How To (Consistently) Make Positive E-6 Transparencies With C-41 Chemicals Photrio - Com Photography Forums

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How to (consistently) make positive E-6 transparencies with C-41 chemicals
A ·  grainyvision ·  Jun 20, 2018
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Jun 20, 2018  #1
So I have been chasing this idea of being able to process E-6 film in
B/W developer and C-41 chemicals in order to create positive
grainyvision transparencies. I've been working on this process since sometime last
Subscriber year, and I think I finally have it perfected for almost all types of
currently produced E-6 film. I of course have done my research and
Joined: Feb 19, 2018 found this is not an unheard of idea. What I had trouble finding was a
Messages: 694 reasonable and consistent recipe using commonly available chemicals
Location:
Denver, Colorado and without any Ph balancing, chemical additions, etc. When I tried it
Format: Multi Format the first time, things were all over the place. Some guidance resulted
in an effective 3 stop pull, other guidance only resulted in a 1 stop
pull. I wanted to get to exactly box speed, with little to no color casts.
With a lot of wasted film experimenting, and a lot of patience, I've
finally figured it out. I wanted to figure this out for two primary
reasons: First, I hate having two sets of color chemicals, especially with
how volatile and fragile the E-6 ones are. Second, I wanted to use it
for artistic effect, to change the character of a film and maybe make
something unique.
My personal favorite film in this chemistry is Provia 100. It resembles

Kodachrome in some ways and as long as you tighten up on the blue
shadows in photoshop (or use a tungsten colored scanning light) you
get just absolutely marvelous color with plenty of saturation and
contrast, but not too much. A more tame and warmer version of
Velvia.
Anyway I wrote my final recipe, some lessons from my experiments,

and tons of full resolution pictures from a variety of stocks in a blog
post: https://filmandtubes.tumblr.com/post/175065123616/x-pro-
reversal-perfected I've also attached a few of my favorite examples
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The recipe:
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• Mix HC-110 A working solution (1+15)
• Heat both HC-110 and C-41 chemicals to 102F (you might also
want a bottle of water for rinsing)
• Rinse/preheat the tank for 2 minutes
• Develop for 6:30 in HC-110. Agitate 10s initially, and then 4x
every 30s after. Experimenting with less aggressive agitation
could lead to less blown highlights, but additional time might
be required for full shadow development.
• Rinse several times in order to stop development
• Remove film from tank, fog over daylight colored light pad. Do
not fog over tungsten lights or outside using the sun. Fog for 2
or 3 minutes, ensuring to cover both the front and back of the
film
• Put film back in tank
• Rinse/preheat tank again for 2 minutes
• C-41 develop for slightly longer. For my kit it says 3:30, so I did
it for 4:00 for VERY fresh developer (ie, this was the second roll I
used with it). If you’ve processed more than 4 rolls, extend to
4:15. If you’ve processed more than kit capacity go for 4:30 or
even up to 5:00.
• Blix for almost twice as long as instructed. For my kit it says 6:00,
so I blix for 10:00. If using a two bath kit, extend both bleach
and fix times.
• Rinse as normal. I recommend inspecting the film before
stabilizing in case more blix is required.
I have tons of pictures across different types of film. The only one I've
had consistent problems to the extent of "wow this turned out looking
absolutely awful and unusable" is Rollei CN200, Rollei CR200, and
Lomography X-Pro 200.
Processing C-41 film like this WILL result in color shifts and can be
quite unpredictable. C-41 film will also of course have the orange
base. This is easy to correct out in photoshop but makes it impossible
to project with. Each C-41 film has it's own character when processed
with X-Pro Reversal. Most E-6 film is on the range of passable or great:
• E-6 Velvia 100 - Good, but I prefer the look of E-6 processing.
There is a slight loss in color saturation with this
• E-6 Provia 100 - Absolutely perfect. I actually prefer the look this
film gives with this process to traditional E-6
• E-6 Ektachrome 320 (frozen/expired) - Decent, a lack of color
saturation however, and some mild color shifts
• E-6 Lomography X-Pro 200 - Absolutely awful, don't do it
• C-41 Superia 400 - Extreme color shifts, skin tones can look
blotchy and purple in the wrong light
• C-41 Lomo color 400 / Kodak Gold - Reasonable colors, though
some mild shifts. Very punchy and vibrant with lots of
saturation. High levels of contrast. Resembles a more tame
version of Velvia with a lot more grain
• E-6 FPP Color IR 400 - Preliminary (lacking scans) - Looks really
great
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Examples:
Provia 100

Velvia 100
Ektachrome 320
Kodak Gold 400

Jun 20, 2018  #2
Woah. Excellent work!
Cholentpot Would this work with any B&W films?

Subscriber ~Ashley <3
Film Chemistry Blog: https://grainy.vision
Joined: Oct 26, 2015
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Jun 20, 2018  #3
Wow, wow wow....!!
flavio81 Paging @georgegrosu who might be interested as well...

Member This Nikkor lens is so good... that it should be labeled as a Canon lens!
Messages: 5,036
Location: Lima, Peru
Format: Medium Format
Jun 20, 2018  #4

O
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Denver, Colorado Cholentpot said: 
Woah. Excellent work!
Would this work with any B&W films?
I have a roll of XP2+ that I've been meaning to try this with. When I'm
doing B/W it's usually so I can make darkroom prints, so I typically
don't want positives. With most B/W films put through this process
though you'll end up with just a clear strip of plastic because the blix
part of C-41 strips off all the silver. With XP2+ it should work since it's
not silver that you see on the film, but rather dye.
Also, I scanned the color IR film and I don't think it looks any better
than in E-6, but it doesn't look much worse either.
Jun 20, 2018  #5
~Ashley <3
earlz said: 
Cholentpot I have a roll of XP2+ that I've been meaning to try this with. When I'm
Subscriber
doing B/W it's usually so I can make darkroom prints, so I typically
don't want positives. With most B/W films put through this process
Joined: Oct 26, 2015 though you'll end up with just a clear strip of plastic because the blix
Messages: 6,258 part of C-41 strips off all the silver. With XP2+ it should work since it's
Format: 35mm not silver that you see on the film, but rather dye.
Also, I scanned the color IR film and I don't think it looks any better
than in E-6, but it doesn't look much worse either.
So that odd roll of BW400CN stuff I got floating around would be a

prime for this...off to the freezer!
Jun 20, 2018  #6

O
P
Cholentpot said: 
By continuing to useodd
So that this roll
site,of
you are consenting
BW400CN stufftoI our
gotuse of cookies.
floating around would be a
grainyvision
Subscriber
prime for this...off
 Acceptto the freezer!
Learn more…
Joined: Feb 19, 2018
Messages: 694
While doing some research on this, I did hear that you can end up
Location:
Denver, Colorado with strange color casts with XP2+, so I wouldn't do it with anything
Format: Multi Format really critical
~Ashley <3
Jun 20, 2018  #7
Thanks earlz for sharing your work. Deserves a try by myself!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/107444644@N02/
halfaman
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Joined: Sep 22, 2012

Messages: 1,095
Location: Bilbao
Format: Multi Format
Jun 21, 2018  #8
earlz said: 
mard0 Kodak Gold 400

Member
Joined: Oct 12, 2017 Wouldn't this result in to a wides with a orange base? How is that
Messages: 47 better than a negative?
Location: Netherlands
Format: Analog
How about the stability? Wouldn't CD-3 instead of CD-4 make the
slides less stable
Regards,
Martijn
Jun 21, 2018  #9
earlz said: 
thuggins While doing some research on this, I did hear that you can end up with
Member
strange color casts with XP2+, so I wouldn't do it with anything really
critical
Joined: Jan 12, 2008
Messages: 1,136
Location: Dallas, TX XP2 processes beautifully as a positive. I have posted information to
Format: Multi Format that effect a couple of times here, at least. I find that for best results
shoot at 100ASA and increase first developer time by 25% (i.e. over
expose and over develop). They come out a very nice bluish-grey and
are really unique and lovely images. Sample images have been posted
on their respective threads.
Tim Huggins
By continuing to use
Olympus - Allthis site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
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Medium Format - Lots
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Baby Graphics - Went a bit overboard
Various Exaktas and Other Quirky Things
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Jun 22, 2018  #10
Did you do anything else to the Kodak Gold? That is remarkably sharp
and contrasty for cross processed negative film. And there does not
thuggins appear to be much, if any, of an orange mask.
Member Tim Huggins
Joined: Jan 12, 2008 Olympus - All of them
Messages: 1,136 Medium Format - Lots
Location: Dallas, TX Super Graphic
Format: Multi Format Baby Graphics - Went a bit overboard
Various Exaktas and Other Quirky Things
www.thermojetstove.com/natureshots
 · SMBooth · Deleted · Jun 22, 2018 · Reason: ss
Jun 22, 2018  #11

O
P
thuggins said: 
grainyvision Did you do anything else to the Kodak Gold? That is remarkably sharp
Subscriber
and contrasty for cross processed negative film. And there does not
appear to be much, if any, of an orange mask.
Joined: Feb 19, 2018
Messages: 694
Location: Of course, I had to adjust curves etc so that the orange mask wasn't
Denver, Colorado there. I scanned it using a DLSR by taking a picture of the clear (ie,
only orange base) leader to set whitepoint, and then scanning as
normal. Here is what the raw scan off the camera looked like:
And here
By continuing to useisthis
what
site, it
youlooked like if Itoset
are consenting ourthe
usewhitepoint
of cookies. to daylight
(which my lightpad
 AcceptI use formore…
Learn scanning is set to) and thus is much
closer in reality to what you see with your eye
Regarding image stability, I have no idea if the dyes produced are the
same regardless of it it's activated by CD-3 or CD-4. To me it would
make sense if they were, but I don't have a chemistry background.
Unfortunately no real way of knowing how stable the image is either
without waiting a number of years at least. I do know that E-6
processing still requires formalin. It should be simple to make a C-41
and E-6 stabilizer with some formalin and photoflo, but I haven't
bothered.
~Ashley <3
Jun 27, 2018  #12
This is the best thread that has appeared on APUG/PHOTRIO on ages.

Bumping.
flavio81
Member Also, this should provide some relevant information: A similar process
in 2006.
Messages: 5,036 https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/cd-4-and-cd-3-whats-the-
Location: Lima, Peru
Format: Medium Format difference.192896/
This Nikkor lens is so good... that it should be labeled as a Canon lens!
Jun 28, 2018  #13
Thanks for the info.
wblynch I tried it with some expired Provia 400F. I did something wrong as the
Member film came out almost black and you can very faintly see images. I can
scan them but they don't come out very good. If I had an enlarger I
This site uses
Joined: 9, 2009to help could
Febcookies probably
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tailor through themand
your experience given enough
to keep time.in if you register.
you logged
Messages: 1,700By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Location: Mission Viejo
Format: 127 Format I am sure I didn't
 Accept give enough light in the re-exposure
Learn more… step.
The colors look to be correct which is the main goal.
I will try again soon.

- Bill Lynch
Jun 28, 2018  #14
I'm quite impressed with the results, thanks for sharing. I'm always
interested in people's tests, since they could become useful one day if
iandvaag E6 goes by the wayside.
Subscriber
Joined: Oct 7, 2015 wblynch said: 

Messages: 476
Location: SK, Canada the film came out almost black
If you ask me, I'd say if the film came out black, you've given enough
re-exposure, and your problem was unsufficient first development
(assuming the in-camera exposure was correct).
First developers (FDs) in reversal processes are specially formulated

beasts! Pretty much all of the colour balancing and contrast control is
done in the FD. Hc110 is not a reversal first developer, and won't
produce optimal results. It is really challenging to properly formulate a
reversal FD.
If you want a suggestion, you could try mixing up some D-67 (not
D-76!) or D-168. These are reversal FDs for B&W. They might be a bit
closer, but still won't be optimal. E6 FD contains hydroquinone
monosulfonate (HQMS), which is different than regular HQ.
If you don't want to mix D-67 or D-168, then you could try adding a
silver halide solvent to your HC110 (such as thiocyanate or
thiosulfate). It will probably take a lot of trial and error to get the
proper amount and the proper developing time.
Best of luck.
Scott Sheppard's Inside Analog Photo Radio || Medium Format Stereo Group ||
solidsight.net
Jun 29, 2018  #15

O
P
iandvaag said: 
grainyvision First developers (FDs) in reversal processes are specially formulated

Subscriber
beasts! Pretty much all of the colour balancing and contrast control is
done in the FD. Hc110 is not a reversal first developer, and won't
Joined: Feb 19, 2018 produce optimal results. It is really challenging to properly formulate a
Messages: 694 reversal FD.
Location:
Denver, Colorado If you want a suggestion, you could try mixing up some D-67 (not
This site uses
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Formatto help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
D-76!)
By continuing or this
to use D-168. These
site, you are are reversal
consenting toFDs for of
our use B&W. They might be a bit
cookies.
Click to
closer, but still won't be optimal. E6 expand...
FD contains hydroquinone
Why is D-76 more tuned as a first developer than HC-110? Why is
HQMS an absolute requirement? I get consistent box speed results by
using HC-110 solution A heated to 102F, cooked for 6:30 and agitated
every 30 seconds. The only difference I see between E-6 first dev and
HC-110 is slightly less contrast, but that actually makes slide film a bit
easier to work with.
~Ashley <3
Jun 29, 2018  #16

O
P
wblynch said: 
grainyvision Thanks for the info.

Subscriber
I tried it with some expired Provia 400F. I did something wrong as the
Joined: Feb 19, 2018 film came out almost black and you can very faintly see images. I can
Messages: 694 scan them but they don't come out very good. If I had an enlarger I
Location: could probably print through them given enough time.
Denver, Colorado
I am sure I didn't give enough light in the re-exposure step.
Click to expand...
If you didn't fog the film enough, your unexposed portions of film
should be fairly clear, rather than completely blocked as normal.
Sounds like you massively under developed during the first developer,
or your first developer was bad in some way (make sure it's heated to
102F).
~Ashley <3
Jun 29, 2018  #17
Well, after first development, when I pulled the film out for light
exposure, the black and white images were quite strong. I'm sure if I
wblynch fixed the film then it would have given very acceptable b/w negatives.
Member
I admit I could have done any of a number of things wrong but I'm
Joined: Feb 9, 2009 certain that in-camera exposure was no more than a half stop off, if at
Messages: 1,700 all. My best guess is under-exposure in the reversal step. Funny
Format: 127 Format though that what can be seen of the images is clear and good color.
It's like the darkness is a solid mask across the entire film strip. I tried
to re-fix the film but it did nothing more to help.
Even though this try wasn't successful I am interested to try again. I

was excited to see positive images. Next time I will be more diligent at
every step.
- Bill Lynch

Jun 29, 2018  #18
wblynch said: 
mard0 Well, after first development, when I pulled the film out for light
Member
exposure, the black and white images were quite strong. I'm sure if I
fixed the film then it would have given very acceptable b/w negatives
Messages: 47
Location: Netherlands If the film looked okay as a negative, then the development was not
Format: Analog long/strong enough.
Regards,
Martijn
Jun 29, 2018  #19

O
P
Also if you're using expired Provia 400, it might have lost some of it's
sensitivity and you might need to expose it at 200 or 100 ISO. I've not
grainyvision tried this process yet with expired film unless it's been frozen, so I'm
Subscriber not sure what adjustments can be made for that.
Joined: Feb 19, 2018 ~Ashley <3

Messages: 694 Film Chemistry Blog: https://grainy.vision
Location:
Denver, Colorado
Jul 2, 2018  #20
As fate would have it, I bought a camera with an exposed roll of Provia
400x inside so I gave it another go. This time I followed EarlZ
wblynch instructions religiously. The process worked wonderfully.
Member Unfortunately there were only 3 exposures on the roll and they
appeared to be test flash shots of a white feather duster in a black
Joined: Feb 9, 2009 box. Not very colorful or exciting. But it clearly worked and the edge
Messages: 1,700 markings came out beautifully.
Format: 127 Format
My only complaint is it takes 30 ml of HC-110 per roll of 120 and I’m
down to my last 100 cc. Time to order more HC-110 and a bottle of
Rodinol to go with it. Or I could mix up some of the D-76 or X-Tol
powder I have hanging around.
- Bill Lynch
Jul 3, 2018  #21
wblynch said: 
Cholentpot As fate would have it, I bought a camera with an exposed roll of Provia
Subscriber
400x inside so I gave it another go. This time I followed EarlZ
instructions religiously. The process worked wonderfully. Unfortunately
Joined: there
Oct 26, 2015By continuing were
to use only
this site,3you
exposures on the
are consenting to roll andofthey
our use appeared to be test
cookies.
Messages: 6,258 flash shots of a white feather duster in a black box. Not very colorful or
Format: 35mm  itAccept
exciting. But Learn more…
clearly worked and the edge markings came out
beautifully.
My only complaint is it takes 30 ml of HC-110 per roll of 120 and I’m
Think this'll work with rodinal? If so what do you think the times would
be and what dilution.
Jul 3, 2018  #22
Cholentpot said: 
wblynch Think this'll work with rodinal? If so what do you think the times would
Member
be and what dilution.
Joined: Feb 9, 2009

Messages: 1,700 No, I don't have any idea. I just am out of black and white developer.
Location: Mission Viejo But it seems reasonable that Rodinal would work.. why not?
Format: 127 Format
- Bill Lynch
Jul 3, 2018  #23
wblynch said: 
Cholentpot No, I don't have any idea. I just am out of black and white developer.
Subscriber
But it seems reasonable that Rodinal would work.. why not?

Messages: 6,258 Lets figure this out. Anyone got any formulas for C-41 in Rodinal? I'll
Format: 35mm guinea pig this with some expired film...
Jul 3, 2018  #24
wblynch said: 
flavio81 No, I don't have any idea. I just am out of black and white developer.
Member
But it seems reasonable that Rodinal would work.. why not?
Joined: Oct 24, 2014 Cholentpot said: 

Messages: 5,036
Location: Lima, Peru Lets figure this out. Anyone got any formulas for C-41 in Rodinal? I'll
Format: Medium Format guinea pig this with some expired film...
The formula uses HC-110 dilution A at 110°F. The strong dilution

(1:15) and very high temperature (for HC-110) mean the development
will be very strong, aiming to increase contrast A LOT.
This would be, in my opinion, consistent with what one does in B&W
This site uses cookies to help reversal,
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your developer.
experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
Thus, any developer
 Accept suitable for achieving the very high contrasts
Learn more…
should work. Perhaps Rodinal but at a concentration good for
developing paper (paper developers are much more strong). Or
perhaps using Dektol!
This Nikkor lens is so good... that it should be labeled as a Canon lens!
Jul 3, 2018  #25
flavio81 said: 
Cholentpot The formula uses HC-110 dilution A at 110°F. The strong dilution (1:15)
Subscriber
and very high temperature (for HC-110) mean the development will be
very strong, aiming to increase contrast A LOT.
Messages: 6,258 This would be, in my opinion, consistent with what one does in B&W
Format: 35mm reversal, which is using a "contrast-working" developer.
Thus, any developer suitable for achieving the very high contrasts
should work. Perhaps Rodinal but at a concentration good for
So what would work with Rodinal? Lets talk numbers and formula.
What would work?
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Jun 20, 2018  #1

My personal favorite film in this chemistry is Provia 100. It resembles

Anyway I wrote my final recipe, some lessons from my experiments,

 Accept Learn more…

 Accept Learn more…

Kodak Gold 400

 Accept Learn more…

Woah. Excellent work!

Cholentpot Would this work with any B&W films?

Jun 20, 2018  #3

Wow, wow wow....!!

flavio81 Paging @georgegrosu who might be interested as well...

Jun 20, 2018  #4

Woah. Excellent work!

Would this work with any B&W films?

Jun 20, 2018  #5

So that odd roll of BW400CN stuff I got floating around would be a

Jun 20, 2018  #6

Jun 20, 2018  #7

Thanks earlz for sharing your work. Deserves a try by myself!

Joined: Sep 22, 2012

Jun 21, 2018  #8

mard0 Kodak Gold 400

Jun 21, 2018  #9

Jun 22, 2018  #10

 · SMBooth · Deleted · Jun 22, 2018 · Reason: ss

Jun 22, 2018  #11

Jun 27, 2018  #12

This is the best thread that has appeared on APUG/PHOTRIO on ages.

Jun 28, 2018  #13

Thanks for the info.

I will try again soon.

Jun 28, 2018  #14

Joined: Oct 7, 2015 wblynch said: 

First developers (FDs) in reversal processes are specially formulated

Jun 29, 2018  #15

grainyvision First developers (FDs) in reversal processes are specially formulated

Jun 29, 2018  #16

grainyvision Thanks for the info.

Jun 29, 2018  #17

Even though this try wasn't successful I am interested to try again. I

 Accept Learn more…

Jun 29, 2018  #19

Joined: Feb 19, 2018 ~Ashley <3

Jul 2, 2018  #20

Jul 3, 2018  #21

My only complaint is it takes 30 ml of HC-110 per roll of 120 and I’m

Jul 3, 2018  #22

Joined: Feb 9, 2009

Jul 3, 2018  #23

Joined: Oct 26, 2015

Jul 3, 2018  #24

Joined: Oct 24, 2014 Cholentpot said: 

The formula uses HC-110 dilution A at 110°F. The strong dilution

Jul 3, 2018  #25

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