A: Okay, yeah, look, maybe if we just go through some introductions and I'll tell you a little bit about

the
research as well so I work for the University of Technology, Sydney and this research piece, there's a few
different elements but really that what I was hoping to focus on today is about what's driving the
transition in rural areas to piped water schemes and pipe to the household so quite specific and then
more broadly, you know, how are those current and emerging pipe schemes, finance regulated and
operated in Senegal and the main reason for choosing Senegal actually was just because it was a positive
outlier, the core countries, the researchers focusing on is India, Gambia, and Zambia but there were
three other countries that USAID wanted to focus on just because, yeah, you know, they're seemingly
bucking the trend and managed to roll out several pipe schemes, I guess, despite perhaps a lower GDP
and that was Senegal and then also Bhutan and Honduras so quite two quite different countries from
Senegal.
B: [1:29] around the world, yeah.
A: Yes, exactly, so I've been traveling across those various countries. We had Bhutan I think and
Honduras yesterday as well and, you know, I imagine quite different context to say.
B: I've never been in Senegal now?
A: I haven't, yeah, so disclaimer, I mean, my experience in Africa is I did my PhD in Malawi, and I've done
some work in Malawi and Zimbabwe but I haven't been to Senegal, and there's a lot of the continent I
haven't been lucky enough to visit. And so, you'll have to excuse some of my ignorance about Senegal
too.
B: No, no, I have no problem.
A: Basic questions as well. Yeah, so the research, it's a political economy analysis, looking at that
transition into pipe household schemes in rural areas. And so that's sort of the range of the questions I
was going to ask about today.
B: Okay.
A: Yeah, make sure, you don't take too much of your time, we'll keep it to an hour, but if you need to go,
you have interruptions.
B: No problem.
A: Whatsoever, okay. Yeah, and then I think we're probably a little ways away from putting the report
together, there's a quantitative analysis that one of my colleagues done looking at, you know, yeah, a
more global perspective, I guess, on relationship between GDP and pipe schemes and then there's also
this sort of qualitative political economy analysis that I'll be working on with the team.
B: Okay.
A: Yeah. Is there anything you would like me to clarify?
B: No, I think I have gone through the document that you have sent.
A: Right, yeah,
B: I'm not sure, some idea of what you want and what is it.
A: Yeah. I'm not sure if I should have checked I'm not sure how much that emphasized the pipe schemes
or not because there was a few other elements that are highlighted in there, but hopefully that was
helpful.
B: Okay.
A: Great.
B: I'll try to respond to your question.
A: Thank you so much, yeah. I've got a list here but we’re trying.
B: I don't pretend to know everything on, but I can do my best.
A: Yeah, thank you. So we might actually just start for the recording, if you could just clarify your name
and your current position, I had a look sort of on LinkedIn and upgrade website, and it seems like, you've
represented, we wear a few different hats in the sector, so it'd be great to hear from yourself about your
current role in Senegal.
B: Okay, my name is Mustafa [4:24]. I am Hydro geologist, working currently at [4:32] University, [4:33]
University is the first university built in Senegal, and this the most the largest university in Senegal. We
have around 100,000 students. I'm working at the Department of Geology and I'm providing course for
Master Degree’s student in Hydrogeology. Yes, and also I was the coordinator of the African
Groundwater Network is a network affiliated to [5:15] and working on capacity building on groundwater
management. I'm still member of this network, but I am no longer the manager, yeah, services network.
I also participated in many project in Senegal on rural area, also in rural water supply net network and in
this scale, the level of international in the regional area, I'm working also on transponder [6:04]. Yes, and
yeah, with the government and those things, that's, I think, something that I can tell.
A: That's great. And has your role evolved over time, I guess? Yeah, is there other experience, you know,
prior to, yeah, what you're doing now? You would like to share about some of your exposure in the
sector?
B: Yes, I work as a consultant; I work for many public institutions. Yes, to implement water supply in
rural area, and also to study him to implement this water supply. Yes, in the last five years, I was even
supervising rural water supply project, yeah, to implement, you know, in Senegal you have the [7:20]
that you have borehole and water tower, and then network to connect all the villages, the main system
that we use in Senegal, so it was a project financed by the government of Senegal and to implement a
number of borehole through water tower under pipe to supply some villages, and yeah, you know, so
going on, contacted some enterprises and I just lead a team of supervisor to oversee this work, get it
done on the best manner or something like that.
A: I'd love to come back to hear more about that experience because, yeah, from what my
understanding is Senegal is a bit of an outline in terms of prioritizing those types of schemes you spoke
about with pipe systems versus borehole compared to some of you know, your neighbors, so anyway, I'll
come back to that question later on but I'm curious about what are some of the trends you have
observed or starting to observe regarding piped water to premises, particularly in rural areas, you know,
what sort of changes are you seeing or have you seen over time?
B: Yes, you know, we have good root access to water access in rural but you have some disparities
because it's like an average of water access, but in some part, very isolated area, you know, they face
challenges of getting you know, having potable water of fresh water, it's something that I something
challenges that the government need to face. And also I think in some area, you know, you have pipes of
so fresh potable water, but people are using, you know, still using shallow dwell despite the existence of
borehole and the stuff provides them with fresh water, it's something that challenge.
A: Yeah.
B: Yeah, to convince people to raise awareness that the water they are using are not portable or
something like that. Yeah, and mostly we see that in the south of the country because in this area, they
have alternative because shallow water, you can get water, you know, with dug well less than 10 meter
depth, so very easy to get there.
A: Oh.
B: Yeah, and the shallow groundwater is not many analyze, it shows that you know, the water is polluted
or something like that, still people are using, yeah.
A: Yeah, and are you seeing many trends in terms of increased demand for pipe to water to the home or
the government or other donors focusing more on that? Yeah, just curious what changes you might
have seen in that area or not?
B: Yeah, yes, there's the increase of demand because the demographic increase is very high compared
to Europe, we have an average of 2.5. And I think also the standard of life is increasing. In the past,
people need only around 20 liter for per day, per person but now, they have standard in rural area that
is more and more close to the standard in urban area. So they need more water, you know, for that and
also to get even household connection directly in their home, in the past, it was not the case, people are
using public [12:40] but now, demand is to get their own household connection.
A: And what do you think is changing people's attitudes? Is it exposure to greater exposure to, you
know, what's possible based on urban environments? Yeah, what are some of the factors that might be
driving that demand for a better service?
B: I think that more and more people in rural area or even in semi-urban area are willing to have the
same standard with in urban, something that to present, if you go in rural area, you see even in the
housing that you know, they want to get better than that, to improve the living condition, something like
that. And improving the living condition here can result also in getting out.
A: And is there much of a policy drive from government to, yeah, it sounds like there's some bottom up
demand from households, you know, wanting better quality service, I'm just curious if there's also top
down measures, like policy changes that might be driving some of those changes.
B: Yeah, yeah. Some [14:37] because the government has made some reform in the rural sector. In the
past, in the 18 forces, you can get water freely, but setting up the 19th, the government assets as a
politic, people need to be, you know I mean responsible to get the accountability for their, you know,
and the reform introduced in the late 19th was to create as user association for system and the user
association managing the system, if I see system is borehole water tower and the pipe to villages and
this association managing this system and also they propose the tariff for population to pay, but the
tariff was a lift to maintain the system, to buy food, to repair, you know? Yeah, but not the government
are doing the investment with their partners, but they have to pay some money, at the beginning, it was
monthly leave per household, but this scheme was not good for the sustainability of the system. And
they evolved for volume pay, you pay what you withdraw, you use what you use, something like that
and what a meter was implemented even for public tap now to use the water meter and people get to
public water tap to buy water. And if you want to your household connection, you have water meter
and you get your bill every month or every 2 months, something like that. And it was the reform in the
late 19, but after, in the two thousands, a new reform is now coming not completely implemented
because there's some resistance that people want to know to change. When you use association
managing the system, the problem was that they don't have capacity now to repair or even to make a
household connection, there's no technical capacity, yeah, you know, this problem to repair the pipe or
to repair the pump or something like that. And they want now to shift to a private management. So like
in urban area, the state, the ministry contract, some private utilities under they manage the network, so
they have capacity to repair to maintain the system and also they manage the water distribution and
can send bill, get money and to sustain the system. And this form is now currently implemented, but not
in all the country, because you have some resistance so they need to go slowly to convince people, yeah.
A: Yeah, and I was curious, are you expecting it to be a positive change or what are you seeing so far in
terms of schemes that have moved over to the private model?
B: It'll be very hard because you know, in some area, water users very have good management of the
system, so they don't understand why they want to take it again. But in many areas, there’s
mismanagement so they get money don't know what they do with the money is just always problem
with the service so something that, you know, that's why you have always some kind of resistance to,
you know, opposition to shift from what user management to private management, yeah.
A: And do you have any comments on how the model will translate to the more isolated communities?
Is the private model still viable in those circumstances where it might be less viable?
B: I think in urban area, it's very viable. In some rural areas, the problem is, you know, the model when
you don't have many water users, the model is viable because the tariff is, you know, the water costs are
very high, and you cannot distribute it to user so it's a problem, if you get big system with many villages
connected, it is viable. We have only two or three, even villages with population not very low, it's not
viable. So they need subsidized, it's the problem because in some area, the water tariff in rural area is
high compared to the income of rural population. So, it's really a problem. Because the tariff in rural
area is not uniform, you have from 0.3 US dollar cubic matter to the double and 0.6. So it is the range
that they cannot over surface. They need to have the tariff between these elements, this threshold, 0.3
and 0.6, depending of the scale of the system.
A: And that's regulated, it sounds like that tariff lab threshold?
B: Yeah, it is deregulated because you have an agency that manage rural water supply in Senegal. The
name is O-F-O-R. It is like an agency of rural borehole and it is regulated and it is on behalf of the
government, they contract private, yeah, and also they need to monitor if the service is improved or the
service is fail or something like that, and propose some correction.
A: Yeah, okay, so they're starting, their role is moving now into regulation of those private actors, is that
right?
B: Yeah.
A: Okay. Interesting, and you mentioned subsidies, you know, or the need for subsidies for those remote
populations or maybe the ultra poor, how are subsidies managed, if at all are the district level or not a
federal level?
B: Yeah, I mean even in urban area, there's some subsidize in water supply, even in Yuba. Yeah, but in
rural area also, I mean the subsidizes of the investment, those people build borehole, water tower, and
the connection and in isolated area, sometime they build a dug well, or something like that, or a mini
borehole, they call it mini borehole because it's not borrow that top superficial water and the yield is
very low. If for instance you have some fail, like pump or under the population cannot buy or afford to
buy the pump, the government subsidized to buy the pump, yeah, it is something like that but in
general, the subsidize is on the initial investment, and yeah. When the network is not dense in some
area, the government can help in to densify, to increase the pipe, yeah, also to extend the pipe to new
villages to get them, you know, connected to this kind of [27:33], but not paying directly, you know,
waterfall for people.
A: Okay.
B: Yeah.
A: Oh, thank you, I'm learning a lot from what you shared. I was curious with the emergence of private
operators, how is the ownership of the assets, you know, who has owned, I guess the water assets, so
the water towers and the pumps, and who will, who owns them in this new model with private support?
B: Can you repeat again?
A: I'm curious as to who owns the assets, so for example, is it the community who owns the water
towers? Is it the private operator who owns them? And how that asset ownership might have changed
with this, you know, in the old and the new?
B: In water law in Senegal, the asset is ownership of the estate, even if private building, the asset is a
public.
A: Okay.
B: Yeah, this is water, only you can manage it, and if they want to contact a private utilities to manage,
they do appeal such as some kind of call of interest and yeah, it's like a bid and they signed, they
contract the most entity that have the best bid and they contract it because in rural area, just like they
divide the country in five to six area. And in each area, private entities is contracted for each area to
manage all systems that are in this area, because they want them to, you know, if you don't have
enough system enough user, you cannot, it's not viable economically, yeah.
A: It's interesting. So how long has this new approach been in place for?
B: It started around 2012.
A: 2012, okay.
B: Yeah. And so far it's going on but with some difficulties as I said earlier. Yeah, yes, in some area, it's
well working, there's no problem, in other area, you know, population are doing rally to protest against
these entities, these utilities. Also, we are also in the country, this is politically is very motivated, very
active politically. And that's why you can see some political issues about some kind of opposition or
some not agree politically to another leader and lead the protests using the opportunity of some
problem in the service, and you know what I mean?
A: Yes.
B: Yeah, yeah. So sometime you find, so this is kind of an issue, politically motivated but if you get in
depth with the problem, you see that there's no problem.
A: And what is it about Senegal, you know, why have pipe schemes be referenced over hand pumps?
You know, when you look at other examples in Africa, most of the time, its hand pumps is correct.
B: Yes, you don't have many hands pump, hand pump is not very popular in Senegal because perhaps, in
general, we are in sedimentary basis, so aquifers are productive, don't have many problems of that, and
in this area, there's no problem to get high yielding borehole. It is more viable economically and to
supply other villages, you have the system in some central villages and, you supply all the villages in the
reduce, or about five to seven kilometer when you are calculating, but in area where you have basement
truck in the eastern part of the country, you have more hand pump in this area, yeah, in basement area,
because the general shim with the borehole water tower and is no longer working in this area because
the yield of borehole is not is very low. So in this area, you have, let's call it mono village water supply
system. So it is a borehole and a reservoir of five cubic metals and water tap for the villages. There's no
connection to household connection. It’s mostly in the eastern part of the country where you have a
basement.
A: I was curious about what sort of pumps are we talking about? Are you seeing more solar? Are they
typically diesel or is it of mains main supply that these sort of schemes, you know, if I was visiting
Senegal, you know, what sort of pumping systems would I see?
B: Usually, they're using jezel, or connection to the electricity network.
A: The grid, yeah, okay.
B: Yeah, the grid or you know some project in a way, you have solar e energy, you find it mostly in the
basement recently where you have this program, I have visited some program in the eastern part where
you have solar powered pump with a borehole and reservoir in mono village system. I've visited also in
the northern part of the country, near the border with the [36:27], if you have some geography of
Senegal near the river Senegal. It is solar powered system project that was financed by the European
unions, I think, and you have this system also in this area. Yeah, but I don't know, when I visited this
system, they complain about this solar power system because in some time of the day or when in the
rainy season, they don't get water. I don't know if something was wrong in the designing of the system,
when I discuss with some specialist. But they prefer to have a mix, you know, to have a grid or
something if the solar fail, they can use it, use another alternative, another source of energy is
something very [38:05].
A: And you mentioned that in the east, there are quite a few hand pumps; am I right in that the access in
the north is more than in the south or have I got that backwards?
B: Yeah, you have more hand pump in the eastern part of country. Yeah, where you have basement or in
area where you have shallow water supply, you have shallow aquifer. And you have shallow aquifer, you
know, they call it mini borehole, I said, yeah and you can get water with directly, but mainly in the main
part of the Senegal, the mainstream is that, and even is the willingness of the government, the policy of
the government is to get large system. Yeah, it's really the policy of the survey. I recall, we have a
meeting with UNICEF you know, providing manmade borehole and one of the director of the agency
that have in charge water supplies, no, it's a full issue. He told it not diplomatic man, when you have this
reaction or this opinion, you'll see that as the policy of the government to get big system is war, all that
yield is very well have at least in rural area, 50 cubic meter per hour.
A: Wow.
B: And you have tower to hundred cubic meter capacity, and you have pipe to supply villages. The
ranges of seven kilometer, it's really the official seams big. And even in some area, you have bigger. But
it is some advantage that contributes to lower the tariff, and you have big user in it [41:31]. And if the
system is well managed, technically and economically it can be viable.
A: And did I read that access in the south is also a little lower, is that correct?
B: I don't get you?
A: Is water access in the south of the country?
B: Yes, it's low.
A: Yeah, why is that?
B: I think they have same ship like in the northern part of the central part, because of the fact that they
use dug well and dug well is not, you know, I don't know how to do it, because then they'll calculate the
rate of water access, when you are using dug well, it's not like you have access of water. I don't know if
you understand what I mean?
A: Yes.
B: People that using dug well are not considerate that they have access to water. Yes, it's like that
because water dug well are not considered like potable water. So, that's why you know, I think this the
low access in the south of country because I have visited in some area in the south, system is borehole
tower, water towers, but people are not using the word. So usage percent of usage is very low. They
prefer use the dug well, because we know, they have not paid bill also, it's some factor. But if you ask
somebody, the water of the dug well are better, not fresh, yeah, something like that or in some area,
you have the problem of iron. If the iron rate is little bit higher and they give some color of the water
and people don't want to use it because they prefer use dug well, other factor, also element is borehole
tap, you know, very deep [44:35] hundred meter or even more to 200 or 300 meter. And, you know, the
water chemically is have more content like N-A-C-A, et cetera, and compare to shallow water, it's closer
to rain water, so people are feeling that the water of shallow dug well better than water.
A: Okay.
B: Yeah, you have also this kind of reason, perhaps the rate in this area are very low, in the south of the
country.
A: You, you've mentioned as we've been speaking the role of the national government and also the
private operators, is there a district level government, and are they active in water supply at all?
B: No, water supply is managed at central level even we have the decentralized communal entities, but
they have not the power to manage water supply, it is managed centrally, not decentralized like in other
countries.
A: Right. And you also mentioned about some of the regulation that happens I guess, which aspects of
the service, you know, or maybe if you can talk through, what are some of the aspects that are
regulated? Both, I guess the infrastructure so the new schemes but also the service that's actually
delivered.
B: Regulation is in part, for instance, in normally in rural area, you need to have license or authorization
to drain normally, if the capacity, the yield of the borehole is exceeding five cubic meters per hour. If
you exceed the five cubic meters, you need authorization. If it is less, you need you only a declaration is
a declaration regime. And in rural area, in Senegal, it's normally if you have more than 15,000
inhabitant, it is urban and it should be managed by urban agencies, you know, it is in the tax. But in the
fact, you have some localities that have inhabitant exceeding 15,000. They're already considered as rural
area. And even you have one town here in Senegal, it's a religious town where you have 1 million
inhabitants, or considered as a rural area, the water is managed by rural agencies.
A: Wow.
B: Yeah. And better water is free.
A: Oh, fascinating.
B: Some particularity of Senegal, yeah.
A: Oh, that's so interesting. I was curious what you've seen around federal budgets and rural water
spending, if you've got any comments on the adequacy of it at the moment, how it might have changed
with time, et cetera, how, I guess how it might be prioritized through budget?
B: Well, I don't get your question?
A: The national government budget for rural water.
B: For rural water, okay.
A: Yeah. I guess if you've got reflections on that, you know, first of all, does the budget match the
aspirations of the government?
B: I don't think so; I don't have an idea of the budget because most of investments are done by
international partner or multi partner. The last element that I had was around only 20% of investments
are done by the government.
A: Okay.
B: And mostly bilateral or multilateral. I only over participated in a project where the government funds
this project on a hundred percent. It was very surprising for me, I participated in this program, yeah,
they did many borehole and water system, it was in between 2015 and 2017, and I have participated in
some area also to supervise implementation but most of the project are funded by multilateral or
bilateral, it can be a loan, mostly lease, this is loan will be paid as a government or it is something like
what do you call it? Yeah, a grant.
A: And most of the private operators able to operate without any subsidies.
B: Yes. These difficulties in some area but they are operating without subsidize, but yeah, under in most
of this entities or utilities, most of them have some difficulties to manage the system. Because I think
there is a initial issues that was not resolved when they were contacted by the governor, because before
contacting, the government should repair or rehabilitate all of the network, most of the network were in
very bad condition. So they need to rehabilitate it to this network or to rebuild the network. The
government did not do so; they get most networks that are not working well. So, they're doing their
best, but some kind of work.
A: Oh actually, I won't put words in your mouth, but who's responsible for the operation and
maintenance, day to day?
B: In the rural area, normally population, they support the budget of the maintenance and of the
system, they normally need to pay for maintenance but it can be some cases or they cannot afford to do
that. And then, the government can help to solve this kind of problem. Mostly, if for instance, you know,
you have some rally, you have the radio or television moving of the issue, so it's as small, it is very
sensitive politically and the government direct to solve the problem, yeah, but normally to maintain the
system or to buy fuel or to pay the bill of the grid population should do through the association of users
or through the private utilities that manages the ship.
A: Makes sense. Almost through all the questions, we've answered a lot, just without needing to ask
them to. Is there a particular plan or strategy, maybe ask this question differently but how is it decided
where new schemes or new connections are implemented in terms of regions, et cetera? Is there a
national plan for such or is it a [56:14] of donors?
B: Normally, they have a map of where you have this water system and where you have some deficit of
this. Technically, the ministry are doing plan where to what you have priority or not, but the technician
have the decision. The decision lies on political leader. So you have some kind of political motivation to
decide where to put the system, to implement the system so you have it.
A: Yeah.
B: I witness many of these kinds and you see perhaps you have area where they need to better, I mean
they need to mostly to have get it, but you see in another area, you have some politically motivated
decision like this, you know, politician cannot do.
A: Great. And is there any segment of the populations who are harder to reach for whatever reason you
know, are less likely to receive a piped water supply than others due to geography or other reasons?
B: Yeah, mostly in the rural area, often, sometime I think it is an issue to get household connection if it is
managed by this private entity because you have to pay for the household connection. In average, it's
around a hundred dollars.
A: Okay, wow.
B: Yeah, to get this connection. Before the private entities, utilities are managing with user association,
the price is lower, but the quality of connection is very bad because they don't have a televised
technician to get the connection so you can have even $10 and you have the correction, so there's still
many problem with water loss or something like that, but now with the private, the price is around
hundred bucks, it's not uniform, you have in other area, less or more to compare, for instance, in urban
area, it is 200 euro get the household connection. And in many poor districts, the government or the
partner are subsidizing the household connection. Yeah, and I think that's like is luck in your rural area
to subsidize the household connection, like in urban area. And I think the local government can invest
this sector when we do some meeting with them, you commend them to subsidize a household
connection for poor people and because they have budget for to [1:01:04] but it's not common in rural
area to subsidize household connection and it is a meeting.
A: Did I hear that correctly? You said, so the local government would be the one advocating for subsidies
in a particular area, is that correct?
B: I mean local government should, they have the budget for to subsidize, but usually they did not so.
A: Okay.
B: Yeah. Most of them are not subsidizing, they use the budget in for instance, for sport, you know, it's
politically, but I think it is something that needs to be done.
A: That's great, thank you so much, we just hit one hour, there was just a word that you used a few
times, I wanted to clarify, it sounded like besman?
B: Bessman yeah, it's in the area where you don't have sedimentary layers.
A: Okay.
B: Yeah. You have hard rock like granite or something like that.
A: Got it.
B: In this area, aquifers are not too continuous and as far not, well yielding, it's really a problem to get
ground water in this area.
A: Okay, got it, thank you. That's fantastic, thank you so much, I learned so much, I went from about this
much of knowing Senegal's water situation to quite a bit, it was really helpful.
B Thank you.
A: Yeah, so look, we'll finish here and as I said, if you're interested in, you know, what others are sharing
when we finalize the draft report, I'd be very happy to share the findings with you but yeah, you've
really added a lot and so thank you so much for being so generous with your time and your knowledge, I
really appreciated it.
B: Thank you, no problem.
A: Yeah.
B: Okay.
A: So enjoy the rest of your day, yeah.
B: Okay, thank you and have a nice evening in Australia.
A: I will, yeah. Have you visited before or no?
B: No, never.
A: Okay
B: I have never been in Australia, only South Africa I mean, the closest I was to Australia.
A: Good. Okay. Thanks again. Take care.
B: Okay. Bye.
A: Bye.