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An Examination of Latinx LGBT
Populations Across the United
States
Antonio (Jay) Pastrana, Jr. • Juan Battle • Angelique Harris
An Examination
of Latinx LGBT
Populations Across
the United States
Intersections of Race and Sexuality
Antonio (Jay) Pastrana, Jr. Juan Battle
John Jay College of Criminal Justice Graduate Center
City University of New York City University of New York
New York, USA New York, USA
Angelique Harris
Marquette University
Milwaukee, USA
ISBN 978-1-137-56073-5 ISBN 978-1-137-56074-2 (eBook)

DOI 10.1057/978-1-137-56074-2
Library of Congress Control Number: 2016954962
© The Editor(s) (if applicable) and The Author(s) 2017

This work is subject to copyright. All rights are solely and exclusively licensed by the
Publisher, whether the whole or part of the material is concerned, specifically the rights of
translation, reprinting, reuse of illustrations, recitation, broadcasting, reproduction on
microfilms or in any other physical way, and transmission or information storage and
retrieval, electronic adaptation, computer software, or by similar or dissimilar methodology
now known or hereafter developed.
The use of general descriptive names, registered names, trademarks, service marks, etc. in this
publication does not imply, even in the absence of a specific statement, that such names are
exempt from the relevant protective laws and regulations and therefore free for general use.
The publisher, the authors and the editors are safe to assume that the advice and information
in this book are believed to be true and accurate at the date of publication. Neither the
publisher nor the authors or the editors give a warranty, express or implied, with respect to
the material contained herein or for any errors or omissions that may have been made.
Cover illustration: Cover pattern © Melisa Hasan
Printed on acid-free paper
This Palgrave Macmillan imprint is published by Springer Nature

The registered company is Nature America Inc.
The registered company address is: 1 New York Plaza, New York, NY 10004, U.S.A.
CONTENTS
1 Introduction 1
Naming and Labels 4
LGBT Communities 5
Latinx LGBT Communities 6
Latinx LGBTs Coming Out 7
Latinx LGBT Family Life 7
Latinx LGBT Spirituality 8
The Significance of Latinx LGBT Sexuality 8
Organization of the Book 9
Note 10
References 10
2 Current Trends 15
Current Trends 16
Trans* Issues 16
Immigration 17
Marriage 18
Economics 19
Health 20
References 20
3 Coming Out and Being Out 23

Meet Sebastián Jiménez Sánchez 26
Racial or Ethnic Identity for LGBT People of Color 29
v
vi CONTENTS
The Latinx LGBT Closet 30

Religion 30
Note 30
References 31
4 Religion and Spirituality 33

Religion in Latinx LGBT Communities 34
Homophobia and Religion 39
References 43
5 Family Life 45
Support within Families 46
Relationships and Children 51
References 53
6 The SJS Project: Phases of Research 55

SJS Research Principles and Background 56
Phase I—Preliminary Work 57
Phase II—Field Period for Quantitative Survey 59
Phase III—Reports and Academic Articles 59
Phase IV—Field Period for Qualitative Survey 60
Phase V—Field Period for Digital Image Project 60
Notes 61
References 61
Index 63
ABOUT THE AUTHORS
Antonio (Jay) Pastrana, Jr. is an Associate Professor in the Sociology

Department and Deputy Director of the Gender Studies Program at John
Jay College of Criminal Justice, City University of New York (CUNY).
His research and scholarship calls attention to theoretical, methodological,
and practical dilemmas within the field of intersectionality studies.
Specifically, he examines how race-based marginalization affects the lives
of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans* (LGBT) people of color.
As a professor, Pastrana encourages students to participate in professional
activities outside of the classroom, while helping them to connect their own
lives to the task of critical inquiry. As a Principal Investigator of the Social
Justice Sexuality Project, one of the largest national survey research projects
to collect data on LGBT people of color, he is committed to ongoing efforts
that document the lived experiences of these understudied populations. A
New York City native, Pastrana engages various audiences in advancing the
work produced by scholars exploring intersectional issues, specifically those
whose focus includes race, class, gender and sexuality, and social justice.
Juan Battle is a Professor of Sociology, Public Health, and Urban Education

at the Graduate Center of the CUNY. He is also the Coordinator of the
Africana Studies Certificate Program.
His research focuses on race, sexuality, and social justice. In addition to
having delivered lectures at a multitude of academic institutions, commu-
nity-based organizations, and funding agencies throughout the world,
Professor Battle’s scholarship has included work throughout North
America, South America, Africa, Asia, and Europe.
vii
viii ABOUT THE AUTHORS
He is a Fulbright Senior Specialist; was the Fulbright Distinguished

Chair of Gender Studies at the University of Klagenfurt, Austria; and
was an Affiliate Faculty of the Institute for Gender and Development
Studies, The University of the West Indies, St. Augustine, Trinidad, and
Tobago.
Further, he is a former president of the Association of Black Sociologists
and is actively involved with the American Sociological Association.
For more information, see JuanBattle.com.
Angelique Harris is a Director of the Center for Gender and Sexualities

Studies and the Women’s and Gender Studies Program, and an Associate
Professor of Sociology in the Department of Social and Cultural Sciences
at the Helen Way Klingler College of Arts and Sciences. Her research and
teaching interests include the sociology of health and illness, race and
ethnicity, gender and sexuality, religion, urban studies, media studies,
and social movements.
Her research examines social problems and issues within marginalized
communities, primarily focusing on the experiences of women, people of
color, and LGBTQ+ communities. Dr. Harris’s primary research program
studies how disadvantaged groups understand, construct, and respond to
health issues as well as how the marginalization and stigmatization they
experience impact their access to healthcare. She is the author of AIDS,
Sexuality, and the Black Church: Making the Wounded Whole, and coau-
thored the writing reference books Writing for Emerging Sociologists and
The Sociology Student’s Guide to Writing.
CHAPTER 1
Introduction
Abstract This chapter provides a context for the entire volume. First,
issues around language and labeling are presented. Next a general discus-
sion is provided concerning larger lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans*
(LGBT) communities. Then, more specific information is provided for
Latinx LGBT communities, with a particular focus on issues of coming
out, family life, and spirituality. This is followed by a discussion of the
significance of Latinx LGBT sexuality. Finally, the chapter ends with a
presentation of how the rest of the book is organized.
Keywords Latinx LGBT communities Coming out Family life

Spirituality Latinx LGBT sexuality
One summer evening in 1996, Tomás M. was ready. After spending

half a year preparing for all possible reactions from his Mexican family,
Tomás—a Bronx, New York native—was eager to get it over with.
He had never known anyone who had “come out” to his or her family
personally. The only thing he knew for sure was that with one phone
call, his entire family would find out. His Latinx1 family was big.
Complete with three older sisters, two younger brothers, and over 15
cousins all living within the NY metropolitan area, Tomás’ family was
ubiquitous, or so he thought. And finally coming out as gay at the age
© The Author(s) 2017 1

A. (Jay) Pastrana, Jr. et al., An Examination of Latinx LGBT
Populations Across the United States,
DOI 10.1057/978-1-137-56074-2_1
2 AN EXAMINATION OF LATINX LGBT POPULATIONS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES
of 21 was something Tomás knew he had to tackle tactfully, given all of

the stories he had read and heard.
It was in his numerous undergraduate psychology classes on gender and
sexuality that Tomás had first learned about the homosexuality debates.
Was it a mental illness, like his abuela (grandmother) insisted? He knew
that the work of research psychologists like Evelyn Hooker helped to
remove homosexuality from the list of mental disorders in the United
States, but Tomás also knew that the world of research was one thing, and
his Latinx family’s living room was something else entirely.
In addition to the debates about mental illness, there were the countless
coming out narratives that dominated the contemporary literature on
lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans* (LGBT) issues that influenced Tomas’
imagination and fueled his fears. Many of those stories were filled with
immediate voyages to unknown cities where the gay protagonist had to
start a brand-new life. They were also filled with an absence of Latinx
characters and voices, something that always left Tomás wondering if there
were any gay Latinx men who survived the coming out experience and
were willing to share it with others. What happened to them? Where were
their stories?
Would his family disown him? Would religion be used against him?
Would he have to move out? All of these questions—and more—stirred in
Tomás’ head.
But all of that ended one July evening in 1996. That’s when Tomás
decided to come out as gay to his mother.
“I know, hijo mio,” was her quick response. In addition, his mother
offered some other advice: Be careful with your health (which Tomás
interpreted as “Always use protection when having sex”). And don’t
walk alone at night. Though the conversation took about 10 minutes, in
Tomás’ mind it lasted a lifetime. Religion was never discussed, but this did
not necessarily surprise Tomás. Though his mother was one of the most
religious people he knew, often attending mass every day of the week, she
never imposed religion onto others, not even to her children.
Over the next couple of days, Tomás had similar “coming out” con-
versations with other members of his immediate and extended family.
Though most were supportive, some family members responded with
anger or confusion.
“So you were lying about girls all this time,” asked an indignant aunt.
“Don’t tell anyone back in Mexico because they will disown us all,”
declared a frightened sister.
1 INTRODUCTION 3
“Does this mean you’re still a man?” asked a cousin.

Tomás’ younger brother insisted: “You’re talking to someone about
this, right, like a therapist who can help with this problem?”
And when Tomás confronted his father the only topic of discussion was
about staying close to family. His father’s measured advice was to always
come home to family. He warned Tomás that there would be some who
would never understand, but ultimately it is the family that has to be
accepting.
Tomás was fortunate. His initial fears were not confirmed, but today, as
a Latino gay man in his forties, he realizes that each coming out story is
different. In fact, many of his contemporaries share stories about being
banished from entire families or being separated from loved ones by the
idiosyncrasies of immigration laws steeped in heteronormative values.
These multidimensional narratives are part of Tomás’ everyday existence,
and today he strives to let others learn and know more about them. He
now understands that being an out gay man entails coming out to others
many, many times.
According to data from the Social Justice Sexuality (SJS) Project,
Tomás’ story is not uncommon. The patterns of Latinx LGBT life defy
common stereotypes. Of the over 5000 participants surveyed for the SJS
Project, Latinx LGBT respondents, compared to other LGBT commu-
nities of color and contrary to some expectations, tended to be less
religious; equally connected to the LGBT community as other LGBT
people of color; no more likely to feel homophobia is a problem in their
neighborhood or community than other LGBT people of color; and
equally likely to feel their racial or ethnic status is an important part of
their identity. And about 90% are out to at least some of their friends and
family.
The SJS Project began as a research agenda that sought to document and
celebrate the stories of Latinx LGBT people: their racial and sexual identities,
spirituality and religion, mental and physical health, family formations and
dynamics, and civic and community engagement. Since 2008, one of the
overarching goals of the project has been to better understand identity and
life experiences through a knowledge-based lens—one that does not neces-
sarily ask about issues of discrimination, stigma, HIV and AIDS, or pathol-
ogy, but rather seeks to gather baseline data that have not been systematically
collected. This purposeful line of inquiry not only has its roots in feminist
scholarship (e.g., Crenshaw 1989; Matsuda 1991; Sandoval 1991), but it is
also part of a tradition of social scientific and legal scholarship on race that
seeks to build counter-narratives, which are often in conflict with people’s

everyday (and stereotypical) understandings of the role of race, sexuality, and
gender in the lives of people of color. For more about the theoretical
perspectives and research methodologies employed by the SJS Project,
please refer to Chapter 6.
Using both qualitative and quantitative data from the SJS Project as a
guide, this book uncovers more common and uncommon stories of Latinx
LGBT people. Using respondents’ own words, distinctions are made
between myths and lived realities. Some of the information presented in
these pages is common sense, while other information is new and counter-
intuitive. Ultimately, our goal is to educate all and empower a collection of
communities of people who, all too often, don’t get to tell their own
stories but are forced to spend their lives responding to narratives that are
told about them.
NAMING AND LABELS

Shakespeare reminds us that a rose by any other name would still smell as
sweet. In short, no matter what you call it, it’s still a rose. Well, sexuality is
clearly more complicated and dynamic than plant life. Sexuality is com-
prised of the persistent fluidity and intersecting components of identity,
behavior, and attraction (Chandra et al. 2011). Therefore, depending
upon which of these interdependent measures researchers employ, sample
sizes can dramatically change (Gates 2011, 2012; SMART 2009), thus
causing the proverbial rose to smell of some other combination. For the
purpose of this intellectual enterprise, we employ the term “LGBT” to
refer to individuals and groups who do not completely or always self-
identify as heterosexual. We use the abbreviation “trans*” to capture the
experiences of those who identify as transgender, transsexual, or those for
whom the traditional labels of male or female are inadequate, insufficient,
or incorrect. Further, we use the term “LGBT” realizing that it has
different meanings for different people.
Concerning race, many people and groups described in this book may
prefer the term “Latino,” which, while referring to all the countries in
Latin America, including Brazil and Haiti, also ties certain people
together through a history of colonization. In this document, however,
we will use the term “Latinx.” It is similar to “Latino,” but the “x” erases
gender, making the category inclusive of men, women, agendered,
trans*, gender-nonconforming, gender-queer and gender-fluid people.
1 INTRODUCTION 5
Finally, it bears noting that most Latinx people do not use racial terms
assigned to them. Instead, most Latinx people around the world refer
to themselves based on whichever country or indigenous population
they belong to (e.g., Honduran, Mexican, Peruvian, etc.). As a social
construct—something that changes over time and within different
contexts—identity labels are neither static nor universal.
LGBT COMMUNITIES
Though there is more to be done, scholars have investigated lesbian and
gay experiences from a historical perspective (Chauncey 1994; D‘Emilio
2002; Epstein 1999; Gamson and Moon 2004; Sedgwick 1990; Seidman
2006; Vaid 1995). Further, others have highlighted the importance of
race (Ferguson 2007; Guzmán 2006; Sommerville 2000; Vidal-Ortiz
2008) and racism (McBride 2005; Young and Meyer 2005) on that
history.
By creating separate groups of people based on heterosexual and
homosexual identity, many have argued that the medical field was instru-
mental in stigmatizing sexual minorities (Weeks 1996). In addition, the
most powerful institution informing the “racial morphology” within the
United States has been the law (Haney Lopez 1996). Therefore, in
resistance to that unique oppression, researchers have linked experiences
of sexual minorities of color with issues of social justice (Cohen 1997;
Teunis et al. 2006). The relatively recent increase in the numbers of Latinx
in the United States further complicates conversations about race in this
country (Bonilla-Silva 2006).
Because so much research focuses on disease and illness instead of
health and well-being, a strong bias exists in social science research
(Boehmer 2002; Keyes and Grzywacz 2005). As a result, there have
been explicit calls for more research highlighting a resilience over a
deficit model (Akerlund and Cheung 2000; Masten 1994; Shih 2004).
Adrienne Rich has encouraged more dynamic thinking when it comes
to sexuality. For example, she describes a lesbian continuum to convey
that sexuality is more fluid than fixed (1981). Social identity (whether
racial or sexual orientation) tends to develop via “stages” (Erikson
1956). Further, people of color and sexual minorities are more likely
to suffer from minority stress (Meyer 1995), which occurs from navi-
gating value structures that are in conflict between minority and
majority groups (Cross 1978; Phinney 1992) and there is a long
history of researchers documenting negative physical and mental health

outcomes for LGBT people of color due to minority stress (Balsam
and Szymanski 2005; Mays and Cochran 2001; Mays et al. 1993,
2002).
Because of the stresses related to multiple minority statuses, activists
have worked diligently to create “safe spaces” (Davis 2002). Others,
however, have argued that dominant ideologies are always present and
internalized; thus by implication no “space” is safe (Foucault 1990). The
stresses related to multiple minority statuses have produced several
responses. One response has been that dominant ideologies are always
present and internalized (Foucault 1990); another response has been
to create safe spaces (Davis 2002). The reality of multiple statuses has
prompted theorists to view sexuality through intersectionality, a theore-
tical framework and methodological lens to understand racial minorities,
sexual minorities, and their intersections (Collins 2000, 2015; Crenshaw
1989; Lorde 2001; Weber 2010).
LATINX LGBT COMMUNITIES

Research on Latinx LGBT people has often credited traditional reli-
gious beliefs, low educational attainment, language barriers, and sup-
port for traditional gender roles as mechanisms through which LGBT
identity and expression is made more difficult (Akerlund and Cheung
2000). In addition, stereotypes about Latina sexuality—from the “spicy
Latina” (Merskin 2007) to the immigrant mother with supposedly lots
of children draining public resources (González-López and Vidal-Ortiz
2007) to the asexual maid or domestic (Hondagneu-Sotelo 2001;
Toro-Morn 2007)—all work to perpetuate negative, myopic, and inac-
curate images of Latinas. A recent study of Latina women indicated
that socioeconomic status, race and color, and gender performance all
affect current and future life chances (Asencio 2009). And for gay and
bisexual men, Diaz and Ayala (2001) found that racism, poverty, and
homophobia together serve as barriers to good health. Still, many other
researchers contend that there is much more to investigate and even
more that is unknown about the everyday lives of Latinx LGBT people
in particular and about LGBT people of color more broadly (Pastrana
2015). Within Latinx LGBT research, such things as country of origin,
relationship to the immigration experience, and other important char-
acteristics are understudied.
1 INTRODUCTION 7
LATINX LGBTS COMING OUT

Though often presented as a “moment in time” event, in reality, “coming
out” is an ongoing process of figuring out, processing, and sharing with
others one’s same-sex attraction (Gagnon and Simon 1973). Further, sexual
orientation is fluid and can change both over the life course as well as in
different settings (Garnets and Kimmel 1993). The term “passing” emerged
from the US Black community and was typically used to apply to those who
were able to successfully present themselves as White (Ginsberg 1996). In
more recent years, however, the term has been applied to trans* populations
(Cromwell 1999) and other sexual minorities.
LATINX LGBT FAMILY LIFE

Regardless of race, the legalization of same-sex marriage has had and will
continue to have a seismic impact on how LGBT people “can” legally form
their families. Though there were many who had concerns about unintended
outcomes (D’Emilio 2007), most agree that the overall impact will be
positive for most LGBT people. That notwithstanding, for LGBT people
of color, there’s more to family life than the ability to marry.
Researchers have examined nontraditional family formations (Weston
1991) and specific issues as they pertain to LGBT youth (Kumashiro
2001; Savin-Williams 1990; Sklar and Palmer 2009) and populations of
color (Hawkeswood 1996). And the importance of families in ethnic and
racial groups is generally well known (see Chavez and Guido-DiBrito
1999). A history of discriminatory practices in employment, concentrated
poverty, and industrial restructuring have left women of color, regardless
of sexual orientation, in lower levels of socioeconomic status (Rodriquez
et al. 2007). Latinx LGBT people create family structures to augment
traditional family formations (Bailey and Arnold 2009).
The reasons for the paucity of research on LGBT families of color are
multifold. Bennett and Battle (2001), however, present a powerful cri-
tique of that lack of research:
Another reason for the lack of research on LGBT . . . black families is the belief
by many mainstream . . . scholars and researchers that it is not their job to
address the African American LGBT population if they themselves are not
part of that population. “What” they might ask, “gives us the right to speak
authoritatively on a subject position that we do not occupy?” This is a
legitimate question, one that is related to other important questions about the
role of subjectivity in social science research and the dangers of misappropriat-
ing the experience of research subjects. However, the implication that LGBTs
should be the only ones held responsible for research in this area is erroneous.
It acts as a way of dodging the hard work necessary to thoroughly research and
fairly represent a research subject that is different from and perhaps even hostile
to the researcher (a not unusual situation). (61)
Research also documents close relationships between religion and family

(Jeffries IV 2008; Oswald 2001; Seegers 2007).
LATINX LGBT SPIRITUALITY

The role and importance of religion in Latinx communities has been well
documented (Crane 2003; Diaz-Stevens 1993; Stevens-Arroyo 2000).
There is a general consensus that religion and spirituality have a positive
impact on a variety of health outcomes (Bekelman et al. 2007; Chatters
2000; Koenig et al. 2001) and this relationship is still being investigated
for Latinx communities.
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF LATINX LGBT SEXUALITY

So why study US Latinx individuals and their sexuality? Simply put,
sexuality and sexual politics are core to who we are. As Collins (2004)
reminds us, sexual politics are “a set of ideas and social practices shaped by
gender, race, and sexuality that frame all men and women’s treatment of
one another, as well as how individual men and women are perceived and
treated by others.”
Due to changes in immigration patterns, ethnic diversity within Latinx
populations has grown significantly in the past 20 years and will continue to
grow. As a result, understanding ethnic diversity within this community is
crucial. Further, given the United States’ clear history of regulating Latinx
bodies, understanding that impact on sexuality is warranted. Many a page
has been written about the importance of family to Latinx people in the
United States; what’s needed, however, is more thorough research on how
the regulation of Latinx bodies manifests across multiple family formations
(e.g., single vs. married households, same-sex vs. opposite-sex marriages,
households with children vs. those without, etc.). While models of resiliency
are understudied, narratives of pathology—from HIV/AIDS and obesity to
1 INTRODUCTION 9
high blood pressure and depression—are plentiful and disproportionately

applied to Latinx sexual minorities.
As a result, Latinx LGBT people in the United States are more likely to
be the subject of assumptions (e.g., hypersexuality, undocumented immi-
gration status, etc.) than research. And for the research that does exist, far
too much of it emphasizes oppression and marginalization. Additionally,
there is the burden of navigating racism (both inside LGBT communities
and beyond), homophobia (both inside Latinx communities and beyond),
and the intersection of the two. More specifically, all too often, while their
larger heterosexual Latinx communities fight for racial justice and the
larger White LGBT communities fight for sexual justice, the unique
experiences of Latinx LGBTs go unvoiced.
It has been argued that people are destroyed from a lack of knowledge.
Through sound research and reasoned thinking, this book addresses erro-
neous information and myths with the expectation that if ignorance kills,
then knowledge will empower.
ORGANIZATION OF THE BOOK

Subsequent chapters of this book, utilizing both quantitative and qualita-
tive data gathered by the SJS Project, focus on the lives of Latinx LGBT
people in the United States. In Chapter 2, current trends in research and in
the social, cultural, and political lives of Latinx LGBT people are examined.
Some of these issues are related to trans* populations, immigration,
marriage, economic status, and health.
In Chapter 3, coming out practices are examined, with particular atten-
tion paid to the voices of research participants who shared their stories with
the SJS Project. This chapter highlights their experiences, perceptions, and
challenges related to coming out. And it explores how Latinx LGBT people
navigate being out to others in their lives today. Coming out as LGBT is
complex, multifaceted, and a life-long process that often includes religion
and family, which are each examined in the next two chapters of the book.
Chapter 4 examines the role of religion in the lives of Latinx LGBT
people. Previous studies, as well as SJS data, indicate that spirituality and
religion are important factors in the everyday lives of Latinx people. This
chapter discusses their influence on the coming out processes and experi-
ences of individuals who shared their stories with the SJS Project.
In Chapter 5, another important social institution is explored: families.
The history of Latinx people in the United States has shown that there are
a number of different family configurations beyond that of the hetero-

normative two-parent household often touted as ideal in this nation. This
chapter focuses on how the individuals interviewed conceptualize family
and how they make any distinction between family of origin, family of
creation, and fictive family/kin. Also, this chapter addresses how families
influence the coming out process.
Lastly, Chapter 6 contains a chronological inventory of the various research
approaches and tools used throughout the lifetime of the SJS Project. Starting
with a broad theoretical stance, the project has consistently employed various
methodologies and included over 5000 research participants whose invalu-
able time, stories, and perspectives are the heart of this book.
NOTE
1. An explanation of this term occurs later in the chapter.
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Bailey, M., and E. Arnold. 2009. Constructing Home and Family: How the
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CHAPTER 2
Current Trends
Abstract This chapter presents current trends for Latinx LGBT commu-
nities. More specifically, five unique areas are explored: trans* issues,
immigration, marriage, economics, and health.
Keywords Trans* issues Immigration Marriage Economics Health
MYTH: All sexual and racial minorities use the same terms to identify
themselves.
REALITY: Within groups there is diversity in the labels people like to
use to refer to themselves, and throughout history the cate-
gories for race, ethnicity, and sexuality have changed.
MYTH: All trans* people are White.
REALITY: There is significant racial diversity within the trans*
community.
MYTH: Immigration is not an issue for LGBT communities.
REALITY: There are thousands of same-sex couples throughout the
United States where one or neither partner is a US citizen.
Further, immigration is often a means through which LGBT
individuals—regardless of relationship status—seek shelter
from legal and social stigmas in their countries of origin.
MYTH: All LGBT people identify marriage as a top issue.
© The Author(s) 2017 15

A. (Jay) Pastrana, Jr. et al., An Examination of Latinx LGBT
Populations Across the United States,
DOI 10.1057/978-1-137-56074-2_2
REALITY: In addition to marriage, Latinx LGBT people identified

economic issues as a top concern.
MYTH: All LGBT people are wealthy.
REALITY: Broadly, LGBT people earn less than their heterosexual
counterparts.
MYTH: Being healthy is a choice.
REALITY: Research shows that an individual’s and community’s eco-
nomic resources have a significant impact on health out-
comes. Racism, discrimination, and economic conditions
influence Latinx LGBT health.
CURRENT TRENDS
According to the Pew Research Center’s 2013 LGBT survey and its
analysis of the 2011 American Community Survey, Latinx Americans
comprise 15% of all US adults and 17% of all LGBT adults. Arguably,
the biggest current trend affecting Latinx LGBT people crystalized on
Friday, June 26, 2015. On that day, the United States’ Supreme Court
ruled that the Constitution guarantees a right to same-sex marriage.
Though that event was monumental it was by no means all encompassing.
In short, Latinx sexual minorities have aspects of, and issues in, their lives
that may be related to, but also go beyond, same-sex marriage. In this
chapter, we examine a few of these. Among them, we provide specific
attention to issues related to trans* people, immigration issues, marriage,
economic issues, and health.
TRANS* ISSUES
According to a report jointly published by the League of United Latin
American Citizens, the National Center for Transgender Equality
(NCTE), and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF), “the
combination of anti-transgender bias with structural and interpersonal
racism [means] that transgender and gender non-conforming people of
color, including those who are [Latinx], experience particularly devastating
levels of discrimination” (NCTE 2010). In addition to reports, other forms
of media have engaged the story and experiences of gender nonconforming
people. For example, Mala Mala is a powerful documentary about the
power of social and political diversity and change told through the eyes of
2 CURRENT TRENDS 17
trans*-identifying individuals in Puerto Rico (Santini and Sickles 2014).

According to a 2011 U.S. report by the NCTE, “Latino/a Trans people
often live in extreme poverty with 28% reporting a household income of less
than $10,000/year. This is nearly double the rate for Trans people of all
races (15%), over five times the general Latino/a community rate (5%), and
seven times the general U.S. community rate (4%)” (Grant et al. 2011).
Legal barriers unique to transgender Latinx immigrants have been well
described by Padrón and Salcedo (2013). For example, they found that
99% of the trans* Latina immigrants in their sample placed a high value in
having an authorized immigration status and possessing valid US identi-
fication; however, because of structural (and legal) barriers, some 70% of
them didn’t even have a US driver’s license.
Even in the presence of devastating levels of discrimination, there are very
powerful glimmers of hope. For example, 47% of Latinx trans* and gender
nonconforming people reported experiencing significant family acceptance,
and 65% reported that their relationships with family slowly improved after
coming out as trans*. Those respondents who were accepted by their
families were much less likely to face discrimination (NCTE 2010).
Also encouraging is the degree the larger media is examining, while not
exploiting, this population. For example, in April 2015, on the show Aquí y
Ahora, Univison aired a special En Cuerpo Ajeno (In Another Body) that
featured Latinx members of the trans* community.
IMMIGRATION
According to the NGLTF, almost 80 countries have laws that discriminate
against LGBT people (NGLTF 2014); and in seven countries, there is capital
punishment for having sex with someone of the same sex. In the United
States, thousands of LGBT people apply for asylum, but only about 1000 are
admitted annually; and the United States has over 267,000 LGBT adults
who are undocumented immigrants. Almost three-quarters (72%) of people
in the United States, however, feel that undocumented immigrants should
be able to remain in the United States legally (Pew 2015a).
Just as there is a military industrial complex and a prison industrial complex,
some have argued the United States has an immigration detention industrial
complex as well (Kalhan 2010). With an annual budget of over 3.3 billion
dollars and with about 33,000 people in detention on any given day, the US
Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is quite a substantial federal
agency. Further, almost half of those detained by ICE are held by private
corporations, who get millions of dollars from the federal government for their
services. Caught in this web are detained LGBT immigrants who, compared
to the general population, experience increased rates of physical and sexual
abuse in detention facilities. According to data from the United States Census,
there are nearly 11,500 same-sex couples in which neither partner is a US
citizen and more than three-quarters (76%) of partners in same-sex, noncitizen
couples are Latinx; for both Whites and Asian and Pacific Islanders, one in ten
same-sex couples includes a noncitizen (Konnoth and Gates 2011). With such
a large percentage of Latinx same-sex couples including a noncitizen, the
chances that a Latinx same-sex couple will suffer abuse in immigrant detention
centers is high and of special concern.
MARRIAGE
In 2001, about 57% of people in the United States opposed same-sex
marriage; by 2015 the same percentage (57%) favored it (Pew 2015b).
Though there were some racial differences, they were not at all dramatic.
Racial difference and patterns are dramatic, however, when examining mar-
riage patterns—for both opposite-sex and same-sex couples. Due to a large
influx of immigrants in recent decades, the number of Latinx adults has
significantly increased and so too have the number of them who have never
married. For example, in 1980 only 12% of Latinx adults had never married;
by 2012, that number had more than doubled to 26% (Pew 2014). Though
the Census Bureau collects data on same-sex couples, it does not include
information on unpartnered—or single—gay men or lesbians. Nor does it
track same-sex couples who do not live together in the same household.
Therefore, Census Bureau tabulations should be read cautiously.
According to the Pew Research Center (2013), nearly 650,000 same-sex
couple households of all races were counted in the 2010 Census. They
included nearly 515,000 unmarried-partner couples and nearly 132,000 cou-
ples who identified themselves as married. Though there are some similarities,
patterns for Latinx householders differ from their White counterparts:
The share of same-sex couple householders who are non-Hispanic White

(78.6%) is slightly higher than the share of opposite-sex married couple
householders (74.7%) and higher than the share of unmarried opposite-sex
couple householders (65.2%) . . . Hispanic householders are less prevalent
among same-sex couples (9.8%) than among married opposite-sex couples
(11.8%) or unmarried opposite-sex couples (18.3%). (p. 26)
2 CURRENT TRENDS 19
So why does marriage matter, and especially to LGBT racial minorities? There
are at least two reasons. First, a sizeable number of Latinx Americans are living
in poverty (Census 2011). Marriage can be seen as an economic contract and
thus a modality out of poverty. Second, for those who can find (suitable)
partners, marriage can serve as a mechanism to citizenship and acceptance by
the larger society.
ECONOMICS
According to Latinx LGBT respondents of the Social Justice Sexuality
Project, economic issues are THE most important concerns they face
(Battle et al. 2013). This is not a surprising finding given disproportionately
negative experiences with poverty and employment discrimination. For
example, according to the Pew Research Center 2013 LGBT survey and
the Pew Research Center analysis of the 2011 American Community Survey,
LGBT adults are more likely to be poor than their non-LGBT counterparts.
More specifically, while 28% of all adults have an income of less than
$30,000, almost 40% of all LGBT adults do. In addition, Latinx commu-
nities are philanthropically underserved. For example, according to a report
published by the Funders for LGBTQ Issues (2014), in 2013, Latinx LGBT
communities received about 2% of all domestic funding for LGBT issues.
Further, in one of the first and most comprehensive studies ever con-
ducted on LGBT poverty, Albeda and colleagues (2009) found, among
other things, that poverty is at least as common in the LGB population as
among heterosexual people and their families; children in gay and lesbian
couple households have poverty rates twice as high as those of children in
heterosexual married couple households; and that Latinx people in same-
sex couples are much more likely to be poor than White same-sex couples.
And more recently, a 2012 Gallup poll found that 35% of those who
identify as LGBT report incomes of less than $24,000 a year, significantly
higher than the 24% for the population in general (Gates and Newport
2012).
The long history of practices leading to LGBT workplace discrimination
has been well documented elsewhere (Badgett et al. 2009). Significantly,
however, these practices continue today. And extensive research has shown
that discrimination against LGBT people, regardless of race or ethnicity, has
a negative impact on health, wages, job opportunities, productivity in the
workplace, and job satisfaction (Sears and Mallory 2011).
HEALTH
Economic inequities serve both to create and sustain health inequities (Sears
and Mallory 2011). Research shows that compared to other racial/sexual
minorities, Latinx adults are least likely to have health insurance, most likely
to delay or not seek healthcare, least likely to have a regular source for basic
healthcare, and much more likely to abuse alcohol (Krehely 2009).
Though their research examines the experiences of men, Rafael Diaz
and colleagues (Diaz 1998; Diaz and Ayala 2001; Diaz et al. 2006, 2012)
highlight the influence of structural racism, homophobia, economic con-
ditions, and other inequities on health for sexual and racial minorities.
Not all issues concerning Latinx LGBT people are negative. For example,
a nationwide sample of LGBT people of color (Battle et al. 2013) found that
Latinx LGBTs’ perception of their general health as well as mental health is
similar to that of other LGBT people of color; that among Latinx LGBT
people, religion is not likely to have any more of a negative or positive
influence than it does for other LGBT people of color; that Latinx LGBT
people feel equally as connected to the LGBT community as other LGBT
people of color; that compared to other LGBT people of color, Latinx
LGBTs are no more likely to feel homophobia is a problem in their neigh-
borhood/community (Battle and Harris 2013); and that on average, Latinx
LGBT people come out at around age 15, which is roughly the same age as
when their LGBT of color counterparts also come out (Pastrana 2015).
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Another random document with
no related content on Scribd:
marked touches, and it ends in vapid flippancy and impertinence.
Among our neighbours on the Continent, Moliere and Rabelais
carried the freedom of wit and humour to an almost incredible
height; but they rather belonged to the old French school, and even
approach and exceed the English licence and extravagance of
conception. I do not consider Congreve’s wit (though it belongs to
us) as coming under the article here spoken of; for his genius is any
thing but merry. Lord Byron was in the habit of railing at the spirit
of our good old comedy, and of abusing Shakspeare’s Clowns and
Fools, which he said the refinement of the French and Italian stage
would not endure, and which only our grossness and puerile taste
could tolerate. In this I agree with him; and it is pat to my purpose. I
flatter myself that we are almost the only people left who understand
and relish nonsense. We are not ‘merry and wise,’ but indulge our
mirth to excess and folly. When we trifle, we trifle in good earnest;
and having once relaxed our hold of the helm, drift idly down the
stream, and delighted with the change are tossed about ‘by every
little breath’ of whim or caprice,
‘That under Heaven is blown.’
All we then want is to proclaim a truce with reason, and to be pleased

with as little expense of thought or pretension to wisdom as possible.
This licensed fooling is carried to its very utmost length in
Shakspeare, and in some other of our elder dramatists, without,
perhaps, sufficient warrant or the same excuse. Nothing can justify
this extreme relaxation but extreme tension. Shakspeare’s trifling
does indeed tread upon the very borders of vacancy: his meaning
often hangs by the very slenderest threads. For this he might be
blamed if it did not take away our breath to follow his eagle flights, or
if he did not at other times make the cordage of our hearts crack.
After our heads ache with thinking, it is fair to play the fool. The
clowns were as proper an appendage to the gravity of our antique
literature, as fools and dwarfs were to the stately dignity of courts
and noble houses in former days. Of all people, they have the best
right to claim a total exemption from rules and rigid formality, who,
when they have any thing of importance to do, set about it with the
greatest earnestness and perseverance, and are generally grave and
sober to a proverb.[7] Poor Swift, who wrote more idle or nonsense
verses than any man, was the severest of moralists; and his feelings
and observations morbidly acute. Did not Lord Byron himself follow
up his Childe Harold with his Don Juan?—not that I insist on what
he did as an illustration of the English character. He was one of the
English Nobility, not one of the English People; and his occasional
ease and familiarity were in my mind equally constrained and
affected, whether in relation to the pretensions of his rank or the
efforts of his genius.
They ask you in France, how you pass your time in England
without amusements; and can with difficulty believe that there are
theatres in London, still less that they are larger and handsomer than
those in Paris. That we should have comic actors, ‘they own,
surprises them.’ They judge of the English character in the lump as
one great jolter-head, containing all the stupidity of the country, as
the large ball at the top of the Dispensary in Warwick-lane, from its
resemblance to a gilded pill, has been made to represent the whole
pharmacopœia and professional quackery of the kingdom. They have
no more notion, for instance, how we should have such an actor as
Liston on our stage, than if we were to tell them we have parts
performed by a sea-otter; nor if they were to see him, would they be
much the wiser, or know what to think of his unaccountable twitches
of countenance or nondescript gestures, of his teeth chattering in his
head, his eyes that seem dropping from their sockets, his nose that is
tickled by a jest as by a feather and shining with self-complacency as
if oiled, his ignorant conceit, his gaping stupor, his lumpish vivacity
in Lubin Log or Tony Lumpkin; for as our rivals do not wind up the
machine to such a determined intensity of purpose, neither have they
any idea of its running down to such degrees of imbecility and folly,
or coming to an absolute stand still and lack of meaning, nor can
they enter into or be amused with the contrast. No people ever laugh
heartily who can give a reason for their doing so: and I believe the
English in general are not yet in this predicament. They are not
metaphysical, but very much in a state of nature; and this is one
main ground why I give them credit for being merry,
notwithstanding appearances. Their mirth is not the mirth of vice or
desperation, but of innocence and a native wildness. They do not
cavil or boggle at niceties, and not merely come to the edge of a joke,
but break their necks over it with a wanton ‘Here goes,’ where others
make a pirouette and stand upon decorum. The French cannot,
however, be persuaded of the excellence of our comic stage, nor of
the store we set by it. When they ask what amusements we have, it is
plain they can never have heard of Mrs. Jordan, nor King, nor
Bannister, nor Suett, nor Munden, nor Lewis, nor little Simmons,
nor Dodd, and Parsons, and Emery, and Miss Pope, and Miss Farren,
and all those who even in my time have gladdened a nation and
‘made life’s business like a summer’s dream.’ Can I think of them,
and of their names that glittered in the playbills when I was young,
exciting all the flutter of hope and expectation of seeing them in their
favourite parts of Nell, or Little Pickle, or Touchstone, or Sir Peter
Teazle, or Lenitive in the Prize, or Lingo, or Crabtree, or Nipperkin,
or old Dornton, or Ranger, or the Copper Captain, or Lord Sands, or
Filch, or Moses, or Sir Andrew Aguecheek, or Acres, or Elbow, or
Hodge, or Flora, or the Duenna, or Lady Teazle, or Lady Grace, or of
the gaiety that sparkled in all eyes, and the delight that overflowed all
hearts, as they glanced before us in these parts,
‘Throwing a gaudy shadow upon life,’—
and not feel my heart yearn within me, or couple the thoughts of
England and the spleen together? Our cloud has at least its rainbow
tints; ours is not one long polar night of cold and dulness, but we
have the gleaming lights of fancy to amuse us, the household fires of
truth and genius to warm us. We can go to a play and see Liston; or
stay at home and read Roderick Random; or have Hogarth’s prints of
Marriage à la Mode hanging round our room. ‘Tut! there’s livers
even in England,’ as well as ‘out of it.’ We are not quite the forlorn
hope of humanity, the last of nations. The French look at us across
the Channel, and seeing nothing but water and a cloudy mist, think
that this is England.
——‘What’s our Britain
In the world’s volume? In a great pool a swan’s nest.’
If they have any farther idea of us, it is of George III. and our Jack
tars, the House of Lords and House of Commons, and this is no great
addition to us. To go beyond this, to talk of arts and elegances as
having taken up their abode here, or to say that Mrs. Abington was
equal to Mademoiselle Mars, and that we at one time got up the
‘School for Scandal,’ as they do the ‘Misanthrope,’ is to persuade
them that Iceland is a pleasant summer-retreat, or to recommend the
whale-fishery as a classical amusement. The French are the cockneys
of Europe, and have no idea how any one can exist out of Paris, or be
alive without incessant grimace and jabber. Yet what imports it?
What! though the joyous train I have just enumerated were, perhaps,
never heard of in the precincts of the Palais-Royal, is it not enough
that they gave pleasure where they were, to those who saw and heard
them? Must our laugh, to be sincere, have its echo on the other side
of the water? Had not the French their favourites and their
enjoyments at the time, that we knew nothing of? Why then should
we not have ours (and boast of them too) without their leave? A
monopoly of self-conceit is not a monopoly of all other advantages.
The English, when they go abroad, do not take away the prejudice
against them by their looks. We seem duller and sadder than we are.
As I write this, I am sitting in the open air in a beautiful valley, near
Vevey: Clarens is on my left, the Dent de Jamant is behind me, the
rocks of Meillerie opposite: under my feet is a green bank, enamelled
with white and purple flowers, in which a dew-drop here and there
still glitters with pearly light—
‘And gaudy butterflies flutter around.’
Intent upon the scene and upon the thoughts that stir within me, I
conjure up the cheerful passages of my life, and a crowd of happy
images appear before me. No one would see it in my looks—my eyes
grow dull and fixed, and I seem rooted to the spot, as all this
phantasmagoria passes in review before me, glancing a reflex lustre
on the face of the world and nature. But the traces of pleasure, in my
case, sink into an absorbent ground of thoughtful melancholy, and
require to be brought out by time and circumstances, or (as the
critics tell you) by the varnish of style!
The comfort, on which the English lay so much stress, is of the
same character, and arises from the same source as their mirth. Both
exist by contrast and a sort of contradiction. The English are
certainly the most uncomfortable of all people in themselves, and
therefore it is that they stand in need of every kind of comfort and
accommodation. The least thing puts them out of their way, and
therefore every thing must be in its place. They are mightily offended
at disagreeable tastes and smells, and therefore they exact the utmost
neatness and nicety. They are sensible of heat and cold, and
therefore they cannot exist, unless every thing is snug and warm, or
else open and airy, where they are. They must have ‘all appliances
and means to boot.’ They are afraid of interruption and intrusion,
and therefore they shut themselves up in in-door enjoyments and by
their own firesides. It is not that they require luxuries (for that
implies a high degree of epicurean indulgence and gratification), but
they cannot do without their comforts; that is, whatever tends to
supply their physical wants, and ward off physical pain and
annoyance. As they have not a fund of animal spirits and enjoyments
in themselves, they cling to external objects for support, and derive
solid satisfaction from the ideas of order, cleanliness, plenty,
property, and domestic quiet, as they seek for diversion from odd
accidents and grotesque surprises, and have the highest possible
relish not of voluptuous softness, but of hard knocks and dry blows,
as one means of ascertaining their personal identity.
OF PERSONS ONE WOULD WISH TO HAVE
SEEN
The New Monthly Magazine.]

[January, 1826.
‘Come like shadows—so depart.’
B—— it was, I think, who suggested this subject, as well as the

defence of Guy Faux, which I urged him to execute. As, however, he
would undertake neither, I suppose I must do both—a task for which
he would have been much fitter, no less from the temerity than the
felicity of his pen—
‘Never so sure our rapture to create
As when it touch’d the brink of all we hate.’
Compared with him I shall, I fear, make but a common-place piece of

business of it; but I should be loth the idea was entirely lost, and
besides I may avail myself of some hints of his in the progress of it. I
am sometimes, I suspect, a better reporter of the ideas of other
people than expounder of my own. I pursue the one too far into
paradox or mysticism; the others I am not bound to follow farther
than I like, or than seems fair and reasonable.
On the question being started, A—— said, ‘I suppose the two first
persons you would choose to see would be the two greatest names in
English literature, Sir Isaac Newton and Mr. Locke?’ In this A——, as
usual, reckoned without his host. Every one burst out a laughing at
the expression of B——’s face, in which impatience was restrained by
courtesy. ‘Yes, the greatest names,’ he stammered out hastily, ‘but
they were not persons—not persons.’—‘Not persons?’ said A——,
looking wise and foolish at the same time, afraid his triumph might
be premature. ‘That is,’ rejoined B——, ‘not characters, you know. By
Mr. Locke and Sir Isaac Newton, you mean the Essay on the Human
Understanding, and the Principia, which we have to this day. Beyond
their contents there is nothing personally interesting in the men. But
what we want to see any one bodily for, is when there is something
peculiar, striking in the individuals, more than we can learn from
their writings, and yet are curious to know. I dare say Locke and
Newton were very like Kneller’s portraits of them. But who could
paint Shakspeare?’—‘Ay,’ retorted A——, ‘there it is; then I suppose
you would prefer seeing him and Milton instead?’—‘No,’ said B——,
‘neither. I have seen so much of Shakspeare on the stage and on
book-stalls, in frontispieces and on mantle-pieces, that I am quite
tired of the everlasting repetition: and as to Milton’s face, the
impressions that have come down to us of it I do not like; it is too
starched and puritanical; and I should be afraid of losing some of the
manna of his poetry in the leaven of his countenance and the
precisian’s band and gown.’—‘I shall guess no more,’ said A——.
‘Who is it, then, you would like to see “in his habit as he lived,” if you
had your choice of the whole range of English literature?’ B—— then
named Sir Thomas Brown and Fulke Greville, the friend of Sir Philip
Sidney, as the two worthies whom he should feel the greatest
pleasure to encounter on the floor of his apartment in their
nightgown and slippers, and to exchange friendly greeting with
them. At this A—— laughed outright, and conceived B—— was jesting
with him; but as no one followed his example, he thought there
might be something in it, and waited for an explanation in a state of
whimsical suspense. B—— then (as well as I can remember a
conversation that passed twenty years ago—how time slips!) went on
as follows. ‘The reason why I pitch upon these two authors is, that
their writings are riddles, and they themselves the most mysterious
of personages. They resemble the soothsayers of old, who dealt in
dark hints and doubtful oracles; and I should like to ask them the
meaning of what no mortal but themselves, I should suppose, can
fathom. There is Dr. Johnson, I have no curiosity, no strange
uncertainty about him: he and Boswell together have pretty well let
me into the secret of what passed through his mind. He and other
writers like him are sufficiently explicit: my friends, whose repose I
should be tempted to disturb, (were it in my power) are implicit,
inextricable, inscrutable.
“And call up him who left half-told
The story of Cambuscan bold.”
‘When I look at that obscure but gorgeous prose-composition (the

Urn-burial) I seem to myself to look into a deep abyss, at the bottom
of which are hid pearls and rich treasure; or it is like a stately
labyrinth of doubt and withering speculation, and I would invoke the
spirit of the author to lead me through it. Besides, who would not be
curious to see the lineaments of a man who, having himself been
twice married, wished that mankind were propagated like trees! As
to Fulke Greville, he is like nothing but one of his own “Prologues
spoken by the ghost of an old king of Ormus,” a truly formidable and
inviting personage: his style is apocalyptical, cabalistical, a knot
worthy of such an apparition to untie; and for the unravelling a
passage or two, I would stand the brunt of an encounter with so
portentous a commentator!’—‘I am afraid in that case,’ said A——,
‘that if the mystery were once cleared up, the merit might be lost;‘—
and turning to me, whispered a friendly apprehension, that while B
—— continued to admire these old crabbed authors, he would never
become a popular writer. Dr. Donne was mentioned as a writer of the
same period, with a very interesting countenance, whose history was
singular, and whose meaning was often quite as uncomeatable,
without a personal citation from the dead, as that of any of his
contemporaries. The volume was produced; and while some one was
expatiating on the exquisite simplicity and beauty of the portrait
prefixed to the old edition, A—— got hold of the poetry, and
exclaiming ‘What have we here?’ read the following:—
‘Here lies a She-Sun and a He-Moon there,
She gives the best light to his sphere,
Or each is both and all, and so
They unto one another nothing owe.’
There was no resisting this, till B——, seizing the volume, turned to
the beautiful ‘Lines to his Mistress,’ dissuading her from
accompanying him abroad, and read them with suffused features and
a faltering tongue.
‘By our first strange and fatal interview,
By all desires which thereof did ensue,
By our long starving hopes, by that remorse
Which my words’ masculine persuasive force
Begot in thee, and by the memory
Of hurts, which spies and rivals threaten’d me,
I calmly beg. But by thy father’s wrath,
By all pains which want and divorcement hath,
I conjure thee; and all the oaths which I
And thou have sworn to seal joint constancy
Here I unswear, and overswear them thus,
Thou shalt not love by ways so dangerous.
Temper, oh fair Love! love’s impetuous rage,
Be my true mistress still, not my feign’d Page;
I’ll go, and, by thy kind leave, leave behind
Thee, only worthy to nurse in my mind.
Thirst to come back; oh, if thou die before,
My soul from other lands to thee shall soar.
Thy (else Almighty) beauty cannot move
Rage from the seas, nor thy love teach them love,
Nor tame wild Boreas’ harshness; thou hast read
How roughly he in pieces shiver’d
Fair Orithea, whom he swore he lov’d.
Fall ill or good, ’tis madness to have prov’d
Dangers unurg’d: Feed on this flattery,
That absent lovers one with th’ other be.
Dissemble nothing, not a boy; nor change
Thy body’s habit, nor mind; be not strange
To thyself only. All will spy in thy face
A blushing, womanly, discovering grace.
Richly cloth’d apes are called apes, and as soon
Eclips’d as bright we call the moon the moon.
Men of France, changeable cameleons,
Spittles of diseases, shops of fashions,
Love’s fuellers, and the rightest company
Of players, which upon the world’s stage be,
Will quickly know thee.... O stay here! for thee
England is only a worthy gallery,
To walk in expectation; till from thence
Our greatest King call thee to his presence.
When I am gone, dream me some happiness,
Nor let thy looks our long hid love confess,
Nor praise, nor dispraise me; nor bless, nor curse
Openly love’s force, nor in bed fright thy nurse
With midnight startings, crying out, Oh, oh,
Nurse, oh, my love is slain, I saw him go
O’er the white Alps alone; I saw him, I,
Assail’d, fight, taken, stabb’d, bleed, fall, and die.
Augur me better chance, except dread Jove
Think it enough for me to have had thy love.’
Some one then inquired of B—— if we could not see from the
window the Temple-walk in which Chaucer used to take his exercise;
and on his name being put to the vote, I was pleased to find that
there was a general sensation in his favour in all but A——, who said
something about the ruggedness of the metre, and even objected to
the quaintness of the orthography. I was vexed at this superficial
gloss, pertinaciously reducing every thing to its own trite level, and
asked ‘if he did not think it would be worth while to scan the eye that
had first greeted the Muse in that dim twilight and early dawn of
English literature; to see the head, round which the visions of fancy
must have played like gleams of inspiration or a sudden glory; to
watch those lips that “lisped in numbers, for the numbers came”—as
by a miracle, or as if the dumb should speak? Nor was it alone that he
had been the first to tune his native tongue (however imperfectly to
modern ears); but he was himself a noble, manly character, standing
before his age and striving to advance it; a pleasant humourist
withal, who has not only handed down to us the living manners of his
time, but had, no doubt, store of curious and quaint devices, and
would make as hearty a companion as Mine Host of Tabard. His
interview with Petrarch is fraught with interest. Yet I would rather
have seen Chaucer in company with the author of the Decameron,
and have heard them exchange their best stories together, the
Squire’s Tale against the Story of the Falcon, the Wife of Bath’s
Prologue against the Adventures of Friar Albert. How fine to see the
high mysterious brow which learning then wore, relieved by the gay,
familiar tone of men of the world, and by the courtesies of genius.
Surely, the thoughts and feelings which passed through the minds of
these great revivers of learning, these Cadmuses who sowed the teeth
of letters, must have stamped an expression on their features, as
different from the moderns as their books, and well worth the
perusal. Dante,’ I continued, ‘is as interesting a person as his own
Ugolino, one whose lineaments curiosity would as eagerly devour in
order to penetrate his spirit, and the only one of the Italian poets I
should care much to see. There is a fine portrait of Ariosto by no less
a hand than Titian’s; light, Moorish, spirited, but not answering our
idea. The same artist’s large colossal profile of Peter Aretine is the
only likeness of the kind that has the effect of conversing with “the
mighty dead,” and this is truly spectral, ghastly, necromantic.’ B——
put it to me if I should like to see Spenser as well as Chaucer; and I
answered without hesitation, ‘No; for that his beauties were ideal,
visionary, not palpable or personal, and therefore connected with
less curiosity about the man. His poetry was the essence of romance,
a very halo round the bright orb of fancy; and the bringing in the
individual might dissolve the charm. No tones of voice could come
up to the mellifluous cadence of his verse; no form but of a winged
angel could vie with the airy shapes he has described. He was (to our
apprehensions) rather “a creature of the element, that lived in the
rainbow and played in the plighted clouds,” than an ordinary mortal.
Or if he did appear, I should wish it to be as a mere vision, like one of
his own pageants, and that he should pass by unquestioned like a
dream or sound—
——“That was Arion crown’d:
So went he playing on the wat’ry plain!”’
Captain C. muttered something about Columbus, and M. C. hinted

at the Wandering Jew; but the last was set aside as spurious, and the
first made over to the New World.
‘I should like,’ said Miss D——, ‘to have seen Pope talking with
Patty Blount; and I have seen Goldsmith.’ Every one turned round to
look at Miss D——, as if by so doing they too could get a sight of
Goldsmith.
‘Where,’ asked a harsh croaking voice, ‘was Dr. Johnson in the
years 1745–6? He did not write any thing that we know of, nor is
there any account of him in Boswell during those two years. Was he
in Scotland with the Pretender? He seems to have passed through
the scenes in the Highlands in company with Boswell many years
after “with lack-lustre eye,” yet as if they were familiar to him, or
associated in his mind with interests that he durst not explain. If so,
it would be an additional reason for my liking him; and I would give
something to have seen him seated in the tent with the youthful
Majesty of Britain, and penning the Proclamation to all true subjects
and adherents of the legitimate Government.’
‘I thought,’ said A——, turning short round upon B——, ‘that you of
the Lake School did not like Pope?’—‘Not like Pope! My dear sir, you
must be under a mistake—I can read him over and over for
ever!’—‘Why certainly, the “Essay on Man” must be masterpiece.’—‘It
may be so, but I seldom look into it.’—‘Oh! then it’s his Satires you
admire?’—‘No, not his Satires, but his friendly Epistles and his
compliments.’—‘Compliments! I did not know he ever made
any.’—‘The finest,’ said B——, ‘that were ever paid by the wit of man.
Each of them is worth an estate for life—nay, is an immortality.
There is that superb one to Lord Cornbury:
“Despise low joys, low gains;
Disdain whatever Cornbury disdains;
Be virtuous, and be happy for your pains.”
‘Was there ever more artful insinuation of idolatrous praise? And

then that noble apotheosis of his friend Lord Mansfield (however
little deserved), when, speaking of the House of Lords, he adds—
“Conspicuous scene! another yet is nigh,
(More silent far) where kings and poets lie;
Where Murray (long enough his country’s pride)
Shall be no more than Tully or than Hyde!”
‘And with what a fine turn of indignant flattery he addresses Lord

Bolingbroke—
“Why rail they then, if but one wreath of mine,
Oh! all accomplish’d St. John, deck thy shrine?”
‘Or turn,’ continued B——, with a slight hectic on his cheek and his
eye glistening, ‘to his list of early friends:
“But why then publish? Granville the polite,
And knowing Walsh, would tell me I could write;
Well-natured Garth inflamed with early praise,
And Congreve loved and Swift endured my lays:
The courtly Talbot, Somers, Sheffield read,
Ev’n mitred Rochester would nod the head;
And St. John’s self (great Dryden’s friend before)
Received with open arms one poet more.
Happy my studies, if by these approved!
Happier their author, if by these beloved!
From these the world will judge of men and books,
Not from the Burnets, Oldmixons, and Cooks.”’
Here his voice totally failed him, and throwing down the book, he
said, ‘Do you think I would not wish to have been friends with such a
man as this?’
‘What say you to Dryden?’—‘He rather made a show of himself,
and courted popularity in that lowest temple of Fame, a coffee-
house, so as in some measure to vulgarize one’s idea of him. Pope, on
the contrary, reached the very beau-ideal of what a poet’s life should
be; and his fame while living seemed to be an emanation from that
which was to circle his name after death. He was so far enviable (and
one would feel proud to have witnessed the rare spectacle in him)
that he was almost the only poet and man of genius who met with his
reward on this side of the tomb, who realized in friends, fortune, the
esteem of the world, the most sanguine hopes of a youthful ambition,
and who found that sort of patronage from the great during his
lifetime which they would be thought anxious to bestow upon him
after his death. Read Gay’s verses to him on his supposed return
from Greece, after his translation of Homer was finished, and say if
you would not gladly join the bright procession that welcomed him
home, or see it once more land at Whitehall-stairs.’—‘Still,’ said Miss
D——, ‘I would rather have seen him talking with Patty Blount, or
riding by in a coronet-coach with Lady Mary Wortley Montagu!’
E——, who was deep in a game of piquet at the other end of the
room, whispered to M. C. to ask if Junius would not be a fit person to
invoke from the dead. ‘Yes,’ said B——, ‘provided he would agree to
lay aside his mask.’
We were now at a stand for a short time, when Fielding was
mentioned as a candidate: only one, however, seconded the
proposition. ‘Richardson?’—‘By all means, but only to look at him
through the glass-door of his back-shop, hard at work upon one of
his novels (the most extraordinary contrast that ever was presented
between an author and his works), but not to let him come behind
his counter lest he should want you to turn customer, nor to go
upstairs with him, lest he should offer to read the first manuscript of
Sir Charles Grandison, which was originally written in eight and
twenty volumes octavo, or get out the letters of his female
correspondents, to prove that Joseph Andrews was low.’
There was but one statesman in the whole of English history that
any one expressed the least desire to see—Oliver Cromwell, with his
fine, frank, rough, pimply face, and wily policy;—and one enthusiast,
John Bunyan, the immortal author of the Pilgrim’s Progress. It
seemed that if he came into the room, dreams would follow him, and
that each person would nod under his golden cloud, ‘nigh-sphered in
Heaven,’ a canopy as strange and stately as any in Homer.
Of all persons near our own time, Garrick’s name was received
with the greatest enthusiasm, who was proposed by J. F——. He
presently superseded both Hogarth and Handel, who had been
talked of, but then it was on condition that he should act in tragedy
and comedy, in the play and the farce, Lear and Wildair and Abel
Drugger. What a sight for sore eyes that would be! Who would not
part with a year’s income at least, almost with a year of his natural
life, to be present at it? Besides, as he could not act alone, and
recitations are unsatisfactory things, what a troop he must bring with
him—the silver-tongued Barry, and Quin, and Shuter and Weston,
and Mrs. Clive and Mrs. Pritchard, of whom I have heard my father
speak as so great a favourite when he was young! This would indeed
be a revival of the dead, the restoring of art; and so much the more
desirable, as such is the lurking scepticism mingled with our
overstrained admiration of past excellence, that though we have the
speeches of Burke, the portraits of Reynolds, the writings of
Goldsmith, and the conversation of Johnson, to show what people
could do at that period, and to confirm the universal testimony to the
merits of Garrick; yet, as it was before our time, we have our
misgivings, as if he was probably after all little better than a
Bartlemy-fair actor, dressed out to play Macbeth in a scarlet coat and
laced cocked-hat. For one, I should like to have seen and heard with
my own eyes and ears. Certainly, by all accounts, if any one was ever
moved by the true histrionic æstus, it was Garrick. When he followed
the Ghost in Hamlet, he did not drop the sword, as most actors do
behind the scenes, but kept the point raised the whole way round, so
fully was he possessed with the idea, or so anxious not to lose sight of
his part for a moment. Once at a splendid dinner-party at Lord ——’s,
they suddenly missed Garrick, and could not imagine what was
become of him, till they were drawn to the window by the convulsive
screams and peals of laughter of a young negro boy, who was rolling
on the ground in an ecstasy of delight to see Garrick mimicking a
turkey-cock in the court-yard, with his coat-tail stuck out behind,
and in a seeming flutter of feathered rage and pride. Of our party
only two persons present had seen the British Roscius; and they
seemed as willing as the rest to renew their acquaintance with their
old favourite.
We were interrupted in the hey-day and mid-career of this fanciful
speculation, by a grumbler in a corner, who declared it was a shame
to make all this rout about a mere player and farce-writer, to the
neglect and exclusion of the fine old dramatists, the contemporaries
and rivals of Shakspeare. B—— said he had anticipated this objection
when he had named the author of Mustapha and Alaham; and out of
caprice insisted upon keeping him to represent the set, in preference
to the wild hair-brained enthusiast Kit Marlowe; to the sexton of St.
Ann’s, Webster, with his melancholy yew-trees and death’s-heads; to
Deckar, who was but a garrulous proser; to the voluminous
Heywood; and even to Beaumont and Fletcher, whom we might
offend by complimenting the wrong author on their joint
productions. Lord Brook, on the contrary, stood quite by himself, or
in Cowley’s words, was ‘a vast species alone.’ Some one hinted at the
circumstance of his being a lord, which rather startled B——, but he
said a ghost would perhaps dispense with strict etiquette, on being
regularly addressed by his title. Ben Jonson divided our suffrages
pretty equally. Some were afraid he would begin to traduce
Shakspeare, who was not present to defend himself. ‘If he grows
disagreeable,’ it was whispered aloud, ‘there is G—— can match him.’
At length, his romantic visit to Drummond of Hawthornden was
mentioned, and turned the scale in his favour.
B—— inquired if there was any one that was hanged that I would
choose to mention? And I answered, Eugene Aram.[8] The name of
the ‘Admirable Crichton’ was suddenly started as a splendid example
of waste talents, so different from the generality of his countrymen.
This choice was mightily approved by a North-Briton present, who
declared himself descended from that prodigy of learning and
accomplishment, and said he had family-plate in his possession as
vouchers for the fact, with the initials A. C.—Admirable Crichton! H
—— laughed or rather roared as heartily at this as I should think he
has done for many years.
The last-named Mitre-courtier[9] then wished to know whether
there were any metaphysicians to whom one might be tempted to
apply the wizard spell? I replied, there were only six in modern times
deserving the name—Hobbes, Berkeley, Butler, Hartley, Hume,
Leibnitz; and perhaps Jonathan Edwards, a Massachusets man.[10] As
to the French, who talked fluently of having created this science,
there was not a title in any of their writings, that was not to be found
literally in the authors I had mentioned. [Horne Tooke, who might
have a claim to come in under the head of Grammar, was still living.]
None of these names seemed to excite much interest, and I did not
plead for the re-appearance of those who might be thought best fitted
by the abstracted nature of their studies for their present spiritual
and disembodied state, and who, even while on this living stage, were
nearly divested of common flesh and blood. As A—— with an uneasy
fidgetty face was about to put some question about Mr. Locke and
Dugald Stewart, he was prevented by M. C. who observed, ‘If J——
was here, he would undoubtedly be for having up those profound
and redoubted scholiasts, Thomas Aquinas and Duns Scotus.’ I said
this might be fair enough in him who had read or fancied he had read
the original works, but I did not see how we could have any right to
call up these authors to give an account of themselves in person, till
we had looked into their writings.
By this time it should seem that some rumour of our whimsical
deliberation had got wind, and had disturbed the irritabile genus in
their shadowy abodes, for we received messages from several
candidates that we had just been thinking of. Gray declined our
invitation, though he had not yet been asked: Gay offered to come
and bring in his hand the Duchess of Bolton, the original Polly:
Steele and Addison left their cards as Captain Sentry and Sir Roger
de Coverley: Swift came in and sat down without speaking a word,
and quitted the room as abruptly: Otway and Chatterton were seen
lingering on the opposite side of the Styx, but could not muster
enough between them to pay Charon his fare: Thomson fell asleep in
the boat, and was rowed back again—and Burns sent a low fellow,
one John Barleycorn, an old companion of his who had conducted
him to the other world, to say that he had during his lifetime been
drawn out of his retirement as a show, only to be made an exciseman
of, and that he would rather remain where he was. He desired,
however, to shake hands by his representative—the hand, thus held
out, was in a burning fever, and shook prodigiously.
The room was hung round with several portraits of eminent
painters. While we were debating whether we should demand speech
with these masters of mute eloquence, whose features were so
familiar to us, it seemed that all at once they glided from their
frames, and seated themselves at some little distance from us. There
was Leonardo with his majestic beard and watchful eye, having a
bust of Archimedes before him; next him was Raphael’s graceful
head turned round to the Fornarina; and on his other side was
Lucretia Borgia, with calm, golden locks; Michael Angelo had placed
the model of St. Peter’s on the table before him; Corregio had an
angel at his side; Titian was seated with his Mistress between himself
and Giorgioni; Guido was accompanied by his own Aurora, who took
a dice-box from him; Claude held a mirror in his hand; Rubens
patted a beautiful panther (led in by a satyr) on the head; Vandyke
appeared as his own Paris, and Rembrandt was hid under furs, gold
chains and jewels, which Sir Joshua eyed closely, holding his hand so
as to shade his forehead. Not a word was spoken; and as we rose to
do them homage, they still presented the same surface to the view.
Not being bonâ-fide representations of living people, we got rid of
the splendid apparitions by signs and dumb show. As soon as they
had melted into thin air, there was a loud noise at the outer door,
and we found it was Giotto, Cimabue, and Ghirlandaio, who had
been raised from the dead by their earnest desire to see their
illustrious successors—
‘Whose names on earth
In Fame’s eternal records live for aye!’
Finding them gone, they had no ambition to be seen after them,

and mournfully withdrew. ‘Egad!’ said B——, ‘those are the very
fellows I should like to have had some talk with, to know how they
could see to paint when all was dark around them?’
‘But shall we have nothing to say,’ interrogated G. J——, ‘to the
Legend of Good Women?’—‘Name, name, Mr. J——,’ cried H—— in a
boisterous tone of friendly exultation, ‘name as many as you please,
without reserve or fear of molestation!’ J—— was perplexed between
so many amiable recollections, that the name of the lady of his choice
expired in a pensive whiff of his pipe; and B—— impatiently declared
for the Duchess of Newcastle. Mrs. Hutchinson was no sooner
mentioned, than she carried the day from the Duchess. We were the
less solicitous on this subject of filling up the posthumous lists of
Good Women, as there was already one in the room as good, as
sensible, and in all respects as exemplary, as the best of them could
be for their lives! ‘I should like vastly to have seen Ninon de l’Enclos,’
said that incomparable person; and this immediately put us in mind
that we had neglected to pay honour due to our friends on the other
side of the Channel: Voltaire, the patriarch of levity, and Rousseau,
the father of sentiment, Montaigne and Rabelais (great in wisdom
and in wit), Moliere and that illustrious group that are collected
round him (in the print of that subject) to hear him read his comedy
of the Tartuffe at the house of Ninon; Racine, La Fontaine,
Rochefoucault, St. Evremont, &c.
‘There is one person,’ said a shrill, querulous voice, ‘I would rather
see than all these—Don Quixote!’
‘Come, come!’ said H——; ‘I thought we should have no heroes,
real or fabulous. What say you, Mr. B——? Are you for eking out your
shadowy list with such names as Alexander, Julius Cæsar,
Tamerlane, or Ghengis Khan?’—‘Excuse me,’ said B——, ‘on the
subject of characters in active life, plotters and disturbers of the
world, I have a crotchet of my own, which I beg leave to
reserve.’—‘No, no! come, out with your worthies!’—‘What do you
think of Guy Faux and Judas Iscariot?’ H—— turned an eye upon him
like a wild Indian, but cordial and full of smothered glee. ‘Your most
exquisite reason!’ was echoed on all sides; and A—— thought that B
—— had now fairly entangled himself. ‘Why, I cannot but think,’
retorted he of the wistful countenance, ‘that Guy Faux, that poor
fluttering annual scare-crow of straw and rags, is an ill-used
gentleman. I would give something to see him sitting pale and
emaciated, surrounded by his matches and his barrels of gunpowder,
and expecting the moment that was to transport him to Paradise for
his heroic self-devotion; but if I say any more, there is that fellow G
—— will make something of it. And as to Judas Iscariot, my reason is
different. I would fain see the face of him, who, having dipped his
hand in the same dish with the Son of Man, could afterwards betray
him. I have no conception of such a thing; nor have I ever seen any
picture (not even Leonardo’s very fine one) that gave me the least
idea of it.’—‘You have said enough, Mr. B——, to justify your choice.’
‘Oh! ever right, Menenius,—ever right!’
‘There is only one other person I can ever think of after this,’
continued H——; but without mentioning a name that once put on a
semblance of mortality. ‘If Shakspeare was to come into the room, we
should all rise up to meet him; but if that person was to come into it,
we should all fall down and try to kiss the hem of his garment!’
As a lady present seemed now to get uneasy at the turn the
conversation had taken, we rose up to go. The morning broke with
that dim, dubious light by which Giotto, Cimabue, and Ghirlandaio
must have seen to paint their earliest works; and we parted to meet
again and renew similar topics at night, the next night, and the night
after that, till that night overspread Europe which saw no dawn. The
same event, in truth, broke up our little Congress that broke up the
great one. But that was to meet again: our deliberations have never
been resumed.
ON THE CONVERSATION OF LORDS
The New Monthly Magazine.]

[April, 1826.
‘An infinite deal of nothing,’—Shakspeare.
The conversation of Lords is very different from that of authors.

Mounted on horseback, they stick at nothing in the chace, and clear
every obstacle with flying leaps, while we poor devils have no chance
of keeping up with them with our clouten shoes and long hunting-
poles. They have all the benefit of education, society, confidence,
they read books, purchase pictures, breed horses, learn to ride,
dance, and fence, look after their estates, travel abroad:—authors
have none of these advantages, or inlets of knowledge, to assist them,
except one, reading; and this is still more impoverished and clouded
by the painful exercise of their own thoughts. The knowledge of the
Great has a character of wealth and property in it, like the stores of
the rich merchant or manufacturer, who lays his hands on all within
his reach: the understanding of the student is like the workshop of
the mechanic, who has nothing but what he himself creates. How
difficult is the production, how small the display in the one case
compared to the other! Most of Correggio’s designs are contained in
one small room at Parma: how different from the extent and variety
of some hereditary and princely collections!
The human mind has a trick (probably a very natural and
consoling one) of striking a balance between the favours of wisdom
and of fortune, and of making one thing a gratuitous and convenient
foil to another. Whether this is owing to envy or to a love of justice, I
will not say: but whichever it is owing to, I must own I do not think it
well founded. A scholar is without money: therefore (to make the

An Examination of Latinx LGBT Populations Across The United States: Intersections of Race and Sexuality 1st Edition Antonio (Jay) Pastrana

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An Examination of Latinx LGBT Populations Across The United States: Intersections of Race and Sexuality 1st Edition Antonio (Jay) Pastrana

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An Examination of Latinx LGBT

Populations Across the United States:

An Examination of Black LGBT Populations Across the

An Examination of Asian and Pacific Islander LGBT

Blacksound: Making Race and Popular Music in the United

Critical Race Theory: Black Athletic Sporting

Intersections Across Disciplines: Interdisciplinarity

National Geographic Guide to National Parks of the

The Politics of United States Foreign Policy Eighth

Bible nation the United States of Hobby Lobby Museum Of

ISBN 978-1-137-56073-5 ISBN 978-1-137-56074-2 (eBook)

© The Editor(s) (if applicable) and The Author(s) 2017

Cover illustration: Cover pattern © Melisa Hasan

Printed on acid-free paper

This Palgrave Macmillan imprint is published by Springer Nature

3 Coming Out and Being Out 23

The Latinx LGBT Closet 30

4 Religion and Spirituality 33

6 The SJS Project: Phases of Research 55

Antonio (Jay) Pastrana, Jr. is an Associate Professor in the Sociology

Juan Battle is a Professor of Sociology, Public Health, and Urban Education

He is a Fulbright Senior Specialist; was the Fulbright Distinguished

Angelique Harris is a Director of the Center for Gender and Sexualities

Keywords Latinx LGBT communities Coming out Family life

One summer evening in 1996, Tomás M. was ready. After spending

© The Author(s) 2017 1

of 21 was something Tomás knew he had to tackle tactfully, given all of

“Does this mean you’re still a man?” asked a cousin.

seeks to build counter-narratives, which are often in conﬂict with people’s

NAMING AND LABELS

history of researchers documenting negative physical and mental health

LATINX LGBT COMMUNITIES

LATINX LGBTS COMING OUT

LATINX LGBT FAMILY LIFE

Research also documents close relationships between religion and family

LATINX LGBT SPIRITUALITY

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF LATINX LGBT SEXUALITY

high blood pressure and depression—are plentiful and disproportionately

ORGANIZATION OF THE BOOK

a number of different family conﬁgurations beyond that of the hetero-

Chandra, A., W. D. Mosher, and C. Copen. 2011. Sexual Behavior, Sexual

Lesbian Politics: National Imprints of a Worldwide Movement, 30–90. Philadelphia,

Kumashiro, K. 2001. Queer Students of Color and Antiracist, Anti-Heterosexist

Sedgwick, E. K. 1990. The Epistemology of the Closet. Berkeley: University of

Keywords Trans* issues Immigration Marriage Economics Health

© The Author(s) 2017 15

REALITY: In addition to marriage, Latinx LGBT people identiﬁed

trans*-identifying individuals in Puerto Rico (Santini and Sickles 2014).

The share of same-sex couple householders who are non-Hispanic White

All we then want is to proclaim a truce with reason, and to be pleased

The New Monthly Magazine.]

B—— it was, I think, who suggested this subject, as well as the

Compared with him I shall, I fear, make but a common-place piece of

‘When I look at that obscure but gorgeous prose-composition (the

Captain C. muttered something about Columbus, and M. C. hinted

‘Was there ever more artful insinuation of idolatrous praise? And

‘And with what a fine turn of indignant flattery he addresses Lord

Finding them gone, they had no ambition to be seen after them,

The New Monthly Magazine.]

The conversation of Lords is very different from that of authors.

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