or can't benefit from
psychology, but the team need that. Yeah, and like if you have a rehab coach, you technically supervise
the rehab coach, so it's a bit of that.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So it's almost liaison based work with the wider IDT and then supervision of rehab coaches.

Speaker 2:
We do a small amount of key working, but we tend to avoid that as a role.

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 2:
And yeah, I mean, you do talks and trainings for other, for the, you know, for each other and for wider
disciplines, but yeah, just not, you know, so it's a very, it's a relatively well considered minor component.

Speaker 1:
Okay. Excellent. Alright, so that's what I need from you Biographically. So I'll start with the first question.
Who are you as a clinical psychologist?

Speaker 2:
I mean, that's super broad, isn't it?
So are you looking for just, I guess how we see, how I would see myself in that role?

Speaker 1:
How would you see yourself in that role?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean, it's just a very difficult question. It is so open that it's like, which direction to take it and it's
not obvious. Because I think it depends, you're a number of different things, but it depends on what's
needed. I guess I see myself as someone who can take a holistic viewpoint of whatever someone is
coming with and try to adapt. You know, for example, if somebody comes with a clear obvious need for
psychology, you know, you just do your assessment as you know how to do it, and you provide what you
can. And those are very straightforward, but there are many times when someone comes to see you and
they don't know what they need or other people don't know what they need, but they don't know what
they don't know how to provide it, and they send you that person as a bit of a hail Mary. And so there's
a lot of different ways I think that you, I think I see myself as someone who can really pause and listen to
whatever's coming and try to find a way to enable people. But you know exactly how you do that is,
yeah.
I'd like to see myself probably as somebody who's, I guess, you know, you try to be a bit knowledgeable
about some things and try to provide information and advice when it's necessary, but I almost feel like
that's not the biggest part of what we do.

Speaker 1:
That's great, so few questions from my side based on, what you've said. So the first thing is that you
mentioned that it depends on the context that you're coming from. What did you mean by that?

Speaker 2:
I guess it depends what people need and what they ask for and so I guess if a colleague comes to you,
you're a person who can debrief and listen and hold the space and, you know, or if somebody comes to
you and there's a problem to solve, you could be a problem solver. But if there's somebody who comes
to you and, you know, there's no problem to solve, they just need you to listen, you know, then you're a
listener so I think who you are and how you respond very, like, very so wildly, like depending on
situation.

Speaker 1:
So you mentioned two different people there if I heard you correctly. A colleague, which is a very
specific role and then different people again.

Speaker 2:
Some different clients who you might see, you know, and then families. You know, and I guess to a
family member, you often are somebody who's trying to, the psychologist in the room is trying to make
them feel like there's someone who knows where this is going, someone who's seen it before, and it's
gonna be all right somehow, like, you know, so in that sense, I guess you would see yourself as like a
guide or a container of a situation that other people are finding quite overwhelming and so yeah, it
really depends, you know, to the client. Maybe you are trying to be, you know, see myself as someone
who could be a confidant to them or to a, you know, or a person to help navigate things.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So it depends on the person sitting in front of you in terms of how you express that role. Are
there other contexts that also influence how you would express the role as a clinical psychologist?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean, you know, we did touch on like doing talks and sharing in like a more professional identity
then, you know, you would be a knowledgeable person who's sharing information or insight or
perspective that they may not have already so that's a very different, but I guess I don't take an expert
role as often with a client as I would in professional relationships.

Speaker 1:
Why is that?

Speaker 2:
I don't know how helpful it is. Just don't know. I guess you get a sense of what people find valuable and
what they respond to and what they benefit from and like, yes, there are definitely times when
someone literally wants you to give them advice or knowledge or something, that's in my feeling, it
hasn't been as often as they just want you to understand, and yeah, be with that sort of thing.

Speaker 1:
So it sounds like the way that you would express yourself would also be context driven. Sometimes
expressing yourself more as a knowledgeable person. I almost want to use the word expert there.

Speaker 2:
Sure.

Speaker 1:
Correct me if I'm wrong. And then sometimes connecting with a person.

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
How do you see those two components fit within the role of a clinical psychologist? How do you see
them coexist?

Speaker 2:
Well, I think people are open to receiving knowledge or expert stuff if they have the connection and if
you don't have the connection, it doesn't matter. You could tell them, it's not, you know, yeah, you kind
of need to get to a point where they value your opinion and input enough to actually want it or to think
that it will have, you know, and that there's, I guess an amount of, you know, it would be very
invalidating to simply receive, you know, solutions straight out the gate and yeah, so I don't think they're
mutually exclusive at all, but it's, and to be honest, sometimes it's very helpful to be exploring with
somebody. I've got a client, who has F and D, and it's been very, very difficult for her to manage and
she's receiving so many different professional opinions that conflict and we've just been learning
together instead of me trying to tell her something. So I'm almost trying to take a, you know, I guess a
naive role in some ways like not completely like I certainly, if I know something, I know it, but, you know,
which are the answers for her in this muddy field.
We're just trying to learn together.

Speaker 1:
So it's about adjusting the way that you engage with someone.

Speaker 2:
I think that's probably the primary thing really, isn't it? Is the flexibility that you have is probably, yeah, a
key part.

Speaker 1:
So being a clinical psychologist is being flexible.

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Is adjusting the way that you en engage with someone based on their needs.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, and their abilities and where they're at, you know, and I would not talk to somebody the same
way who's got a severe brain injury, who's very impaired as I would to the high functioning person with
a, you know, concussion and you just a different, you know. Yeah, not just on your, you know, cognitive
abilities, but also age and, you know, like trying to fit I think.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, you mentioned the word you just did different, I was curious about where you were going to go
with that sentence.

Speaker 2:
Oh, sorry, I forgot already what I said.

Speaker 1:
You said something in the line of you are just a different and then continued on to another sentence, I
was curious about what you were gonna say.

Speaker 2:
I honestly can't remember, but I guess thinking about that, I think it's different to many other
professions, which you know, I'm everyone's valuable in the team, I'm, but I think that different people
have some professions are much more specific in what they provide and I think that psychology has
scope to be a bit broader and more holistic in its viewpoint.

Speaker 1:
Broader and more holistic around what?

Speaker 2:
Well, I mean I'm not medical, right? I'm not that kind of doctor, but I still ask people about the medical
side and try to integrate it with their, how they, you know, feeling emotionally, how they're doing
cognitively, their physical side, what they're doing with each of the other professionals, how they're
finding that, whether they're capable. And I think you're trying to look at so many different aspects and
bring them together whereas, I do feel like a lot of people come to you with six different reports that are
extremely siled, and they've, you know, they've got the leak doctor who's given them this, and the
psychiatrist has given them that, and there's nobody doing an overview.

Speaker 1:
So being a clinical psychologist is about integration?

Speaker 2:
Yes. Oh, very much, yeah. Holistic views and integration, yeah. And that it's extremely important to me
that the client is in a, you know, that we have some shared, some common viewpoint, which I don't
think it always is for other, you know, I mean, I'm literally going to the physio straight after this, and I
don't think it's very important that my viewpoint be, you know. I just want him to tell you what to do
and I'll do it, you know? It's a bit more prescriptive and that's what I expect and that's what I want, and I
think it's appropriate in that setting, you know, whereas I think it's different for us.

Speaker 1:
So less prescriptive and more collaborative?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 1:
So I suppose that, that's great and in terms of kind of talking about our scoping broader and more
integrative in terms of focus, I was curious about what you think further differentiates psychologists
from other professions?

Speaker 2:
Do you mean other, like, parallel professions, like counseling or psychiatry?

Speaker 1:
Doesn't matter, it's a very open question.

Speaker 2:
Very open. Is this your second question?

Speaker 1:
Not my second question, yes, we're not on the differentiation.

Speaker 2:
Alright. I mean, you know, you have a different training set, but you probably also have some different
personality factors that predispose you to psychology, I don’t know.
Speaker 1:
I'm interested in that. What do you mean personality factors that predispose and obviously you don't
have to go into great detail, you know, for you personally, but I suppose interested in your viewpoint
from that perspective.

Speaker 2:
I mean, you have to; I would say most psychologists have a baseline level of curiosity, openness, and
nosiness. You know a desire to get stuck in and find out stuff. But also I guess a capacity for tolerating
difficult emotions that many people might find very uncomfortable. I would say overall, like most
psychologists probably do see themselves as being like, you know as very committed and driven in their
work, you know, even it's difficult; I would say that's common.

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 2:
And you would struggle if you weren't.

Speaker 1:
All right, and when I introduced the question around other professions, you immediately went to maybe
counselors or psychotherapists or psychiatry, curious how you would see the differentiation between a
clinical psychologist and other parallel professions? Or even if we think about psychologists, the
difference between a counseling psychologist or a clinical psychologist and a neuropsychologist versus a
clinical psychologist so curious to hear your viewpoint from that perspective as well.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I don't think you, I don't think there has to, I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about
how different you're going to be, to be honest, I think you get shaped as much by your subsequent
experience as you did by your training. So I wouldn't make too many assumptions about exactly how
similar or dissimilar you would be. I don't think there is something that a difference that starts to
develop if you are predominantly assessment versus, or predominantly therapy. I do think there does
seem to be a difference. Assessment is a lot more reserved and I don't have to share much of myself, I'm
simply taking it all and writing it up as I see it. Whereas I think, you know so I think there becomes a little
bit of a separation between maybe a very scientific, very, you know, professional type of persona that
you can get if you are very heavily on assessment and a different sort of maybe looser, but maybe more
empathic vibe that you can get if you are predominantly therapy, that's just my opinion, I have nothing
to hang that on other than my observations.

Speaker 1:
And, that's exactly what I'm after is your opinion.

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Perfect. Alright. Let's make a move on to the second question. What makes you a clinical psychologist?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you can't call yourself one without the training and I do think you need
the training to start the journey, but I certainly didn't feel like I embodied the role for the first few years.
I think there is something about the actual experience and the work that then shapes you in return. So I
think the experiences you have doing the work make you clinical psychologist.

Speaker 1:
And thinking about those experiences, what would be necessary to make you a clinical psychologist?
Which experiences would you see as fundamental as part of that process?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think there's something about when someone comes into the room, it's like you both mutually
agree to buy into this myth that you are a person who heals people and is knowledgeable and sage, and
that you will find your way together, and if you don't buy into that, you are not effective so you have to
like leave.

Speaker 1:
All right.

Speaker 2:
I don't know, I think there's a component of that, you know, that it's not necessarily, that it's seated in
our culture, that we believe in this process, you know, the trust, the process thing, and that you know,
and I think that you have to suspend the part of you that has doubts about yourself, I mean, I'm not, not
that you don't still question your practice and reflect and work, but I think you have to recognize what it
means to the other person for you to be confident and comfortable and to hear whatever they have to
say and be present with that, and that seeing how that is helpful to them and seeing how they respond
to that, I think is part of it. You sort of move into this space where that's what is sort of required.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, you mentioned there that you have to buy into this myth, that's all almost culturally mandated,
that is, am I under understanding that?

Speaker 2:
[Inaudible] I don't think it's in every culture that you talk to complete random, you know, complete
stranger about you, that's it, I feel like that's quite a [inaudible] thing, that you go and speak to someone
you don't know and that is somehow better and easier than speaking to someone you do know. And
that you form this very firm boundary type of relationship that doesn't exist in outside of therapy really.

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 2:
You know, where you cannot be friends, you know, and you can't, you know, there will be all these
boundaries and this is how it will be, and that is the way that things should go.

Speaker 1:
So the way that you engage in relationship.
Speaker 2:
I’m not wrong or right, but I think it's just a way that we do things.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
And I think people who, our [inaudible], how they come with that same script.

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 2:
But people who are maybe not [inaudible] have a different idea and you have to work to share a
common idea of it.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So on the one hand it's almost a socially constructed role you know, handed down within a
specific cultural context and both you and the other person needs to buy into it. Banya, you still there?
Banya? Are you still there? Banya, can you hear me?

Speaker 2:
Yes, I can hear you now. I don’t know why?

Speaker 1:
It just dropped out, my apologies. I can't see you now; I've got you on my screen twice. There we go.

Speaker 2:
We're good now?

Speaker 1:
We're good, alright.

Speaker 2:
Oh, sorry, I didn't catch what? Oh gosh, that's weird.

Speaker 1:
What's happening?
Speaker 2:
We are in a forest. I'm just going to go back to gallery mode. Okay, that's [inaudible].

Speaker 1:
I'll be out of the forest.

Speaker 2:
We're out of the forests. Okay, odd.

Speaker 1:
Alright, apologies for the dropout there. So I suppose we are still busy with that question around what
makes you a clinical psychologist and it sounds like a culturally prescribed role that both people need to
buy into, it's quite specific to a more westernized approach. You also mentioned that part of the role is
kind of questioning reflection as well. Is there anything else that, and obviously the training component
as well; is there anything else that you would want to note as something that would make you a clinical
psychologist?

Speaker 2:
Well, I guess it's a capacity to understand and empathize with a range of experiences and emotions and
to be able to integrate, you know, I guess as, you know, the scientist practitioner model, but to be able
to integrate the experiences and the knowledge base, and do that n real time, I guess with somebody.

Speaker 1:
Okay, excellent. Anything else you wanna add there or are you happy to move on to the next question?
Perfect. Alright, next question, hopefully this makes sense, let's see how we go. What maintains and
influences who you are as a clinical psychologist?

Speaker 2: I actually think in terms of maintaining, you actually have to do that intentionally and with,
and continuously. I think if you do not have a plan, it would eventually, I think there would be trouble in
your, yeah.

Speaker 1:
When you say a plan, what do you mean?

Speaker 2:
I think on each level, you have to have a plan like how do I manage and integrate and understand what
I'm hearing from people so that you don't become cynical and burnt out or distant or you have to be
aware of that side and where am I going professionally? What, how do I learn more? How do I continue
to grow? How do I keep up to date? How do I connect with my peers? How do I, I think you need a plan
for each of those aspects of your professional identity. Because there is a flavor where I am here and
often I think I feel it's like a treadmill and if you slow down, you will fall off and you have to have this,
you know, allocated space for that staff otherwise it will never read the top of your priority list.

Speaker 1:
 So it sounds like in terms of professional identity, you are highlighting that there's that personal
component and there's more professional component. The personal component needs a level of self
care and the professional component requires a level of, I suppose professional development.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Am I getting that right?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think that's fair, yeah.

Speaker 1:
Okay, on the personal side, what maintains you as a clinical psychologist?

Speaker 2:

I mean, do you mean in like a nuts and bolts sort of what do you do sort of way or do you mean in a
theoretical sort of way?

Speaker 1:
Whichever way you wanna answer.

Speaker 2:
Okay.

Speaker 1:
I'm a very unhelpful interviewer, I apologize.

Speaker 2:
No, it's okay, I mean, I guess periodically, I do sort of step back and think, I mean, especially through the
whole covid situation, which has been quite draining, you know, trying to think of where am I in life and
what do I need to do for me, and you know, people often ask so, oh, don't you hear miserable stuff all
the time? And, you know, and I'm like, well, yes, but I think the fact that you get to be, you're not just a
complete listener in that situation, you are speaking to people with the intent to help and to find
through. I think that helps it to not become bogged down and cynical. So both what you're doing outside
of work, but also what you're doing inside of work and how you manage that.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So it sounds like that intent to help is really important in terms of kind of maintaining that identity.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, well, I think if you receive staff, you know, you do hear pretty difficult things quite often and
people are in these horrible situations or have been, and I think if you felt like you could do nothing to
help, then it would just traumatize you. You would just feel miserable and hopeless and helpless, and if
you start to feel that way that, you know, things are not going well, yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, so part of the identity is feeling like you are able to help you on level to do something alongside
the person.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I guess it's a combination of self-efficacy, but also, and maybe belief in the research, but also
maybe just a, you know, the trusting of the process that there's some value in what we do. Because it
doesn't always feel obviously valuable.

Speaker 1:
And how do you deal with that in from, I suppose an identity perspective, how do you manage that?
Where it doesn't feel like it in the moment, it doesn't feel helpful?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I actually think that’s where having been out a few years has helped because I've actually seen
people where you've had, where you really feel like you've gained your head on a brick rapport or you
feel like you've had just this really tough session, but then they come back and say, oh, that made sense
to me and I felt so much better afterwards or not, but you actually feel like you don't always know. And
there is something about seeing the process through and seeing what comes next week, that is still
worth doing.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, so trusting the process but being comfortable with not knowing?

Speaker 2:
Yeah. Because you have to, and if you can't, then tough.

Speaker 1:
It's going to be quite difficult to practice then.

Speaker 2:
Well, I guess that also is one of the things that we do as a profession, you know, so that we do hold a lot
of uncertainty that maybe other people would prefer not to.

Speaker 1:
Okay. And if we think about it, you know, kind of maintaining your role from a professional perspective,
how, what do you see as part of that?

Speaker 2:
Oh, I mean, you know, I'm part of NZCCP, NZ sign, frankly NPS< and you know, collegial debrief and
supervision and I'm also mentoring somebody, which is not very, it's a very low grade thing, like you
meet a couple of times a year, so it's not but, you know, and, and I did previously supervise an intern, I
think that's also something I'm, you know, always looking at my sort of training opportunities and trying
to build a cohesive plan of filling out. Somebody said when we were graduating, and I've, it's always
stuck with me, modern [inaudible], the idea of having islands of competence and maybe forming a little
archipelago. And that's been something I've kind of worked with a lot, you know, you try to think of like,
well, I'm competent in this area, what can I add? Where can I go?

Speaker 1:
So it's a very nice analogy. So, you know, kind of surrounded by an ocean, but then having these specific
components that you can say, yeah, here I know what I'm, what I'm doing. What I was curious about and
was the and maybe it was a bit of a throwaway comment, but the comment around NPSs, why NPS is
part of the process?

Speaker 2:
Well, one reason is that they give you six free psychology sessions, if you ask them, which I did use, and
they were very helpful. But also because I've, you know, been doing a lot of these big neuropsyches and
people are not always happy with the outcome. You know, I've had a far higher number of people failing
effort testing than I thought I was going to, and, you know, feeding back, look, you don't have a brain
injury, I think this is functional or you don't have a brain injury. And I can't say exactly why, because the
burden of proof for malingering is very high, and after somebody, you know, basically had not a formal
complaint, but was very upset by the content, it made me quite stressed about it, and I have found
having NPS cover deescalates my stress.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So it's about that ability to have uncomfortable conversations from time to time.

Speaker 2:
Yeah. I've got fair number of those, yeah.

Speaker 1:
Okay.

Speaker 2:
But I don't feel very worried about going into them.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. Okay. All right. Now are you ready to move on to the next question? Alright. So what makes you a
clinical psychologist on a societal group? Organizational and or individual level, so again, a very broad
question, but curious about those different layers.

Speaker 2:
On a societal level, honestly, I haven't really inhabited much of the role there. I see others like other
clinic psyches doing things like trying to influence health or social policy or, you know, people's
understanding awareness and knowledge and I restate that and I think it's great, but I haven't really
done that much. And I don't really; I don't know if people wanna chat at a social event, you know which
they often do. I'm happy to do that but I don't really, it's not, I don't know. I haven't really gone for being
a clean psych in the world very much.

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 2:
Personally, yeah. On an organizational level, I do think, you know, it's all those things, I think we've kind
of already covered that about, you know, how I see that and then on an individual level, I think it's
almost tricky because there's almost this parallel process of you struggling with your own life needs,
wants, identities, ups, downs and whatever. And then, you know, deciding how much of that, you know,
your own experience gets to be part of your work and your space and trying to have appropriate
boundaries that serve your client.

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 2:
Without being totally ridiculous.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So it's about negotiating boundaries and negotiating your personal life, with your professional life.

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Okay. Now you said something really beautifully, not being a clinical psychologist in the world and I was
curious about that, what does that mean to you? Is it someone who's in a leadership position? Is it
someone who acts outside of the therapy room? How would you see that?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I guess in, I've almost sort of tried to just not have people always like, yeah, I don't know, there's a
subset of people who when you meet them and they, and you, they're like, oh, what do you do? And
you say, I'm a psychologist, and they're like, oh, so are you analyzing everything I say? And I'm like,
actually, no. Really, really not in fact, I run out of the capacity to do that at four o'clock. And, you know,
and it just really isn't, and I actually, you know, sometimes I think, so for example, my partner might
have excessive expectations of how understanding and be it, you know, tough I would be.

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 2:
 I'm like, hey, I'm off the clock and I'm not your strength like this is not how this is.

Speaker 1:
Okay, that's a really good reflection because I suppose part of what I'm interested in with that question
is how you are constructed within society? And it sounds like, you know, socially there's this idea of you
analyzing people when you go into a situation. And I want to empathize with that as well because I lie to
people quite often about what I do, just simply because it's easier, you know.

Speaker 2:
People visibly relax if you say you're a neuropsychologist because they're like, oh cool, I don't need one
of those.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah. Well, they ask you what that is.

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, but with a cleanse site there, there's definitely that kind of idea of being analyzed or having to be
empathic or having to embody the specific persona a hundred percent of the time.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, and I guess I've distanced myself from feeling the need to do that because I just don't, I'm like, no,
I'm literally just a person in my own time. And that's not strictly true because I mean, I'm not a person
who gets into trouble really anyway. But I do feel like if you were, you would have to watch, you know, I
do feel like they probably are slightly higher standards for your, and they probably literally, those are
like, the board expects you to keep your nose clean and, you know, I would never consider, I mean, you
know, it's not much of a departure from her how I am anyway but I never considered driving drunk or
like, you know, during anything dodgy because you were just, it would impact your credibility and your
role.

Speaker 1:
So there a bit of a fusion between personal identity and professional identity, and the two reciprocal
influence one another.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think that's true and I think that on one hand, like there are some things that would just be seen
as unacceptable, but there are a range of things that I think are almost to embrace, you know, that like if
you struggle with stuff, you know, if you have tough times or crises of your own, I think that's as long,
you know, as long as it doesn't impair you or if it did, you took time out. But that you, that those actually
very much acceptable parts to me, I think, yeah, and that people probably find those helpful.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So again, that kind of negotiation is really evident, all right. Then I'm gonna move on to the last
question. And we probably have covered this a little bit in some of the previous questions, but gonna ask
it in any case and just let's see what comes out of it. How do you see your role as a clinical psychologist?
What is your role as a clinical psychologist?

Speaker 2:
I mean, in a nuts and bolts sense, I guess it's assessment and treatment and advice, you know, collegial
sort of is brought for other people's, you know, other people's input with a client but I guess you have a
role as a guide sort of thing I guess or a person to help people explore for themselves, that sort of thing I
guess, yeah.

Speaker 1:
And it sounds like you conceptualized that role very much one-on-one or one on small group.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's probably true, yeah. I guess that's the, been the context I've worked and yeah, I've run
groups and I've done family stuff and I've, yeah, that has been more or less that.

Speaker 1:
All right. Anything else that you think might be important for me to chart down around professional
identity or your thoughts around professional identity for turn psyches?

Speaker 2:
I'd be very curious to see what other people say, like what your summary is like; did you have
something in mind about what you were expecting to kind of?

Speaker 1:
No, the research is actually incredibly limited around professional identity for plain psyches, most of the
research that I did for my literature review, for example, was really based on pulling teeth from the
different papers where I could find it. It's less limited for counseling sakes than for Glen psyches. I think
the last paper that I found that was really written around professional identity from the perspective of
this is what it looks like to be a Glen Psych was done in the sixties if I remember correctly. So in between
things have evolved and the world has evolved, and there's lots of different pressures on us to do things
differently and to behave differently. So curious to see how people think of themselves and how we
think of ourselves as a group from that perspective as well.

Speaker 2:
I wonder if it will be influenced by maybe a feeling like we shouldn't be almost ourselves, shouldn't be
in the room. You know, I don't know if other people feel that way, but I definitely think there's an idea. I
don't know if I sort of felt it maybe in training that you are not, it's not about you, it's about the client,
pt's about their needs and what they're bringing and whatnot but how can you have that, you know, I
don't know if you saw that one that talk that recently that somebody did over zoom about the
personality disorders, and he pointed out that specifically narcissistic personality. That he was, he took,
pointed out the research about how there is no identity other than in relation to others. And so if you
are the other in that room for that other person's identity, what you bring cannot be removed, you
know, and so you are better off being aware of it rather than denying it, but it's I wonder if people might
have a sense of shame almost about how much of themselves they are, or I don't know, I think it'd be
interesting to know if people, you know, bring, yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. It's definitely one of the things that were mentioned in the research around having you turned at
boundaries or limits in terms of how you engage with people. Which is really interesting if you kind of
think about it from a bicultural perspective when this is part of a doctor of health science degree and
when I did my there's some coursework associated with it, which is why I wanted to do it; I'm far too
lazy to do a PhD. So when I did the coursework component, there was a physiotherapist, a Maori
physiotherapist who spoke to us about professionalism and how professionalism is seen very differently
from a Maori perspective and it is essentially bringing yourself before you take from someone else kind
of thing.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, well, this is kind of what I was at half this, you know, we have this idea and [inaudible] you are
stranger whereas as you say other cultures will expect you to be prison and be yourself but, yes.

Speaker 1:
Okay, cool, beans, any last comments that I need to write down?

Speaker 2:
It occurs to me when you mentions about doing a doctorate in terms of the identity stuff. I never use
the title doctor, almost never unless I'm going into battle on a report or something and I want to, you
know, like I want ACC to approve something and I want to seem bigger than I am. So it's funny that,
yeah, like that is not part of my identity, the actual like title.

Speaker 1:
Why?

Speaker 2:
I think it's just weird.

Speaker 1:
Okay.

Speaker 2:
Why don't you prescribed? Why can't you look at my weird rash? I don't know, it's not, I don't know so
it's just not, yeah. I think it's almost a barrier rather than a, yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, so I mean I know that you said this tongue-in-cheek but the one component of it is to be a proper
doctor, you have to prescribe, you have to see animals or you have to see human beings for a specific
physical element, where for us, that's not what we do, and the second part of that is, it’s a barrier in and
of itself.

Speaker 2:
 I think, yeah, it's not more disparity even than you, you know, in the power dynamic than when I feel
like it's very important to leave all the power dynamic as much as possible. And I feel like dropping the
doctor is part of that.

Speaker 1:
And also using it when it is indicated.

Speaker 2:
When I'm going into that for somebody [inaudible], you know, if say I'm disagreeing with somebody
else and I want someone to be entitled to something or if I if I ask for people to have special
considerations of uni, I'm always doctor.

Speaker 1:
[Inaudible] advocacy as well in terms of clients.

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
I suppose it tends to give a sense of authority.

Speaker 2:
Who knows, I don't know, no one ever tells you, it's just something I thought might work.

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 2:
It seems to work.

Speaker 1:
All right. Excellent, Banya, thank you very much for your time, I appreciate it.

Speaker 2:
Yeah. I'm super keen to get your summary, you know, when you do it.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, I need to hand in September next year so I'm hoping to get the summary out probably about
March.

Speaker 2:
Oh, okay, good for you.

Speaker 1:
For this part, and then the color, I will send to your email address, it's just a shopping, a supermarket
voucher.
Speaker 2:
Oh, thank you, that's very sweet, yeah.

Speaker 1:
Thank you.

Speaker 2:
No worries, best of luck.

Speaker 1:
Thank you, and thank you for being my first guinea pig, and good luck with the physique.

Speaker 2:
All right, I hope it was all right and not too roundly because I don't really have anything like anything
prepared.

Speaker 1:
I think it was perfect, thank you very much, all right, take care. Bye-bye