razgovarali fotografije photographs by Roland Halbe (RH)

interviewed by Pedro Pegenaute (PP)

Juan Rodríguez (JR)
portreti portraits Pedro Pegenaute

Vera Grimmer Maroje Mrduljaš

Dobra Good
arhitektura mora Architecture Has
preuzeti rizik to Assume Risk

¶ Punokrvni arhitekt snažnog iskaza, angažirani učitelj,
gostoljubivi hedonist, vječni optimist – sve je to Francisco,
za prijatelje Patxi, Mangado. Krenuvši iz male Navarre ispod
Pirineja, stigao je do Madrida, Sveučilišta Harvard, Lausanne.
Koliko god je Mangadov arhitektonski izraz individualan i
ekspresivan, uvijek je u relaciji sa svojim prirodnim ili urbanim
okolišem, kao i kulturološkom pozadinom. Riječi velikog
Norvežanina Sverrea Fehna: ‘dijalog s prošlošću moguć je
samo ako se pri tom manifestira suvremeno’, kao da označuju
važne Mangadove radove u povijesnim sredinama španjolskih
gradova.
Razgovarali u Pamploni
11. veljače 2011.
Interviewed in
Pamplona
11 February 2011
¶ A full-blooded architect with a strong expression, an
engaged teacher, a welcoming hedonist and an eternal
optimist – these are suitable words to describe Francisco
Mangado, or Patxi, as his friends call him. Starting from the
small town of Navarra beneath the Pyrenees, he made it all the
way to Madrid, Harvard University and Lausanne. No matter
how individual and expressive his architectural expression,
it is always linked with its natural or urban environment
and cultural background. The words of great Norwegian
Sverre Fehn, ‘the dialogue with the past is possible only if
contemporary is manifested’, seem fitting as a description
of Managado’s important works in the historical setting of
Spanish towns.

Francisco Mangado
Francisco Mangado
18 oris, broj 72, godina 2011 oris, number 72, year 2011 Francisco Mangado, Interview 19

Arheološki muzej Álave, Oris: Budući da već skicirate na prozirnom papiru, možda
Vitoria, Španjolska,
bismo mogli započeti razgovor o metodama kojima se služite
2002. – 2009.
u projektiranju. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Uvijek radim na
Álava Archaeology papiru koji naručujem iz Sjedinjenih Država. Možda je glupo
Museum, Vitoria,
jer tri role koštaju 250 dolara, uz trošak poštarine od 250
Spain,
2002 – 2009 eura, ali volim raditi s takvim papirom. Prije se moglo naći
takvog papira i kod nas, no danas svi rade na računalu. Ja volim
(PP)
stavljati crteže jedne preko drugih, presjek, tlocrte, razne
crteže. S tim materijalom radite u dvije dimenzije, ali kad
prekrivate jedan crtež drugim, dobijete privid tri dimenzije,
cjelovitog djela.
Oris: U isto vrijeme vidite nekoliko slojeva. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Tada dobijete predodžbu o čitavom projektu i to
je uzbudljivo. Problem s računalom je u tome što ni u jednom
trenutku nemate čitavu predodžbu, samo fragmente, no kod
stvaranja arhitekture presudno je da imate predodžbu cijelog
projekta.
Oris: Crteži na računalu i na papiru se razlikuju u jednoj bitnoj
stvari: na računalu nema kontinuiranog mjerila jer neprestano
povećavate i smanjujete crtež. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO:
Izuzetno je bitno uzeti u obzir pojam mjerila, odnosa s
20 oris, broj 72, godina 2011
Oris: Since you’re already sketching on transparent paper,
maybe we could start the discussion with your design
method. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: I always work with this
kind of paper. In fact, this paper comes from the United States.
Three rolls cost 250 US dollars, and the cost for mailing it is
250 euros. It is quite stupid, but I like to work with it. Years
ago, it was possible to find this paper here, so it was possible
to superpose different drawings, now everybody works with a
computer. What I like to do is to superpose – the section, the
plans, different drawings. With this material you’re working in
two dimensions, but when you superpose, you have this idea
of the three dimensions, of the complete work.
Oris: You get several layers at the same time. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: And then what happens, and what is fascinating,
is that you have the whole idea of the project. The problem
with a computer is that you never have the whole idea, you
have fragments, but for doing architecture it is absolutely
necessary to have the whole idea of the project.
Oris: There is also one significant difference between drawing
on a computer and on paper. On a computer you don’t have
a continuous scale because you zoom in and zoom out.
oris, number 72, year 2011
lokacijom, s kontekstom. Jedan od problema današnjice jest
da se arhitektura više bavi samim objektom nego odnosom
tog objekta s gradom, kontekstom i kulturološkom situacijom.
¶ I studenti se danas više bave arhitekturom kao objektom,
a izravna je posljedica toga da više brinu o izgledu objekta
nego o njegovom sadržaju. ¶ Ne mislim da razmišljanje
usredotočeno na objekt znači manjak odgovornosti. Objekt
je važan, ali problem nastaje kada zaboravite na reference u
odnosu s kontekstom i u odnosu sa svim onim elementima
koji mu daju smisao. Danas je daleko bitnije kako arhitektura
djeluje i izgleda nego kakva doista jest. ¶ Ne smatram da
arhitekt mora bilo što izumiti. Ono što mora jest razborito
i pametno analizirati problem i pokušati otkriti sve što
okružuje projekt, program, lokaciju, našu kulturu. Sve što
može ponuditi rješenje vezano uza sadržaj.
Oris: Rješenje već postoji, samo se stvarnost mora
transformirati u arhitektonski projekt. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Upravo tako, mi arhitekti moramo preobraziti
stvarne probleme, elemente koji su relevantni u nečemu što
seže ipak malo dalje no što društvo traži. Arhitektura ima
kapacitet pretvoriti stvarnost u nešto što je bolje, u nešto što
nas potiče i budi naše zanimanje, u nešto što može učiniti svijet
oko nas boljim. No u isto vrijeme, ne moramo ništa novo izumiti.
Smatram ovo pitanje izuzetno važnim. Kada dobijem narudžbu
za novi projekt, uvijek pokušam uroniti u atmosferu u kojoj će
on biti izveden. Pokušavam razmišljati o kontekstualiziranju
problema. ¶ Pitanje je kako čitati stvarnost, kako čitati
probleme koje morate riješiti. Nama je cilj poboljšati stvarnost,
no u isto je vrijeme morate i iščitavati, možda i očima koje će
Francisco Mangado, Intervju
¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: It is so important to take into
account the idea of scale, the relationship with the site,
with the context. One of the problems nowadays is that
architecture is much more concerned about the object than
about how this object is in a relationship with the city, with
the context, with the cultural situation. ¶ Students are now
much more concerned about architecture as an object. The
immediate consequence of this is that they are concerned
Arheološki muzej Álave,
Vitoria, Španjolska,
2002. – 2009.
Álava Archaeology
Museum, Vitoria, Spain,
2002 – 2009
(pp)
about the appearance of the object, not about the content
of the object. ¶ I don’t mean that thinking in terms of an
object is a lack of responsibility, the object is important, but
the problem is when you forget what the reference is in the
relationship with the context and the relationship with all the
elements which provide a sense to the object. ¶ Today how
architecture appears and looks is much more important than
how architecture is. ¶ I don’t believe architect has to invent
anything. What we have to do is to analyse the problem with
sensibility, with intelligence and try to discover everything
surrounding the project, the programme, the site, our culture.
Everything that provides the solution with contents.
Oris: The solution is already there, all we have to do is to
transform reality into the architectural project. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Exactly, what we have to do is to transform the
real problems, the elements that are relevant in something that
is going a little bit further than society claims. The capacity
of architecture is exactly to transform reality into something
that is better, that can encourage us, that can provide us with
interest, that can make the world surrounding us better. But
at the same time, we don’t have to invent anything. I think
Francisco Mangado, Interview 21
 otkriti stvarnost koja je drugačija od one vidljive na prvi pogled.
Oris: Zagovarate razuman pristup problemima. Što možete
reći o ulozi intuicije u arhitektonskom projektiranju?
¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Uloga intuicije u arhitekturi je
vrlo zanimljiva, za mene je ona vrlo bitna. No, u isto vrijeme
moram reći da intuicija mora biti temeljena i na kvalitetnom
iskustvu, inače me ne zanima. Ne smatram da je arhitektura
samo racionalan proces, već je riječ o kombinaciji analitičkog
pristupa i intuicije, što je sintetička aktivnost. Za mene je
intuicija nešto fantastično, druga vrsta znanja koja je upravo
to, sintetička. Ne shvaćam intuiciju bez rada s referencama,
bez sredstava za bavljenje arhitekturom. ¶ Mogli bismo reći
da je intuicija drugi korak. Daleko je dublja, zanimljivija i
intenzivnija od analitičkog znanja. Za intuiciju se morate
educirati, na njoj morate raditi, a onda će se na kraju vjerojatno
dogoditi to da nema granica između nje i znanja. Intuicija je
prema meni najrazvijeniji stupanj znanja.
Oris: Koliko je intuicija bila bitna tijekom projektiranja
Arheološkog muzeja u Vitoriji, posebice zbog vrlo originalnog
i iznenađujućeg načina vođenja svjetlosti? ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Vitoria je grad izuzetne snage, posebice
njezin centar. Ovdje je bitna gustoća grada. Riječ je o
srednjovjekovnom gradu pa je gustoća nešto što ne možete
samo očitati, to je i nešto što vas pritišće. Baš zbog te gustoće
povijesne jezgre pokušao sam ponuditi urbano rješenje
koje bi bilo u odnosu s idejom stvaranja praznine, praznine
koja predstavlja slobodni prostor ulaza. Moj je odgovor bio
upravo korištenje te praznine kao sustava za odgovor na
gustoću. ¶ Često puta je način naglašavanja ideja baš njihova
suprotnost. U tom kontekstu, svjetlost je najvažniji element,
najvažniji materijal u projektu. Osnovni je nedostatak takve
građevine u tako velikoj gustoći nedostatak svjetla. Zgrade
ne dišu, stoga je ideja svjetlosti vrlo bitna. Toliko je bitna
da sam svjetlost htio definirati fizički, tako da ona postane
najvažniji izložak u muzeju. ¶ U arheološkom muzeju tri su
stvari vrlo bitne: materijal, vrijeme – jer bez vremena ne bismo
mogli govoriti o arheološkim izlošcima, a treći je svjetlost –
činjenica samog otkrivanja izloška. Svjetlost je zastupljena
prizmama koje su geometrijski definirane i izgrađene, a koje
prolaze kroz cijelu zgradu, od vrha do dna. ¶ Te svjetlosne
prizme ne unose samo svjetlost u unutrašnjost prostora, ja
sam htio prikazati svjetlost i kao treći, najvažniji materijal u
bavljenju arheologijom.
Oris: U muzeju u Vitoriji možemo vidjeti i poimanje
materijalnosti. Kažete da materijalnost seže dublje od fizičkog
i poprima ideološko značenje. Bronca koju koristite stari te
tako simbolizira prolazak vremena. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO:
22 oris, broj 72, godina 2011
this question is extraordinarily important. When I receive a Dobro ste shvatili moj stav prema odnosu s materijalnošću. to define the light physically, and then the light is the most
commission for a new project, I always try to be involved in Arhitektura je nešto vrlo fizičko, tako da je materijalnost important piece that is displayed in the museum. ¶ In an
the atmosphere where the project is going to be done. I try apsolutno bitna. Sam materijal i način rada s njim daje archaeological museum, there are three materials that are
to understand, to think about what is contextualizing the nam mnoge resurse za bavljenje arhitekturom, i to je prva very important: the material, time – because without time it
problem. ¶ The question is how to read the reality, how to read tema. Druga tema je materijalnost kao ideološko stajalište. is not an archaeological piece – and the third one is the light
the problems that you have to solve. Our target is to improve ¶ Arhitektura ima odnos sa sociologijom, ekonomijom, – the fact of discovering the piece. The light is represented
the reality, but at the same time you have to read the reality, politikom i tako dalje, tako da je ta ideja odnosa s drugim with some prisms that are geometrically defined and built, and
perhaps with eyes that discover a reality that is different than disciplinama meni apsolutno bitna, upravo zbog osnaživanja which cross the whole building from the top to the bottom.
the one you can see at first glance. ideje da je arhitektura sama po sebi vrlo jaka disciplina. ¶ So the light-prisms not only provide light to the inside of
Oris: You are advocating a reasonable approach to problems. Danas se događa da mnogi arhitekti, upravo zato što the space, it is also that I wanted to represent that the light
What would you say about the role of intuition in designing im je važna pojavnost, govore da je s arhitekturom kao is this third most important material for doing archaeology.
architecture? ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Intuition for me disciplinom svršeno. Upotrijebio sam ideju materijalnosti Oris: But still in the Vitoria museum we can also see the
is fantastic. This is a very interesting question, the role of upravo kao čin usmjeren protiv toga, te se usredotočio na notion of materiality. You say that the materiality goes
intuition in architecture, for me it’s very important. But at materijalnost projekta. Arhitektura je materijalnost, o tome beyond the physical and acquires ideological meaning, so the
the same time I have to say that intuition has to be very well ne smije biti prijepora. ¶ Ako koristim materijal zato što ima bronze you use is getting older, symbolizing the passage of
trained. ¶ In my opinion, I am not interested in intuition if ideološko značenje, to znači da on može izraziti ideološki time. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: You understood my attitude
you have no experience. ¶ I don’t think that architecture is pristup projektu ili može biti u vrlo bliskom odnosu s njim. in the relationship with materiality very well. Architecture is
only a rational process. I think that it is a combination of an
analytical approach and intuition which is a synthetic action.
¶ For me, intuition, which is fantastic, is another kind of
knowledge which is precisely synthetic. I don’t understand
intuition without working with references, without the means
for doing architecture. ¶ We could say that intuition is another
step, much deeper, much more interesting, much more intense
than analytical knowledge. Intuition is something that you
have to educate, that you have to work on. That is absolutely
fantastic, and then what happens is that probably, in the
end, there are no borders between intuition and knowledge.
Intuition for me is the most developed step of knowledge.
Oris: How important was intuition in the design process of
the Archaeological Museum in Vitoria, especially in the very
original and surprising conducting of light? ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: The power of the city of Vitoria, the downtown
area, is great. The density of the city is so important, it’s a
medieval city, so the density is something that you can not
only read, but also something that is pressing you. Precisely
just because of this density of the historical city I tried to
give an urban answer that was in a relationship with the idea
of creating this void, this void that is the free space of entry,
so the answer was precisely using the void as a system for
answering the density. ¶ Often the way of underlining ideas
is precisely with the opposite of those ideas. In this context
the light was the most important element, the project’s
most important material. The lack of this kind of building
with density is the lack of light, it has no light, everything is
absolutely dense. The buildings don’t breathe there, so the
idea of light was very important, so important that I wanted
oris, number 72, year 2011 Francisco Mangado, Intervju Francisco Mangado, Interview 23
 Materijal koji sam koristio za muzej u Vitoriji vezan je uz
ideju arheologije. Smatram da je to vrlo suvisao proces.
Prema meni, materijal izražava puno više nego što on sam
jest, on predstavlja jednu ideju, izražava predanost samoj
arhitekturi. ¶ Ako smatram da su dva najvažnija elementa
arheologije vrijeme i svjetlost, onda moram upotrijebiti
materijal koji pokazuje protok vremena. On se mijenja i s
vremenom postaje sve vredniji. To može biti bronca, bakar
ili neki drugi materijal. Može biti i drvo, i njime sam se znao
koristiti. Prema tome, za mene odabir materijala, način rada,
pretvaranja i manipulacije njime zahtijeva ideološki smisao.
Nije to samo pitanje gradnje. Riječ je o daleko važnijem
skica kongresnog pitanju koje seže puno dublje od same gradnje.
centra i auditorija
Oris: Pitanje materijalnosti ne tiče se samo površina, tiče se i
Baluarte, Pamplona
cijele strukture zgrade, utjelovljenja građevine. ¶ FRANCISCO
sketch of Baluarte MANGADO: U muzeju u Vitoriji materijalnost nije samo
congress centre and
pitanje površine. To je pitanje te jedne ideje škrinje, potpuno
auditorium, Pamplona
zatvorenog komada, koju smo presjekli svjetlećim ‘cijevima’
kako bismo je otkrili. Razmišljanje o materijalnosti ilustrira
cijeli projekt. ¶ Takav je opći koncept projekta, ali to je i
prostorni koncept. Moja ideja o korištenju crne boje drveta
u unutrašnjosti točno izražava da je najvažnija stvar svjetlo
provođeno ‘cijevima’, koje ima važnost u toj tamnoj atmosferi.
Oris: I svjetlo je materijal. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Apsolutno.
Tamo ne postoji samo svjetlo, nego i volumeni svjetla. Svjetlost
se izražava volumenima koji presijecaju čitavu zgradu.
Oris: Kažete da se više ne može izmisliti novi prostor, jer su
se sve vrste prostora već pojavile tijekom povijesti arhitekture.
Kao primjer navodite fluidne prostore u baroku… ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Svi su prostori već stvoreni i proanalizirani, vi ih
još jedino možete proučavati. Ne moramo ništa izmišljati,
moramo samo razborito analizirati povijest. Sve je napravljeno,
sve je pokazano. Današnji arhitekti tvrde da govore novim
jezicima, ali kada pomnije razmislite, shvatit ćete da je sve to
24 oris, broj 72, godina 2011
something that is physical, so the materiality is absolutely
important. The material itself, and the way of working
with the material, provide us with an enormous amount of
resources for doing architecture, and that is the first issue.
The second issue is the materiality as an ideological stage.
¶ Architecture is something that is in a relationship with
sociology, with economics, with politics and so on. So the
idea of having a relationship with other disciplines is for me
absolutely important, precisely to reinforce the idea that
architecture is a very strong discipline in itself. Now what is
happening is that a lot of architects, precisely because they are
much more concerned with appearance, say that architecture
as a discipline is finished. Then, I used the idea on materiality
precisely as an action against it and I focus on the materiality
of the project. That architecture is materiality, is something
that can not be under discussion. ¶ If I use a material because
a material has an ideological meaning, then this signifies that
a material can express or can be in a very close relationship
with the ideological approach of the project. Then the material
I used in the Vitoria museum is something that is related with
the idea of archaeology. I think it’s quite a coherent process.
The material for me expresses much more than the material
itself, it expresses an idea, it expresses a commitment with
the architecture itself. ¶ If I think about time and light as the
two most important elements for archaeology, then I have
to use a material that represents the passage of time. That
changes and has more value with time. It is bronze, it could
be copper, it could be another material. It could be wood, and
I used wood, too. So for me, the selection, the way of working,
the way of transforming or manipulating the material require
an ideological sense. It’s not only a question of construction.
It’s a question that is much more important and goes much
further than the construction.
Oris: The issue of materiality is not related only to the
surfaces, it is related to the whole structure of the building
itself, to the embodiment of the structure. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: In the Vitoria museum, the materiality is not only
a question of the surface. It is a question of this idea of a coffer,
of a piece that is completely closed, as a coffer which we cross
with these light pipes in order to discover. The thinking about
materiality illustrates the whole project. ¶ So it’s the general
concept of the project, but it is also in the spatial concept.
So the idea of how I use the black colour of the wood inside
precisely expressed that the most important thing is the piped
light, that has an importance in this dark atmosphere.
Oris: Light is also a material. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO:
Absolutely. There is not only light, there are some volumes of
oris, number 72, year 2011
već učinjeno tijekom pedesetih i šezdesetih godina prošlog light. Then the light is expressed through these volumes that
stoljeća. ¶ Bile su to sjajne godine. Tada je najvažniji materijal cut the whole building.
bila snaga volje da se učini nešto drugačije. Danas nema snage Oris: You also say that there is no invention of space as a
volje, postoji samo tržište koje od arhitekture i arhitekata traži novelty in itself, because all types of spaces have already
samo da ponavljaju oblike koji su davno prije bili puno bolje appeared throughout the history of architecture, for
napravljeni. example, you refer to the baroque fluid spaces… ¶ FRANCISCO
Oris: Je li vam cilj da ljudi koji žive u vašim prostorima MANGADO: All the spaces have been done and analyzed. The
budu radosni u njima? Ima li mjesta užitku u arhitekturi? only thing you have to do is to study them. We don’t have
¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Mislim da je to apsolutno bitno. to invent anything. We have to analyse with sensibility the
Ne mogu vjerovati zašto kuća ne bi trebala biti udobna za history, the architecture itself. Everything has been done,
život. Udobnost je oduvijek bila cilj. Zašto ne? Ideja uživanja everything has been demonstrated. Even the architects
u arhitekturi, u osjećaju udobnosti, lijepim pogledima, nowadays who say that they are working in new languages,
prostorima s dobrom orijentacijom, kvalitetnoj izvedbi – zašto but if you think carefully, you will find that everything was
vas smatraju konzervativnim ili staromodnim arhitektom done during the 50s and 60s. ¶ These years were fantastic. The
ako govorite o takvim stvarima, zašto? ¶ Mi arhitekti često most important material they used then was the willpower to
posve zaboravljamo da stvaramo arhitekturu za ljude. Ako do something different. And now, there’s no willpower, there’s
razmišljate o ljudima koji će živjeti u vašoj arhitekturi i only the market which has the domain of architecture, and
uživati u njoj, onda vas smatraju nezanimljivim. Čini se da architects repeat shapes that were better done a long time ago.
je kaligrafski pristup danas najzanimljiviji. ¶ Arhitektura ima Oris: Is it your goal for the people inhabiting your spaces to
zadaću poboljšati prostore, poboljšati gradove, poboljšati experience joy? Is there a point of enjoyment in architecture?
javne prostore, omogućiti ljudima da žive bolje. Mislim da je ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: I think that it’s absolutely important.
to vrlo elementarna stvar. Arhitekturom sam se počeo baviti It’s unbelievable to say a house doesn’t have to be comfortable.
imajući na umu upravo ta pitanja. ¶ Moje poimanje arhitekture Comfort was a target for ages. Why not? The idea of enjoying
nije raditi ono što društvo traži, ja želim dati puno više no što architecture, of feeling comfortable, of having wonderful
društvo traži od mene. To je ideja arhitekture, dati više. views, of having spaces with good orientation, with quality
Oris: I ja sam mišljenja da je jako bitno stvarati dobru – if you are speaking about these things, why are you
arhitekturu. Arhitektura koja će biti stvaran kulturološki considered a conservative or old-fashioned architect? Why?
doprinos trebala bi imati sposobnost ili mogućnost da ¶ We architects often completely forget this idea that we are
predvidi budućnost. U tome je razlika između obične zgrade, making architecture for people. If you are thinking about the
obične gradnje i arhitekture s velikim ‘A’. Dobra arhitektura people who are going to live in and enjoy your architecture,
ima kapacitet apsorbirati buduće događaje, buduće potrebe then you are considered someone who is not interesting.
i buduće zahtjeve. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: U potpunosti Today it seems that the most interesting approach is only
sam u to uvjeren. Upravo to pokušavam objasniti svojim the calligraphic approach. ¶ Architecture is something that
studentima. Moj pojam služenja je upravo dati više no is made to improve spaces, to improve cities, to improve
što društvo traži. Na taj se način ide naprijed, naprijed u public spaces, for making people live better. I think that
budućnost. Drugi je stav samo servilnost, što je nešto is something that is very elemental. When I started doing
posve drugo. ¶ Danas se događa da je većina arhitekture, architecture, it was precisely because I was concerned about
komercijalne arhitekture posvećena samo ideji gradnje. these questions. ¶ My idea of architecture is not to do what
Riječ je o ekonomskom pitanju, tako da je to odgovor na society claims, I want to give more than society claims of me.
tržište, no postoji još jedan odgovor na tržište, a to je This is the idea of architecture, to give more.
stvaranje spektakala. Oba predstavljaju servilnost, niti Oris: I also think it is quite important that good architecture,
jedan ne anticipira bilo što. Oba ta stava su izravan odgovor architecture which is a real cultural contribution should
na današnje tržište. Tu nema razlike. Neki moji klijenti, have this quality or ability to anticipate the future. This is
građevinski poduzetnici kažu: ‘Želimo da napravite veliku the difference between mere building, mere construction,
zgradu jer se brand Mangado jako dobro prodaje.’ Njima and architecture with a capital ‘A’. Good architecture really
arhitektura nije bitna. has the capacity to absorb future events, future needs and
Oris: Ali da bismo ostvarili tu mogućnost da nešto future demands. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: I am absolutely
Francisco Mangado, Intervju Francisco Mangado, Interview 25

Jahački centar, anticipiramo, arhitektura bi trebala biti vrlo solidna u smislu
Ultzama, Navarra,
materijalnosti, detalja, konstrukcije i tako dalje. Smatram
Španjolska,
2006. – 2008. da ste vi u tom aspektu arhitekture pravi majstor. S tim
u vezi, imamo teoriju ekonomije arhitekture, ekonomije
Equestrian Centre, detalja i tako dalje. Možete li opisati svoj pristup, stav ili
Ultzama. Navarra,
metodu? ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Vrlo zanimljivo pitanje.
Spain, 2006 – 2008
Ljudi u odnosu na moju arhitekturu često smatraju da je moj
(PP) pojam discipline vrlo konzervativan, da me brine samo pitanje
materijalizacije, odnosa s lokacijom. Zaista, to i je nešto što
naglašavam. ¶ Smatram da imamo vrlo specifičnu disciplinu. U
isto vrijeme smatram da očito branim vrlo blizak i intenzivan
odnos s drugim disciplinama, jer arhitektura je tu da služi.
Naš pristup društvu mora doći iz više različitih smjerova, to
je apsolutno bitno. ¶ Prihvaćam svoju odgovornost. Znam i
posve sam uvjeren da imam stvarnu društvenu odgovornost,
da u konačnici ja moram donijeti odluku vezano uz lokaciju,
gradnju, program i ekonomski dio projekta. Nitko drugi
ne može donijeti te odluke, samo arhitekt. Važno je imati
26 oris, broj 72, godina 2011
convinced of this. This is precisely what I am trying to
explain to my students. My idea of service is precisely to
give more than society is claiming. It’s going ahead, going
into the future. The other attitude is only servility, which is
very different. ¶ What happens nowadays is that the majority
of architectural, commercial architecture is committed only
with the idea of construction. It’s an economic question, so
it’s an answer to the market, but there’s another answer to
the market, which is making spectacles. Both mean servility.
¶ None of them anticipate anything. Both attitudes are a direct
answer to the market today. There is no difference. I have
some clients, developers, saying ‘We want you to do a big
building, because the Mangado brand sells very well.’ They
are not concerned about architecture.
Oris: But in order to achieve this possibility, to anticipate
anything, architecture should be very solid regarding
materiality, regarding detailing, regarding construction and
so on. I think you are a real master regarding this aspect
oris, number 72, year 2011
bitne informacije, a te informacije dolaze upravo iz odnosa s
drugim disciplinama, ali uz branjenje moje vlastite discipline.
Pokušavam iskoristiti svoje znanje ekonomista da shvatim
društvo, ali u isto vrijeme ne donosim ekonomsku odluku, ja
stvaram arhitekturu. ¶ Kao prvo, trebate znanje koje dolazi
iz različitog pristupa, a drugo pitanje ovdje je rizik, kapacitet
za preuzimanje rizika. Dobra arhitektura mora riskirati. Ja
svojim studentima običavam govoriti: ‘Vaše je zanimanje
stvarati dobru arhitekturu, no stvaranje dobre arhitekture
podrazumijeva i rizik i greške.’ ¶ Rizik mora biti posljedica
znanja, proučavanja, istraživanja, svih tih stvari. Ne smijete
se bojati grešaka, ali u isto vrijeme morate biti vrlo ozbiljni,
i ozbiljno proučavati. Danas svi govore o spekulaciji. Taj se
termin često koristi u arhitekturi, ali mene spekulacija nimalo
ne zanima.
Oris: Što smatrate spekulacijom? ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO:
Termin ‘spekulacija’ je vrlo slab. Više volim kad se govori
o istraživanju. Istraživanje je daleko dublje i ozbiljnije, i
Francisco Mangado, Intervju
Jahački centar, Ultzama,
Navarra, Španjolska,
2006. – 2008.
Equestrian Centre,
Ultzama. Navarra, Spain,
2006 – 2008
(PP)
of architecture. Related to this, we have this theory of the
economy of architecture, economy of detailing and so on,
so could you explain your approach, attitude or method?
¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: This is a very interesting question,
because often the people in a relationship with my architecture
consider that my idea of discipline is very conservative, that
I am concerned only about the question of materialization,
relationship with the site. In fact, this is something that I
underline. ¶ I believe that we have a specific discipline. At
the same time, I think that apparently I defend a very close
and intensive relationship with other disciplines because
architecture is for serving. Our approach to society has to come
from many different directions, this is absolutely important.
¶ I accept my responsibility. I know and I am absolutely
convinced that I have a real social responsibility, that in the
end I have to make a decision in regard to the relationship
with the site, with the construction, with the programme,
with the economics of the project. Nobody else has to make
Francisco Mangado, Interview 27

Plaza de Dalí, Avenida zahtijeva znanje. Odnosi se na dugi rok, a spekulacija se bavi
de Felipe II, Madrid,
trenutačnim odgovorima na zahtjeve tržišta. Spekulacija je
Španjolska,
2001. – 2004. pojam podudaran sa slabošću ili nečim brzim i kratkoročnim.
Oris: Jedna bi druga tema bila odnos arhitekture i prirode.
Dalí Square, Avenida de Izrazili ste misao da bi arhitektura trebala nadvladati prirodu,
Felipe II, Madrid, Spain,
stopiti se s njom ili raditi s kontrastom. Kod jahačkog centra
2001 – 2004
Ultzama radili ste u prirodi, i tamo je više riječ o kontrastu
(RH) nego o stapanju. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Meni je priroda
izuzetno bitna. Kod arhitekture u vrlo bliskom odnosu s
prirodom postoje dva stava: gradnja u prirodi može biti u
kontrastu s prirodom ili se stopiti s njom. Ta su dva stava
po mojem mišljenju konstanta tijekom povijesti. Postojao
je i stav da je priroda toliko fantastična da se arhitektura s
njom ne može natjecati, nego da je možete samo podrediti
prirodi. ¶ Postoji i stav koji upravo reafirmira apstrakciju,
kapacitet za stvaranje apstrakcije. Meni je najzanimljivija
ona arhitektura koja je stvorena s idejom apstrakcije. ¶ Koja
je to jedina stvar koja se može natjecati s prirodom? Grad.
Grad je predivan kao ideja, neovisno o problemima koje grad
može imati, ali kao ekonomska i socijalna ideja, kao ideja
apstrakcije, grad je po mojem mišljenju predivan svijet koji
28 oris, broj 72, godina 2011
this decision. Who can make a decision in relationship to the
space, to the light, to the construction? Only the architect.
And what is important is to have very important information.
This information comes precisely from the relationship with
other disciplines, but defending my own discipline. I’m trying
to use my knowledge as an economist to understand society,
but at the same time I am not making an economic decision,
I am creating architecture. ¶ You need for one the knowledge,
coming from a different approach, and the second question
is risk, the capacity for assuming risk. Good architecture has
to assume risk. I usually tell my students ‘Your profession is
doing good architecture, but trying to do good architecture
is synonymous with assuming risk and committing mistakes.’
¶ Your risk has to be a consequence of knowledge, of study, of
investigation, all of these things. Never be afraid of making
mistakes, but at the same time you have to be very serious
and study seriously. Nowadays everybody’s talking about
speculation, it’s a term very often used in architecture. I’m
not interested in speculation at all.
Oris: What do you mean by speculation? ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Usually, my opinion is that the term speculation is
oris, number 72, year 2011
se ravnopravno može natjecati s prirodom. Grad je posljedica
apstrakcije. To je djelo čovječanstva, njegov resurs.
Oris: Smatrate li da je vaše stajalište donekle definirano
urbanom tradicijom Španjolske i Navarre, posebice zbog svih
tih krasnih srednjovjekovnih gradova koji su na neki način
možda utjecali na vaš intelektualni profil? ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Ne smatram da je to u nekom bliskom odnosu s
mojim neposrednim kontekstom. Možete li zamisliti predivni,
fantastični, veličanstveni dvorac usred prirode? To je nešto
predivno. Partenon – predivan klasični hram na vrhu brdu, s
pogledom na more – narušava li on prirodu ili je uljepšava? Ja
smatram da je uljepšava.
Oris: Nesumnjivo da je tako, ali ako pogledate, primjerice,
rad Alvara Aalta ili nekih divnih nordijskih arhitekata, oni
su isto radili s konceptom apstrakcije, ali su se i svi na neki
način referirali na prirodu. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Da, ali
oni ne napuštaju ideju apstrakcije. Ja se divim toj organskoj
arhitekturi iz više razloga. To je u isto vrijeme i organska i
apstraktna arhitektura. Oni se služe prirodnim materijalima,
koriste bliski odnos između unutrašnjosti prostora i njegovoga
vanjskog dijela. Smatram da je i taj dio bitan, ali to nikako ne
Francisco Mangado, Intervju
Trg Pey – Berland,
Bordeaux, Francuska,
1998. – 2003.
Pey–Berland Square,
Bordeaux, France,
1998 – 2003
(RH)
very weak. I prefer to speak about investigation. Investigation
is much deeper, much more serious, requiring knowledge. ¶ It
concerns the long term, and speculation concerns immediate
answers to the market. Speculation is synonymous with
weakness or something quick.
Oris: Another issue is the relation of architecture and nature.
You have expressed the thought that architecture should
overcome nature in fact, blend in or work with contrast. In the
Ulzama Equestrian Centre, you were working in nature, and it
was more a matter of contrast than blending in. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: For me, nature is something very important.
There are two attitudes when you have architecture with a
close relationship with nature. To build in, to contrast or to
blend in. These two attitudes in my opinion have been constants
throughout history. There was an attitude that nature is so
fantastic that it is not possible to compete with it, and the
only possibility is precisely to subordinate your architecture to
nature. ¶ There is another attitude which is precisely to reaffirm
the abstraction, the capacity for making abstraction. For me,
the most interesting architecture is architecture that has been
made with the idea of abstraction. ¶ What is the only thing that
Francisco Mangado, Interview 29
 znači da se ne bavite apstrakcijom.
Oris: Kad govorimo o gradu, koji su vaši kriteriji za stvaranje
prostora kao što su Plaza de Dalì u Madridu ili trg oko katedrale
u Bordeauxu, koji Kenneth Frampton u svojim tekstovima
ističe kao ključan za vaš rad? ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO:
Najvažniji dio toga javnog prostora je već bio dovršen, tako
da se moj projekt u biti samo bavio reorganizacijom prostora.
Za mene je javni prostor najvažnija stvar u gradu, vjerujem u
njega i njegovu važnost. Upravo ono što kritiziram u mnogim
novim gradovima jest zanemarivanje javnog prostora. Možda
sam romantičan, ali vjerujem da što bi javni prostor bio
kvalitetniji, to bi kvalitetniji bio i život pojedinaca, a bilo bi i
manje socijalnih razlika. Vjerujem u kapacitet javnog prostora,
vjerujem da je on apsolutno bitan ne samo zbog sebe, nego
zato što pridonosi važnosti arhitekture. ¶ Primjerice, kongresni
centar Baluarte zamišljen je kao javni prostor. Najvažniji dio
zgrade bio je novi trg koji smo stvorili projektom u gradu, kao
sustav pristupa zgradi. To je mjesto gdje se izvode performansi,
ljudi se tamo nalaze i razgovaraju, posebice u proljeće i ljeto.
Trg pridonosi važnosti same zgrade. I kod Ávile je isti slučaj,
odlučio sam stvoriti vrlo bitan i otvoren trg između drevnog
zida i nove zgrade. Ako javnog prostora nema, ja ga izmislim.
U Ultzami je glavno pitanje bilo pitanje odnosa s prirodom,
ali ako analizirate njegovu organizaciju, čak i on sadrži ideju
javnog prostora.
Oris: Čak ste i kod Santiaga de Compostele stvorili neku
vrstu unutarnjega, polujavnog prostora, kao i kod ureda za
tvrtku Gamesa Eólica. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Upravo tako.
Riječ je o prostoru između vanjskog i unutarnjeg. Da se taj
prostor nalazi vani, tada ne bi bilo stvarne gradacije javnog
prostora, to bi jednostavno bila priroda. Zgrada je stoga dobila
prostor koji bi se mogao shvatiti kao filtar između interijera
i eksterijera, i to je na neki način gradacija javnog prostora.
Takvi elementi daju značaj arhitekturi. Oduševim se svaki put
is able to compete with nature? The city. The city is wonderful
as an idea, independently of the problems that the city might
have, but as an economic or social idea, as an idea of abstraction,
the city is a wonderful world that can compete in balance with
nature, in my opinion. ¶ The city is a consequence of abstraction.
It’s a work of mankind, a resource of mankind.
Oris: Do you think that your position may be to some
extent defined by the urban tradition of Spain and Navarra
in particular because of these beautiful medieval cities
which somehow may have shaped your intellectual profile?
¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: I don’t think it’s in a close relationship
with my immediate context. Can you imagine a wonderful,
fantastic and very powerful castle in the middle of nature? It’s
wonderful. The Parthenon or – a wonderful classical temple on
the top of a hill, looking to the sea. Is it destroying nature, or is
it improving nature? For me, it’s improving.
Oris: For sure, there is no doubt about it, but for example, if
you look at the work of Alvar Aalto or some Nordic architects
who were magnificent and also operated with the concept of
abstraction, they all refer to nature in some way. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Yes, but they never abandon this idea of abstraction.
I admire this organic architecture for many reasons. ¶ It’s
organic architecture, but it is abstract architecture as well. They
use natural materials, they use the close relationship between
the inside of a space and the outside of the space, I think that
this is important too, but this does not mean that you are not učiniti jest pokazati da je građanima zanimljivo, korisno especially in the spring and summer. ¶ It provides importance Baluarte, Kongresni centar
making an exercise in abstraction. i plodonosno doći arhitektu po rješenje. Mi im možemo to the building itself. In Avilá it’s the same, I decided there to i auditorij, Pamplona,
Navarra, Španjolska,
Oris: Speaking about the city, what are your criteria for ponuditi više od onoga što tržište nudi. create a very important and open square between the ancient 1999. – 2003.
creating spaces like the Plaza de Dali in Madrid or the plaza Oris: Još jedno pitanje o raznolikosti u vašem radu: ako wall and the new building. If I have no public space, I invent
surrounding Bordeaux Cathedral which Kenneth Frampton usporedimo Baluarte s dvoranom u Teluadi, može se vidjeti da public space. In Ulzama, the main issue is the relationship Baluarte congress
has especially stressed in his texts as crucial for your work? odgovarate na drugačiji način, ali smatram da je riječ o sličnoj with nature, but if you analyse how it is organized, just an idea centre and auditorium,
Pamplona, Navarra,
¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: The most important part of the metodologiji kad je u pitanju preciznost, briga o lokaciji, klimi about public space is managed there. Even there. Spain, 1999 – 2003
public space was done, was finished. In fact, my project was i tako dalje. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: U pravu ste. Mislim Oris: Even in Santiago de Compostela you invented some
just to reorganize this space. ¶ For me the most important da ste dobro to shvatili. Moram vam objasniti da postoji sort of inner, semi-public space, just like in the offices for (PP)

kad dobijem narudžbu za javni prostor, iako ga ja pokušavam
stvoriti u svim svojim projektima. Drugim riječima, moje su
zgrade obično odgovor s javnim prostorom, nebitno postoji
li on već ili je stvoren u mojoj glavi.
Oris: To nas opet dovodi do ideje da se društvu i javnosti
ponudi više nego što se očekuje. Upravo zato ljudi rade
javne prostore za artikulaciju zgrada. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Upravo tako. Što je jedina stvar koju arhitekt
može dati? Inteligencija. Hoću reći, ako arhitektov odgovor
nije inteligentan, za nekoliko godina više nećemo biti važni.
Španjolska udruga arhitekata se neprestano žali kako je uloga
arhitekata u Španjolskoj u opadanju. Ali to je naša greška, jer
našim odgovorima manjka inteligencije. Ono što mi moramo
thing in a city is public space. I believe in public space and the
importance of public space. Precisely what I criticize in many
new cities is that they forget public space. Perhaps I’m very
romantic, but I believe that if the quality of the public space is
better, everyone will live better and that there would be fewer
social differences. I believe in the capacity of public space, I
believe that it is absolutely important not only because of itself,
but public space also provides importance to architecture. For
instance, the Baluarte Congress Centre is conceived in terms
of public space. The most important part of the building was
the new square that we create with the project in the city, as
a system for access to the building. ¶ It’s a place where people
do some performances, a place where people meet and talk,
razlika između traženja identiteta i traženja jedinstva. Mene
zanima ideja jedinstva, a ne tražim identitet, jer smatram
da iza koncepta identiteta obično stoji način traženja slike
koja se ponavlja neovisno o programu, lokaciji, kontekstu ili
situaciji. Ta ideja identiteta je danas postala vrlo bitna, jer
tržište traži vrlo jednostavne oblike koji će biti prepoznatljivi
i koji će se vrlo dobro prodavati. Ne želim da me se automatski
prepoznaje po zgradi zato što je uzbudljiva. Mene više zanima
jedinstvo. Jedinstvo je istoznačno s brigom za ista pitanja.
Mene više zanima lokacija, materijalnost, prostor, na isti
način tretiram presjek ili sekvence između različitih prostora.
Iste prioritete imam i kad je program u pitanju. Jedinstvo mi
omogućuje okvir u kojem je moguće dati različiti odgovor na
Gamesa Eólica. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Exactly. It’s in the
space that is between the outside and the inside. If this space
was outside, it wouldn’t be a real public space gradation, it
would be just nature. Then the building got a space that could
be understood as a filter between the interior and exterior, and
it is a kind of gradation of the public space. These elements
provide significance to architecture. Whenever I receive a
commission for a public space I am very happy. But in all my
projects I try to create public spaces, or in other words, my
buildings are usually an answer of the public space, no matter
if it exists or if it is created in my mind.
Oris: This again brings us to this idea of offering society
and the public more then they expect. That is exactly why

30 oris, broj 72, godina 2011 oris, number 72, year 2011 Francisco Mangado, Intervju Francisco Mangado, Interview 31
 Centar za nove Zgrada ureda tvrtke
tehnologije, Santiago de Gamesa Eólica, Sarriguren,
Compostela, Španjolska, Navarra, Španjolska,
2004. – 2007. 2003. – 2007.

Centre for New Office building for

Technologies, Santiago Gamesa Eólica,
de Compostela, Spain, Sarriguren, Navarra,
2004 – 2007 Spain, 2003 – 2007

(RH) (RH)

različite probleme i različite lokacije s istim promišljanjem
arhitekture. ¶ Mene daleko više zanima stvaranje jedinstva
koncepta nego identitet kaligrafija. To je vrlo bitno. Ja uvijek
svojim studentima govorim da se potrude stvoriti vlastito
jedinstvo, neka se ne brinu o identitetu. ¶ Još do prije nekoliko
godina identitet nije bio nešto oko čega su ljudi brinuli. Sada je
people are providing public spaces for the articulation of
buildings. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Exactly. What is the
only thing an architect can give? Intelligence, I mean, if the
architect’s answer is not full of intelligence, we’re not going
to be important in later years. The Architectural Association
in Spain complains continuously because the role of architects

Zgrada ureda tvrtke

Gamesa Eólica, Sarriguren,
Navarra, Španjolska,
2003. – 2007.

Office building for

Gamesa Eólica,
Sarriguren, Navarra,
Spain, 2003 – 2007

(pp)

32 oris, broj 72, godina 2011 oris, number 72, year 2011 Francisco Mangado, Intervju Francisco Mangado, Interview 33
 Auditorium Teulade,
Teulada-Moraira, Alicante,
Španjolska, 2004. – 2011.

Teulada Auditorium,
Teulada-Moraira, Alicante,
Spain, 2004 – 2011

(JR)

postao bitan, jer je postao jedan od zahtjeva tržišta. A tržište in Spain is going down. But it is our fault because our answers Auditorium Teulade,
Teulada-Moraira,
je vrlo jednostavno i ne treba dubinu, ne treba misli i ideje, have been lacking intelligence. What we have to do is to
Alicante, Španjolska,
ono treba samo izgled. ¶ To baš i nije zanimljivo, to pitanje demonstrate that it is interesting, useful and fruitful for a 2004. – 2011.
jezika i stila, mene više zanima promišljanje, jer misli mi citizen to come to an architect for an answer. We can be more
omogućavaju otvorenu okvirnu strukturu. Primjerice, glupo than they can find on the market. Teulada Auditorium,
Teulada-Moraira,
je dati isti odgovor za kongresni i izložbeni centar u Ávili, Oris: Another question about the diversity of your works:
Alicante, Spain,
gdje postoji topografski problem jer se nalazi blizu predivnih if we compare Baluarte and this new auditorium in Teluada, 2004 – 2011
povijesnih zidina, kao i za projekt za tvrtku Gamesa Eólica, you are answering in a different way, but I think that the
(JR)
što je uredska zgrada na periferiji. Zašto dati isti odgovor za methodology is similar in this rigour, in this taking care of
dvije posve različite stvari? U isto vrijeme, sviđa mi se što the site, climate etc. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: You’re right.

34 oris, broj 72, godina 2011 oris, number 72, year 2011 Francisco Mangado, Intervju Francisco Mangado, Interview 35

Kongresni i izložbeni ljudi koji vide te zgrade kažu da je vidljiv stav da se radi sa
gradski centar, Ávila,
sličnim angažmanom, a onda tek smatraju da iza njih stoji
Španjolska, 2003. – 2009.
isti arhitekt. Mene posebice brine razlika između identiteta
Congress and i jedinstva. Rafael Moneo je arhitekt koji je razvio jedinstvo.
Exhibitions Municipal
Njegove se zgrade razlikuju ovisno o lokaciji, no u isto vrijeme
Centre, Ávila Spain,
2003 – 2009 možete prepoznati isti angažman iza svakog projekta.
Oris: Ipak, sigurno ste razvili neku vrstu osobnoga
(PP)
arhitektonskog jezika koji se razvija iz tih dubljih uvida,
misli i interesa, ali kada netko pogleda vaše zgrade, uočit će
određene prepoznatljive elemente. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO:
Smatram da je riječ o prepoznatljivim elementima, jer postoji
36 oris, broj 72, godina 2011
I think you understood this very well. I need to explain to
you that there is a difference between looking for an identity
and looking for unity. I’m interested in this idea of unity, I’m
not interested at all in the idea of identity. I don’t chase an
identity, because for me, behind the concept of identity is
usually a way of looking for an image, for an image that is
repeated independently of the programme, independently
of the site, independently of the context, independently of
the situation. I wouldn’t like to be recognized immediately
with the building because it is exciting. ¶ This idea of identity
has become very important nowadays, where the market
oris, number 72, year 2011
način na koji radim kompoziciju svojih zgrada, kako pravim
otvore, koju vrstu materijala koristim, kako sastavljam
kompoziciju masa, to mi je jako bitno, kao i ideja izdubljivanja
volumena. ¶ Nema sumnje da koristim slične načine rada.
Možete ih prepoznati, ali najbitnije je da to ne bude očigledno,
da morate proučiti projekt da biste prepoznali to jedinstvo.
¶ Ponavljam, situacije se u potpunosti razlikuju od projekta
do projekta. Primjerice, kongresni centar u Palma de Mallorci
i centar u Alicanteu su izloženi mediteranskom svjetlu, što je
apsolutno bitno. Postoje određena rješenja za sredozemno
svjetlo i južnu orijentaciju. Mediteransko svjetlo nema nikakve
Francisco Mangado, Intervju
requires very easy shapes to be identifiable and to be very
well sold. I’m more interested in unity. Unity is synonymous
for concern about the same questions, I’m concerned about
the site, I’m concerned about the materiality, I’m concerned
about the space, I have the same way of treating the section
or the sequence in between different spaces. I have the same
priorities when I speak about the programme. ¶ Unity provides
me with a framework, where it is possible to give a different
answer to different problems and different sites with the same
thoughts about architecture. ¶ I am much more interested
in creating a unity of concept than identity of calligraphies.
That is very important and I always tell my students to try
to look to create your own unity, don’t be concerned about
identity. ¶ Identity is something that was not a concern years
ago. It has become a concern now, because it is a requirement
of the market. And the market, which is very simple, does
not need depth, it does not need thoughts and ideas, it just
needs appearance. ¶ It is not very interesting, the question
of the language, of style, I am much more interested in the
question of thoughts, because thoughts provide me with
quite an open frame structure. Is it stupid, for instance, to
give the same answer in Ávila, with a topographical problem,
close to a wonderful historical wall, which is an auditorium,
as when making Gamesa Eólica which is an office building and
is in some outskirts? Why does it have to be the same with
something that is completely different? At the same time, I
like that the people who see these buildings are saying that
it’s the attitude that we are working with similar concerns, and
then, they think that the same architect is behind them. I’m
especially concerned about the difference between identity
and unity. Rafael Moneo is an architect who has developed
unity. His buildings are very different depending on the site.
But at the same time you recognize that there are similar
concerns behind each project.
Oris: Still, you surely developed some sort of a personal
architectural language which develops from this deeper
insight, thoughts and concerns, because when someone
looks at your buildings, there are some sort of recognizable
elements. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: I think that there are
recognizable elements, for there is a way how I make the
composition of my buildings, how I open holes, the kind of
materials that I use, the composition of masses that is very
important to me, the idea of excavating a volume is very
important to me. ¶ Undoubtedly you use some similar ways
of working. You can recognize it, but the most important
thing is that is not obvious and you need to study the project
to recognize this unity. ¶ And I repeat, the situation of each
Francisco Mangado, Interview 37
 Španjolski paviljon veze s ostatkom Španjolske. Dubina zidova mora biti puno
na Expou, Zaragoza,
veća upravo zbog zagrijavanja i tako dalje. Takvo što nije
Španjolska, 2008.
moguće izvesti ovdje u Navarri. Ovdje trebam prozore koji će
Spanish Pavilion for biti u istoj ravnini sa zidovima. U Ávili nema te dubine. Drugim
Expo, Zaragoza, Spain,
riječima, postoje različiti odgovori za različite probleme i
2008
kontekste.
(RH) Oris: Tijekom čitave svoje karijere podučavali ste, ali i
prakticirali arhitekturu. Danas sve više i više pišete. Nekako
mi se čini da ulazite u novo polje bavljenja arhitekturom, jer
bavljenje arhitekturom znači i pisanje o njoj. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Problem je u tome što se do prije nekoliko godina
nisam usuđivao pisati o arhitekturi, možda zato što bi to bilo
suviše pretenciozno. Doista smatram da je jako teško pisati
i da vam za to treba određeno iskustvo. Morao sam pisati
kako bih sam sebe pojasnio. Po meni, nije moguće odvojiti
pisanje o arhitekturi, podučavanje i prakticiranje arhitekture.
Danas, nakon 25 godina prakticiranja arhitekture, osjećam se
sigurnijim kad su pisanje i kritike u pitanju.
Oris: Recite nam nešto o vašoj arhitektonskoj osobnosti,
koji su vaši korijeni, tko su bili vaši junaci kad ste započinjali
svoj arhitektonski život? ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Najprije
sam studirao ekonomiju. Sa šesnaest sam se godina pokušao
upisati na arhitekturu jer sam vrlo brzo završio srednju
školu. Tamo mi je jedan profesor rekao da se ne mogu baviti
arhitekturom jer moj intelektualni kapacitet nije vezan uz
arhitekturu, da sam sjajan za matematiku i neka potražim
neki drugi studij.
Oris: Zašto niste poslušali profesora? ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Tijekom šezdesetih i sedamdesetih godina
osmislili su test inteligencije na temelju kojeg bi vam rekli
hoćete li biti inženjer, liječnik ili nećete biti ništa. U to je
doba povjerenje u psihološke testove bilo nevjerojatno. Bio
sam jako mlad. Želio sam se baviti arhitekturom, ali o njoj
nisam ništa znao. ¶ Dolazim iz obitelji bankara, tako da su svi
htjeli da studiram ekonomiju. Odlučio sam se za najvažniju
ekonomsku školu u Španjolskoj, gdje sam započeo studij
ekonomije. Na drugoj godini mi je studij dosadio, imao sam
osamnaest godina. Završio sam prvi stupanj i tada se odlučio
okušati u arhitekturi. Primili su me jer su moji rezultati na
ekonomiji bili jako dobri. Nisam imao prilike raditi s velikim
i bitnim arhitektima, tako da sam završio studij s 23 godine
i počeo raditi na natječajima. Sve sam završio u pet godina,
bio sam jako brz. ¶ Volio bih da sam mogao raditi s dobrim
arhitektom, jer Navarra je bila vrlo mala regija s arhitektonskom
školom koja je bila mala tijekom sedamdesetih. U to vrijeme,
Španjolska je imala samo šest arhitektonskih škola: u Madridu,
Barceloni, Valenciji, Sevilli, La Laguni i Pamploni. Pet javnih i
38 oris, broj 72, godina 2011
project is completely different. ¶ For example, the Congress
Centre in Palma de Mallorca and the centre in Alicante, are
close to the Mediterranean light, so that has been absolutely
important. There are particular answers to Mediterranean light
and a southerly orientation. The light of the Mediterranean
has nothing to do with the rest of Spain. The deepness of the
wall has to be much greater just because of how the light
heats and so on. It is not possible to do the same thing here
in Navarra. Here I need windows exactly in the same plane as
the wall. In Ávila, this depth is not present. In other words,
there are different answers to different problems and different
contexts.
Oris: Throughout your entire career you have been both
teaching and practising architecture, nowadays you write
more and more. It somehow seems that you are entering
into a new field of practising architecture, because practising
architecture is also writing about architecture. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: The problem is that some years ago I didn’t dare
write about architecture, because it probably would have been
very pretentious. I really believe that writing about something
is very difficult and requires a certain experience. I had to write
to clarify myself. For me, it’s not possible to detach writing,
teaching projects and practising. Now, after practising for 25
years, I feel much surer about writing, about criticism.
Oris: In order to find out more about your architectural
personality, it would be helpful to hear something about your
origins, who were your heroes when you began your life in
architecture? ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: I started studying
economics. I tried to enter the school of architecture when I
was 16, because I finished high school quickly. A teacher there
told me that I couldn’t do architecture, that my intellectual
capacities were not in relation with architecture, that I was
great in mathematics and I should look for another course.
Oris: Why didn’t you listen to your professor? ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: They devised this test which was very famous
during the 60s and the 70s, testing your intellect, and
depending on the test, they told you that you have to be
an engineer or a doctor or just nothing. So at this time,
the confidence in this psychological test was unbelievable.
I was very young. I wanted to do architecture, but I didn’t
know anything about it. ¶ All my family were bankers, so
they wanted me to go to study economics. I decided on
the most important school of economics in Spain, where
I started to study economics. ¶ In the second year, I was
eighteen, but I was bored with it. I got my first qualification
and then I decided that I was going to try architecture. I was
accepted, because my curriculum of economics was very
oris, number 72, year 2011 Francisco Mangado, Interview 39

Španjolski paviljon jednu privatnu školu. Kad sam počeo raditi ovdje i prijavljivati
na Expou, Zaragoza,
se na natječaje, krenuo sam putovati u Barcelonu, Madrid,
Španjolska, 2008.
kako bih se susretao s arhitektima. ¶ Svi su me arhitekti
Spanish Pavilion for dobro primili, počeo sam pobjeđivati na natječajima, a 1989.
Expo, Zaragoza, Spain,
godine sam pobijedio na natječaju za vinariju u gradiću Olite.
2008
¶ Nekoliko godina poslije Rafael Moneo me promaknuo za
(pp) predavača na Harvardu, deset godina nakon moje diplome.
Nakon toga sam se vratio u Pamplonu i rekao rektoru
sveučilišta da moramo sve promijeniti. On se složio, tako
da smo u potpunosti promijenili školu, počeli smo pozivati
profesore, najbolje profesore iz svih dijelova svijeta. Škola
se počela širiti, tako da se danas smatra jednom od najboljih
škola u Španjolskoj. Od šest izvornih škola u Španjolskoj, sad
ih ima trideset pet, ali one najvažnije su vjerojatno Madrid
i Pamplona. U potpunosti smo preobrazili školu, ali u isto
vrijeme sam dugi niz godina predavao i u SAD-u. Početna
ideja življenja u mjestu kao što je Pamplona i putovanja u veće
centre možda je prije 25 godina bila vrlo riskantna odluka, ali
na kraju se pokazala plodonosnom. ¶ Danas Pamplona slovi
40 oris, broj 72, godina 2011
good. I hadn’t had the opportunity of working with a big
architect, an important architect, so I finished my studies
when I was 23, and started doing competitions, five years,
so I was very fast. ¶ I wish I could have worked with a good
architect, because Navarra was a very small province with a
school of architecture that was small in the 70s, very small. At
the time, Spain only had six schools of architecture: Madrid,
Barcelona, Valencia, Sevilla, La Laguna and Pamplona. Five
public schools and one private. When I started to work here
and enter some competitions, I started to move, going to
Barcelona, Madrid, to meet architects. ¶ All the architects
received me very well, I started winning some competitions,
I won the Olite Winery competition in 1989. ¶ Some years
later Rafael Moneo promoted me to teach at Harvard, ten
years later after my graduation. After that, I returned to
Pamplona and told the president of the university that we
had to transform everything. He agreed and we changed the
school completely, we started inviting professors, the best
professors from everywhere. This school then started to grow,
oris, number 72, year 2011
kao jedan od gradova s najboljom arhitekturom u Španjolskoj,
ona je u fokusu arhitekture. Jako sam ponosan što sam tome
pridonio. Stvorili smo školu i to je najbitnije.
Oris: Ali slažete se da su arhitektonski natječaji izuzetno bitni
za razvoj španjolske arhitekture? ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO:
Tako je bilo nekad. Danas je nažalost zemlja izgubljena.
Prolazimo kroz veliku krizu i to ne samo ekonomsku, nego
i krizu identiteta. Problem nije u tome što smo potrošili
puno novca, problem je što smo mislili da ćemo se razviti iz
siromašne u vrlo bogatu zemlju. Izgubili smo svijest o svom
porijeklu i svojim izvorima. Mi smo iz zemlje koja je prošla
građanski rat i koja se propatila u poslijeratnom razdoblju. Bila
je vrlo siromašna u ekonomskom smislu i razvijala se uz vrlo
velike napore. ¶ Djecu te prve generacije učilo se da moraju
vrlo naporno raditi jer je ovo vrlo siromašna zemlja. Moji su
roditelji radili vrlo naporno. Mi smo održali tu ideju rada i
traženja nekih ideala. ¶ Naraštaj moje djece ne zna što to znači
raditi u vrlo teškoj situaciji. Ne moramo se vraćati u povijest,
ali bismo trebali napraviti odmak i razmisliti o stvarnosti u
kojoj se naša zemlja nalazi. Imamo sjajne inženjere, arhitekte,
liječnike, odvjetnike, u biti, svijet traži ljude iz Španjolske.
Neki od mojih najboljih studenata sada rade u Švicarskoj. A
mi im kod nas nemamo što ponuditi. To je stvarno dramatično.
Nešto je doista jako krivo ako naši najbolji studenti moraju
odlaziti iz zemlje.
Oris: Ali prije krize vrijeme je za njih bilo izvanredno
povoljno. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Prije krize je takvo što
bilo nezamislivo. Rad na španjolskom paviljonu u Zaragozi
bio je nešto nevjerojatno. Vlada nije bila zadovoljna jer sam
koristio terakotu, a oni su htjeli bogatije materijale zato što
smo mi bogata zemlje. Njima novac nije predstavljao problem.
Nismo bili bogati zato što smo bili pametni, ili zato što smo
imali predivnu tradiciju i povijest, oni su vjerovali da smo
bogati zato što ih je netko na tržištu uvjerio da bismo trebali
puno trošiti. ¶ Bio sam jako ponosan što koristim najjeftiniji
materijal, zato što smo imali najjeftiniji paviljon po četvornom
metru na izložbi u Zaragozi, a u isto vrijeme bilo je to vrlo
reprezentativno za ideju koja bi baš sada mogla biti vrlo
korisna. Ideju koja pronalazi bogatstvo u radu i inteligenciji.
Uvjeren sam da je moja zemlja time bogata, i da je kriza inače
sjajno vrijeme za promišljanje. Prema tome, iako u isto vrijeme
žalim zbog naše situacije, ponajprije zbog najmlađeg naraštaja
arhitekata, isto sam tako optimističan kad je budućnost u
pitanju.
Oris: Vaš je paviljon zanimljiv s najmanje dva stajališta. Prvo
uključuje prefabricirane elemente, i vi uvijek naglašavate
razumijevanje za tu produkciju. Rekli ste da se puno toga
Francisco Mangado, Intervju
and it is now considered one of the most important schools
in Spain. From the six initial schools in Spain, we now have
35, but the most important ones are probably Madrid and
Pamplona. We transformed this school completely, but at the
same time I was teaching in the United States for many years.
And now what happens is that this initial idea of staying at
the site like Pamplona and going out was not perhaps very
clear 25 years ago, in the sense that it was very risky, but at
the end it has been very fruitful. ¶ Pamplona is considered one
of the cities with the best architecture in Spain, it’s the focus
of architecture. And I am very proud of having contributed to
this. We have created the school and that is very important.
Oris: But you agree that architectural competitions are
extremely important for the development of Spanish
architecture? ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: That used to be the
case. Now, unfortunately the country is lost. We are going
through a major crisis, not only an economic crisis, but also
an identity crisis. The problem was not that we spent a lot of
money, the problem was that we thought that we were going
to develop from a humble country to a very rich country. We
lost the awareness about our origin and about our sources. We
were coming from a country that had been in civil war, that had
suffered in the post-war period, very poor in economic terms
and that has grown with a very huge effort. ¶ The children of
this initial generation were educated in the area of working very
hard, because this was a poor country. My parents worked very
hard. We still kept the idea of working, chasing some ideals.
¶ The generation of my children does not know what it means
to work in very difficult situations. We don’t have to return to
our history, but we should acquire distance and think about the
reality of the country. We have wonderful engineers, architects,
doctors, lawyers, in fact, the world is clamouring for people from
Spain. The best of my students are now working in Switzerland.
But we have nothing to offer them at home. It is really dramatic.
¶ Something is a big mistake when the best generation that we
have trained has to escape from the country.
Oris: But they had a great time before the crisis. ¶ FRANCISCO
MANGADO: Before that, it was unthinkable. When I did
the Spanish pavilion in Saragossa, it was unbelievable. The
government was not satisfied because I used terracotta, they
wanted richer materials, because we were rich. Money was
not a problem for them. We were not rich because we were
intelligent or because we had a tradition and history that are
wonderful. They believe that we were, just because someone
in the markets convinced them that we should spend a lot.
¶ I was very proud because I used the cheapest material,
because we made the cheapest pavilion per square metre at
Francisco Mangado, Interview 41
 može naučiti iz posjeta radionicama. Morate vidjeti kako se
materijali zapravo proizvode kako biste bolje razumjeli na
koje sve načine možete sastaviti zgradu. Druga stvar koja
mi se sviđa kod paviljona je ideja održivosti, ona iskrena
održivost koja nije ni lažna ni dekorativna, ali koja stvarno
koristi pamet u korištenju vode i evaporaciju kako bi se
stvorio određeni okoliš. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO: Još važniji
od vode je i posebni koncept, ideja šume, zato jer šuma daje
sjenu. U isto vrijeme, šuma vam daje ideju fantastičnog
prostora za doživljavanje različitih elemenata. Mislim da je
ovaj paviljon vrlo pošten u smislu održivosti. Ne koristimo
posebne tehnologije i vrlo je jednostavan. Pokušali smo
riješiti pitanje okoliša, i mogli smo ga riješiti samo s još više
arhitekture, s više inteligencije. Ne govorim o dobroj i lošoj
arhitekturi, više volim termine inteligentna i neinteligentna
arhitektura. ¶ U smislu održivosti, najvažniji napreci i ideje
nastali su tijekom šezdesetih i sedamdesetih godina. Tada
se govorilo o načelima. Danas nove tehnologije izmišljaju
distributeri električne energije, industrija nafte, sve one
tvrtke koje su godinama izrabljivale prirodu. Oni stvaraju
novi imidž odgovornosti u zaštiti okoliša stvaranjem novih
tehnologija koje masno naplaćuju. ¶ Međutim, odgovor ne leži
samo u tome da se zgrade napune aktivnim tehnologijama i
brojnim uređajima. Odgovor leži u boljoj arhitekturi. Dobra
se arhitektura uvijek bavi kontekstom. Možemo razgovarati
o arhitekturi koja je odgovorna prema kontekstu. Za mene
je to jedno od najvažnijih pitanja. Ali prilično sam siguran da
danas ima puno konfuzije i pojednostavljenja kad je u pitanju
održivost u arhitektonskom smislu.
Oris: Zaključit ću umjesto vas da je po definiciji sva
inteligentna arhitektura održiva. Uzmite za primjer
tradicionalnu arhitekturu, ona je prilično održiva.
42 oris, broj 72, godina 2011
the Saragossa exhibition, and at the same time it was very
representative of an idea that could be useful just now. An idea
which finds wealth in work and in intelligence. I am convinced
that my country is rich in this and that a crisis is usually a great
time for thinking, for reflection. So at the same time that I
regret our situation, basically speaking about the youngest
architects, I am very optimistic regarding the future.
Oris: Your pavilion is interesting from at least two points of
view. The first is the prefabrication of the elements, and you
always stress understanding how this prefabrication is actually
done. You said that you can learn so much by going to the
workshops to see how the materials are actually constructed
in order to understand better how the building could be
assembled. The second point which I really like regarding the
pavilion is the idea of sustainability, this completely honest
sustainability which is not false or decorative, but which really
uses intelligence of how to use the water and vaporing in
order to create an environment. ¶ FRANCISCO MANGADO:
Even more important than the water was the special concept,
the idea of a forest, because a forest provides shadows. At
the same time, a forest provides you with an idea of fantastic
space for passing through different elements. I think that this
pavilion in terms of sustainability is very honest. We don’t use
special technologies. It’s very simple. We were trying to solve
the question of the environment, a question that we can solve
only with more architecture, with more intelligence. I’m not
speaking about good or bad architecture, I prefer to speak
about intelligent architecture or non-intelligent architecture.
¶ In terms of sustainability, the most important advances and
ideas were expressed during the 60s and 70s. Then they talked
about principles. Now, new technologies have been invented
by electric companies, petrol companies, the same companies
that have been exploiting nature for years. And they are
creating a new image of environmental responsibility, creating
new technologies for which they charge a lot of money. ¶ But
the answer is not only to fill buildings with active technologies,
with a lot of devices. The answer is to make better architecture.
Good architecture always has to be concerned about context.
We can speak about architecture with responsibility to its
context. For me, it’s one of the most important issues. But I
am quite sure that nowadays there is a lot of confusion and
simplification about sustainability in terms of architecture.
Oris: I will conclude instead of you that all intelligent
architecture is sustainable by definition. Take for example
traditional architecture, it’s quite sustainable.
oris, number 72, year 2011 Francisco Mangado, Intervju Francisco Mangado, Interview 43