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Socfal scientusts who study the mass medie shae  widely hekd"ideat of

Social scientists who study the mass media share widely held "ideal of
a
cpnservation"which aqtumes that face-to-face interparsenat communic-
conservation" which assumes that face-to-face interpersonal communica-
tion is cherecterized by caatinuaus feedback between participants, muti
tion is characterized by continuous feedback between participants, multi-
ch新nne carnmtnicatian, 6portaneou¥ urtranca。and 8gasiaian novms.
channel communication, spontaneous utterance, and egalitarian norms.
Conparad to this image of whatface-to-1ace corvarsetian i tike, com-
Compared to this image of what face-to-face conversation is like, com-
ttunication by mesE media seems infrior.his argued, howwver.that this
munication by mass media seems inferior. It is argued, however, that this
"idtaaf of convarsetion"does nat eorrespond closehy te most actaf con-
"ideal of conversation" does not correspond closely to most actual con-
veraations. h is arqued furthar thgt the nise a the mass mredie is isel
versations. It is argued further that the rise of the mass media is itself
raspan金》le fer the dvefoomen of wn if of c0nveSetion and irrpon-
responsible for the development of an ideal of conversation and is respon-
sibve for rmating ideal eonvers前tions more often realized in praetico.The
sible for making ideal conversations more often realized in practice. The
contribution of the mess mebio to foes-to-1act conversation hss be8n to
contribution of the mass media to face-to-face conversation has been to
make conversation. particuterlty befween nan and women and behween
make conversation, particularly between and
men and between
women
duts and ehihdrer more 吸gaitarian and to erlarge the possiiliy of
adults and children, more egalitarian and to enlarge the possibility of
spantareeus conversafion. k is suggosted, finalty, tha research an the
spontaneous conversation. It is suggested, finally, that research on the
masE media will be improved it i eppraisesthe nature of conversation mpre
mass media will be improved if it appraises the nature of conversation more
reatisticelly.
realistically.

THE IDEAL OF CONVERSATI0N
THE IDEAL OF CONVERSATION
IN THE STUDY OF MASS MEDIA
IN THE STUDY OF MASS MEDIA

MICHAEL SCHUDSON
MICHAEL SCHUDSON
Universty of Chicago
University of Chicago

American social thinkers in the 192Os spoke with great sym-
American social thinkers in the 1920s spoke with great sym-
pathy of the mass media. Dewey(1920:686),Mead(1926:382-
pathy of the mass media. Dewey (1920: 686), Mead (1926: 382-
393),Park[1923:273-289) all wrote of newspapers with con-
393), Park (1923: 273-289) all wrote of newspapers with con-
siderable affection.Social scientists and social philosophers since
siderable affection. Social scientists and social philosophers since
then have praised the mass media or blamed the mass media but
then have praised the mass media or blamed the mass media but
rarely deronstrated aaything we could call affection. They seem
rarely demonstrated anything we could call affection. They seem
to feel that the mass media have not provided new ways to com-
to feel that the mass media have not provided new ways to com-
municate so much as interrupted the old way of face-to-face,
municate so much as interrupted the old way of face-to-face,
interpersonal conversation. It is a stock image in cartoons—the
interpersonal conversation. It is a stock image in cartoons-the
husband at breakfast with his face buried in the newspaper while
husband at breakfast with his face buried in the newspaper while
his wife tries vainly to talk to him.1
his wife tries vainly to talk to him.’

AUTHOR's NOTE∶! would 旅e to thent Paul Hirsch, Susan Noakes and
AUTHOR’S NOTE: I would like to thank Paul Hirsch, Susan Noakes, and
Dsvid Riesman for comments on an earier draft af ithi paper.
David Riesman for comments on an earlier draft of this paper.

COMMKINCATION RESEARCH, Vel.5 NO.3,Juh 1978
1978 Sage Publcationg, Ine

[320]
[320]
Schudson /IDEAL OF CONVERSATION [321]
[321]

The distinction between mass media and face-to-face com-
The distinction between media and face-to-face
mass com-
munication seems to be invidious. For instance, typical lists of the
munication seems to be invidious. For instance, typical lists of the
characteristics of "interpersonal"channels of communication
characteristics of &dquo;interpersonal&dquo; channels of communication
and"mass media"channels emphasize that the"message flow"
and &dquo;mass media&dquo; channels emphasize that the &dquo;message flow&dquo;
in interpersonal channels is two-way, the message flow in the
in interpersonal channels is two-way, the message flow in the
mass media one-way. In interpersonal channets there is a high
mass media one-way. In interpersonal channels there is a high
amotnt of feedback readily available,while in mass media chan-
amount of feedback readily available, while in mass media chan-
nels the amount is low.Given the cultural assumptions of a
nels the amount is low. Given the cultural assumptions of a
democratic society, this contast is necessarily to the disadvan-
democratic society, this contrast is necessarily to the disadvan-
tage of the mass media.Who could approve of ane-way over two-
tage of the mass media. Who could approve of one-way over two-
way message flow? Or low rather than high possibilities for im-
way message flow? Or low rather than high possibilities for im-
mediate feedback?
mediate feedback?
But while it is true that ordinarily me8sages in the mass media
But while it is true that ordinarily messages in the mass media
move in one direction with little opportunity for feedback, it is not
move in one direction with little opportunity for feedback, it is not
.
true that ordinarily messages in face-to-face conversation move
true that ordinarily messages in face-to-face conversation move
in two directions with great opportunity for faedback, There is an
in two directions with great opportunity for feedback. There is an
unspoken sense among students of the mass media that the
unspoken sense among students of the mass media that the
world of face-to-face cammunication is the world of rich and
world of face-to-face communication is the world of rich and
complicated interaction that would be possibte if the cartoon
complicated interaction that would be possible if the cartoon
husband put down his morning paper and talked to his cartoon
husband put down his morning paper and talked to his cartoon
wife.
wife.
But what would that conversation actually be like? As an
But what would that conversation actually be like? As an
example,take the opening scene in Pinter's {1962} play,"A
example, take the opening scene in Pinter’s (1962) play, &dquo;A
Slight Ache."Flora and Edward are at breakfast.As the scene
Slight Ache.&dquo; Flora and Edward are at breakfast. As the scene
opens, Edward, as we might expect, is reading the paper, but
opens, Edward, as we might expect, is reading the paper, but
Flora manages to engage himn in conversation:
Flora manages to engage him in conversation:

Flora: Have you noticed the honeysuckle this morning?
Flora: Have you noticed the honeysuckle this morning?
Edward:The what?.
Edward: The what?
Flora: The honeysuckle.
Flora: The honeysuckle.
Edward: Honeysuckle? Where7
Edward: Honeysuckle? Where?
Flora: By the back gate,Edward.
Flora: By the back gate, Edward.
Edward:ls that honaysuckle?Ithought it was...Convolvulus,o
Edward: Is that honeysuckle? I thought it was ... convolvulus, or
Sornelhing.
something.
Flora; But you know it' horeysuckle.
Flora: But you know it’s honeysuckle.
Edward: 1tell you I thought it was convotvulus.
Edward: I tell you I thought it was convolvulus.
[Pauso.]
[Pause.]
F)ora: h's in wonderful flower.
Flora: It’s in wonderful flower.
Edward:1must jook
Edward: I must look.
Flora; The whcle garden's in flower in this morning.The clematis.
Flora: The whole garden’s in flower in this morning. The clematis.
The convolvulus.Everything.I wa8 out at seven.Is1ood by the
The convolvulus. Everything. I was out at seven. I stood by the
pool.,
pool.
1322] COMMUNICATION RESEARCH /JULY 1978
[322]

Edward; Did you say—that the corolvulus was in fower?
Edward: Did you say-that the convolvulus was in flower?
Flora: Yes.
Flora: Yes.
Edward: But good God, you just denied there wa3 any.
Edward: But good God, you just denied there was any.
Flora:I was taking about the honeysuckle.
Flora: I was talking about the honeysuckle.
Edward: About the what?
Edward: About the what?
Flora [catmly];Edward—you know that shtub outside the tool-
Flora [calmly]: Edward-you know that shrub outside the tool-
shed..
shed
Edward: Yes, yes.
...

Edward: Yes, yes.


Flora: That's convolvulus,
_

Flora: That’s convolvulus.


Edward: That?
Edward: That?
Flora: Yes.
Flora: Yes.
’ ’

Edward:Oh.
Edward: Oh.
[Pau8e.]
[Pause.] .

 thought it was japonica.
I thought it was japonica..
Flora:Oh, good Lord no.
Flora: Oh, good Lord no.
Edward; Pas5 the teapot, please;

Edward: Pass the teapot, please;

And so on, for pages.ls this the communication the mass media
And so on, for pages. Is this the communication the mass media
interfere with? Pinter's dialogue has a touch of the cyicat, even
interfere with? Pinter’s dialogue has a touch of the cynical, even
the sinister,but there is no doubt that we recognize the speech he
the sinister, but there is no doubt that we recognize the speech he
Captures.
captures.
Arother culture,another breakfast. In a Tunisian village.
Another culture, another breakfast. In a Tunisian village,
Nawa's husband Muhammed comes into the room to eat.He says
Nawa’s husband Muhammed comes into the room to eat. He says
to his wife,"May Allah grant you a long life,and may he let us
to his wife, &dquo;May Allah grant you a long life, and may he let us
stay long together,"Nawa and her daughter rephy,"May light
stay long .together.&dquo; Nawa and her daughter reply, &dquo;May light
shine upon your day."Every morning the same words, and few
shine upon your day.&dquo; Every morning the same words, and few
words if any beyond them. The sociologist DuvignBud writes:
words if any beyond them. The sociologist Duvignaud writes:

No one attaches any importance t6 these words, but they must be
No one attaches any importance to these words, but they must be
spoken. There would be a catch in the throat and an uncomfortable
spoken. There would be a catch in the throat and an uncomfortable
feelirg in the whole body if they were not mumbled every morning.
feeling in the whole body if they were not mumbled every morning.
Aeiually Muhammed and Nawa have rarely said a word to each
Actually Muhammed and Nawa have rarely said a word to each
other,since the time when the children were very small and one
other, since the time when the children were very small and one
or the ather was 训. Now,except when they are hara88ed by an
or the other was ill. Now, except when they are harassed by an
unpaid debt, they have rothing to tatk about [1970:1O].
unpaid debt, they have nothing to talk about [1970: 10].

This is common: first, that silence rather than conversation is
This is common: first, that silence rather than conversation is
usual between people, even intimates in afamily,and second,
usual between people, even intimates in a family, and second,
that where silence is broken, it is broken by ritual or stereotypic
that where silence is broken, it is broken by ritual or stereotypic
utterances.It is not only in Tunisian villages that children are
utterances. It is not only in Tunisian villages that children are
Supposed to be seen and nat heard or that women are supposed
supposed to be seen and not heard or that women are supposed
to know their place.Our model of ideal conversation may be that
to know their place. Our model of ideal conversation may be that
of two iovers or of husband and wife over coffee after the kids are
of two lovers or of husband and wife over coffee after the kids are
in bed. But in the Tunisian village, most conversation is segre-
in bed. But in the Tunisian village, most conversation is segre-
Schudson /DEAL OF cONVERSATON [323]
[323]

gated by sex—men taiking to other men in front of the grocer's
gated by sex-mentalking to other in front of the grocer’s
men
shop or women talking to women while they do the laundry. Our
shop or women talking to women while they do the laundry. Our
own urban and corparate illages are different, but not so differ-
own urban and corporate villages are different, but not so differ-
ent as we might like to imagine—at le8st, notbefore the advent of
ent as we might like to imagine-at least, not before the advent of
the mass media,
the mass media.
When we criticize the reality of the mass media, we do so by
When we criticize the reality of the mass media, we do so by
opposing it to an ideal of conversation which we are not incfined
opposing it to an ideal of conversation which we are not inclined
to examine,We are nat really interested in what face-to-face
to examine. We are not really interested in what face-to-face
communication is like; rather,we have deve!oped a notion that
communication is like; rather, we have developed a notion that
all communication shoufd be like a certain model of conversation,
all communication should be like a certain model of conversation,
whether that modei really exists or not. The "conversational
whether that model really exists or not. The &dquo;conversational
ideal"of communication, as I will call it, includes the following
ideal&dquo; of communication, as I will call it, includes the following
characteristics.
~

characteristics.

{1]cortinuous feedback between twp people in a face-to-face setting;
(1) continuous feedback between two people in a face-to-face setting;
{2] multichannel communications;one not only hears the conver-
(2) multichannel communications: one not only hears the conver-
sational partner but 8ees and touches him ox her;
sational partner but sees and touches him or her;
{3)spontaneous utterance: tha content of the conversation is unique
(3) spontaneous utterance: the content of the conversation is unique
arnd created on the spot;
and created on the spot;
(4]the same person ac1s at once as sender and receiver of message8;
(4) the same person acts at once as sender and receiver of messages;
(5)the norms of the conversation are egaliterian; whatever rules of
(5) the norms of the conversation are egalitarian: whatever rules of
speaking (like alternation of spesker8]g0vern one govern the
speaking (like alternation of speakers) govern one govern the
.

Dther.
other.

This ideal is not one concocted by social scientists. Rather,it
This ideal is not one concocted by social scientists. Rather, it
is a widely shared ideal in contemporary American culture which
is a widely shared ideal in contemporary American culture which
social science has uncriticaly adopted. It is by na means an ideal
social science has uncritically adopted. It is by ideal
no means an
of universal significance,The ideal of canversation in conterpo-
of universal significance. The ideal of conversation in contempo-
rary Antigua, for example, does not presume that the utterances
rary Antigua, for example, does not presume that the utterances
of different people in a conversation are or should be oriented
of different people in a conversation are or should be oriented
to one another and shaped as responses to what others have just
to one another and shaped as responses to what others have just
said—"continupUs feedback"is not a criterion of g0od conversa-
said-&dquo;continuous feedback&dquo; is not a criterion of good conversa-
tion. In Antigua, on the contrary, as anthropologist Reisman
tion. In Antigua, on the contrary, as anthropologist Reisman
{1974) suggests, there is"no sense of interruption, or need to fit
(1974) suggests, there is &dquo;no sense of interruption, or need to fit
carefully into an ongoing pattern of conversation."Reisman
carefully into an ongoing pattern of conversation.&dquo; Reisman
{1974:115}concludes that in Antigua"the impulse to speak is not
(1974: 115) concludes that in Antigua &dquo;the impulse to speak is not
cued by the external situation but comes from within the
cued by the external situation but comes from within the
speaker.""Without the"norm of interruption"customary in our
speaker.&dquo; Without the &dquo;norm of interruption&dquo; customary in our
own conversational ideal,it is quite acceptable in Antiguan
own conversational ideal, it is quite acceptable in Antiguan
conversation for several people to speak simutaneously.
conversation for several people to speak simultaneously.
[324] COMMUNICATON RESEARCH/JULY 1978
[324] COMMUNICATON RESEARCH /JtULY 1978
[324]

[The fact that one is not heard does not mean one has to stop.
[The fact that one is not heard does not mean one hes to stop.
[T]he fact that one is not heard does not mean one has to stop.
One can go right on with perhaps one listener, or perhaps none. On
One can go right on with perhape one listener, or pexhAp none. Cn
One can go right on with perhaps one listener, or perhaps none. On
some cccasions, perhaps more serious, or particularly in more
some occasions, perhaps more sarious, or particularly in more
some occasions, perhaps more serious, or particularly in more
forrnal settings as part of an almost ritualized debate batween sets
formal sertings as part of an almost rituelized debate between sets
formal settings as part of an almost ritualized debate between sets
of conventions, 8ormeone wil be told to "have some behevior"or
of conventions, someone will be told to "have some behavior" of
of conventions, someone will be told to &dquo;have some behavior&dquo; or
"let the man speak," In many conversations, however, several
"let the man soeak"ln many conversations, however,several
&dquo;let the man speak.&dquo; In many conversations, however, several
participants already involved may feel that the point they are
participants alreedy inwohved may feel that the point they are
participants already involved may feel that the point they are
making is not receiving sufficient attention and will each of them
making is not receiving sufficjent attention and will each of them
making is not receiving sufficient attention and will each of them
continue speaking,repeating the point they are making—so that
continue speaking, repeating the point they are making—so that
continue speaking, repeating the point they are making-so that
several people are speaking at once [1974:114].
soveral people are speaking at once[1974:114].
several people are speaking at once [1974: 114].

In any society, people try to abide by norms of conversational
In any society, pegple try to abide by norms of conversational
In any society, people try to abide by norms of conversational
practice and will feel disoriented when they are violated. In main-
practice and will feel disoriented when they are violated.in main-
practice and will feel disoriented when they are violated. In main-
stream American culture, when an element of the conversational
5tream American culture, when an element of the conversatioral
stream American culture, when an element of the conversational
ideal described above is missing, people feel uncomfortable. It
ideal described above is missing, people feel uncomfortable. h
ideal described above is missing, people feel uncomfortable. It
can be distressing, for instance, to pass an acquaintance in the
can be distressing, for instance,to pass an acquaintance in the
can be distressing, for instance, to pass an acquaintance in the
street where there is opportunity only for a ritual exchange of
street where there is opportunity only for aritual exchange of
street where there is opportunity only for a ritual exchange of
greetings rather than for a spontaneous conversation. It is equally
greetings rather than for a spontaneous conver容ation. It is equally
greetings rather than for a spontaneous conversation. It is equally
awkward when the same person is not sender and receiver—for
awkward when the same person is not sender and receiver—for
awkward when the same person is not sender and receiver-for
instance, one person wil not stop talking (something that would
instance, one person will not stop talking (something that would
instance, one person will not stop talking (something that would
be taken as normal in Antigua) or else, when one person pauses
be taken as normal in Antigua}or eise,when one person pauses
be taken as normal in Antigua) or else, when one person pauses
for the other person's response, there is no response. Or suppose
for the other person's response, there is no respnse. Or suppose
for the other person’s response, there is no response. Or suppose
a channel of communication has been cut off. Recently I talked to
a channel of communication has been cut off.Recently 1 talked to
a channel of communication has been cut off. Recently I talked to
a man whose face was altogether impassive—everything I said
a man whose face was altogether impassive-everything I said
sunk into it as if it were a black hole. This was most disconcert-
sunk into it as if it were a black hole.This was mo8t digconcert-
sunk into it as if it were a black hole. This was most disconcert-
ing. Or take the familiar case where the rules of speaking do not
ing. Or take the familiar case where the rules of speaking do not
apply equally. When people who are unequal in status talk, there
apply equally.When people who are unequalt in status talk, there
apply equally. When people who are unequal in status talk, there
are special rules—for instance, that the person of higher status
are special rules-for instance, that the person of higher status
should be the one to signal the close of the conversation.In some
should be the one to signal the close of the conversation. In some
should be the one to signal the close of the conversation. In some
cases the person of inferior status, feeling disarmed in conversa-
cases the person of inferior status,feeling disarmed in conversa-
cases the person of inferior status, feeling disarmed in conversa-
tion with superiors, will choose where possible some less inti-
tion with superiors, will cho0se where possible soma less inti-
tion with superiors, will choose where possible some less inti-
mate means of communication. A woman of my acquaintance
mate means of communication. A woman ・of my acquaintance
mate means of communication. A woman of my acquaintance
who does research in libraries in Europe prefers to have a call-
who doe8 reaearch in libraries in Europe prefers to have a call-
who does research in libraries in Europe prefers to have a call-
ing card to announce her appearance to a curator or librarian
ing card to announce her appearance to a curator or librarian
because this puts her on a more equal footing with the official
because this puts her on a more equal footing with the official
because this puts her on a more equal footing with the official
than does her personal arrival in a worid of men.
than does her personal arrival in a workd of men.
than does her personal arrival in a world of men.
The characteristic of "spontaneous utterance" deserves fur-
The characteristic of"spontaneous utterance" deserves fur-
The characteristic of &dquo;spontaneous utterance&dquo; deserves fur-
ther comment. It suggests the expression of authentic or true
ther comment. ht suggests the expression of authentic or true
ther comment. It suggests the expression of authentic or true
feelings. This is a modern view of conversation. If one looks in the
feelings. This is a modern view of conversation.If one looks in the
feelings. This is a modern view of conversation. If one looks in the
card catalog under "conversation," what one firids are eightenth
card catalog under"conversation,"what one firds are eighteenth
card catalog under &dquo;conversation,&dquo; whatone finds eighteenth
are
century guides to the "art of conversation" which had nothing
century guides to the"art of conversation" which had nothing
century guides to the &dquo;art of conversation&dquo; which had nothing
at all to do with authenticity. Conversation was a social grace for
at all to do with authenticity.Conversation was a social grace for
at all to do with authenticity. Conversation was social grace for
a
Sehudson / IDEAL OF CONVESATON [325]
[325]

people of leisure, like playing the piano, and was cultivated as a
people of leisure, like playing the piano, and was cultivated as a
highly artificial pursuit {see Sennet,1977:82. We stil recog-
highly artificial pursuit (see Sennett, 1977: 82). We still recog-
nize that conversation can be artful or even artificial in the notion
nize that conversation can be artful or even artificial in the notion
of a"conversation piece"or in the gruding recognition of some
of a &dquo;conversation piece&dquo; or in the gruding recognition of some
people who are especiatly skilled at cocktail-party talk,
people who are especially skilled at cocktail-party talk.
Sometimes the ideal of conversation is violated and it does not
Sometimes the ideal of conversation is violated and it does not
disturb us. It is as if we have some tacit understanding that talk
disturb us. It is as if we have some tacit understanding that talk
comes in different forms,each with their own rules.In the ideal
comes in different forms, each with their own rules. In the ideal
situation, conversation is a constantly evolving social contract
situation, conversation is a constantly evolving social contract
determined by the two parties and the two parties alone. But in
determined by the two parties and the two parties alone. But in
fact, there are ordinarily many constraints which direct or almast
fact, there are ordinarily many constraints which direct or almost
determine the outcome, reducing the possibility of spontanernous
determine the outcome, reducing the possibility of spontanenous
utterance.Talk with the store clerk or the bank teMler is ordinarily
utterance. Talk with the store clerk or the bank teller is ordinarily
stereotypic--indeed, bank tellers can be replaced by computers,
stereotypic-indeed, bank tellers can be replaced by computers,
candy store owners by vending machines, corner .newsstand
candy store owners by vending machines, corner .newsstand
operators by newsboxes,and most interaction with sales people
operators by newsboxes, and most interaction with sales people
by self-service stores,When we do talk to a sales person, the
by self-service stores. When we do talk to a sales person, the
stereotypic character of the talk may not disturb us—indeed, too
stereotypic character of the talk may not disturb us-indeed, too
much spontaneity might. The dental hygienist will want to talk to
much spontaneity might. The dental hygienist will want to talk to
the patient in the chair to establish rapport, but if this leads the
the patient in the chair to establish rapport, but if this leads the
two to get into a conversation-note how the ideal is presumed in
two to get into a conversation-note how the ideal is presumed in
that phrase—the hygienist will withdraw to get on with the work.
that phrase-the hygienist will withdraw to get on with the work.
We have, then, an ideal of what is the best kind of communica-
We have, then, an ideal of what is the best kind of communica-
tion.We may not want to give it up, but we should be aware that it
tion. We may not want to give it up, but we should be aware that it
is an ideal, one that most communication, including most con-
is an ideal, one that most communication, including most con-
versation, rarely achieves. It is notable that we do not have a
versation, rarely achieves. It is notable that we do not have a
separate ideal of what good mass communication might be. Not
separate ideal of what good mass communication might be. Not
that we do not have good examples of it: Shakespeare in theater,
that we do not have good examples of it: Shakespeare in theater,
Tostoy in the novel, Bergman in fim. There are outstanding in-
Tolstoy in the novel, Bergman in film. There are outstanding in-
stances of newspaper correspondence. Television has had out-
stances of newspaper correspondence. Television has had out-
standing moments, though there is not yet consensus on what
standing moments, though there is not yet consensus on what
these have been.But implicit in studies of the mass media in the
these have been. But implicit in studies of the mass media in the
social sciences is the old ideal of perfect communication in the
social sciences is the old ideal of perfect communication in the
face-to-face conversation, By this standard,the mass media are
face-to-face conversation. By this standard, the mass media are
judged and found wanting.
judged and found wanting.
Qne might conclude that for most decert human purposes the
One might conclude that for most decent human purposes the
mass media are inferior to conversation, but that is not something
mass media are inferior to conversation, but that is not something
to assume from the outset. Indeed, I would go further to suggest
to assume from the outset. Indeed, I would go further to suggest
that the conversational ideal we now subscribe to has developed
that the conversational ideal we nowsubscribe to has developed
only in a worid shaped by the mass media.Both the ideaf of con-
only in a world shaped by the mass media. Both the ideal of con-
326] COMMUNICATION RESEARCH /JULY 1978
[326]

versatior,and its occasional realization,are in part B conse-
versation, and its occasional realization, are in part a conse-
quence of mass mnedia.

quence of mass media.


This is so in at least two respects. First, the mass media have
This is so in at least two respects. First, the mass media have
contributed to making the"egalitarian"criterion of ideal com-
contributed to making the &dquo;egalitarian&dquo; criterion of ideal com-
munication mnore prominent and more possibte to realize.In the
munication more prominent and more possible to realize. In the
United States in the late nineteenth century, for instance,not only
United States in the late nineteenth century, for instance, not only
were women agitating for formal access to the political system
were women agitating for formal access to the political system
through suffrage, but they were achieving a certain amount of
through suffrage, but they were achieving a certain amount of
political competence through newspaper reading.Newspapers,
political competence through newspaper reading. Newspapers,
before the 1830a, were generally read anly by males at offices or
before the 1830s, were generally read only by males at offices or
clubs. Papers were more widely available thereafter. The major
clubs. Papers were more widely available thereafter. The major
increase in circulation after 1880,the heyday of newspaper
increase in circulation after 1880, the heyday of newspaper
growth, came in evening papers the man read at home rather
growth, came in evening papers the man read at home rather
than on the way to work or at work—and so his wife read too.7
than on the way to work or at work-and so his wife read too.2
Television, even more than the evaning paper, has made political
Television, even more than the evening paper, has made political
and cultural information available to large numbers of women as
and cultural information available to large numbers of women as
never before. It seems reasonable to assume that this has changed
never before. It seems reasonable to assume that this has changed
the possibilities for conversation betvween men and women
the possibilities for conversation between men and women
and, for that matter,between women and children. Sociologist
and, for that matter, between women and children. Sociologist
wanska observed in her study of arural community in Washing-
lwanska observed in her study of a rural community in Washing-
ton in the early 1950s that women had more time for television
ton in the early 1950s that women had more time for television
than men and,thanks to the tube,gained more knowledge of the
than men and, thanks to the tube, gained more knowledge of the
outside world than their husbands. The result was significart:"It
outside world than their husbands. The result was significant: &dquo;it
is more likely today that a child wil go to the mother than to the
is more likely today that a child will go to the mother than to the
father to ask about foreign countries or about the United Nations"
father to ask about foreign countries or about the United Nations&dquo;
(wanska,1958: 29].
(Iwanska, 1958: 29).
The mass media helped democratize conversation between the
The mass media helped democratize conversation between the
sexes. It has democratized conversation between different age
sexes. It has democratized conversation between different age
groups,as well.Fiim and television have made a common culture
groups, as well. Film and television have made a common culture
available to children who partake of it as equals with adults.
available to children who partake of it as equals with adults.
Indeed, children are often welt ahead of adults in their knowledge
Indeed, children are often well ahead of adults in their knowledge
of the culture of the mass media, This surely has hastened the
of the culture of the mass media. This surely has hastened the
demise of the rule that children are to be seen and not heard.
demise of the rule that children are to be seen and not heard.
Children are simply mare competent than they once were to par-
Children are simply more competent than they once were to par-
ticipate in many of the conversations adults enjoy.3
ticipate in many of the conversations adults enjoy.3
The mass media have had a second effect in making the con-
The mass media have had a second effect in making the con-
versationa! ideal more frequently realizable. They have made
versational ideal more frequently realizable. They have made
spontaneous utterance more po8sible.Of course, we are familiar
spontaneous utterance more possible. Of course, we are familiar
with the ways in which one can parrot a book or filrm or television
with the ways in which one can parrot a book or film or television
in conversation.But, even then, the mass media bring into con-
in conversation. But, even then, the mass media bring into con-
Schudson /IDEAL OF CONVERSATION [327
[327]

versation a third party,a topic of discourse outside the immediacy
versation a third party, a topic of discourse outside the immediacy
of whet-I-did-today-what-did-you-do・today.This expands the
of what-I-did-today-what-did-you-do-today. This expands the
grammatical possibilities of discourse—not just the first and
grammatical possibilities of discourse-not just the first and
second person but the third person is involved, Thi8 adds to the
second person but the third person is involved. This adds to the
complexity,the thickneas of conversation,
complexity, the thickness of conversation.
But couldn't the"third person"be, in fact,a third person?7 A
But couldn’t the &dquo;third person&dquo; be, in fact, a third person? A
real human being rather than a ma8s media message? Certainly.
real human being rather than a mass media message? Certainly.
Nevertheless.the mas media have an advantage here.If one
Nevertheless, the mass media have an advantage here. If one
person in the conversation recounts something 8 third person did
person in the conversation recounts something a third person did
or gaid, the burden of putting the third pefson'8 words or deeds
or said, the burden of putting the third person’s words or deeds
into some formt, a story which can be communicated, is still on
into some form, a story which can be communicated, is still on
the first person,However,if that person recounis something
the first person. However, if that person recounts something
heard or seen or read in the mass media,it is more likely that the
heard or seen or read in the mass media, it is more likely that the
thing recounted will already have a form of its own.Of course,
thing recounted will already have a form of its Of course,
own.
the message from the mass media will also be selecively per-
the message from the mass media will also be selectively per-
ceived and retold in the convergationalist'a frame of reference,
ceived and retold in the conversationalist’s frame of reference,
but it will be relatively more resistant to distortion.The ma8s
but it will be relatively more resistant to distortion. The mass
media message has a better chance of being a genuinely"third
.

media message has a better chance of being a genuinely &dquo;third


person" in the conversafion than an actual third person.
person&dquo; in the conversation than an actual third person.
This will not always be true,Research on the"two-step fow"
This will not always be true. Research on the &dquo;two-step flow&dquo;
of communication 8uggests that mass media messages have
of communication suggests that mass media messages have
most power in influencing attitudes when they are mediated by a
most power in influencing attitudes when they are mediated by a
person. Even that if is the case,there may still be another kind
person. Even that if is the case, there may still be another kind
of'two-8tep"in which another person's message gains power
of &dquo;two-step&dquo; in which another person’s message gains power
only when mediated or legitimated by the mass media. For in-
only when mediated or legitimated by the mass media. For in-
¥tance,a neighbor may tel us that he has traced his ancesfry.
stance, a neighbor may tell us that he has traced his ancestry.
But will that mesgage register? Wi we take it seriously as a com-
But will that message register? Will we take it seriously as a com-
munication to us rather than as an additional quirky item about
munication to us rather than as an additional quirky item about
the neighbor? Very likely not一unless,of course, we havewatched
the neighbor? Very likely not-unless, of course, we have watched
or talked about the television series,"Roots.,"Then the neighbor'g
or talked about the television series, &dquo;Roots.&dquo; Then the neighbor’s
quirk gains a context,a salience,a place in awider realm of cul-
quirk gains a context, a salience, a place in a wider realm of cul-
ture and meaning. We make meaning collectively, but we often
ture and meaning. We make meaning collectively, but we often
do not know "what to make of"the information eround ua until it
do not know &dquo;what to make of&dquo; the information around us until it
has a setting. The ma88 media, I think. will Bs often provide the
has a setting. The mass media, I think, will as often provide the
etting for a message from an 8acquaintance as the acquaintance
setting for a message from an acquaintance as the acquaintance
.

will offer an authoritative interpretation for a messege from the
will offer an authoritative interpretation for a message from the
rmass media
mass media.
None of this is meent to diminish the supreme importance of
None of this is meant to diminish the supreme importance of
talk in human life.Conversetion holds a primary place in our lives
talk in human’ life. Conversation holds a primary place in our lives
and ur sense of reality which neither novels nor newspapers nor
and our sense of reality which neither novels nor newspapers nor
[328] COMMUNICATION RE8EARCH/ JULY 1978
[328]

film nor telavision can match. Dewey (1948:2) wrote, with hant-
film nor television can match. Dewey (1948: 2) wrote, with hunt-
ing and gathering 8ocietie8 in mind,"the conscious and truly
ing and gathering societies in mind, &dquo;the conscious and truly
human experience of the chase comes wnen it is talked over and
human experience of the chase comes when it is talked over and
re-enacted by the camp fire."One can beeve this and sill admit
re-enacted by the camp fire.&dquo; One can believe this and still admit
that the chase will often have been uneventful and the talk about
that the chase will often have been uneventful and the talk about
it trivial.Even around the camp fire, talk is ttkely to be of convol-
it trivial. Even around the camp fire, talk is likely to be of convol-
vulu3 and honeysuckle,4
vulus and honeysuckle.4
There is nothing wrong with that. But to recognize it should
There is nothing wrong with that. But to recognize it should
make u8 rnore realistic in what we expect from the mass media.
make us more realistic in what we expect from the mass media.
We should be more aware of the irony in condemning the mass
We should be more aware of the irony in condemning the mass
media for failing to live up to a standard, the conversational ideal,
media for failing to live up to a standard, the conversational ideal,
which the ma8s media have helped make conceiveble.
which the mass media have helped make conceivable..

NOTE8
~

.. NOTES

.Why it i etway the hu实and and so rarety the wife whe readtthe morning
1. Why it is always the husband and so rarely the wife who reads the morning
paper in tis atock 2cene? The differant pa献断rna of both convewation and orien-
paper in this stock scene? The different patterns of both conversation and orien-
ttion to the m温ss rdks of mnen nd wrman tof 鱼 topie of greatimportarce.I
tation to the mass media of men and women is of a topic of great importance.I
think. t deserve more systematic attention. On convoraation see Koenan {1974:
think. It deserves more systematic attention. On conversation see Keenan (1974:
125-143.
125-143).
2.On the rise of evening papers,客ee Emary(1972∶292; on the orientation of
2. On the rise of evening papers, see Emery (1972: 292); on the orientation of
nevvapap2r靠 in the 1880 to a 行emale readership, 8D Juargens{1966) and
newspapers in the 1880s to a female readership, see Juergens (1966) and
Schudxon (1978).
Schudson (1978).
3.The mass meda also can damocratize social relatlons by subasttuting for
3. The mass media also democratize social relations by substituting for
can
conversation botwoon peopte unequal In S1能tug.For insanc,ane gtuby indicae
conversation between people unequal in status. For instance, one study indicates
that collepe-eduGatd peKent rehy mor・ on drect pergoNat contect with achoo}
that college-educated parents rely more on direct personal contact with school
afieials to learn about local schoot, whilo prran诱 without colloge education
officials to learn about local schools, while parents without college education
prefer newspapers as  source of information The stuoy holda that"the mess
prefer newspapers of information. The study holds that "the
as a source mass
medim goem to be relativoly more useful chunnal; for that large sogment of the
media seem to be relatively useful channels for that large segment of the
more
citizwnry that is less educated than are school personnel. One night even describe
citizenry that is less educated than are school personnel. One might even describe
the moda as the lea弊'elitr'of the sveral potential sourcesof pubic information
the media as the least ’elitist’ of the several potential sources of public information
about schools"[Chaffoo,1967:732),
about schools" (Chaffee, 1967: 732).
4.Narshall,far innanca, repora thst the KDng buahmen are an especialy
4. Marshall, for instance, reports that the Kung bushmen are an especially
loquacious people一paricularthy the neie. They talk frequenty,0enerelly abut
loquacious people—particularly the males. They talk frequently, generally about
food. They dio not genarally ¥paek opanly of gaxual mattars or of the gods.Theyd
food. They do not generally speak openly of sexual of the gods. They do
not tell mytha. They do pot invent siorives:'They said they huad no intarest in hearlng
matters or
not tell myths. They do notinvent stories: "They said they had
no interest in hearing
thing3th血L 8re not trueand wonderwhy anybody hs"(Merahall,1968∶179-184.
things that are not true and wonder why anybody has" (Marshall, 1968: 179-184).
Schud3on / IDEAL OF CONVERSATION [328]
[329]

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Micheof Schvdson is Agsiswrt Prafmssor of soiofogy 部 the Univrsity af
Michael Schudson is Assistant Professor of sociology at the University of
ChieogD. He has written on education. the profassions, and the mass
Chicago. He has written education, the professions, and the mass
on
medie, snd is author of the forthsorning buak. Discovering the Newa: A
media, and is author of the forthcoming book, Discovering the News: A
Socia1 Htetory of American Journism [Beie Bookx, 1978A
Social History of American Journalism (Basic Books, 1978).

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