jagoda buić

Uranjanje u
ishodište mita
jagoda buić

Immersion Into the

Origin of the Myth
razgovarala
interviewed by 

fotografije photographs by
Vera Grimmer portreti portraits
Arhiva / Archive Jagoda Buić (jb); Vedran Benović, Srećko Budek - Muzej za umjetnost i obrt /
Museum of Arts and Crafts (bb); Damir Fabijanić (df); Ante Verzotti (av);
Ljubaznošću Odsjeka za povijest hrvatskoga kazališta hazu / Courtesy of the Department of
History of Croatian Theater hazu (Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts) (pk)
Damil Kalogjera

Razgovarali u Dubrovniku 15. rujna 2015. Interviewed in Dubrovnik on 15 September 2015

¶ Grande dame hrvatske i europske likovne scene, Jagoda
Buić, od početaka svog rada do danas teži osvajanju novih
područja kako u kostimografiji i scenografiji tako prije svega
i u umjetnosti tapiserije. Ona je tapiseriju oslobodila dvo-
dimenzionalnosti i dala joj značenje skulpture. Njene tapi-
serije, izlagane u važnim europskim i američkim muzejima,
posjeduju primarne, arhetipske kvalitete, vjerojatno i zbog
povezanosti s radom tradicionalnih tkalji iz ruralnih sredina.
Najjačim formativnim utjecajem sama smatra zagrebačku
umjetničku scenu kasnih 50-ih i 60-ih godina – vrijeme
neobično živog i kreativnog procvata na različitim poljima
od likovne umjetnosti do teatra i arhitekture.
¶ The Grande damme of the Croatian and European visual art
scene, Jagoda Buić has aspired to conquering new fields since
the beginning of her work until present time, in costume design
and scenography, as well as primarily, in the art of tapestry. She
has freed tapestry from two-dimensional aspect and bestowed
it with the meaning of sculpture. Her tapestries, exhibited in
significant European and American museums possess primary,
archetypal qualities, which is also probably because of their
connectedness with the work of traditional weavers from rural
areas. She believes that the strongest formative influence was
Zagreb’s art scene of the late 1950s and 1960s, a time of unu-
sually vibrant and creative blossoming in different fields, from
visual arts to theatre and architecture.

168 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 169

ORIS — Intervju bih započela jednim dojmljivim citatom
Tonka Maroevića: Režiseri su se obraćali Jagodi Buić kad je
trebalo evocirati epsku prošlost, elementarne grčke prizore,
keltske ili slavenske priče, kad je trebalo uroniti u ishodište
mita, zagrabiti s izvora i ukazati na ono primarno, prvotno.
¶ jagoda buić — Podsjetili ste me na vrijeme kada sam kao
vrlo mlada imala sreću raditi repertoar mitske prirode – stje-
cajem okolnosti na festivalima s klasičnim repertoarom – što
je pogodovalo mom afinitetu prema kretanju od izvora. To
me zapravo karakterizira u svakom radu. U najbanalnijem
crtežu volim doći do dna, raditi kao da ničega nije bilo prije.
Kad mislim o Grcima, uvijek pomislim koliko su bili genijalni,
jer prije njih nije bilo Grka. Ima jedan prekrasan citat Jure
Kaštelana koji je godinama bio moto svih mojih nastojanja. I
Tonko i Jure bili su moji bliski prijatelji, potekli s istog terena,
iste zemlje i kamena. Vrlo sam ponosna da su obojica znali to
prepoznati u meni.
ORIS — Ovaj labirint, mračan od svjetlosti, ruka koja ostavlja
zapis pretvarajući vrijeme u oblik. Ovaj citat Jure Kaštelana
također ukazuje na osobitosti i na primarnost Vašeg rada.
¶ jagoda buić — Kaštelan me tim tekstom unaprijed odre-
dio. Jako sam ponosna da sam mogla inspirirati takav stih.
Gaudi me potaknuo jednim svojim citatom: Ako hoćeš biti
izvoran, vrati se izvorima. Ne postoji internacionalni umjetnik,
170 oris, broj 96, godina 2015.
ORIS — I would like to start the interview with an impressive
quote by Tonko Maroević: Directors used to come to Jagoda
Buić when the epic past, elementary Greek scenes, Celtic
or Slavic stories were to be evoked, when the origin of the
myth, taken from the source, was to be explored and when
the elementary or original was to be presented. ¶ jagoda
buić — You reminded me of the time when I was very young
and lucky to work with the mythical repertoire and, by force
of circumstances, classical repertoire of festivals, which was in
accord with my inclination towards starting from the source. It
actually defines me in every work. In the most basic drawing I
like to get to the core, to work as if there were nothing before.
When I think of the Greeks, I always think how brilliant they
were because there were no Greeks before them. There is a
beautiful quote by Jure Kaštelan which was the motto of all my
efforts for years. Tonko and Jure were both my close friends,
they came from the same land, the same soil and stone. I am
very proud that they both saw it in me.
ORIS — This labyrinth, dark form the light, the hand which
documents by turning time into a shape. This quote by Jure
Kaštelan also illustrates the distinctive features and basic
elements of your work. ¶ jagoda buić — With this text
Kaštelan defined me in advance. I am very proud to have
inspired him to write such a line. Gaudi encouraged me with
oris, number 96, year 2015
svaki je umjetnik potekao iz svoga terena, ima korijene u svojoj
zemlji i ti će ga korijeni oformiti. Međutim, on će se nekim dru-
gim svojim svojstvima staviti u kontekst koji je međunarodno
značajan. Rano sam shvatila da francuska moderna tapiserija
ni po čemu nije moderna osim što kopira moderno slikarstvo.
Tada je Marie Cuttoli bila prva, priznat je bio i Jean Lurçat, cijela
jedna sjajna ekipa koja je imala velike privilegije. Francuzi nisu
htjeli odustati od svoje tradicije koju su preuzeli od Flamanaca
i ulagali su velika sredstva u atelje u Aubussonu i Gobelins u
Parizu. Ne može se jednim likovnim sredstvom prezentirati
neki drugi likovni događaj, a to znači da nešto što je tkano ne
može biti prezentirano slikom. Tkanje ima svoju materijanu
podsvijest i svoju strukturiranu svijest.
ORIS — Napravili ste iskorak u razvoju tapiserije, otvorili
ste neke nove poglede i metode. Ustvari oslobodili ste tapi-
seriju plošnosti i prenijeli je u trodimenzionalnu strukturu.
Možete li možda naći neke paralele iz toga doba kada ste
Vi to radili istodobno s poljskom umjetnicom Magdalenom
Abakanowicz ne znajući jedna za drugu? Iako mislim da je
ona po umjetničkoj ekspresiji potpuno drugačija od Vaše kre-
ativnosti. ¶ jagoda buić — Ona i ja smo počele zajedno,
to su oni sretni trenutci kad se inovatori nađu kao prijatelji
uz čašu vina i vjeruju u svoje ideale. Tu je bila i grupa Čeha;
naravno da je među Poljacima najistaknutija bila Magdalena
Abakanowicz s kojom sam u nekoliko navrata i izlagala. To
su oni zlatni veseli počeci puni entuzijazma. To se u svijetu
zvalo Slavenski val, a na vrhu njega bile smo Magdalena i ja,
koje smo poslije svaka krenule svojim individualnim putem,
ali smo se u istom trenutku zaista našle na čelu avangarde i
to je urodilo lijepim prijateljstvom. Ona je apsolutno dostojna
svoje poljske nacije koja je iza nje stajala u punom smislu te
riječi, što se ne bi moglo reći za mene. Kako Francuzi nisu
htjeli izgubiti svoj prestiž u modermoj tapiseriji – makar se i
ne slagali – dali su mi mogućnost da imam svoj atelje, svoju
školu za mlade studente, da izlažem u francuskim muzejima,
a počelo je to s Muzejom grada Pariza 1975. godine. Tada
sam prvi put izložila svoje ambijentalne kompozicije. Iza sebe
sam imala dosta dugo iskustvo scenografije na otvorenim
prostorima pa sam kreirala taj novi prostorni koncept kojem
sam težila.
ORIS — Može se reći da Vaši skulpturalni tapiserijski ambi-
jenti pomalo u toj svojoj arhetipičnosti i svečanosti gotovo
podsjećaju na antički teatar i nije, kao što ste već rekli, slu-
čajno da je Vaš život u teatru vezan za antiku. Ako smijem
izreći svoje osobno iskustvo, još mi je uvijek u sjećanju, kao
jedan od najsnažnijih teatarskih doživljaja, predstava Edip iz
1964. u gradskom dramskom kazalištu Gavella od 1970., u
jagoda buić, Intervju
Nikad nisam radila kostime,
radila sam likove. Mene zanima
čovjek u tom kostimu. Nekad
glumac ponese kostim, a češće
kostim ponese glumca
I have never designed costumes, I have
created characters. I’m interested in
the person in costume. Sometimes the
actor wears the costume and, more
often, the costume wears the actor
his words: If you want to be original, return to your sources.
There is no international artist; every artist comes from his
land and has roots in the country that has shaped him. He
will, however, place himself in an internationally significant
context using some other instruments. I realised early on that
French modern tapestry had no modern qualities other than
the fact that they copied modern painting. Marie Cuttoli was
the first, Jean Lurçat was also important: an entire brilliant
team that had great privileges. The French did not want to
break with the tradition they had taken over from the Flemish
and they invested a lot of money in the studio in Aubusson
and Gobelins School in Paris. A means of art cannot be used to
present another art form, which means that something that is
woven cannot be presented by painting. Fabric has its material
subconsciousness and structured consciousness.
ORIS — You have made a breakthrough in the development
of tapestry and presented some new views and methods.
You have actually freed tapestry of its flatness and trans-
formed it into a three-dimensional structure. Can you maybe
draw some parallels from the period when you were creating
simultaneously with the Polish artist Magdalena Abakano-
wicz, when neither of you knew of each other’s existence?
I think that her art expression is completely different from
your creative work, though. ¶ jagoda buić — We began
jagoda buić, Interview 171
Sofoklo, Kralj Edip,
Gradsko dramsko
kazalište Gavella,
Zagreb, redatelj
Dino Radojević,
kostimografkinja
Jagoda Buić, 1963.
Sophocles, Oedipus
the King, Gavella
Drama Theatre,
Zagreb, directed
by Dino Radojević,
costume design by
Jagoda Buić, 1963
(jb)
režiji Dine Radojevića, gdje su Vaši kostimi bili itekako nosi-
telj predstave, uz one prekrasne glumce na pozornici (Tonko
Lonza kao Edip i Vjera Žagar Nardelli kao Jokasta). Kostimi
su podsjećali na arhajske figure s naborima, onda kada ljud-
ska figura izlazi iz stupa i postaje čovjek. Ali, također, sud-
bina likova već je bila predodređena i kolorizmom. ¶ jagoda
buić — Vrlo ste me, mogu reći, potresli vašim sjećanjem na
Edipa u dramskom kazalištu čega se ja više gotovo ne sjećam
i jako mi je drago vidjeti da je to ostalo u sjećanju. Znači nisam
radila uzalud. Znate, u teatru čovjek uvijek ima osjećaj da je sve
tako efemerno. Kad bi se zastor spustio nakon premijere, uvijek
bih došla vrlo žalosna na praznu scenu te bih pred otvorenim
zastorom i pred praznim gledalištem rekla: Tako, završila se
još jedna euforija. Zatvorio se još jedan krug. Never more!
Nikad nisam radila kostime, radila sam likove. Mene zanima
čovjek u tom kostimu. Nekad glumac ponese kostim, a češće
kostim ponese glumca. Primjer toga bili su kostimi za pred-
stavu Hamlet na Lovrijencu 1974. g. Imala sam, moram reći,
puno hrabrosti, da si prvi put u teatru priuštimo luksuz da
glumci na sebi nose rukom tkane kostime. To su radile moje
tkalje na Pešterskoj visoravni, u Sjenici. Glumce sam pustila
da hodaju bosi po toplom kamenu. Bili su gotovo bez šminke,
da se ne bi pokvarilo sunce na licima. To je bio jedan izuzetno
172 oris, broj 96, godina 2015.
(pk)
together; those were the happy times when innovators used
to meet as friends and shared their beliefs over a glass of wine.
There was also a group of Czechs and Magdalena Abakanow-
icz was, naturally, the most distinguished among the Polish.
I used to exhibit my work with her – there were those happy
beginnings full of enthusiasm, the period called the Slavic
wave in the world. Magdalena and I were on top, at the same
time we were at the head of the avant-garde, which resulted
in a warm friendship. Later on, each of us followed our own
path. She is absolutely worthy of the acclaim of the Polish
nation. They stood behind her in the full sense of the word,
which cannot be said about me. The French did not want to
lose their prestige in modern tapestry and, even though they
disagreed with me, they gave me the opportunity to have my
own studio, school for young students and to hold exhibitions
in French museums. This started in the Museum of the City of
Paris in 1975, when I exhibited my ambient compositions for
the first time. I had long experience of stage design in open
spaces so I designed this new spatial concept I had always
aspired to create.
ORIS — It can be said that your sculptural tapestry atmos-
pheres, archetypical and solemn, almost remind us of
the ancient theatre and, as you have mentioned, it is not
oris, number 96, year 2015
lijepi eksperiment koji se više nije ponovio. Danas su ti kostimi
– našla sam ih negdje na dnu magazina Ljetnih igara – zabo-
ravljeni. No, spasila sam ih i sada su razasuti po muzejima.
Jedan u Salzburgu, Veneciji itd.
ORIS — Spomenuli ste prelje sa Sandžaka. Bio je to jedan vrlo
specifičan način rada kojem ste Vi pristupili. Je li u toj suradnji
bilo izvjesne uzajamnosti u smislu inovacije u tehnici tkanja?
¶ jagoda buić — U prvom redu, one su tkale kao njihove
prabake. Počele su tkati s 8 godina. Tkale su cijelu mladost,
u vrijeme kad sam ja učila svirati klavir. Kad smo se zajedno
našle dogodio se jedan sretan sraz. Ja sam vjerovala njima, a
one meni. I to je potpuno neopterećeno, s puno ljubavi i entu-
zijazma, dovelo do uzbudljivih rezultata. Pešterska visoravan
nalazi se na tromeđi između Bosne, Srbije i Crne Gore. Kako
bi se to lijepo reklo: In the middle of nowhere. Jednako je sati
potrebno iz Sarajeva, Dubrovnika i Beograda da bi se došlo do
tamo. Ja sam se devet sati drndala u autobusima s košarama
i kokošima nad glavom. S njima sam radila na 20 stupnjeva
ispod nule. Crtala sam na ledu jer lakše je crtati na ledu nego
na snijegu. To je ipak dovelo do vrlo lijepih rezultata koji su
nažalost u vihoru ovog prošlog rata nestali. S nekima od tkalja
još sam uvijek u kontaktu i vrlo sam im zahvalna. Nakon moje
avanture u tapiseriji i tkanju prešla sam u novi medij – papir.
Papir je pametan, podatan, svejedno je li kutija od ambalaže
ili najfiniji japanski papir.
ORIS — Svoje radove na papiru pokazali ste u Zagrebu u Glip-
toteci 2008., a izložba je nosila naziv Carta canta. ¶ jagoda
buić — Prvo je bila u Sarajevu u Skenderiji, pa je onda došla
u Gliptoteku. Izuzetno lijepi prostori u Gliptoteci dali su mi
hrabrost i impuls da nastavim. Za mene je to bio eksperiment,
ali kada sam ušla u dijalog s tim prostorom onda se taj dijalog
nastavio i u drugim prostorima. Sada sam u svom ateljeu u Pro-
vansi ostavila pet kolaža velikog formata vezanih za teme koje
me bole. Jedan kolaž zove se Lampedusa, drugi Migracija, treći
se zove Bijeg i još jedan se zove Zmaj, vezano za tehniku kojom
djeca prave zmajeve. Naravno, čovjek se ne može odvojiti od
onoga što se oko njega događa i što ga dira. Ako ima dušu i
srce ne mogu ga ne dirnuti te ruke koje se pružaju iz vode koja
tako indiferentno preko njih prelazi.
ORIS — Školovali ste se na Akademiji za primijenjenu umjet-
nost u Beču. Kako vidite odnos između primijenjene i tzv.
čiste umjetnosti? ¶ jagoda buić — Ja sam đak u to vrijeme
slavnog profesora Otta Niedermosera na Odjelu za interijer.
Tada se vodio rat između studenata na Schillerplatzu 8 (Aka-
demija likovnih umjetnosti) i Stubenringu 2 (Akademija za
primijenjenu umjetnost). To je bio rat i diskusija. Umjetnost
je umjetnost. Nema primijenjene i neprimijenjene. Samo što
jagoda buić, Intervju
William
Shakespeare,
Hamlet,
Dubrovačke ljetne
igre, redatelj
Dino Radojević,
kostimografkinja
Jagoda Buić, 1974.
William
Shakespeare,
Hamlet, Dubrovnik
Summer Festival,
directed by
Dino Radojević,
costume design by
Jagoda Buić, 1974
(jb)
accidental that your life in the theatre is connected with
antiquity. If I may, I would like to share one of my most pow-
erful theatrical experiences with you – I still remember the
play Oedipus the King at the Zagreb Drama Theatre1 in 1964,
and directed by Dino Radojević. Your costumes carried the
play and there were these beautiful actors on stage (Tonko
Lonza as Oedipus and Vjera Žagar Nardelli as Jocasta). The
costumes evoked archaic representations of human figures
– the figures would resemble columns and afterwards they
would take human forms. Also, the colours defined the des-
tiny of the characters. ¶ jagoda buić — Your words about
the Oedipus in the Drama Theatre have moved me because I
don’t remember the play anymore and I’m very happy to hear
that it has remained etched in your memory. It means that I
haven’t been working in vain. When you work in the theatre,
you always have the feeling that everything is so ephemeral.
When the curtain came down after the premiere, I always
approached the empty stage in front of the curtain, look at
the empty seats and say: Yet another wave of euphoria has
died down. Another cycle has finished. Never more! I have
never designed costumes, I have always created characters.
1 Gavella Drama Theatre since 1970
jagoda buić, Interview 173
 Pešterska
visoravan,
Srbija, 1970.
Pešter
Plateau,
Serbia, 1970
(jb)
je primijenjena umjetnost, ako želi biti umjetnost, u težem
položaju nego ova takozvana slobodna, zato što ona mora
poštovati zakonitosti praktične primjene.
ORIS — Govorimo o procesu Vaše edukacije koji je de facto
počeo u Zagrebu, ali ustvari i puno prije. Počeo je u Vašoj
roditeljskoj kući gdje ste imali priliku susresti se s glazbenom
i likovnom umjetnošću. Zatim u Zagrebu na Akademiji primi-
jenjene umjetnosti. ¶ jagoda buić — Proces moje edukacije
bio je, naravno, vrlo uzbudljiv. Educirana sam od austrijske i
francuske guvernante, baleta, škole, poduke u klaviru, dakle
od svega onog što čini jedno idilično djetinjstvo. Tada smo
174 oris, broj 96, godina 2015.
I’m interested in the human figure in costume. Sometimes the
actor wears the costume and, more often, the costume wears
the actor. For example, the costumes for Hamlet, which was
performed at Fort Lovrijenac in 1974, can illustrate this well. I
have to say that it was really brave of me to ask of the theatre
to afford the luxury of hand-woven costumes for the actors.
My weavers on the Pešter Plateau, in the Sjenica area, cre-
ated them. The actors were barefoot on warm stones. They
wore almost no make-up so the sun on their faces remained
unspoilt. It was an extremely nice experiment that was never
carried out again. These costumes are forgotten today; I found
oris, number 96, year 2015
stanovali na splitskoj rivi. Taj lijepi ambijent sa slikama hrvat-
ske moderne koje su mom ocu bile poklanjane s ljubavlju
bio je u kući Katalinić na splitskom lukobranu. Jednog dana
zatresao se svijet pred našim prozorima, pale su bombe i
kada sam otvorila oči bio je Drugi svjetski rat, bilo je to 6.
travnja 1941. Moja edukacija je išla kroz Drugi svjetski rat
kada sam se suočila sa životom, sa smrću, s pravim stvarima
i s neumitnim vrijednostima koje se vjerojatno odražavaju na
ono mitsko o čemu smo razgovarali. Edukacija nije bila škol-
ska koliko je nastajala u životnoj opasnosti. U našoj kući za
vrijeme policijskog sata igrali su se Glembajevi. Moja mama
jagoda buić, Intervju
Ja sam proizvod tog Zagreba iz
kasnih 50-ih i 60-ih. Imala sam
izuzetnu sreću da u tome
sudjelujem kao đak i suradnik
I was thus a product of such Zagreb
in the late 1950s and 1960s; I was
very fortunate to participate in this
life as a student and an associate
them at the bottom of the storehouse of the Dubrovnik Sum- Zajednički rad
na tapiseriji Crni
mer Festival. I saved them and now they are exhibited in vari-
strukturirani
ous museums – in Salzburg, Venice, etc. volumen, Pešterska
ORIS — You have mentioned weavers from the Sandžak visoravan, Srbija,
1970.
region. It was a very specific method of work you decided to
employ. Was there any conscious exchange of ideas, regard- Collective work on
ing the innovations in the weaving technique? ¶ jagoda the Black Structured
Volume tapestry,
buić — First, they used to weave like their grandmothers.
Pešter plateau,
They began weaving when they were eight. At the time when Serbia, 1970
I was learning how to play the piano, they had already spent
(jb)
their whole youth weaving. When we met, we were a winning
combination. I believed them and they believed me. With a lot
of love and enthusiasm and under no pressure our coopera-
tion produced exciting results. The Pešter Plateau is situated
between Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro; in the middle of
nowhere, figuratively speaking. It takes the same amount
of time to reach it from Sarajevo, Dubrovnik and Belgrade.
I used to travel for nine hours by bus – with baskets and
chickens over my head – to reach them and work with them
at 20 degrees below zero. I used to draw on ice because it
was easier to draw on ice than on snow. We achieved some
beautiful results which, unfortunately, disappeared in the
horrors of the last war. I still keep in touch with some of the
weavers and am very grateful to them. After my adventure
with the tapestry and weaving, I found a new medium –
paper. Paper is smart and supple, whether it is just a box or
the finest Japanese paper.
jagoda buić, Interview 175
 je i dalje imala svoga Leopardija na noćnom ormariću i dalje
se po Danteu računalo vrijeme. Fašisti u crnim košuljama
tražili su i od mene da pozdravim romanamente, a ja nisam.
Vratili su me natrag i zatražili ponovno, no ja nisam digla
ruku. Nakon što sam treći put odbila, izbacili su me iz svih
škola. Nisam bila svjesna da bi mi oca mogli strijeljati, jer
je meni tada bio važniji moj ponos nego opasnost. Onda je
došlo oslobođenje i svi smo bili jako sretni. Tada mi je direk-
torica škole u uniformi jednog dana rekla: Slušaj ti, Buić, ti
nisi upisana u Savez omladine. Ja kažem: Je li to dobrovoljno?
Ona kaže: Naravno! Sloboda, dobrovoljno… Ja kažem: Vidite,
onda sam Vam ja jedina mogućnost da dokažete da je to
dobrovoljno. I onda opet van iz svih škola. Tako sam dospjela
u Dubrovnik. Dolazila sam jednim drugim vjetrom, iz drugog
grada i slobodnijeg mentaliteta. Vjerojatno je to zračilo iz
mog nastupa i uvjetovalo moj školski uspjeh. Moja nepot-
puna edukacija upotpunila se time što sam donosila nešto
na svojim krilima čega tamo gdje sam doletila još nije bilo. U
Dubrovnik sam došla iz Splita, a u Beč iz Rima koji je 50-ih
godina bio centar zbivanja.
ORIS — To je bilo zapravo zlatno doba. Godine 1951. Fellini
radi film I Vitelloni, 1953. La Stradu. ¶ jagoda buić — Tako
je. Ja sam ga gledala u kavanama. I prema tome sam u Beč na
krilima donijela taj vjetar.
ORIS — Je li taj bečki milje, kad ste studirali, bio u neku ruku
za vas poticajan? Tada je, što se teatra tiče, bilo podrumskih,
tzv. Kellertheatera, dok je Burgtheater još bio dosta zapra-
šen; tek se zapravo 80-ih godina dolaskom Clausa Peymanna
teatar oslobodio i postao avangardan i moderan. ¶ jagoda
buić — Tada je Friedrich Gulda, svjetski pijanist, svake večeri
svirao u jednom malom lokalu koji se zvao Strohkoffer.
ORIS — Strohkoffer je tada bio sastajalište avangarde.
¶ jagoda buić — Da, išli smo u Strohkoffer svaku večer, ORIS — You presented your works in paper at the exhibition Migracije, 2015.,
da bih paralelno sa Strohkofferom prisustvovala koncertima titled Carta canta organised at the Glyptotheque of Zagreb kolaž, detalj

koje su Karajan i Furtwängler, u svojoj svemirskoj svađi, svirali
u razmaku od 15 dana, isti repertoar. Svi moji kolege dolazili
su s partiturama. Ja ne, ja sam to po splitski, bez partitura.
Jedne večeri imala sam u džepu tek jedan šiling pa je trebalo
birati hoću li pojesti Gulaschsuppe ili ići u Brahms-Saal. I u
tom prostoru s najboljom akustikom u Beču tada je zazvučao
bas mladog Čangalovića. To je bilo vrijeme prave edukacije!
ORIS — Da se još vratimo na tapiseriju. Kako se određujete
prema rodnoj definiciji tapiserije u smislu da ona po svojoj
mekoći i gipkosti predstavlja žensko počelo? Tradicija kazuje
da Arijadnina nit spašava Tezeja, Penelopa tka i oblaže svoju
in 2008. ¶ jagoda buić — They were first exhibited at the Migrations, 2015.,
Skenderija Centre in Sarajevo. The rooms in the Glyptotheque collage, detail
that are extremely beautiful gave me the courage and impulse
(jb)
to carry on. It was an experiment for me, but when I engaged in
a dialogue with the rooms, it also continued elsewhere. I have
just left five huge collages at my studio in Provence, which
are related to the topics that affect me. One collage is called
Lampedusa, another Migration, then Escape, and finally Dragon
which refers to the technique children use when they make
dragons. It is not possible to distance yourself from the events Ruža vjetrova, Split,
around you; they have to affect you. If you have a heart and Hrvatska, 1987.

bračnu postelju, Parke predu sudbinu itd. Je li Vam bliska a soul, you cannot remain unaffected by the scenes of hands The Wind Rose, Split,
(jb) ta ženska određenost tapiserijske umjetnosti? ¶ jagoda reaching out of water that overwhelms them so callously. Croatia, 1987

176 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 177
 ORIS — You went to the Academy of Applied Arts in Vienna.
What is your view on the relation between applied and so-
called pure art? ¶ jagoda buić — I was a student of the then
famous professor Otto Niedermoser at the Department of
Interior Design. Back then there was a war between students
from Schillerplatz 8 (Academy of Fine Arts) and Stubenring 2
(Academy of Applied Arts). It was a war and discussion. Art is
art. There is no applied or non-applied art. Applied art is, of
course, in a far more difficult position than this so-called free
art because it has to obey the rules of practical application.
ORIS — We have been talking about the process of your
education which, in fact, started in Zagreb, but had actually
begun much earlier. It began in your parents’ home, where
you had the opportunity to come into contact with music and
art. Then it continued in Zagreb, at the Academy of Applied
Arts. ¶ jagoda buić — The process of my education was, of
course, very exciting. I had Austrian and French governesses,
took ballet and piano lessons, went to school… I had an idyl-
lic childhood. Back then we lived at the Riva waterfront in
the city of Split. A pleasant ambience, which was created by
the paintings from the Croatian Modernism that had been
given to my father with love, dominated the Katalinić house
at the pier of the city of Split. Then, one day, the world shook
before our eyes, the bombs fell and when I opened my eyes,
there was the Second World War; it began on 6th April 1941.
I actually received education during the Second World War
– when I was faced with life, death, real problems and indis-
putable values, which are probably reflected in the mythical
that we have already discussed. My education continued in
life-threatening circumstances. The play Glembajevi was per-
formed during the curfew. My mother still had her Leopardi
on her bedside table and time was set by Dante. The fascist
Blackshirts told me to salute romanamente but I did not do
it. They told me again to do it, but I never raised my hand.
After I had rejected to raise my hand for the third time, they
expelled me from all schools. I was not aware of the fact that
my father could have been shot – back then my pride was
more important to me than imminent danger. Then libera-
tion came and we were all exhilarated. One day the school
Strukturalni triptih,
1965., tapiserija
buić — Nema nikakve sumnje, neka su zanimanja vezana uz manager told me: Listen, Buić girl, you are not registered with A sve ideologije, misli i velike All the ideologies could only have been 49. Venecijanski
bijenale, Venecija,
žensko biće. Postoje trajanja koja su vezana za žensku sudbinu the Young Socialist League of Yugoslavia. I asked her: Is it
Structural Triptych, i nije nimalo čudno da je tkanje koje je vezano za ognjište imalo voluntary? She replied: Of course! Then I said: I am your only aktivnosti išle su samo uz developed, expressed and carried out Italija, 2001.

1965, tapestry i svoje trajanje koje isto pripada ženskoj sudbini. opportunity to prove it then. And I was expelled again from all otpor, jer se tada razvijala with resistance because back then the 49th Venice
Biennial, Venice,
ORIS — Zagreb je 50-ih i 60-ih godina imao živu avangar- schools and came to Dubrovnik. I came with a different wind,
(bb)
dnu scenu, kako u teatru tako i u drugim umjetnostima. U from a different town and a more open mentality. It was prob- nužna energija da nešto postane necessary energy was generated to Italy, 2001

60-tim godinama dolazi do osuvremenjivanja klasika, isto ably evident in my approach and it resulted in my success in i intelektualno i stvarno make something intellectual and real (df)
tako kostimima i scenografijama, kao i režijom. To je doba school. My incomplete education was always supplemented

178 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 179
Ranjeni golub II., velikih redatelja, počevši od Gavelle do njegovih učenika –
1983., tapiserija,
Spaića, Škiljana, Radojevića, Violića, Para itd. Doba avangarde
detalj
i u likovnoj umjetnosti i arhitekturi, osobito se to odnosilo
Wounded Dove na grupu Exat 51, koja je svojom integrativnom misli sigurno
II, 1983, tapestry,
privukla i Vašu pažnju. ¶ jagoda buić — Nije samo privukla
detail
pažnju, nego sam bila i dio tih događanja. Ne mogu reći da sam
(bb) sudjelovala u brainstormu kad su Radić i Richter lomili koplja
by something new I would bring to the environment I arrived
in. I came to Dubrovnik from Split, to Vienna from Rome,
which was the centre of activities in the 1950s.
ORIS — It was a golden age. In 1951 Fellini made I Vitelloni
and he made La Strada in 1953. ¶ jagoda buić — That’s
right. I have seen Fellini in cafes. Therefore, I brought this new
wind to Vienna with me.
diskutirajući najopasnije i najuzvišenije probleme suvremene
arhitekture i filozofije, s Bernardijem i Kristlom. Svim tim raz-
govorima bila sam prisutna više kao slušatelj i maskota. Cijeli
taj Zagreb kasnih 50-ih i 60-ih bio je čista sreća. To je bilo
kristaliziranje jedne kulturne sredine koja je procvala poslije
Drugog svjetskog rata na najbolji mogući način. Ne zato što je
bila na nivou čitave Europe, već zato što je po svojoj solidnosti
ORIS — Was this milieu in Vienna stimulating for you when Crveni volumeni,
1980., tapiserija
you were a student? Back then there were basement theatres,
so-called Kellertheater, and the Burgtheater was still rather Red Volumes,
dusty – only in the 1980s, when Claus Peymann arrived, 1980, tapestry
theatre became free and avant-garde and modern. ¶ jagoda
(bb)
buić — Friedrich Gulda, a world-famous pianist, used to play
every night in a small club called Strohkoffer.

180 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 181
 Ne može se jednim likovnim
sredstvom prezentirati neki
drugi likovni događaj, a to znači
da nešto što je tkano ne može biti
prezentirano slikom
A means of art cannot be
used to present another art
form, which means that
something that is woven cannot
be presented by painting
i klasičnoj naobrazbi, po ljudima koji su bili izuzetno pametni,
kao što su Richter, Bernardi, Radić i to društvo, bila na vrhu. Isto
se događalo u teatru, djelovanje ove grupe redatelja koje ste
spomenuli. Dakle, ja sam proizvod tog Zagreba. Naravno, imala
sam izuzetnu sreću da u tome sudjelujem kao đak i suradnik.
ORIS — I muza. ¶ jagoda buić — Kadikad.
ORIS — Neka vrsta moderne Cvijete Zuzorić. ¶ jagoda
buić — Zamislite, skoro imate pravo, mene su u gimnaziji u
Dubrovniku zvali Cvijeta. Dakle, na našoj Akademiji za primi-
jenjenu umjetnost profesori su bili Radovani, Richter, Branka
Hegedušić, Tomašević. To je jedna ekipa koja bi svugdje na
svijetu bila prvorazredna. Bili smo sjajni entuzijasti, krasni
studenti koji su kasarnu, sadašnje Klovićeve dvore, pretvorili
u našu akademiju. Potreban je veliki entuzijazam da se bace
vojni kreveti sa svim njihovim stanarima, da se oliče zidovi
kasarne i da tu zaživi jedna sjajna škola. Nikada neću shvatiti
zašto se to ukinulo. Osim što su nam profesori bili izvanredni,
naša studentska ekipa bila je odlična: Riba Lončarić, Lipovac,
Bourek. I na tom nivou bili su manje-više svi; Jakić, Pejaković.
Ta se akademija poslije dvije godine ukinula. Nikada nismo pre-
žalili i shvatili zašto. Nakon toga sam otišla u Beč.
ORIS — Što mislite zašto se ukinula? S takvim ljudima?
Politički razlog? ¶ jagoda buić — Prije bih rekla da je razlog
bio nerazumijevanje. Onu drugu, likovnu akademiju vodili su
ovi veliki privilegirani državni umjetnici, a naša sredina nije bila
182 oris, broj 96, godina 2015.
ORIS — Strohkoffer was the meeting place for the avant- Žar-ptica
– homage
garde. ¶ jagoda buić — Yes, we used to go to Strohkoffer
every evening. I also used to visit concerts where Karajan and
Stravinskom,
1977., tapiserija
Furtwängler, in their epic competition, played the same rep-
Firebird –
ertoire over the course of fifteen days. All my colleagues came
with sheet music, but not me, I behaved in the manner that
hommage to
Stravinsky,
is typical of those from the city of Split, and arrived without 1977, tapestry
scores. One evening I had only one schilling in my pocket and I
(jb)
had to choose between eating Gulaschsuppe and going to the
Brahms-Saal. At that time the bass of the young Čangalović
resonated through this venue that has the best acoustics in
Vienna. This was the time of real education!
ORIS — Let’s go back to the tapestry. What is your posi-
tion on the gender definition of tapestry in the sense that
it, according to its softness and suppleness, represents a
female element? The tradition says that Ariadne’s thread
saves Theseus, Penelope weaves and covers her bed, Parcae
weaves destiny, etc. Is this woman’s predetermination for
the art of tapestry close to you? ¶ jagoda buić — There is
no doubt that some professions are associated with females.
There are continuations that are linked to women’s destiny
and it is no wonder that weaving, which was connected
with the fireplace, had its continuation that also belongs to
women’s destiny.
ORIS — In the 1950s and 1960s Zagreb had a lively avant-
garde scene – in the theatre and other arts. The year of 1960
saw the beginning of a trend towards contemporary adap-
tations of classical antiquity plays, costumes, stage design
and direction. It was the age of great directors, beginning
with Gavella and his students: Spaić, Škiljan, Radojević, Violić,
Paar, etc. The age of the avant-garde in art and architecture
was especially connected with the group Exat 51, which must
have caught your attention also with their integrative ideas. dovoljno kultivirana i nisu vidjeli svrhu akademije za primije- product of such Zagreb; of course, I was very fortunate to
¶ jagoda buić — It did more than just catch my attention; I njene umjetnosti. Postojala je zanatska škola, obrtnička škola participate in this life as a student and an associate.
was a part of those events. I cannot say that I participated in u svim gradovima. Prema tome nije još bilo potrebe za nama ORIS — And the muse. ¶ jagoda buić — Sometimes.
Radić and Richter’s heated discussions with Bernardi, Kristl… sa strane industrije. ORIS — A kind of contemporary Cvijeta Zuzorić. ¶ jagoda
on most dangerous and most sublime problems of modern ORIS — Sva ta avangardna kretanja zapravo su bila kretanja buić — You are almost right – I used to be called Cvijeta
architecture and philosophy. I was involved in those discus- unatoč. Jer ipak je to bilo u okviru jednog sistema s kojim ta in the Gymnasium of Dubrovnik. At our Academy of Applied
sions more as a listener and the mascot. I was so lucky to kretanja nisu bila u skladu. ¶ jagoda buić — Išlo se uzvodno, Arts, Radovani, Richter, Branka Hegedušić, Tomašević… were
have lived in Zagreb in the late 1950s and 1960s. A cultural jer ako ideš nizvodno to je kao da nisi išao. A sve ideologije, our professors. It was a team that would be first-class any-
environment that was flourishing after the Second World misli i velike aktivnosti išle su samo uz otpor, jer se tada razvi- where in the world. We were great enthusiasts, students that
War was represented by the best. Not because it was on jala nužna energija da nešto postane i intelektualno i stvarno, turned the barracks, now the Klovićevi dvori Gallery, into our
the same level as the whole of Europe, but because it was a ne da ostane samo na razini pragmatičnog življenja. Vratila Academy. It takes immense enthusiasm to throw out military
on top – judging by its classical and quality education and sam se sa završenom akademijom iz Beča i nije mi palo na beds with all its tenants, to paint the walls of the barracks and
extremely smart individuals, such as Richter, Bernardi, Radić pamet da mogu dobiti namještenje, atelje. Tako da sam ušla u create an exceptional school. I will never understand why it
and others. This was the same in the theatre – activities of teatar i tu našla svoj predivni svijet. Zamislite, sve to nije bilo was closed down. We had extraordinary professors and made
the group of directors you have mentioned. I was thus a stvarno, nego je sve bilo izmišljotina. a great student team as well: Riba Lončarić, Lipovac, Bourek.
oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 183

Skica, 1984.
Sketch, 1984
(jb)
ORIS — Da, ali izmišljotina zapravo istinitija od života.
¶ jagoda buić — Jasno. Kada je Šerbedžija ovog ljeta govo-
rio Shakespeareov To be, or not to be, smatrala sam kako je u
tih 36 godina, otkad ga je Rade zadnji put izgovorio na Lovri-
jencu, taj izričaj sazrio i postao istinitiji. Shakespeare bi bio jako
zadovoljan kad bi ga čuo, jer je u tom izgovorenom genijalnom
monologu bilo sadržano 36 godina saznanja i iskustva koje je
on nama poklonio.
ORIS — Poznata je Vaša sklonost i ljubav prema umjetnicima
70-ih i 80-ih godina. ¶ jagoda buić — To su recimo Džamo-
nja, Murtić, Ružić, Gabrijel Stupica, Peđa Milosavljević, Bakić,
Bernik, Lubarda. Usudila bih se reći da je Ružić među njima bio
najveći skulptorski talent. Ružić je nosio tako iskonsku vjeru u
to što je skulptura, zašto i od čega je skulptura. Ja sam htjela
pokazati svijetu što smo mi bili 80-ih godina. Samo jedna
zemlja nam je možda mogla konkurirati, a to je bila Španjolska,
s Chillidom i Tàpiesom.
ORIS — Vaš stav prema suvremenim zbivanjima u umjetno-
sti nije pretjerano pozitivan. ¶ jagoda buić — Ja mislim da
je kozmički naboj, taj fenomen umjetnosti, konstantan. Taj
naboj, koji se zove umjetnost, postoji. Ona nalazi svoj put kao
184 oris, broj 96, godina 2015.
More or less, all of the students were on the same level. Jakić,
Pejaković. After two years, the Academy was closed down.
We have never gotten over this fact or understood why it was
done. Afterwards, I went to Vienna.
ORIS — Why do you think it was closed down when it had
such individuals? Was this decision politically motivated?
¶ jagoda buić — I’d rather say it was because there was no
understanding. The other Academy, the Academy of Fine Arts,
was managed by privileged state artists and our environment
was not cultured enough to understand the purpose of the
Academy of Applied Arts. Every town had a vocational school,
a school of crafts. From the viewpoint of the industry, there-
fore, there was no need for us.
ORIS — All these avant-garde movements were actually
activities undertaken in spite of something – they existed
within a system they were not in accord with. ¶ jagoda
buić — People swam against the tide back then because
anything else would have seemed like nothing at all. All the
ideologies could only have been developed, thoughts could
only have been expressed and activities could only have been
carried out with resistance because back then the necessary
energy was generated to make something intellectual and
Skica, 1986.
real, and not to keep it merely pragmatic. Having graduated
from the Academy in Vienna, I came back and never thought Sketch, 1986
about taking up a position or a studio. I came to the theatre
(jb)
and found my beautiful world there. Fancy that – it was not
real, but a lie. rijeka ponornica; negdje teče i postoji. Mi je naravno tamo ne called art, really exists. It finds its way as a subterranean river
ORIS — Yes, but a lie more true than the life itself. ¶ jagoda tražimo jer nije na glavnim putovima, ali ne možemo reći da – it flows and exists somewhere. Naturally, we do not look
buić — Of course. When Šerbedžija recited Shakespeare’s To umjetnosti više nema. for it there because it is not on the main road, but we cannot
be, or not to be this summer, I felt as if the performance had ORIS — I na splitskom i na dubrovačkom festivalu radili ste say that there is no art.
matured and become more true over the course of thirty-six predstave u povijesnim ambijentima. Tražili ste odgovor na ORIS — You did plays in a historical ambience at the Split
years since the last time he delivered it at Fort Lovrijenac. izazov kazališta na otvorenom i ugroženu egzistenciju ljud- Summer Festival and Dubrovnik Summer Festival. If I may
Shakespeare would have been very satisfied because this bril- skog tijela u autentičnom i monumentalnom arhitektonskom quote you, you were looking for: the answer to the challenge
liantly recited monologue was enriched with thirty-six years of prostoru, ako Vas mogu citirati. ¶ jagoda buić — Trebalo se of the theatre in the open and the endangered existence of
knowledge and experience Šerbedžija so generously gave us. nametnuti otvorenoj okolini, odnosno arhitekturi koja je vrlo the human body in an authentic and monumental architec-
ORIS — Your affinity and love for the artists of the 1970s često i postala pozornica zato što je snažna i monumentalna. tural space. ¶ jagoda buić — It was necessary to impose
and 1980s is well known. ¶ jagoda buić — Yes, There were To su obično rimska arhitektura i ponešto grčke. A nekad, your concept upon the open environment or the architecture
Džamonja, Murtić, Ružić, Gabrijel Stupica, Peđa Milosavljević, naravno, i priroda. Sve troje je vrlo snažno i stavlja čovjekovo that has, in most cases, become a stage because it is strong
Bakić, Bernik, Lubarda. I dare say Ružić had the greatest talent tijelo u veliku kušnju. Dakle, glumcu treba pomoći. Vrlo mlada and monumental. Usually it is Roman architecture, sometimes
for sculpture – he had such a genuine idea of what sculpture sam se našla u toj situaciji sa splitskim Peristilom, a zatim i na Greek. Sometimes, of course, it is nature as well. All three are
is, why it is made, and what it is made of. I wanted to show Dubrovačkim ljetnim igrama. Potpuno je različita kostimogra- very strong and put the human body to a test. The actor needs
to the world what we were in the 1980s. There was only one fija na otvorenom od kostimografije na zatvorenom. Kosti- to be helped. I was very young when I was creating stage design
country that could have competed with us – it was Spain, mografija na zatvorenom dio je jedne čarolije, dio, nazovimo, in Peristil Square in Split, then also at the Dubrovnik Summer
with Chillida and Tàpies. nekakve šminke. Kostimografija na otvorenom traži jedan vrlo Festival. Costume design is completely different in the open
ORIS — Your attitude towards contemporary movements in jasan i čist pristup. Kostim mora biti adekvatan, mora izdržati from the one in closed space. Costume design in closed space
art is not too positive. ¶ jagoda buić — I think that this cos- konkurenciju monumentalne arhitekture. Osim što pristaje uz is part of the magic, a make-up, so to speak. Costume design in
mic energy, this phenomenon of art is constant. This energy, arhitekturu mora joj se i suprotstavljati. Dakle, glumcu treba the open requires a clear and pure approach. The costume has
oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 185
Projekt laguna,
Venecija, Italija,
Čovjek se ne može odvojiti od
2008.
onoga što se oko njega događa
Project Lagoon,
Venezia, Italy,
i što ga dira, ne mogu ga ne
2008
dirnuti te ruke koje se pružaju
(jb)
iz vode koja tako indiferentno
preko njih prelazi
It is not possible to distance your-
self from the events around you;
they have to affect you. You cannot
remain unaffected by the scenes of
hands reaching out of water that
overwhelms them so callously
186 oris, broj 96, godina 2015.
to be appropriate and endure the competition from monumen-
tal architecture. It has to fit architecture, but also to contrast it.
The actor needs help in a way that he makes a sharp contrast
with the environment, but then again that he does not blend
in with the environment that is too strong. This was a very
specific challenge for me and I hope that I succeeded in most
cases. You have to forget about details, stick to the line of the
costume of the time, but also create the impression that the
volume of the body is larger than it really is.
ORIS — Does the costume affect the movement of the actor
on stage? Costumes have to be adapted to the principle of
directing or even be part of directing. ¶ jagoda buić — I
was a good collaborator to directors because I worked in par-
allel with them. Stage movement is, naturally, conditioned
by the costume and vice versa. The cooperation was rarely
as good as it could have been, but I was not easily confused
because – especially at the time when I worked a lot on the
outdoor scenes – I was full of youthful enthusiasm and very
stubborn, the qualities I still possess.
oris, number 96, year 2015
pomoći na način da ga se suprotstavi okolini, a ne utopi u oko-
lini koja je presnažna. To je meni bio jedan specifičan izazov i
nadam se da sam u njemu u većini slučajeva uspjela. Tu treba
zaboraviti svaki detalj. Treba se držati linije kostima onoga
vremena, ali treba dati jedan osjećaj da je volumen toga tijela
veći nego što ustvari jest.
ORIS — Uvjetuje li kostim kao takav na neki način i kretanje
glumca na pozornici? On sigurno mora biti u skladu sa samom
režijom, odnosno biti čak i dio te režije. ¶ jagoda buić — Ja
sam bila dobar suradnik redateljima, zato što sam radila para-
lelno s njima. Jasno je da je scenski pokret uvjetovan kostimom
i obrnuto. Tu je rijetko dolazilo do suradnje kakva je mogla biti.
Nisam se dala time zbuniti, pogotovo jer je mene u to vrijeme
kad sam puno radila na vanjskim scenama nosio mladenački
entuzijazam i tvrdoglavost koji me krase još uvijek.
ORIS — Ta Vaša, kao što kažete, tvrdoglavost, sigurno
uzrokuje Vašu želju da stvari dovedete do kraja. Tako ste
počeli s kostimografijom, pa ste došli do scenografije, da bi
onda već nešto kasnije u Richardu iii. 1997. godine sve te tri
jagoda buić, Intervju
ORIS — This stubbornness of yours, as you have mentioned, Sunce, pijesak,
zvuk, 1983., video
surely motivates your strong desire to bring things to an end.
You started with costume design, then continued with stage Sun, Sand, Sound,
design and then later, in Richard iii, the play you directed 1983, video
in 1997, you combined the three components. ¶ jagoda
buić — Richard iii was a dream come true. I did it for a great
(jb)
actor and a friend of mine – Predrag Vušović. I was inspired
by my deep desire for total design. I was raised with the idea
that total design was the final goal of all of our artistic and
applicable aspirations. Everyone was very happy and satisfied
except for the government. They said that I used the charac-
ter of Richard iii to allude to President Tuđman, and the play
was closed down after four performances. Richard iii is maybe
Shakespeare’s most powerful text. It is set in the 14th century
and includes the battles and other attractive scenes. I mostly
feel inclined towards the Late Middle Ages, the beginning of
the Renaissance. I managed to do my own total design and it
was exactly with Richard iii. I made an entrance, and achieved
something that satisfied me as well.
jagoda buić, Interview 187
 Tonči Petrasov
Marović, Antigona,
kraljica u Tebi, Hrvatsko
narodno kazalište u
Splitu, redatelj Vlatko
Perković, scenografija
i kostimografija Jagoda
Buić, 1981.

Tonči Petrasov Marović,

Antigone, the Queen
of Thebes, Croatian
National Theatre
in Split, directed by
Vlatko Perković, set
and costume design by
Jagoda Buić, 1981

(av)

188 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 189
 ORIS — Is stage design only the background or an actor in a William Shakespeare,
Rikard III.,Gradsko
play? ¶ jagoda buić — Definitely an actor. The stage design
dramsko kazalište
of the play performed in Split, Antigone, the Queen of Thebes, Gavella, Zagreb,
written by Tonči Petrasov Marović, consisted of five unfruitful režija, scenografija i
kostimografija Jagoda
elements that had a new layout in each scene. I projected a
Buić, 1997.
sky full of variously shaped clouds. Thus the clouds came alive
and gave life to this moveable sculpture that created space. William Shakespeare,
Richard III, Gavella
ORIS — What was the connection between the scene in the
Drama Theatre,
play Richard iii and the costumes? ¶ jagoda buić — You felt Zagreb, direction, set
as if you had been leaving a medieval miniature, like the ones and costume design
Jagoda Buić, 1997
in incunabula: completely modernised and simplified. I just
can’t stand when a text that is written for a certain period is (jb)
transported into a different period because this has become a
trend. If you do not dress Oedipus in jeans, you are not mod-
ern. What Oedipus gets with these jeans and what the jeans
get with Oedipus – I do not know. Therefore, I think that this
forceful insistence on a period that a text does not refer to
takes away, from the text, everything that this time, mental-
ity and morality provide as the meaning of the action itself.
ORIS — What was the concept of directing the play Richard
iii? ¶ jagoda buić — I did not deal with the concept; I was
focused on Shakespeare. I felt sorry for every line I had to

Redateljske
skice za
Rikarda III.

Director’s
sketches for
Richard III

(jb)

Modeli kostima
za Rikarda III.

Mock-ups of
costumes for
Richard III

(jb)

190 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 191
 Nakon moje avanture u tapiseriji
i tkanju prešla sam u novi medij –
papir. Papir je pametan, podatan,
svejedno je li kutija od ambalaže
ili najfiniji japanski papir

After my adventure with the

tapestry and weaving, I found a
new medium – paper. Paper is smart
and supple, whether it is just a box
or the finest Japanese paper

Izložba Carta komponente ujedinili. ¶ jagoda buić — Richard iii. bio je

Canta 2,
vrh mojih snova. Radila sam ga zbog jednog velikog glumca i
Palača Sponza,
Dubrovnik, prijatelja, Predraga Vušovića. Bila sam ponukana svojom dav-
Hrvatska, 2013. nom željom za total-dizajnom. Odgojena sam u smislu da je
total-dizajn konačni cilj svih naših primijenjenoumjetničkih
Carta Canta
2 exhibition, stremljenja. Svi su bili jako sretni i zadovoljni, osim režima.
Sponza Palace, Režim je rekao da sam ja Rikardom iii. aludirala na lik predsjed-
Dubrovnik,
nika Tuđmana te je skinut nakon 4 predstave. Rikard iii. možda
Croatia, 2013
je najjači Shakespeareov tekst. Radi se o 14. stoljeću. Ima bitaka
(jb) i svega onoga što je scenski neodoljivo. Ja tendiram najviše
tom kasnom srednjem vijeku, početku renesanse. Dospjela
sam do toga da napravim svoj total-dizajn i to baš s Rikardom
iii. Nisam ušla kroz mala vrata, već velika. I napravila nešto što
je i mene zadovoljilo.
ORIS — Scenografija kao pozadina ili kao akter predstave?
¶ jagoda buić — Svakako akter. Scenografija splitske pred-
stave Antigona, kraljica u Tebi Tončija Petrasova Marovića
sastojala se od 5 šturih i jednostavnih elemenata koji u svakoj
sceni dobivaju novi raspored. Na te šture elemente projicirala
sam nebo puno raznoraznih oblaka. Ti su oblaci tako zaživjeli
sami i davali život toj pomičnoj skulpturi koja je stvarala prostor.
ORIS — Kako je ta scenografija kod Rikarda iii. korespondirala
s kostimima? ¶ jagoda buić — Imali ste dojam da izlazite iz
jedne srednjovjekovne minijature. To su one minijature koje
su na inkunabulama, potpuno modernizirane i pojednostav-
ljene. Apsolutno ne podnosim kada se po sadašnjoj modi tekst

192 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 193

Diptih, 2012., koji je pisan za jedno vrijeme prenese u drugo vrijeme. Ako ne
kolaž
staviš Edipa u traperice nisi moderan. E sad što Edip dobiva
Diptych, 2012, s trapericama i što traperice dobivaju s Edipom, ja ne znam.
collage Prema tome smatram da nasilno izguravanje teksta iz vremena
na koje se odnosi oduzima tekstu sve ono što mu to vrijeme,
(jb)
mentalitet i moral daju kao smisao same radnje.
ORIS — Koji je bio Vaš redateljski koncept kod Richarda iii.?
¶ jagoda buić — Nisam se bavila konceptom, bavila sam
se Shakespeareom. Bilo mi je žao svake crte koju smo morali
brisati iz tekstova triju kraljica gdje se vidi utjecaj Seneke na
Shakespearea. Ali držala sam se toga da gledatelj ne može
gledati predstavu duže od dva sata. Bilo mi je je također jako
stalo do ritma predstave. Tako se kroz ritam očitovala ta izvje-
sna modernost. Intenzitet predstave odgovarao je izvjesnom
intenzitetu življenja. Često sam pomislila da sam rođena da
budem redatelj. Naravno da ja to nisam tražila, a da sam i tra-
žila ne bi mi dali. U moje vrijeme trebao si imati barem naočale
i bradu da bi te shvatili ozbiljno. Radila sam sa sjajnim redate-
ljima: Tanhoferom, Gavellom, Parom, Spaićem, Radojevićem,
Violićem – velika plejada. Više sam naučila na njihovim pro-
bama nego da sam pohađala dvije akademije.
ORIS — Koje su kostimografkinje eventualno utjecale na Vaš
rad? ¶ jagoda buić — Imala sam primjer dviju sjajnih kosti-
Kabooki I, mografkinja. Jedna je bila Inga Kostinčer, a druga moja prijateljica
Kabooki II, Boža Košak, Mariborčanka u Rimu. Ona nije bila kostimografki-
2012., kolaž
nja već Picasso mode. Ali nije ništa htjela potpisati jer je smatrala
Kabooki I, da to nije elegantno. Zato njezin rad danas nije poznat, a nadam
Kabooki II, se da ću stići organizirati njezinu izložbu u Sloveniji, Hrvatskoj
2012, collage
ili Trstu, gdje je rođena. Odmah nakon moje diplomske nagrade
(jb) u Beču 1954. Boža i ja dobile smo nagradu na međunarodnom
194 oris, broj 96, godina 2015.
delete from the texts of the three queens that show the influ-
ence of Seneca on Shakespeare. But I followed the principle
according to which the audience cannot sit through the play
for more than two hours. I also took care of the rhythm of
the play. The rhythm expressed the modernity. The intensity
of the play was in accord with the specific intensity of living.
I often thought that I had been born to be a director. I did not
ask for it, of course, and if I had asked, I would not have been
given the opportunity. At the time, you had to have glasses
and a beard to be taken seriously. I worked with excellent
directors: Tanhofer, Gavella, Paro, Spaić, Radojević, Violić…
all great directors. I learnt more by being present at their
rehearsals than I would have learnt if I had graduated from
two academies.
ORIS — What costume designers influenced your work?
¶ jagoda buić — There were two great costume designers
back then. One was Inga Kostinčer and the other my friend
Boža Košak, who came from Maribor but lived in Rome. She
was not a costume designer, but a Picasso of fashion. But she
did not want to sign anything because she thought it was
inelegant. Her work is thus not known today and I hope I will
manage to organise an exhibition of her works in Slovenia, natječaju Moda u Rimu. Dok su drugi pravili varijante na rimski skirts. I made a dress that was called Fontana di Trevi and Carta Magna,
2013., kolaž
Croatia or in Trieste, where she was born. Immediately after I kostim, Božini prijedlozi bili su da se na široke suknje tiskaju Pira- was made of beads that cascaded down the evening dress.
had received the award for my diploma work in Vienna, Boža nesijevi motivi iz serije Vedute di Roma. Ja sam napravila jednu The Colosseum was printed around the whole edge of the Carta Magna,
and I were presented with the award at the international haljinu koja se zvala Fontana di Trevi, sastavljenu od perlica koje wide skirt of the other dress. 2013, collage
competition – Fashion in Rome. While other competitors did su u kaskadama padale s te večernje haljine. A na drugoj je oko ORIS — You also did film costume design, the best of which
(jb)
variations of the Roman costume, Boža’s idea was to print čitave široke suknje bio tiskan Koloseum. can be seen in the film The Emperor’s New Clothes directed by
Piranesi’s motifs from the series Vedute di Roma on wide ORIS — Vi ste se isto tako bavili filmskom kostimografijom, Ante Babaja. Medieval miniatures that you have mentioned
a vrhunac toga je bio u filmu Ante Babaje Carevo novo ruho. probably inspired the film. ¶ jagoda buić — The Costume
Kad ste spomenuli srednjovjekovne minijature – to je vjero- Design Award was founded precisely for the filmThe Emperor’s
jatno bila i inspiracija za taj film. ¶ jagoda buić — Za Carevo New Clothes at the Pula Film Festival. I was very enthusiastic
novo ruho ustanovljena je nagrada za kostimografiju na film- and managed to have everything on the white background.
skom festivalu u Puli. Radila sam s velikim entuzijazmom i The floor was also white so there was no horizon.
postigla da sve bude na bijeloj pozadini. I pod je bio bijel tako ORIS — What is your experience with Peristil Square as a
da horizonta nije bilo. stage? ¶ jagoda buić — I designed the scene and the cos-
ORIS — Kakvo je Vaše iskustvo s Peristilom kao pozornicom? tumes for the opera Nabucco at the time when we did not
¶ jagoda buić — Scenu i kostime radila sam u Nabuccu kada have money – I could only have given a seven-branched Jewish
nismo imali više novaca nego da pjevačima dadem u ruke po menorah to each singer. Since there were two choirs, there
jednu sedmokraku židovsku menoru. Kako su bila dva zbora, were one hundred and twenty candlesticks in Peristil and
bilo je 120 svijećnjaka na Peristilu i ništa drugo. To je bila moja nothing else. It was the most beautiful stage design– music,
najljepša scenografija. Dakle glazba, Peristil i vatra. Peristil and the fire. Forme na
ORIS — Možete li nešto reći o razlici između kazališne i ORIS — Can you tell us something about the difference vjetru i vodi,
1973., tapiserija
filmske kostimografije? ¶ jagoda buić — Kazališna i film- between the theatre and film costume design? ¶ jagoda
ska kostimografija podjednako su različite kao film i kazalište. buić — Theatre and film costume design are as different as Forms on Wind
Teatar je jedna pametna laž, a film je jedna lažna istina. Prema film and theatre. Theatre is a smart lie, and film is the fake and Water,
1973, tapestry
tome, u filmu se treba jako čuvati svega što bi moglo podsje- truth. Therefore, everything that could evoke theatrical styli-
ćati na stilizaciju teatarskog tipa. zation should be avoided in the film. (jb)
oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 195
196 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 197