Audio Transcript from Respondent 2 – Boiled egg & Chicken Stall Owner (Devinder Singh)

Introduction

Harshad – Good evening. This is Harshad. Its 6.15pm at Paonta Sahib. So I am interviewing one stall
vendor who sells (boiled) eggs. Can you please state your name.

Devinder Singh – Devinder Singh

Harshad – And how long have you been in this business?

Devinder Singh – (thinking) 80s

H – 1980s. So basically to tell you about him, he sells boiled eggs and they are priced at 10rs each. Can
you also please tell about yourself?

DS – What do you wish to ask?

H – Like why and since when are you doing this business?

DS – (talking slowly) I have been here since 1980. (he declined to tell anything further about himself
at this point)

H – Ok. So approximately how much do you earn from this business?

DS – See I come here at around 6pm in the evening and I am here till 9.00-9.30pm. Within this time
frame, I make around 200-150 rs

H – Per day, right. (DS nods his head) ok got it. So I will ask you this question first (get interrupted by
the customer) Please tend to the customer, I can wait a bit.

DS – No you go ahead and talk.

H – So my first question to you is have you ever used any digital app?

DS – (plainly nods his head in no) No

H – None?

DS – Can you please explain what do you mean by digital?

H – Well to put it in simple terms… Do you have any touchscreen phone (smartphone)

DS – Well I have only a simple phone (button phone)

(I had paused the recording to show him about different apps such a Google Pay, Google Maps,
Phonepe etc)

H – (continuing recording) Like I said there are different apps such as Google Pay, Google Maps. Or
even something similar. Since you have a stall, you don’t need to use a map. But apart from this there
are other transactions that you can do online (related to business). Like say someone comes and says
I don’t have money or I don’t have spare change. Or lets say someone orders large quantities of eggs
at once. Like 10-20 eggs. Don’t they have any option to pay online? Or do you accept only cash?

DS – Well I will accept only cash.

H – And you have never used Google Pay etc (digital transaction apps)
DS – No. I haven’t used.

H – And what is the reason? Like you haven’t used any smartphone. Didn’t you even tried it?

DS – Well I haven’t tried smartphone mainly because I am not interested in using it. I don’t know how
to operate it. And the phone is in English, not in Hindi or other language. I don’t know English.

H - Yes the interface is in English.

DS – Actually that is why I don’t use Google Pay (and other digital transaction apps). Also, for me its
like whatever I earn in the day, I have to buy supplies from it for next day and I spend the amount in
the morning purchasing supplies.

H – So whatever you make, you put it to buy goods the next day.

(DS Nods saying yes)

H – Also, I wanted to ask if you have any kids.

DS – Yes. I have 2 boys and 3 girls

H – Did they never tried teaching you about this (online/digital technology). Asking just out of
curiousity

DS – Well, they did try. At times they even say I should see this (online/digital technology) but they
are not always available. And I don’t know how to use the system. So I prefer not to use it
(online/digital technology)

H – Do you have bank account? Like in SBI or other public or private bank?

DS – Yes. I do have.

H – And have you ever used that account to buy online?

DS – No. never been online.

H – Never once?

DS – No never. See I know (to read and write) a bit of Hindi but don’t know even a bit of English

H – So you might know (to read and write) Punjabi?

DS – Punjabi I do know, but then I am not educated, so I don’t know much about it (reading and
writing)

H – Just to confirm, till what standard have you finished your education?

DS – Its as good as zero

H – Ohhh. So how did you get into this business?

DS – Business is basically there. Its like if someone wishes to do something, he has that passion and
determination about it, then he will do it.

H – That is true.

DS – The main thing is that if a person wishes to work hard, then he can do anything.
H – Ok. (tries to bring the conversation back on track) I also had this question. (interrupted by a
customer) yeah you go ahead.

DS – Go ahead and speak (while continuing to serve coming customer)

H – So my question was that how did you manage to run your business in lockdown?

DS – Well everyone had their business shut, so was mine.

H – Then did you think of some other alternative? Like maybe trying to find some alternative business
and all

DS – No, well I have another business of mine that I manage during first half of the day

H – Ok. So you manage that business in the day and during evening you manage this stall

DS – Yes. This stall is open in evening

H – So what business do you do apart from this stall?

DS – Bakery supplies

H – Ok. So bakery products, and did you try to make that online (for payments, ordering and delivery
etc)

DS – Well, no. never tried.

H – But do your customers (the bakery shops) provide online services? Also, where (locations of stores)
do you supply?

DS – I supply to small shop owners

H – And where exactly (location)

DS – Here in paonta, badripur (main chowk in Paonta Sahib) Taruwala (another location in Paonta
Sahib), Bhuwanpur (another location), Nihalgarh (another location on outskirts of Paonta Sahib).
These are all industrial zones and I supply my products around this location.

H – Basically what all (products) do you supply?

DS – Buns (bread), biscuits etc

H – Ok. Bun, biscuits. Like general bakery products.

(DS nods his head in acknowledgement)

H – Another question. Lets just say if you are trained (on using digital technology). Like how to use it
and other related stuff about it. Something that also supports Hindi (and other local languages). Would
you like to you such a technology?

DS – No

H – No, not for this stall. I am talking about your other business (bakery product supplies)

DS – No

H – So you don’t wish to use or even try that (digital technologies)

DS – Well why will I use that if my work is being managed smoothly without it? Why will I go through
all the hassle of learning something new? There is no need to try if this (current way of doing business)
is being done without it.

H – Well then what are your views on the proliferation of digital technology and online media in India?
I am asking you about this since you have been here since a long time and have noticed all the subtle
changes (in terms of adoption of new technology) around you. So what are your observation about
usage of digital/online technology (for business) in and around other locations of Paonta Sahib

DS – The systems (businesses) are majorly run online (in terms of payment, ordering and other
transactions) maybe by others. But I have never looked into it.

H – Ok. So you have never thought about looking into it.

DS – No never thought about it.

(proceeds to serve one customer)

DS – I am focussed on my own work.

H – So whatever business you manage to do today, you are content about it

DS (nods) – Yes. Then I am done for the day

H – Ok. Also, there are many policies and schemes to promote their businesses online. Have you seen
that or do you know about it? Like Modi government had policy for small businesses to apply instant
loan online from your existing bank. Or even banks give different schemes for business loans.

DS – Not thought about loan. Like Modi government had a scheme (for business loans) that I don’t
recall about.

H – Yes I am talking about something like that

DS – Well they did call me (the bank). I went and checked. They called me 2-3 times in previous year.

(interrupted by customer, talks to him and serves him as per his requirements)

DS (continuing) – They did process my loan. But I didn’t take it.

DS – Why?

(respondent is still serving the customer, pause of few seconds)

DS – Well no business runs with 10000 rs as such a meagre amount.

H – So the amount was very low.

DS – Yes. That’s why I didn’t take it (the loan). What happens in 10000 rs (in terms of business
operations). You check background (of the business owner), talk about his requirements and then
disburse loan accordingly. Then it makes sense, else this 10000 rs is of no use (as a business loan)

H – Also, did you check the online stores such as Amazon, Flipkart. Your kids might be talking about it.
They even might be buying stuff

DS – Yes they do buy stuff online.

H – Means they do (shop online) but you don’t do

DS – No No. only they do. My kids do that (shop online)

H – Means even on personal basis you have never tried to go online

DS – Never tried. Like I said, I am not that qualified (in terms of education)

H – No but online browsing doesn’t require any qualifications. There is also some sort of curiosity to
check what others are using. Like Amazon app has a variety of offerings

DS – my kids do all that (on my behalf)

H – So you depend on them for any of your online (ordering and payment etc) requirements

DS – I have never faced any such problem where I have no one to help and I couldn’t do it because of
that. My kids are always there (to help for online stuff)

H – Well we have covered main parts. But apart from this what is your personal opinion of doing
business online. Like you have already said none of your existing business is online, even this stall
where you sell boiled eggs. But your other business, the bakery products one, it has a potential to go
online. Like I am not asking you (to start it online) but maybe someone else who is interested in it
(online bakery supplies)

DS – Yes that can happen. Like for instance the bakery from which I purchase supplies, it has online
facilities (for payment and delivery etc)

H – Ok. But you don’t wish to do that (use digital/online technologies)

DS – For me its like take and give hard cash. No need to keep any balance pending even for giving or
taking 10 rs from someone. Like what they say, borrowing and lending. But say, someday a customer
comes whom I know, and he is unable to pay today due to some reason then such small amount of
10-20 rs can be deferred to be paid tomorrow when he comes again.

H – maybe because he is a regular customer, he has that privilege

DS – yes that is manageable because of that.

H – yeah. Also in this business (boiled eggs stall) of yours, there can be no balance of payment systems

DS – Yes. This is true. And well to talk about my kids, they do all that stuff (online buying and payment).
They are well educated. My 3 daughters….

H (interrupts) – your kids must be graduated

DS – Well my sons are not graduated. They are still undergraduates. Like you know boys are not much
interested in studying. (laughs)

H – Well that is true. Boys are more interested in mischief than studies.

DS – My daughters are graduated. Even beyond graduation

H – Oh, so kind of post-graduate. That is nice. Well and what do your children do?

DS – One of my son is an operator at a local company

H – ok

DS – and other son works in a different company. Braza.

H – Ok Braza.

DS – Yes he works as a labourer in that company

H (nodding in agreement) – and lets just say you are travelling somewhere. Like lets look at the
personal aspect of online transactions. Since you don’t use any online apps, you must be keeping cash
with you at all times. What if instead of carrying cash, someone trains you to use some app that is very
simple to use….. Like say BHIM (UPI payment app). I am sure you must have heard about BHIM, that
is a kind of UPI. Now lets just say you use that UPI instead of cash or (debit/credit) card…. Have you
ever used (debit/credit) card?

DS – No. not used it

H – (surprised) ok

DS – See son, my life has been going great without it. I haven’t used it so far, maybe I don’t need to
use it now or even in future.

H – Yes. Everything is going fine so why worry

DS – Well I don’t need to look at it (something that I don’t know and I don’t wish to try).

H – And do you have some fixed time to do business? Like 6-9 everyday?

DS – yes. Well around 5.30 pm or around 6.00 pm during winters. And maybe a bit late in summers.
Somewhere around 7.00-7.30 pm.

H – So you usually arrive after sunset.

DS – Yes. Now people already know that I come around this time, so I don’t need to worry about my
sales. By 9.00-9.30 or around 10.00 I am here

H – So as the traffic on the road decreases, you start to leave.

DS – No not related to traffic and crowd. I usually leave around 10.00-10.30

H – Ok. Do you live nearby?

DS – Yes. I live nearby around B.Ed. college near Gurudwara Kirpal Shilla.

H – Ok. So around that side. So I know that area a bit. I am doing my Phd from IIM Sirmaur. You must
know about it. Its near dental college.

DS – yes. Near Dental college.

(proceeds to inform him a bit about my research process in detail)

DS – see the main thing that I will like to highlight is that there are many such schemes and policies
set up by government related to online business and other services and transactions. But I have never
focussed on that. Like I was saying before, its hard to manage (business) in 10-20 thousand rs. Now
tell me what is the use of such a scheme (that has no use)

H – that is true

(interrupted by a customer. Pause for a few seconds)

DS (continues) – We will need to travel to and fro from bank for EMIs, payment of loans and other
things for such a meagre amount. Who has time for all that.
H – Yes and that much efforts are not worth for such a small amount. I am sure that your daily or
weekly business must be more than the EMI amount to be paid

DS – That is why I believe in working hard. By working hard in your business, you can atleast make
your daily necessities met. Then why worry about other things

H – that is also true. Well one last question. Lets say in this location that you have put your stall, there
are other stalls nearby and you must know about them.

(DS nods in approval)

H – so out of these stalls, how many do you think are doing their business online (in terms of payment
transactions, delivery etc) and how many do you think are not online

DS – Well I Don’t know. I am concerned about my own business

H – But still, like you must have interacted with them. Or atleast seen them doing their business.

(DS shakes his head saying no)

H – ok so you haven’t see all that at all

DS – I keep only to myself. I don’t have much time to interact and mingle with other people (during
my business time)

H – yeah I can see that. There is a constant flow of customers

DS – Well not only here. Like in the morning I leave house at 7am for supplying (of bakery products to
the shops) and then return home at around 11-12, have lunch and all, taken a small nap and them
back to work for this stall. So I am least concerned about other people (other businesses)

H – But then you must know your nearby stall and must have interacted with them

DS – Well I know him. But I don’t know how and what kind of business he does

H – Ok so not concerned about what he is doing in his business

DS – no concern about other businesses at all

H – OK. So maybe we have covered almost everything

(I interacted with him for few more minutes and understood a bit about his thinking about other
things, trying to know him as it was surprising to find someone in the middle of the town who has
never been online or has been avoiding to use digital technologies)