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(/member/-max-/) Follow Asked 4 years ago by -max- (/member/-max-/) in Circuits (/circuits/community/)

8 310 Views | 21 Replies

The classic IRFP250N vs FDP33N25? Which one is best for

high power SMPS? Answered
I have an idea to start selling some powermax singing arc
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMiPV2YZHo8) kits. In the kit I plan to include all the
parts including a printed PCB to create an audio modulated yback driver. I gure to start
o with, since I have no clue what demand would be, I want to play it safe and only get
enough parts for 10 - 25 quantity, which works out to be about $40, or about $4 a piece,
not including custom PCBs. However, at >$2, the IRFP250 is not cheap even in 10's of
quantities on Digikey.

Looking to shave o pennies, I found the FDP33N25 for about half the cost of the classic
IRFP250N and best part is that it appears to have simalar specs, and in some ways it looks
like the FDP33N25 is even better! Bolded parameters are the (I think) prefered values. I do
not know much about selecting the best transistor for the job, but I did compare the specs
below:

IRFP250N (http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfp250.pdf ): 85mΩ Rds ON,

30A, 200Vds, 2800pf gate capacitance, TO-247, 0.65 *C/W

FDP33N25 (https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/FD/FDP33N25.pdf ): 94mΩ Rds ON,

33A, 250Vds, 2135pf gate capacitance, TO-220, 0.80 *C/W

One thing I am concerned about power loss and therefore switching speed, so the
MOSFET must be driven with a 15KHz to 40KHz square wave with very sharp rise and fall
speeds. I was able to reduce power dissipation in my last circuit by simply shortening the
/
wire carrying the signal to the gate, as well as adding a complementary pair of NPN and
PNP transistors to the output of the 555 timer. That seemed to lower the drive impedance
and switch the mosfet more rapidly, but considering that I still need to use active cooling
and a brick sized heatsink, I think I can do better. Any suggestions?

Tags: MOSFET (/community/?search=MOSFET)

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Please be positive and constructive.

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(/member/Downunder35m/) Downunder35m (/member/Downunder35m/) Best Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
From my experiments with my induction heater I learned one thing very fast...
If you feed a high frequency signal to the gate and also need extreme currents to be switched you
really want a low internal resistance and a strong gate current - or gate transformer.
But single most effective way to get maximum power output and only ver low heat up on the mosfets
is to drive the circuit in resonance.
Here the mosfet is switching no loads at all (in the ideal world) and the most power comes out of the
tank circuit when the two mosfets are switched over.
In such a config it is only important to have the internal resistance as low as possible and that the
mosfets are rated for four times the input voltage.
The way I know you it should be no problem to design a TL494 based circuit with an additional coil to
keep the resonance.
Did not check the prices but something like a NTP60N06 or the clones might be a better solution.
And you only need to go outside the audible frequency range for a singing arc, so why go all the way
to 40kHz?

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)EDownunder35m Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote

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A) The arc is only capable of reproducing high frequencies, Typical audio sample rate is 44.1KHz
(sometimes 196KHz), so it would be nice to drive the flyback at those frequencies for good audio
fidelity. However, I gave a large range because every transformer is different and the circuit
needs to be tuned into resonance with the transformer secondary for maximum voltage output.
B) The transistor you listed does not have price info on digikey, and is only rated for 60V, 4 times
my 24V power supply is 96V, so I don't think it will be suitable for this circuit.
--------------------------------
You mentioned ZVS switching, but how would I audio modulate that? I have messed with that
circuit, and I can get some fat arcs out of my flyback transformer with any heatsinks!! However
audio modulating it is a bit more difficult, I did make an attempt by injecting an audio signal into
the power rail but it was very quiet. I have also considered modulating the magnetic saturation of
the flyback core but never got around to trying that, as maintaining a magnetic feild in a small coil
will cause it to heat up significantly.
However, operating in a resonance mode is different from the flyback mode, correct? I like the
555 driver for being able to generate really high voltages, long thin arcs, and loud audio with a
relatively small input voltage. So much so that 24V is all it took to cause dielectric destruction of
2 transformers lol! However, maybe I can get the best of both worlds and connect 2 MOSFETs to
the ends of a center tapped primary simalar to the popular ZVS circuit and drive the MOSFETs
with that TL494???

Downunder35m (/member/Downunder35m/)E-max-
(/member/Downunder35m/)
Answer 3 years ago
Reply / Upvote
That last bit was my thinking exactly ;)
The ZVS circuit is powerful but as you noticed not really capable of audio induction.
But if I am not thinking totally wrong adding a second primary winding that carries the audio
signal should be enough to change the magnetic field.
Was thinking of 4-8Ohm and driving it directly from a tiny amp.
And I suggested the Mosfets for 12V use as this should be sufficient, but they should work fine in
your circuit.
Should be possible to make a highly efficient driver circuit for the flyback that does not require
several amps to run.
Those tiny things for the plasma globes work fine for smaller arcs and some already offer a mic
input - with a change in sensitivity and maybe a slightly bigger transformer...

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)EDownunder35m Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
My fear with adding a L3 coil to the flyback to inject an audio signal directly into the core is that
the strong dϕ/dt on that core will induce an EMF right back into any device connected to it,
potentially destroying it. I wonder if I could do something simalar to what a dimmer switch does,
and build a circuit that phase locks with the oscillator and abruptly forces whichever transistor
happens to be conducting at the moment to turn off, simalar to how those SCR based dimmer
switches work.

/
 Downunder35m (/member/Downunder35m/)E-max-
(/member/Downunder35m/)
Answer 3 years ago
Reply / Upvote
There are some nice schematics out there in several variations but not so many with an audio
input.
Was thinking of the audio problem and interference, ever considered adding the audio signal to
the DC that is switched by the mosfets?

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)EDownunder35m Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
I don't think it is my MOSFET driver circuit that is limiting how fast the MOSFET switches, as I
am achieving a slew rate of about 90 MV/s according to my osciloscope. The waveform is very
square in shape. Strangely when I apply power, the waveform on the gate becomes more
chaotic, which I guess is expected, I think I need to "shorten the loops." as the wires from the
MOSFET are several inches long and stray inductance is playing a role.

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)EDownunder35m Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
I think that was how my original design worked (effectively a class A amplifier) , then I switched
over to adding a secondary winding to the inductor between the center tap and Vcc, and driving
that with a class AB amplifier. Both scenarios are incredibly inefficient, as my ZVS driver can pull
up to 6A at 12V. Also this requires additional power transistors, which are not cheap.

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/) 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
Why is it that the IRFP250 (http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfp250.pdf) has a lower
Rds on resistance and a better thermal conductivity (between junction and case) but is rated for less
current? I guess the actual on state resistance depends on more factors and the figure given (tested
at 10Vgs w/ 18A drain current vs 10A of current for the FDP33N25
(https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/FD/FDP33N25.pdf))

(/member/iceng/) iceng (/member/iceng/)E-max- Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
Thanks for the spec sheet pointers. IR iso-drain 19A @ 100`C using hexfet construct vs Fairchild
20.4A @ 100`C unknown construct... While transconductance
are spec games...
Anyway, where it matters they are the much the same.

/
 (/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)Eiceng Answer 3 years ago
Reply / Upvote
Ohhh, "transconductance" big words, me like! Maybe I get to frighten someone away from
electronics with that word lol!!! :P
Can you please explain what that means?
I guess I will order a few and see if they are suitable. I have not had much luck with the smaller
TO-220 FETs in the past with this project.

(/member/iceng/) iceng (/member/iceng/)E-max- Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
Whenever you meet a push/pull mosfet amp or audio power arc singer, after you choose a fet
then you then want to test which two devices have the closest CLM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_length_modul...
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_length_modulation)
Channel Length Modulation the modern term for transconductance of the old, and now becoming
new again, as vacuum tubes for amplifiers are growing and manufactured in Russia.
You would never replace a single dying tube but always the push pull as a closely matched and
ballanced set.

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)Eiceng Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
So transconductance and CLM are just fancy terms for being in the linear region???

(/member/iceng/) iceng (/member/iceng/)E-max- Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
More like gain change as bias shifts and you want both gain bias slopes to be the same
(identical) for best balanced audio.

(/member/iceng/) iceng (/member/iceng/)Eiceng Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
Actually the linear region is just that. Trans-conductance is the effect a voltage device exhibits as
its impedance changes with the applied bias or gate voltage..
A snazzy engineer could use that effect to make a better bipolar oscillator using current
fluctuations.
I don't ever remember if it was normal or inverted, but you have to admit that it is desirable to
match Transconductance for push pull applications.

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)Eiceng Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote

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OK, so it is kindof a way of to describe the dynamic resistance as a function of gate voltage, or
more specifically the gain at any particular Vgs voltage. It sounds like a representing the linearity
of a device.
However, what I am more concerned about is switching losses. I am using either PWM or FM
modulation (probably not AM modulation as that requires me to deal with that power transistor in
the linear region) to audio modulate the circuit. How can I reduce (what I believe) is mostly
switching losses? (because the same transistors used in the ZVS circuit seem to reduce power
loss in the MOSFETs a great deal.)
What factors limit how fast a MOSFET can be switched on and off? When I measure the voltage
on the gate without power applied across the flyback transformer, I see that the the gate input is
very square in appearance. It does not look like I should see much power loss. Even once I
apply power to the flyback, I still have sharp rise and fall times, although I see a bit more
harmonic junk and a few really high frequency ringing artifacts on the flat parts of the square
wave. This might have to do more with how I was probing it than the voltage present, IDK. Any
ideas?

(/member/iceng/) iceng (/member/iceng/)E-max- Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
Besides driving a gate hard to overcome gate charge time capacitance, keep very short wire
lines (Iv seen a 6" ten strand straight wire inductance add a 100v spike at a very fast, too fast,
turn off time) and consider litz or many stranded welder wire to force even current distribution in
your power runs...
Different manufacturers use different gate geometries which should decide how fast gate rise
time travels activate the channel...
Obviously as the driven switching PWM or FM increases fq it will heat up.. Resonance can run
cooler but I do not believe you can do music with resonance.

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)Eiceng Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
Yeah, short wires for sure! I noticed that when I went from using a small 6 inch breadboard
jumper wire for the gate to a much shorter 2 inch wire, my MOSFET ran noticeably cooler. where
before it took only a minute of operation to get to a point where the MOSFET got got enough to
melt the soldered wires right off, to only getting very very warm on my CPU heatsink. When it
comes to litz wire, wound 10 or so strands of 30AWG wire cut the mustard? I made it in the past
with only 6 strands of thicker wire but did not notice a significant difference.

(/member/iceng/) iceng (/member/iceng/)E-max- Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
Multi strand wire 40 or more allow insulated wire to use less space in hi-fq xfmrs to use smaller
gauge wire because you use the full cross sectional area of a wire rather then the outside edge...
That's why RF does not kill you by flowing on the outside of your skin...

Reply / Upvote /
 -max- (/member/-max-/)Eiceng Answer 3 years ago
(/member/-max-/)

The skin effect is certainly a strange one! So I guess 10 strands made by hand is not really worth
the effort, is it. :( I guess at 20 KHz to a few MHz range it is not too big a deal. I wonder how well
a tesla coil secondary would work with litz wire, ummm.... Thanks your your answers iceng, I
would have given you best answer award but you never "answered" my question, just reply to
my own "answer" lol! I wish the Instructables commenting section is sooo pathetically broken!

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)Eiceng Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
It seems that a few sites and videos are saying that transconductance is kindof a parameter of
how "good" the MOSFET is, or it's gain. (Vgs-Vthres)/Id. So would a MOSFET with a better
"transconductance" basically turn on "harder" with a lower voltage?

(/member/-max-/) -max- (/member/-max-/)Eiceng Answer 3 years ago

Reply / Upvote
I noticed the cheaper MOSFET actually has almost half of the output capacitance, and a much
smaller miller capacitance. What I don't know is if that would significantly improve switching
losses?? I was reading an article about a 4MHz SSTC design, and to achieve ZVS, he added a
damped tank circuit to the primary so that the damped ringing would cause the voltage to come
back down close to 0 just in time at the same time the MOSFET gets switched on. It was an
interesting design! I wonder if my circuit would benifit enough from such a configuration?

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