04 September.

Time-code Speaker Transcription Translated in English Notes

0:00:01 You know that it will be published with the

exhibition that will be held next February, you know
we have delved into her life and have questions and
we wanted to just be sure that her voice can also be
heard in fifty years, in a hundred years-time, and
inspire young women and young artists alike. That’s
why we are here, you know that we have a
conversation with her and be able to have a book
come out of this; so you know, we send her a great
big thanks from the three of us and whenever she is
ready we can start asking questions.
0:00:39 Thomas Girst Phela abantu bayathokoza kakhulu kuthi bavumele People are very grateful that you allowed
benze lapha, bazokwenza bafunukukwenza nibe them to do this; they will do it gladly, not just
bafunukukwenza nje ngokuthi bafundile kakhulu kulu because they learned a lot before, but also
ngayo mbele ngako ehe nokuningi nje ubuyincwadi because they have a lot of respect for you
efane bayibhalwe nawe sayifaka into ngako wonke and many ideas in your mind. Everything in
nemimcabanga wakho yonke izinto engondweni lakho your heart, they will follow and the principles
kuye izakhombela la nezimishi le ubuyiso kozabase Cape of your leadership. They will go to Cape Town
Town la ne BM babakayiletha ngoko mbere kwayo and bring it forward; they will thank you very
bayiboleke abantu bayoyithenga bazokuthi ngambere much for allowing them to be here. When
kwako ebathi bayathokoza kakhulu ukuthi ubavumele they say it, they are proud of it, and when
ukuthi babe la bathi bathoma ke babuzeka zakhona they are asked about it, they will gladly
ufunukubuza answer with what they have learned.

0:01:29 Joana Ayi zathokoza, ngizekuthini ke mara indaba ungazasi ayi No, they are grateful. What should I say now?
ngathokoza ngokuza kwa la ngimphasela mphasela The matter you don't know, I will tell you. I
thokoza won't be grateful now for coming here to
greet you, I will be grateful later when I
explain the matter to you."
00:01:50 Thank you. As always, you wanna start?

As I said; we are very delighted that we are here. It’s a

great honor to meet you and do this conversation. The
three of us prepared questions, and as it’s for a book;
you know we can just freely talk, it doesn’t have to be
linear, we can just edit it afterwards and work on it until
everybody is happy with it. And I thought maybe it's
always good, as Bayesian said, to begin with the
beginning. And maybe if you could tell us a little bit
about how it all began, because you started very, very
early, I read in many interviews, that you were taught
actually the art of the design and house painting, not
only from your mother, but also from your grandmother.
So, it would be great to hear about these beginnings and
what you learned from your grandmother and your
mother, how this tradition was transmitted and how you
then started your own work.

0:02:58 Esther Mahlangu Bafuna ukukwazi ukuthi wathoma njani ukwaloku ngoba
laba funde khona ngokuthi umma wakufundisa no gogo
wakufundisa nabanye ukuthi wasuka njani
They want to know how you started this,
because those who learned there, your
mother taught you, and your grandmother
taught you, and others, want to know how
you began.

0:03:16 Joana Mma ka Mbela, kanti u mma ka Mbela ngawuphi, Mother of Mbela, where is the mother of
uyesahlamba, nganje.Awu wasuka njani Mbela from? She is humble, indeed. How did
she start?

0:03:30 Thomas Girst Wathoma njani wasikima nje wagwala ngobani How did you start? Did you just decide, or did Agrees with the
abakuthatha bakubeka ngakuthi ugwala someone take you and put you there, saying, speaker
Carry this? comments.

0:03:38 Joana Angithi thina sasidlala namandla njani njani , dlale Didn't we play with strength, like this, play
mandla dlani uyachama khona lapha kwenze njani with strength, show off there, how did it
okwenza nje ngoba ubona kuthi lapha ngisekwe nje happen, what did you do, because you see,
 kwakohomaKhoba bafundisa ube no gogo wakho yabona
unawu unehloko thakatha uyatyhatha uyayenza into
leyo, ake ngesiba hayi nge pencil ngesibali lenkunku
00:04:12 Thomas Grist Yeah. She said that when they were you know little girls
like little girls always like you know working and
watching their parents and imitating the parents. So
when the parents were then busy the mother kind of
painting, they were also trying to do their own. And then
it is in that spot that they identified those that have got, ,
enough talent to do it and then taken into a higher level.
0:04:46 That's great. I was curious to find out about how these
colors were naturally, um, and organically produced, in
the belly. So, you know, these are not, commercial
colours. These are colours that were produced locally.
Maybe if you could say something about that.
0:05:12 Thomas Girst So Ura lo ubuye Nigeria uthi yena ke ufunukukwazi
ukuthi imbala le enigwala ngayo kade nikera kuphi?
Imbala? Yah yonke imibala le isarulani njani kuthi
nikeraphi njani
0:05:36 Joana Angithi ugwala loku njenge amabala kwathi karolayini
inzima iyoyenza njani , Sasithole emlanjeni ehe imgothi
ibe emgothi nembe khona nithole hlukene nithathe nize
ekhaya faka umlombe phakathi nibe gangayothe
umlonge
where I was taken, it was just too difficult.
Khoba, they taught you, and your
grandmother saw it. You have a skill, you're
skillful, you can do that thing, let it be with a
brush, not just with a pencil, with the ink of
the teacher."
So, Ura, when you returned to Nigeria, did
you say that you wanted to be able to know
the color you used to carry long ago? The
color? Yes, all the colors, how do they appear,
where did you get them, how did you use
them?
It seems that carrying things, like colors, is
challenging, much like how a heavy Carolina
fabric would be. We found something by the
water—perhaps a stick or a branch—and
noticed a difference when you obtained it.
Then, bring it home and place a figurine
inside, in between, and discuss it
00:06:02 Thomas Girst Yeah. So, she said these words or these colours that we
got from the rivers where we actually dig. They were
very rich colours that were there. Then they would take
these colours and when they get home, they're going to
mix them with a, you know, cow dung.

0:06:19 Esther Mahlangu Nafaka umlongo, nibenzani ne umlongo? You put the figurine, what do you do with the
figurine?

0:06:23 Joana Yabamba kuthi izulu kunakho kuthi zungasehulukwe It's playing up there in the sky where it
cannot be reached

00:06:25 Thomas Girst So the role of the cow dung is to hold the paint so tightly
that even when it rains heavily, the chances of it washing
out away are minimized. So in other words, it's earth
colours that started it rather than other colours.

00:06:47 So, these colours were always meant to be outdoors, to

be used for houses. For the facades of houses for
outdoors.

00:06:56 Yes. Yeah. What? You see is all around.

0:07:00 Esther Mahlangu Uthi imbala le kuithi k imbala le ke liyadaluleka kuthi You say our color is fading, but is this color
izogwala uzokulisa abalubulle na kuthi iyabiuyaphi that used to carry so dazzling? Where will it
ngoba, emalnjeni, go, will it shine for beautiful people, and
where will it be lost because, by the water...

0:07:13 Joana Emlanjeni nenzima zokuthatha umlambo nayo leyo
emhlophe nithatha kumlambo mhlophe angithi yonke
into ibe umlambo nakhon igijime inemva kunomgothi
lapha khona lapho
By the water and the challenges of taking
from the river, you also take from the white
river. Isn't it so that everything becomes a
river and that there is also a stick with its end
in the water there, where it ends

00:07:27 Thomas Girst She said that different colours, kind of white, whatever
else it is, and they knew the areas around the river
 where to get them and then, you know, dig them and
also the mixing of the different colours together effect
that they want.

00:07:46 I know she spoke about acrylic paint right when when
she made a switch to also use acrylic colours that
broadened her palette and use of of colours and
composition. Can she talk about when that happened
and probably why?

0:08:02 Esther Mahlangu Kuse kuthi bafunukwazi kuthi nawotshiya ke mbala le
lesindu thatha ke bathwa e akrilin, ukwaba njani usuka
lapho bese usungene kuthi ke isigaba sokulekekisa lapha
imibala ekenjwa
It's like they want to be able to leave the
color that you leave behind, then take it and
apply it on the acrylic. How does it happen,
starting from where, and then entering into
the part of creating the colors that are used
there?

0:08:23 Joana Uthi kwaba njani, wau wa kwaba njani kuzoba njani
kumayela nje nibeleka kwenzima, nibeleka ngesarulani,
ngibeleka ngemhlophe, imakhalawayo ke ngamvanga
lomlongwe phethe niyagwala ke ngayo ngithathe
ngifakele, iyakhonas kuthi ifaka kuthi khona uyabona
How was it, how is it going to be, it's just like
you're walking, you walk with difficulty, you
walk with colors, you walk with white. As for
the stick, I heard it's a valuable stick, you
carry it, and you put it on, you see it go in,
there you go.

00:08:55 So she's just saying that all of these colours that

are there that are actually being used even if they
are caught from the river, but they reside inside the
centre of a memory and how they are to be
deployed.
0:09:14 Esther Mahlangu So ufunukwazi ukthi usuke njani ebaleni le nikeriya kuphi So, do you want to explain how you started
ke emlanjeni sobe belekiza ke amaphindi lawa thola with this carrying, where did you pick it up by
umabodleleni umathombi, wathoma nini ukubelekiza the water, then refine it into the bottle and
the figurine? When did you start refining it?
0:09:33 Joana Ah ngezengasho kuthi ngathoma nini ngebelekiza izinto
nje sengazi kuthi ngibelekeza ngazo kwanga lomlongwe
zanjani kade ka ngazo , ngenze ngathi ngazo zathoma
hlabangithe ethile,
Oh, I didn't explain when I started refining
things. I just know that I've been carrying
them for a long time, and I do it as if I have
been doing it forever. I do it like I have been
carrying various things for a very long time.

00:09:51 She says she doesn't quite remember exactly when the
transition went, on. But what is it? Is that the colours
linked to each other? So time frames are another matter.

00:10:08 Now in terms of colours, because we are with the

question of, you know, the colours, I wanted to ask if,
um, within the palette, you know, of all the different
colours you use initially as you described, these very
organic colours and then the acrylic colours, if you have
a favourite colour. And the poet and artist once told me
that red is her favourite colour because she said red
always wins. So, I wanted to ask if you have a favourite
colour.

0:10:43 Esther Mahlangu Imbala eningi angithi yiyophi umbala othanda kakhulu? Among many colors, which one is your
favorite color?

0:10:47 Joana Awo ngithanda yonke ngoba iyezwana angithi, I love all of them because each one is unique,
ioyezwana mizmba, beka lo uyazi ungahlanga loko has its own charm, just like you appreciate
uyazwana kuble . diversity in beauty.

0:11:00 Thomas Girst Ayikho khona othama khona kuthi ayui nako yona engi.
Hawu sengitho kuthi, ngazi nzima zonke, uma ngiyenzi
imali leya ngifaka i-colour leya ngifaka ibe ne colour le
ziyazwana
There's no specific color that I dislike; each
has its own beauty. Well, my thought is that, I
appreciate all colors; when I make money, I
add a different color, making it have various
colors.

00:11:14 Yeah. So all what he's talking about is that there are no
favourite kind of colours. The more emphasis on the
harmonies of colours and of obviously the melodies that
 come from the side. So all the colours are related.

00:11:33 Talking about melodies and harmony and colours it

makes. When you see mama's work, you think of music.
Do you think of something musical and lyrical and
repetitive about it that is very iconic as well. Is there a
collaboration between music and the work of painting.

00:12:00 That’s a good question. Cool.

0:12:05 J Thomas Girst Uthi azona umbere kwako lo uzwa njena intsingwi You say it will have a different appearance,
emnandi ngako ngathi bacula nje, imbala akho le and you hear it like a sweet melody, as if they
ikhuluma njenge khada, ikhuluma nakho ngakonke , are playing, your color speaks like a song, it
uthini ngalokho? speaks altogether; what do you say about
that?

Also in the palette, there's a rich musical choral history. I

know that that's a big thing as well.

0:12:31 Thomas Girst Uthi umculo lo iyenza njani kuwe, ungena njani lapho
uphuma njani. Lapho khona ngambiza , ngase kwazi
kuthi nangibekelela into leyeya ngibeka ngaleyazi
izwana, beka naleya yazi azizwani naleya anizwana phela
nje , abanye babona ke ngokuthi izimu unjani
You say, how does this music affect you, how
does it enter when you come out. When
there, I call, and somehow, I don't know if I
put something on it, I put it with this song,
put it with that one, they don't match with
each other, some see it as if it's spiritual, how
is it?

00:12:55 That's all what matters is the colours you put in one
colour. You put in another one. Uh. They quarrel. So it's
not interested in the quarrels. It must then begin to get
the colours that kind of harmonise, you know, with the,
you know, each other. Maybe that's a way in which, uh,
she responds to the issue of visual music.

00”13”19 Beautiful. Having read many interviews, we know how

passionate Esther is about her art, and we know how she
 feels about being her art and exuding her own art. She's
also passionate about teaching, which is an important
aspect of her work and how she passes it on the way
that it was passed on to her. My question is, if she met
her ten-year-old self, when she was ten years old, she
started painting. What would she tell that little girl that
is herself now that she's 87 years old?
0:14:00 Esther Mahlangu Kuthi loko asila eh ufude belikhulu ngomtwana egwala
ngoko baningi abantu bangabalilekho , ingaya kuthi
ithaka ngani kuthi ingane egoloko uyimpilo lakho, nhlale
nhlizini yakho , njengoba njke una 87 uma ungabona
umntwana oneminyaka oyi 10 ethi uthuni njengayo
kuthwa njengokokwenzayo , yini ungabuyi encono
ungabeke lakho uma ubusemncane . Ah mna asiki
ngifusana hwe, uthi uma ngikungaka . Yah ukhuluma
ngako kuthi ma unabantwana abancane bathoma
ukwenza mbere golo okwangawo, uzwani wena?
Ukunakelela nhiziyo nako , Kumnandi njani ka?
Kumnandi kumnandi ngithi ba bazokukhamba lapha
ukhambe khona
00:15:01 Yeah, she says when she looks at them, she says,
it's such a very, very beautiful thing. Here are the
people that are going to walk behind my own
footsteps.
When someone dies at a young age, it is a big
loss, especially when it's a child who was
loved by many people. It's difficult to imagine
the pain of losing a child, as they are the
essence of your life. Cherish your family. As
you mentioned, being 87 years old, you might
see a child around the age of 10 and wonder
what their life would be like. What advice
would you give to them, as it's said to be
according to what you have experienced?
How would you guide them to live a better
life when they are young? Ah, I can't fully
understand, but you say when you look
back... yes, you talk about how if you have
small children, they should progress beyond
what you have achieved. Do you understand
yourself? How does it feel in your heart? Is it
good? Very good. I think they will appreciate
it when you walk there.
0:15:20 Joana Bahlakaniphile aba they are smart

00:15:21 That's such a beautiful answer. It's very moving. Yeah,

yeah. Very beautiful. Now, one thing which was also
interesting, reading interviews with you, is that, you
know, in the 80s, you actually worked in a museum. You
worked at the Abello Museum. And that was just before
I then saw you for the first time, because I was at the
opening of Magiciens de la Terre. I was a student then,
and I went to Paris. I was invited by Jemmy Martin to
this opening and saw there your extraordinary work for
the first time. But before that happened, you actually
worked in a museum. So, I wanted to know a little bit
more about your work at the museum, and memories of
that and how important that was.

0:16:09 Thomas Girst Se bafunukwazi ngokuTshabele ngokuthi iTshabele They want to understand by observing how
yindawo yenjani, yiyathoma kunjani kade be, ITshabelo iTshabele used to be, how it has changed
iza, iza over time, the change is happening, it is
happening.

0:16:22 Joana Oh aye Tshabelo, angithi, ngisholo, ngisholoko ngayo Oh, AyeTshabelo, isn't it so, I speak, I speak as
waye Tshabelo, tshwaya, uzazikhulumelela yena yabona it was, AyeTshabelo, say, will you convey my
kuyi yini. message to him, you see, what is it?

00:16:37 Yeah. So I was volunteering there, as it was where I live.

She knows her name. She'll do it herself.

00:16:48 Joanna and Esther's sister. Right?

They were the three artists there?

00:16:52 As I said, she'll tell us how they are related.

0:17:00 Esther Mahlangu Bese swelelika naye itshabelo hawu, iuswelelika nawe , Then, you stay in Tshabelo, oh, it's
iswelelika ngayo sonke lapha , lotho, thoko baya lutho interesting, you also stay there, everyone
kuthisa yena bayabuphetshe, iyo ngathokoza , nje uyazi stays there, this thing, thank you, they are
 mema ke lengathi ukhulume nje ngabele kanjani eh,
Tshabelo, ungayenza njani lana kade, lalala
usukhumbuze , Yah nosawuyi Tshabelo kwenza ikuwela
nomuNguni bazothatha umhhabo laba , nabathatha
umhhaba laba komkhaba bonke ,mina ngiyezi Jamaica,
nibafika ngikwamile ohhaba bathi mkhango kweyela
siTshabelo kuthi sokwenza aba sokumuleka sokuthi
lomagamasakwela ke,safike eTshabelo , safike eTshabelo
samangala basakuzi kwakhiwe , ehe usakhiwa
soklukana , ehe ngafika lapha bathi ngasihlaba indlu
kuyenzindlu sebekelile sasizwa ke ngahlaba nje , inhlaba
sengokuyoko , safika khona sase lapho khona , ingastethi
sidla ke , sasuka ke basinike imphende, imphende
sagwala ke ngobugwala , Sijabulela kakhulu
00:18:39 She said that they grew up in a village and then realised
that she was being taken away with somebody, and they
sent a message to her that there's a move towards
butchery. And she asked, what's happening there? They
said, no, there's work, so we are going to work there. So,
when they went in there, they saw the museum was
already, you know, built, but there were no colours.
They were still kind of plastering with, you know, mud.
And then after a while they brought in now the colours
and said to them, here are the colours, here is the wall.
This is your challenge. Do it.
0: 19:25 Thomas Girst So banikhumbisana lapha ke, nenza nika funi gwala le?
Yah ugwala ngokukwanyaka safunda sisebancane
sisekhaya lapho sisebancane sabonbiswa nabo gogpo,
Sakha amandlwane njengoba umkhayeba sasishiyindlu
sisebesakha amandlwa kusasike ugogo yagwala lapha
umama uyagwala lapha hlabe lapha laka hweba isantsha
kwake kululeka kwengane cuzu uzogwala uyaxalankala
doing something to him, they are making him
cry, and he is grateful, just as you know how,
Tshabelo, what can you do here, for a long
time, sleeping, you remember, yes, and you
say Tshabelo will be blessed, and those who
receive blessings will take gifts, and those
who take gifts will take all the blessings, as for
me, I'm going to Jamaica, they said the ship is
sailing to Tshabelo to make a name for
myself, we arrived in Tshabelo, we arrived in
Tshabelo when the sun was setting, yes, we
were given a home, a home was built for us,
yes, we arrived there, and when we got
there, they said we were given a house, we
just laughed, it's wonderful
So, we are united here, doing what, giving or
not giving? Yes, we are carrying on with our
lives, learning when we are little, at home
when we are little, we are also teased by the
elderly. We build small huts, just as the house
was left, we build small huts, gogo
(grandmother) is also building here, mom is
 uyagwala iuyagwala uyagwala dot into le liyangena ,
Uyazi ifuna , izufa uthuma into ioyothathi ibeg le sarulani
nimehlabathi sise nehlabathi ngaze nemihlabthi
luyalwekele sebabona isarulani isuyini naso sebe nayo
khona , Ikhona sarulani isiyiskhama , Doti wenzani
isarulani sikuphi? Kodwa ake basilethe ke
building here, digging, sweeping, and cleaning
the yard is easy for the children. You carry on,
you talk and carry on, you carry on, dot, this
thing enters, you know it wants, it is
powerful, it sends something, it wants what
Sarulani wants, it enters the earth, we are on
the earth, we have earth, it is a sign of
Sarulani, what is it? But let them bring it.

00:20:18 This is a very good one because the main cut of colour in
the stuff that it is, it's got some samples. Of it, which I
think would be very good. Then she would want to say
to show us. But getting back to what I was saying here is
that when they were given up the walls, I was asking us
to, do you know how to paint them? She said, no, no, no.
We had already learned to paint from the time when we
were little. And then she was also putting up something
that when they were doing, they're trying to imitate old
people. When old people were not looking, they will run
over there and liberate, not to steal and liberate a bit of
colours in actually for themselves, so that they can also
be moving up. Meanwhile, the other people I think have
been watching for talent.

00:21:25 Interesting.

0:21:29 Joana Musa baphi babangabonakali bathathi beg ye sarulani Do not go where they can't see you; take that
ingekephi gijima uyidal isarulani thing to Sarulani, don't go elsewhere, run,
take it to Sarulani.

00:21:41 He spoke in the car, had a long conversation, the two of

us about do it yourself. And then you said also now,
yeah, do it. Do it now. And that's what you suggest. Now
we're going to do it yourself painitng. This idea of and
you also use that word do it. It's a do it yourself painting.
0:22:04 Esther Mahlangu Sobathi indaba yokhela kuthi khona ninzenzele nina into People say the matter of kindness is that you
enikeyakho ukutshile nawe kuthi lokuthi kusehlala eh should do something good as you wish for
egazini zakho encongondweni zakho ise inguwe yourself, so that it remains in your blood and
in your thoughts as part of who you are.

00:22:18 So in other words, what you're saying is that the colours

and the action that went over in them becomes them.
They become just that. Their identity is linked to colour
is linked to that action. And everything.

0:22:33 Joana Lethi kokanje I black ileyazi, angithi ungenaliphi ithunga That black one there knows, isn't it so, it has a
ne lesarulani, Ayi ngisebeza ngathi sikhona nendaba connection with Sarulani. No, I'm just
yayokuyifuna , beka lapha kuyitshaba guessing, as if there is a matter it wants to
reveal; put it here, it dislikes it.

00:22:49 Thank you.

00:22:52 So what that was emphasising is that when we're doing

this, when we were little, you had to start with the
father. Because once you start with anything else, you're
going to have to start with a father right at the
beginning. And you know your weapon.

0:23:30 Thomas Girst So, these are the colours. Ningaki imibala engaphuma
nihlala bonisayo? Hayi yilokho ibuneke nje , inje ngoba
ihlukene , ngithe balethi inhlabathi sebenzisa ihlabathi,
mamko ngalethi ihlabathi , yiyo le, ngithe eyiphuphu,
ikuphi, emva kwemnyango laphaya kunethunga ,
kuyathunga yah, inesarulani ine iya inesarulani
Do you not see the colors that come out
when you stay visible? No, that's just how it
looks, it looks like that because it's different. I
say they bring earth, use earth, the one with
clay uses clay, that's it. I say it's reddish,
where does it come from? Behind the door
there, there is a mound, it's a mound, yes,
Sarulani has a mound, Sarulani has it

00:23:52 As I insisted on bringing up the real kind of, uh, uh,

innocence where we can actually see the colours
here, the all coagulated and hard. So we have to
 see. So to show us different colours.
00:24:19 In literature. The literature about her work, uh, the
colours and the patterns have been linked to anything
from, you know, mathematical from mathematics to
cosmology. And she's somewhere situated between the
abstract and the figurative. Can she elaborate on, on
what a certain colour stands for, or is it just about the
composition? You know, does the does the blue in her
work stand for something else than the yellow or the
green?

00:24:50 All right. But before we answer that, I know she won't
show us until that, until she shows us this.

00:25:00 Yeah.

00:25:10 This one is from her studio directly now, that we

are looking at.
00:25:18 And did she mention that there is a scent?
00:25:23 Yeah. This is the one. This is what you dig from the
river? Yeah.
00:25:30 This is all the scent you get from the river banks,
where the colours come.
00:25:35 Are you able to get blue as well from these?
00:25:38 Yeah, you can get blue from these. There's a variety
of colours.
00:25:44 Amazing.
00:25:45 Real purple innovation.
00:25:51 Okay.
0:25:55 Joana Uthi uThomas ufundile koningi obalwe ngawe ukuthi
imbala le eh isuthini iyobeka kuwe abanye bathi konke
lokho ngathi buka ihlubanapha yokungenela lapha
encono lapho uzathini ngalokho ,. Uyena babaphansi ,
abe abe abeba hlaba bamgonganekanye nabo mzini
abagwala bekelele nibengenge nehlabathi iye , ngathi
Thomas ngathi namhlanje siningi, hawu yinto zabantu
abadala
Thomas says he has learned a lot, what is said
about you is that the color in the room will
suit you, and others say everything as if you
see a better view here, wherever you are. He
is the one below, he who carries the mound,
he who carries and carries, the healer goes
with the earth, saying, 'Thomas, today we are
many,' oh, it's the way of the elders.

00:26:37 And he says that uh in terms of tradition, whatever they

are doing is a continuation of uh their ancestral spirits
and ancestral traditions is a whole chain of what is going
which links with the answer she gave earlier on, on ten-
year-old that are going to walk on their footsteps. That is
similar cosmological line runs through this and is
manifested through colour and line.

00:27:08 Maybe I can ask the question a little bit differently. So

we observe that there is no figuration, no representation
of people in these geometric forms, in these shapes and
these sizes, these colours and the idea that the
embodiment of genealogy of, you know, of the ancestors
through them. Is there something that happens? Maybe
there is a monument or, or a special type of
representation to represent an ancestor or to represent,
family or love? Is there like a code within these in the
way as captured by the ancestors. Is there a way of
codifying these paintings through these colours and
through these the final product?

0:28:10 Esther Mahlangu Uthi laba sokuthuluka sucubeka se into yathoma He says those who are progressing, their
ingabeza ngaphambili , manje uyabuza ukuthi njengoba appearance stands out, something is
la amagwala lola akuna bantu akunalwani, akuna happening ahead. Now you ask, as in this
 mkhukhu, kukhuluma njani? Akuna mkhukhu, awalathi
sisukwenza izinto ebebeka ngayo inzima ngathi siyenza
into eyona ngathi siphila ngayo yona . imphilisa njani?
Kle kamnandi khona phela, umnchama sumnchama
labphothela uyazi ukuthi ukwengalokho, kwengalokho ,
lokho sioyazi kuthi izwana nobulongwe phelela neglabo
place, there are no people, no huts, how does
it speak? There are no huts, it doesn't laugh,
we do things that are difficult, as if we are
doing something else, as if we are living in
another way. How is the progress? It is very
good there, the progress is great, the one
who goes forward knows that it is really,
really, that we know that it is a way of life
that endures, with them

00:28:56 So what you're saying is that uh, in terms of uh colours

and the absence of any kind of uh, figurative or very
realistic, you know, issue is still part and parcel of that,
uh, abstract, uh, you know, persuasion of, uh, the uh,
kind of ancestral forces and that they've got to do just to
continue the, uh, uh, the, I mean, the move of what they
are doing and, of course, undergoing changes along the
line as it did like moving from pop to acrylic. So, within
that kind of a context.

00:29:35 Yeah, we love it. We love it.

00:29:38 And following this question, I was curious because
of course, you know, what your question led to is
also the question of the visual language. You know
that it's a that it's a visual language, and each
geometric aspect of your work functions in a way, I
think, as part of a visual language. And, and you
mentioned in interviews also that within this visual
language, it sometimes signifies key life events, you
know, things which happen in your life. So I wanted
to ask about that, know about the visual language
and how the visual language of your work connects
to what you experience, to your to your life, to key
 life events, how they're being translated in a way,
how the key life events from from your life are
being translated into this visual language. So in a
way, it very connects to your question. It leads to
the question of the symbolism of the work and also
how it shifts, maybe depending where you are or
what you experience in life or beyond that. Also
what happens to society, you know, in the broader
field.
0:30:48 Unknown Speaker Babuza ngokuthi la, ma ucala umberegolo noma .They are asking about this, whether you call
sokuyenza ilayini odrowa lona enjeke lapha lithini noma it a flag or make it a wine label, how it moves
ubona kuthi lihlezi lihlambe yonke, kwenzakalani kuthi like this, where does it stand or do you see it
dosa ube onje, yini lokho ke, awukhoni into standing out entirely, what happened when
ekhumbulayo, encanini bakho noma kuphi nawenza nje, you tasted it, what is that? Can you
kwenzakali encondweni yakho nakubuleka? Kwenzakala remember something, in your thoughts or
njani nithokoza nalezi ma ngikuyidosa ke zakithi kungathi from where you are, do you just do it, did it
kunakale nithokozana ma ngidosa , ayi kuthi bathi ngize, happen in your inner self, and do you feel
noma nento engiyenza kuzwayo lawa gratitude? How did it happen, do you rejoice
in these things, I'm telling you it's like we're
all rejoicing, I'm telling you to come, or
whatever I'm doing is heard by these.

00:31:49 Mean theoretical abstractions. I can always see noses.

Get that feather, and then something takes over and she
draws a straight line, and then she's fulfilled.

00:31:56 But it's a beautiful answer. And how does it relate to sort
of experience? Because she did say in an interview once
that, um, I found that in an interview that some key life
events, you know, some things which happen in life
influenced the work. How does what happens to her in
her life or what happens to society influence the work?
 All right. So that was the second part of the question.

00:32:26 Which is interesting.

0:32:27 Esther Mahlangu Bazofunukwazi ukuthi izinto ezinzenzakalayo empilweni
akho basithi khona abantu abayayidunza nabo abanye
abaya baleka encondweni akho kuyangena na, nagena
kuphuma njani la embelekweni. Izinto enye
engayicabnga ngekancane yindaba zokuzizwa bathi kade
angina lapho
They will be able to understand that things
that happen in your life, they say there are
people who are pulling it, and others who are
running away in your inner self, does it enter
or exit in a certain way in the realm of your
thoughts. One thing that I can't think about a
little is the matter of hearing them say it has
been a long time without getting to where.

00:32:57 Oh yeah, because I had asked that just for an example

that it is chaos anyway around how does it actually
affect her when she's saying, I don't want to get involved
in all of those ugly things that are around there. So
whatever else I do, I think I've kind of sublimated right?
Deep down that cannot be articulated to such. Well.

00:33:20 So what about when there's joy, like something like, you
know, maybe when with the, um, you know, with the
transformation and the country, the major
transformation with Mandela being free and those kind
of key events, um, does it influence the work, that kind
of major joyous event? Does it influence the work or the
colours or the choice or, or inspired to make a
monument or something like that?

0:33:49 Joana Uyabuza ngokuthi uMandela uyaphuma ejele nabantu
ananingi sebatshaphulula ejele inahha ijabule
ekhulukhulu , inga, ngokwesikhathi sokwenzeka lokho
kade ugwala ni uyakhumbula? Angizwanga ngazegangani
ngakho ngapho ngi ngoba ngazibona nga bengi
bengingangane ngoku bambelana ngophumana
ngobekwenzeka aha
ou're asking about Mandela, that he emerged
from prison and many people helped in the
struggle against apartheid, and it was a great
joy, right? At the time when that happened,
were you still young and do you remember? I
didn't understand properly, that's why I
asked, because I saw it when I was still quite
 young, relating to each other and coming
together because of what was happening
there.

00:34:24 Yeah. She says that whatever has been actually

happening out around there in the world, she is not
kind of quiet part of it. She's just absolutely
dedicated herself to aircraft and to her art.
00:34:40 I'm talking about the dedication to her craft and her
art, and we spoke about the ancestors before. Um,
she is certainly considered a pioneer and an
innovator in terms of what she has been doing with
Ndebele art. Can you ask her where does she see
her pioneering and her innovation, building up on
what she has learned from her ancestors.
0:35:07 Esther Mahlangu Uthi uThomas u laba bafunde khona ngaba zwawo Thomas says they learned there that you are
ukuthi nguwe wokuthomoa okhethe inyangaphelekwe the one chosen to represent when others
ngesikhathi ngabanye abantu kuwe ngokuthoma choose someone to board the airplane, to
owangene e aeropleyini, kuwe ngokuthoma ugwala you they entrust everything to do with flying
phesheya konke e kwenze nje , uthini ngalokho wena , abroad. What do you say about that, you
yazi uyisibonelo wena kwabanye . Hawu ngaloshiyo, know you are an example to others. Wow,
ngendlela le engathini ngalokho that's impressive, in the way that it is

00:35:45 So what can I say to something like that?

00:35:50 I'm a pioneer?
00:35:52 Nothing much said about that.
0:36:02 Joana Kade ubefunukuphuma? Mina? iye ngifunukuphuma . You've been wanting to go back for a while?
uzabuya? Ayi kwaba kuyophela nini? Me? Yes, I want to go back. Will you return?
When will it happen?
00:36:14 She is asking how long do we have?
00:36:19 We have time.
00:36:21 You have time. She doesn't have time. Let's
negotiate time.
00:36:26 How much time does she have?
00:36:27 How many questions?
00:36:28 We have a few more questions.
00:36:32 We could go on forever, but we stop whenever she
wants.
00:36:35 We can have a drink.
00:36:37 Is it okay for her to continue, or do we need a
break?
00:36:40 Or we can have a break under some food and some
drinks, and everyone can have a drink and relax a
bit, and then we get back.
0:36:50 Esther Mahlangu Bathi ungafuna ukuphumula , ungaphumula nje
katshana bese sizoceda noma sicubeke nje secede?
Angisabuyi. Yiyecinisiyo liyafunakala angithi . Angisabuyi
ngizokwenzani lamzini babuzile bacede kodwa
ngizothatha phi indaba?Asicubeke njalo ungakakhambi
sebuzena secede masiye ndlini . Wena ngogwala wonke
lokho wena uthini ngongane kakhuluma . Mina uklale
ukhaba , thina sithokoza abamsophe bona
abasiphekelele imphilo emphende, sasuka ehlabathini
sangenemphende, jabulile enkulu ngoba kunelento
kuyangisiza asiyinto lowo efuna komango
00:37:05 Yeah. She said the truth is needed. If she leaves here,
she's not coming back.
00:37:13 Maybe. Then why don't we ask a few questions?
00:37:18 Okay. Let's get that.
00:38:01 She said that they are very grateful to white people
who got them out of this in order to get the beans
that dry absolutely, very quickly, that makes them
realise their objectives very quicker. Yeah.
0:38:24 Joana Ke bvangitshela ngalokho hlabahlabahla babuye laphi
labantu aba, labantu aba, babuye e Jayimani , angithi
wena wagwala imoto lowaya, ngiyavuma , ngabantu ke
kade baphethe igolobo , umadolo, yebo , yizangathi
umadolo nabakhi ndlulena yibo laba , abakhindlulu yana
00:38:49 Oh. So, reminding them that you are the guy that
painted your cover. And it is reminding us that house
They say you want to rest, just rest a bit, then
we'll help or just look after, secede? I'm not
coming back. The truth is sought after, isn't
it? I'm not coming back, what will I do there?
Let's just keep going, don't worry, let's go
home. You, the wanderer, what are you
saying? As for me, I'm sleeping, we rejoice for
those who have paved the way for us in life.
We come from the earthly realm with joy
because there is something that will help us,
something desired by many.
I'm telling you about the wanderers who have
returned, where are they from, those people,
they returned from Germany. I hear that you
drove a car, I agree. These are people who
have long held the steering wheel, the driver,
yes, it seems like the driver and the builder,
they are the ones.
 that is there. It is you. Mhm. Because as far as you are
concerned, you are two white people talking with a black
person.

0:39:18 Thomas Girst Yibo ke laba abakhi ndlu le wena wabagwalela
umotorolo manje bafunukuthi wena wumbuyiso lezo
kwakho le Cape Town , uyenzeka ukuthi umotorolo lana
ubayifake esikepheni uze la umbere kwaze kwazibonela
wena ngalento engangibi la,
They are the ones who built the house, and
you drove a car for them. Now they want you
to be the driver in Cape Town. It can happen
that the car here may have been put on
display or showcased, and you might have
seen it with something that I am not aware
of.

00:39:37 So I'm just reminding you that there is a possibility that

some of the works he had sold out somewhere there
that can be borrowed, even including the archives
possible to come. So you can say, oh, this is me that
really did this in explaining the retrospective. She's
pleased with that.

00:39:56 That's wonderful.

00:39:57 That's wonderful. And maybe one more question for you
is about the collaboration, because I think you have
these very, very special collaboration between the two
of you. So it would be great, I think, to hear about that.

0:40:14 Joana alo wathi ukuthi ukwenzeka kamnandi la kaze nobabili
kade nibebunisana , kade yingali kuthi uthathe mbala,,
ngisele kakha name ngikhulu, kusho kuthi
akangangithaphi le, ngiyabuya kizenimkhulu kithi
Mhalula lapha nibe ndlanu, awulaphaya abeleke kuthi
isobekwa kwasuke kwasukelela , kaze kamnandi kuluba
zange ke silwe zange ke siyenzi le
Halo said that it was nice here when we were
both younger, we used to interact, it's not
like it is now where you would take offense. I
also contributed my part and grew up here. It
means that he has no issues with me. I'll
come back to visit you all in Mhalula, where
we were five. Don't overburden yourselves
with unnecessary things, it used to be nice
before it changed.
00:40:40 She said they had a very harmonious working
relationship and this one has an aspect and older.
So whenever she had made a mistake and just feel
that, hey, I've made this mistake, I don't know how
to save it, then she'll take a canvas and show it to a
carrier and said, this is what I've done, and and say,
no, no, you can do it this way and this way and this
way. Always been a very harmonious thing. All
united.
0:41:14 Thomas Girst Nihlanganisa amagwal, yebo sihlanganimis amagwala You gather experiences, yes, we accumulate
experiences

00:41:16 I have a question about, um, maybe it's in the belly, or

maybe it's something that is unique to to to the sisters
or to the sense of style that they have. They're very
stylish. The way they dress and the way they are pair. It's
something that is localised in the belly. Or is it something
that they just have amongst themselves, you know, this
sense of fashion and stylish representation? Is it like a
cultural thing that we don't know about that, or is it just
unique to them.

0:41:46 Joana Ufuna ukwazi kuthi nabakahle kangaka imbala imihle,
magwala umahle kodwa kwabanye abantu ki
asibonakali lutho manje nibenezimu imbala le emihle
ibaningi kangaka kwenzeyiwa lokho kubuya phi? Hawu
ugwala wabanye bathandi baba, abanye bathanda
abanalakho kwabanalakho, thina sithandi Ndebele
sokuyazi . iNdebele sasikehelaki isimi, angithi Amanda
ngathi kuwetshana kweZulu . Iye baya, Manje imbala le
ibuya phi? Khona utshehelo, umtshehelo , khona
umtshehelo wemzanzi , phethenitshe lona wemhawelo
ukuphi lapho kwenzakalani lapho
Do you want to know why some people
admire a certain beautiful skin color, while
others find it not as appealing? Well, people
have different preferences; some love what
they don't have, and others appreciate what
they have. We, the Ndebele people, love and
appreciate our Ndebele culture. Ndebele is
unique, just as Zulu is unique. Yes, there is
diversity. Now, where does this beautiful skin
color come from? There's heritage, there's a
mix of heritage. It's a blend of different
 cultures, a blend of beautiful traditions.
Wherever it comes from, it's a representation
of our rich and diverse heritage.

00:42:39 So, we are tracing the place where all these things are
supposed to have originated from.

0:42:50 Esther Mahlangu Angithi kwaba nomhelelo babanikela ehhuluyini,
ehhulwini khona umtshgehelo ohhulwin, ehhulwini
khona kwamaNdebele sekhona ke omtshehelo ,
ehhulwini vel, lona kade nga bekhona, laba kade
bengabekhona, Ingani kakho kade ngazi
It seems there is a hierarchy or system of
recognition in 'ehhuluyini' or 'ehhulwini.' In
this place, there is a value system, and among
the Ndebele, there is also a form of
recognition. In 'ehhulwini,' yes, there has
always been one, those who were always
there. Those who were present and those
who were not present. Perhaps this is
something I knew a long time ago.

00:43:04 Oh, yeah. So what they are doing, they are tracing this
back. There was a an incident where they were PD chief
or king and mad at his cousin and then fled to the
kingdom, and then the devil protected him. So those
who were victims came up now with white people to
come and attack, uh, to fetch the person. So the people
went into a cave. And it is inside that cave where they
were besieged for a long time. They will come out when
the food that actually ran out. And so much of the stuff
that we actually see here in terms of colours, where
things that originated in the minds of the people that
were trapped, you know, inside their thinking about the
future of their nation and what really needed, you know,
to be, you know, to be done, which is obviously not even
occurred there to be that the whole of painting of the
house is in bright colours. After that incident, when the
people were still fighting after their defeat to say, here is
another house. This is a really safe house. They were all
 planned inside that cave. That is why every year around
about December or whatever else it is, the other people
will have to go to the, you know, to that cave to go and
pay tribute to the people who lived there and the ideas.
It's about a hallway which.

0:44:40 Joana Ngisabacazela ngokuthi ehholweni, ngicazela kanjalo
kuthi kwenzekalani namandla esukakhera khona lapho
lamandla la apho kuma enhizweni nencondweni
ngamaNdebele kuze phuma lapha ngokwenu kwibalila
nje kuthi yiquba yibakela phambili ngomberegolo
kwabaphansi izakhe ngaphi kwenu
I was explaining to them about 'ehholweni,'
asking how strength is demonstrated or what
kind of power is displayed there, where the
strength in the heart and spirit of the
Ndebele people is evident. It seems like it's a
matter of leading from the front with
authority, transcending from those below,
creating a path forward. Where does this
strength come from in your view?

00:45:04 That's a very beautiful. That's a great story.

00:45:07 And of course, the painting, has its origin, as we
discussed before, in the decoration of houses, and
women would repaint the interior and exterior of a
house in a tradition to mark a kind of a rite of
passage. And then in 89 something happens, which
is magiciens de la terre, where we saw each other
for the first time. I saw the work at the opening.
And, uh, and that's the first time the work is taken
out of that context. No, which is significant, I think,
particularly in the context of this retrospective,
which is going to travel. It's, I think, important to
talk about that moment when, for the first time,
the work was taken out of the context. And, uh,
there was in Paris, the house is presented. So, I
wanted to just hear a little bit about that and about
 Magiciens de la Terre and the piece she, she made
and what it meant in a way, actually, um, that, um,
the work in that sense, the house painted by her
was displayed and also her memories of the
reactions and just, you know, to talk about that
moment. No. Which I think is a great.
0:46:20 Esther Mahlangu Ukumbuza ke ngokwaye, uyogwala ke lapha ko1989
indawo yokuthoma yokuthi amagwalo aphume la
emzanzi ayephetsheya kumbere kwako yoyowenza
ibuphuma kuwo omkhulu ukhuluma ngawo lewoypo ke,
ukuthi umbuyiso yozabokhona ezimishi into ebakhuluma
ngayo ukuzazifaka khona lapho nokuthi ucubeke njani
emva kalokho ewokuthi wenzani ucubembere kwako
ekuphio ngaphambi
Reminiscing about 1989, it is said that the
place where traditions emerged in the south
was remarkable. A prominent elder speaks
about the traditions that were discussed,
emphasizing the importance of preserving
them. The elder talks about the practices and
how they should continue into the future,
ensuring that they are upheld and
progressed.

00:47:00 The earlier question you asked is that I missed.

00:45:05 Yeah. He was basically the question was about, you
know, magiciens de la terre and and the earlier part
of the question is, of course, that the origin of the
painting is in the tradition is the decoration of the
houses. You know, when women would repaint the
entire interior and exterior of a, of a house to mark
a kind of a rite of passage now. And so that means
it's very much in situ. One could say it's very much
for a specific context of life, of living, of lived
reality. And then, uh, of course, with Magiciens de
la Terre and many times later, the work leaves this
context, as you say, it's a chain of context. It goes
into a different context. Um, and um, and of course
now, now it's, it's, uh, in the retrospective, there
 will be many works, you know, other works on
canvas, you know, but the Magiciens de la terre is
the first work where it sort of travels there. The
work travels, you know, it goes outside the context.
And of course, now there are painting. And so that
leads also to the question, you know, how is it
different to paint a wall, uh, which is very much in a
lift environment like here. How is it different from
actually a work painting on a canvas? Also, are
images that are there on a model, on a, on a, on a
house, which is in a museum, in a gallery. That's I
don't know if that's. Yeah. No that's fine.
0:48:39 Joana Ukhulume ngokuthi umagwala ibonda nje nogwala Speak about how 'magwala' is just a glimpse
ukuphethe Ikamva engaka ejele kluke phi, ikwenzeka into the future, and how preserving cultural
into okwehluko na ujabuleya ibale ibodolela lezi phathi traditions is essential. It explores the
ugwala uba imehluko . Awa uthe lala phansi nokujaba differences and the joy that comes with
nokujaba , okubhedela usabuka ngaphasi umasi lapho embracing and safeguarding traditions. It
uyadinga , manje na lezi phasi kitlabalele iduze . mentions the aspect of staying grounded and
connected to the roots, adapting when
necessary, and continuing to thrive.

00:49:18 Yeah. So it says, as time goes on, when we paint a wall,

you are standing in there and the force of gravity that
doesn't agree with you. And yet, when we're having a
canvas, we can sit down flat on the ground or on the
table. You're thoroughly more relaxed and more kind of
creative.

00:49:42 So, one of the things I think another part of the question
was, how did it feel to see the work outside of this local
context, in another context, in a Western context, in
Paris, in surrounded by people that are. For whom this is
really mysterious and strange and, you know, it's
 beautiful and spectacular.

00:50:02 And the memories also; Esther's memories of Magiciens

de la Terre and of that opening, you know, where I saw
her and watched.

00:50:11 Yeah. Well, how did he feel at that moment? What does
she remember about it?

00:51:10 Hey, she said that she just might cut off her. You know,
Joy, knowing that I've completed, you know, something
like the, like the moment in itself, through her, inside,
you know, herself. Maybe it could be in retrospect
where she thinks what has happened. But at that
moment, that sense of completion, that sense of
accomplishment, it was the key critical things.

00:51:40 Esther has travelled the globe, you know. I know she's
been to Paris. We have invited her to London. She's been
in the United States often. What is her favourite city
outside of outside of those Africa, of all the cities she's
been to. And the second part of the question, if she went
into those cities, she engaged in the culture there. She
looked at museums. Was there anything she was
inspired by, another artist or architecture that that stuck
with her?

0:52:17 Esther Mahlangu Ngakuzwa kuzwana kuphi zonke zindawo zesi
egadiuzitsho , kiyophi indawo noma engahamba
ukhumbula kakhulu ocabanga kuthi uthe lapha wajabula
kade bemnandi , Aba mina konke abangiphathe kle,
abangiphathe kle . babuza masidla siyokuthi tshapulelo
ungahlupheka uzimbingi emphatho ngasinye .
I hear that there are many places in this
world, and wherever you go, you remember
fondly the places where you were happy and
things were enjoyable. For me, everyone who
treated me well, treated me well. They asked
us to eat, saying we will cook a feast, and you
won't go hungry; it's a celebration that uplifts
the spirit together.
00:52:40 Yeah. You know, she said she doesn’t have a
Favourite city. Wherever she is, she feels very
welcomed, but she's uncomfortable now. How
many more questions do you have?
00:52:48 Two or three more questions.
00:52:54 Three more questions. Three more yeah.

00:53:04 So, one is the follow up to the question. Was there

anything any artist, any museum, any architecture
she was inspired by while travelling the globe?
0:53:13 Joana Kanti kumbe bangangitsheli ukuze bazo suka bengibuzi
nje . Ubuza ukuthi lapha kade ukhona, ubayiphi indawo
noma seyarisi, noma bekuphi lawathanda khona
wakheka kuphi ndawo . Awa kuyafana abamhlongo
kuble konke
But perhaps they don't tell me where they've
been, and I just ask. Asking where you used to
be, where you liked to go, and where you
found your place. Ah, it's all similar, the
beauty of everything.

00:53:39 She said all the same. Yeah. So what, I suppose, is

that whatever questions, then I can beam the
questions later. Yeah.
00:53:46 We have an hour or so. It's good, you know.
00:53:48 Thank you.
00:53:50 We'll be back on Monday anyway
00:53:55 Yes.
0:54:01 Thomas Girst Uthokozile, lababantu bahlupha phasi , njengabathandi You are delighted, those people who radiate
uncinci suke , bazzwuletha lapha ukuze nje zaphumayo positivity, like those who love
lapho khona babuye emzini zabo. Bayathandi wena, unconditionally. They come to you just to
 bazithokozile bayzithandi , ezezihlu dlala beziphuza
imdlala, sizayicala ke thina ke kade bangayikuphi
sizoyifunda nawe ke uze kuthi ithi ingibi lokuthi
labagama lakho la akekho amagama abafakileyo
abangeko aba
bring joy when they return to their homes.
They love you, they genuinely love you, they
play in their homes, and we will learn from
them too. So that your name will be
remembered not by the names you put on
others, but by those who genuinely care.

00:54:22 Can we take a picture maybe with Joana?

00:54:30 Okay.

00:54:33 Thank you. That is cosy. But my time is flying.

00:54:57 Yeah. So, I was just saying to her is that, once the
whole, you know, book has been done or whatever
else, you know, I would look at the copy myself to
make sure that it’s very well represented.
00:55:13 Of course.
00:55:14 Before we even print it will definitely come back
before it goes to print. It will definitely come. Yeah.
00:55:19 So, I have all my work, yeah.
0:55:28 Joana Besibona ukuthi besindlu lakho na akukho kuningi We have noticed that there aren't many
bakufakile akho , afuna ungasiNdebele lana angithi. people in your home who want to speak
Angithi umawungapheshe isikhabo nawo uyavuma Ndebele. It seems like someone agrees that
khpona kutshtshana uyaziyazi uma ungaphetshe , you shouldn't force them, and they might
yabona a French lawo , yoh a French laba prefer French

00:55:37 I'll get you nothing. It's now got its cover.

00:55:45 Bonjour. Merci beaucoup. Ca va? Comment te Good morning. Thank you very much. How
t’appelles? are you? What’s your name.
00:55:56 What is she saying?
00:55:58 She is just saying it's so good to go to any country.
All cultures are very different and very interesting.
Now, she just quoted in french, maybe by indirectly
answering your question about the favourite city.
00:56:13 Tu put the words in your mouth.

00:56:14 Very beautiful, thank you. We are very grateful

00:54:22 Does she have a definition of art? Because that was

really you know, Gerhard Richter says art is the highest
form of hope. What is art for her? Does she have a
definition of art? That was my most important question.

00:56:35 Last question?

00:56:37 Yeah, I promise.
00:56:40 Okay.
00:56:43 Thomas Girst Umbuzo okugcina The last question

00:56:43 Can you repeat?

0:57:05 Joana Khona kade abagwala aboneka phansi kuthi umbere
kwako yona iyenzeka koyini? Waphendula wathi kimi
There have always been sick people seen
umbereko yona kimi yo okunike yona yithemba
below; what is happening with your healing?
nakubona kuthi umbere kwakho lo ngibona kuthi
You replied to me, saying your healing is like a
ithemba , wena nokubona wakho ubonani?
gift of hope for me to see that your healing is
something I see as hope. When you see
yourself, what do you see? So, there are
people who want your healing; what do you
do for them? Can you provide your healing?
What is the thing you offer there as hope? If I

0:57:29 Esther Mahlangu Sokuthi kukhona abantu laba abafuna umbere kwakho
lawa uyenza ngokuyini? Ungakwenza khona
umberekwakho yini into ongonike khona themba, uma
ngibonekhona ngibona nje ithemba. Wena ngokubona
kwakho ubona ni? Nangombere leka lokho , ngizobona
njani uma ngibona umbere ngajabula musi igwalile
mhlambe nizengoba neminyanya njabulo nize apha
kwealile ku
00:57:43 Yeah. She says when she actually looks up. Against such
exceedingly, you know, happy, like she's actually
anticipating some ceremony or some celebration in
some way. That's really what it is. Where with the other
one was hope with her work is just happiness that exists
through her.
00:58:05 So beautiful. Beautiful.
00:58:08 Thank you that you read about.
0:58:28 Joana Bathokozile uthembululani, yabona ndifundile, ubonisa ,
siyathokoza bayathokoza khona uphendule njenge ento
le angithi, ngilalele, sokulindelele ngokokwaMandela
ohlanganiphe nebiss adla ke ne vorosi, thina sidla
ngezandla ibisi idla ngezandla. Ngithathi bisi lapha
ngifake lapha komutzi sengithathe
see it, I see only hope. When I see your
healing, I am happy, as it has prevailed for a
long time, and you are as joyful as the early
morning. How do you see yourselves?
So that there are people who want something
from you, what do you do about those who
make requests from you? Can you do
something for your requesters, what can you
offer them hope, if I see it, I only see hope.
What do you see when you look at yourself?
Even if it's pride, how will I see it when I see
the hope, you are happy as soon as it has
happened, because of the joy of fruits and
happiness, you come to the place of
happiness.
It seems you are pleased, why are you
pleased, I've learned, you show, we are happy
there, answer like something that I don't
know, I'll sleep, we are waiting, like Mandela
who unites with a piece of bread and a bottle,
we eat with our hands, she eats with her
hands. I take bread here and put it in the
 sauce, then I take it

00:59:06 See the Ndebele is a very special people. There are those
who say they are so wise that they can even drink milk
with a fork. And now she says, the fork is in the hands
here. She says when there's milk there, they just take
the milk from there and pour it here then eat it so the
hand is clean. Take it here and put it here.

00:59:36 We need 1 photograph before she leaves.

00:59:38 Okay. Look here. 1,2,3.

00:59:43 One more, look here.

Thank you. Look here. Smile, everyone. There we go.

Lovely. Thank you. Everyone got it?

00:59:57 Okay.

01:00:01 What did you say?

01:00:02 No, I'm just saying she must come with a repeat
visit. Two weeks ago, she came to visit us at home
and we just had absolute fun in Johannesburg.
01:00:12 That's one of the reasons why things today went
very well. Because it was in a sense, kind of
preparation.
01:00:18 Yeah. Thank you so much. Because it was really
special.
01:00:20 No, please tell her that it was such a special
interview. Magical. So we are very grateful.