bogdan

bogdanovi
/ukleti neimar
the doomed
architect

gliptoteka hazu
medvedgradska 2 zagreb
1

ovu knjigu sam

morao da napiem...
zar sam mogao
da je ne napiem?/
I had to write this
book...did I have any
other choice?
mrtvouzice. mentalne zamke staljinizma.
zagreb: august cesarec, 1988.

arhitektura
kao primijenjena
antropologija/sonja
lebo

oziv Austrijskog kulturnog

01

foruma u Zagrebu da za

Ponovo sam

izlobu u Zagrebu priredim

se povezala s

postojei materijal iz bekog

Bogdanovievim

Arhitektonskog centra kojeg

memorijalnim

je pripremio Ivan Risti, veliki poznavatelj

kompleksima

nasljea Bogdana Bodanovia, prihvatila

zapoimajui

sam s velikim oduevljenjem i dubokim

uzbuenjem. Naslov izlobe je preuzet
iz Bogdanovievog vlastitog prihvaanja

u 2009. godini.

Ledouxovog epiteta maudit, kojeg je usvojio

Radi se o projektu

1990ih. Prihvaanje da bude architecte

koji je proizaao

maudit formuliralo je sintagmu ireg opsega

iz ideiranja

znaenjaukleti neimar, koja je opet

pojmova teatra

prevedena kao the doomed architect.

Dok pripremam izlobu i piem ovaj tekst

i teorije na nain
na koji poivaju

moj cilj nije ni u potpunosti rasvijetliti, kako

u starogrkim

je to Friedrich Achleitner napisao, fenomen

korijenima the i

Bogdan Bogdanovi, niti pokazati njegov

oros, sa znaenjem

rad u njegovom neizmjernom opsegu. Moja

gledati i vidjeti.

ambicija sadrana je u tome da rad Bogdana

http://www.

Bogdanovia prije svega pribliim mlaim

theatreofmemories.

generacijama i ukaem na njegovu uoljivu

org/

povijesnost, a time i politiki znaaj. BB je

bio izvanredan arhitekt, pejzani arhitekt,
umjetnik, pisac, sveuilini profesor,
urbanolog i politiar. Moja zahvalnost
je velikaBB je bio jedan od prvih koji je
oznaio gabarite polja rada na koje mnogi
od nas danas referiraju kao na polje vlastite
suvremene prakse: polje urbanologije.
Rad Bogdana Bogdanovia upoznala sam
1988,01 nakon to je njegova knjiga Mrtvouzice
bila objavljena u Zagrebu. Bilo je to udno
razoblje, interregnumnakon to se ugasila

projekt Mnemosyne
Kazalite sjeanja

karizmatina dominacija koja je desetljeima

02

bila uvodila ugodu utopijske bezbrinosti,

Bogdanovi, 2009.

dok su feudalni ratni vladari jo uvijek ekali

u zasjedi i izdavali naredbe svojim vazalima,
prije nego to e te naredbe postati zapovjedi
da se ubija, siluje i pali kako bi se formirala
fiktivna srodstva utemeljena na bezbrojnim
krvavim paktovima. Prije no to su dola
vremena koja BB opisuje kao uasna, kada
su snovi (bili) legitimna, a moda i jedina
samoodbrana.02

Ve tada, 1988. godine,03 bilo je jasno da

03
Danas kada se
vraam mislima
unazad, razmiljam
kako je udno da
nitko nije naao za
shodno da mojoj
generaciji govori
o radu Bogdana
Bogdanovia a
bila sam uenica
Odjela za dizajn
i unutranju
arhitekturu kole
primijenjenih
umjetnosti u
Zagrebu, 198185, a
kasnije i studentica
arhitekture na
zagrebakom
Sveuilitu, 198588.
04
Kao to sam
nauila od dragog
prijatelja i kolege
iz June Amerike,
intelektualci su
ljudi koji se osjeaju

Seoska kola za filozofiju arhitekture u Malom

Popoviu, veernja sesija / Village school for the
philosophy of architecture in Mali Popovi, evening
session, 1979.

odgovornim za
drutvo u kojem ive
te djeluju prema
tom osjeaju.

05

Svojom je knjigom Mrtvouzice BB jasno

Dok je usporeivao dravu u kojoj je ivio

BB zauzima poziciju intelektualca,04 iako

Namjerno kaem

pokazao drutvu u kojem je ivio, a bio je

s Lvy-Bruhlovim opisima tzv. primitivnih

nitko osim onih koji su isti planirali nije

znakovlje, a ne

jedan od prvh koji je to uinio, da su jezik

drutava, BB je verificirao injenicu da je

mogao predvidjeti nadolazei uas, to je

simboli, potujui

i lingvistika esencijalna orua politike

dobrohotna mo, ona koja ini dobro veini,

tada postala rijetka pozicija za ljude njegove

razliku koju je uinio

antropologije. Kao to je to sm objasnio,

obino u sri drutva, dok prijetea mo

generacije u regiji koja je danas poznata

Cassirer, ba kao

BB je poznavao rad Lvy-Bruhla jo od

ostaje razasuta, djelujui poput vjetiarenja.

kao biva Jugoslavija ili Jugoistona Evropa.

to je to potivao i

vremena prije Drugog svjetskog rata, a

Brisanje politikih funkcija koje su bile

Upravo zbog toga, nakon gotovo etvrt stoljea,

Bogdanovi.

piui Mrtvouzice osjetio se ponukanim da

postojale u prethodnim desetljeima sa

preispita pojam primitivnog. Bogdanovi

lica zemlje, kao i brisanje drutvenih

elim zapoeti ovu malu, izlobi pripadajuu

publikaciju s Bogdanom Bogdanoviem
kao intelektualcem koji je zauzeo politiki
stav kada je to uinila tek nekolicina, u
vremenima kada su mladi ljudi to oajniki
trebali, neki mladi ljudi koji su potom bili
lukavo zavedeni znakovljem05 mrnje. Naslov
ovog teksta06 ukazuje na smjernice koje
slijedim dok itam njegovo djelo, pokuavajui
drati na umu njegova itanja Loosa saeta

06
Izraz koji je Bogdan
Bogdanovi
upotrijebio u
intervjuu datom
Zoranu Miloviu,
objavljenom u
magazinu Start 1988.
godine

je takoer demonstrirao ono to je kasnije

uloga koje su se pojavile s modernizacijom,

tijekom stravinog rata u 1990ima postalo

omoguilo je centraliziranom dravnom

jo prisutnije, a to je da javne i privatne

sistemu (ili, preciznije, i djelomino

(pri)povijesti koegzistiraju (ali esto ne

centraliziranim republikim sistemima)

miroljubivo) u svakom drutvu. Upozoravao

da se udrue sa segmentiranim sistemima

je na neizbjenu opasnost: trenutak u kojem

klanova. Drava je bila spremna za raspad,

je politika mo postala tako centralizirana

odnosnoza kasapljenje. Naknadni efekt je

da se povijesna svijest veine graanstva

bio slian onome koji se dogodio u veini

jednostavno raspala. Erozija relativno

post-kolonijalnih i post-konfliktnih zemalja

u izrazu kako arhitektura uvijek moe biti

07

progresivne i moderne socijalistike drave

irom svijetaJugoistona regija Evrope

ispriana, a koncentrirajui se na intenzitet

Bogdanovi

bila je u svojoj posljednjoj fazi, a i danas je

je uskoro svjedoila raznim oblicima

komunikacije koji je BB stvorio izmeu

upotrebljava

teko vjerovati da je bio jedini koji je to sve

pseudo-tradicionalizma, u formama daleko

naizgled vrlo razliitih disciplinaarhitekture

pojam politija (eng.

vidio i rijetko dovoljno hrabar da to isto stavi

zajedljivijim no to je to Hobsbawm ikad

i antropologijeintenzitet koji je konstruiran

polity, njem. das

na papir.

mogao pretpostaviti.

na kapacitetu obje da djeluju koristei snagu

Gemeinwesen),

deskriptivnog.

Kao ovjek sensu lato dobro upoznat s

Nakon perioda ratne destrukcije kakvu

iako je to van

drevnim kulturama i drutvima, a i kao

uobiajenog leksika,

pedantan etimolog, BB je bio svjestan da je

i poinjenih neizrecivih surovosti koje se do

pretraga u njeno ime, kao to je to BB stavio na

a umjesto rijei

rije polis u korijenu rijei politija i politika.07

danas nisu kaznile, pseudo-tradicionalizam je

poetku svoje knjige Mrtvouzice.

policy koja takoer

Ukazao je na injenicu da je analiza politike

poprimio novu formu prostornih osvajanjau

vue korijen iz istog

funkcije jednako neophodna kao i analiza

poslijeratnom periodu nedostatak urbanog

ogromnog ponora koji je postojao i postoji

izvora, najee

politike akcije. Iscrtao je liniju i secirao

planiranja donio je drugu civilizacijsku

izmeu teorija i diskursa proizvedenih od

se, opet, koristi

asimetriju drutvenih odnosa u dravi koje je

cezuru, kojoj i danas padamo kao utljive rtve.

inim to zbog Mnemosyne, zbog buduih

Svojim politikim stavom BB se dotaknuo

Evropa nije vidjela od Drugog svjetskog rata

drutva i o drutvu i ekstremno lako osvojive

rije politika (eng.

bio graanin. Nije mogao znati, ali je osjeao,

Problem preutnog prihvaanja, suglasja

drutvene i politike stvarnosti koja proizlazi

politics) ili ponekad

da mo koja e uskoro biti uvedena biti

pod svaku cijenu, jednostavno uporno

iz ljudskih akcija. Ili nedostatka tih akcijato

odredba, pravilnik ili

preteno ona koja se temelji na prisili, koja

ostavlja svoj trag. Drutvene uloge koje su

jednaim s problemom preutnog prihvaanja.

slino.

trai suglasnost pod svaku cijenu.

svoju pojavnost mogle zahvaliti periodu

Tek dovreni tumuli

(vetaki breuljci) Spomengroblja u Sremskoj
Mitrovici, a odmah
zatim i grupa kenotafa
u makedonskom gradu
Prilepu, otvarali su put
jednoj novoj antropologiji
seanja/ Just finished
tumuli (artificial hummocks)
of Memorial cemetery in
Sremska Mitrovica, and
right afterwards the
group of cenotaphs in the
Macedonian town Prilep,
opened up a path towards
a new anthropology of
remembrance.
Spomen-groblje u

Kenotafi za pale

Sremskoj Mitrovici/

borce protiv faizma

Memorial Cemetery in

u Prilepu/Cenotaphs

Sremska Mitrovica

for the fallen

19591960.

members of the
resistance against
fascism in Prilep 1961.

bibliografija / bibliography:

socijalistike modernizacije nisu se ponovno

do tada nepoznate kvalitete koja sadri

08

ukazale u formi u kojoj su bile izgubljene, ve

longue dure multidimenzionalnost. Kao to

Kolega Ivan

pervertirane. Ba kao i u zapadnoj Njemakoj

je Ivan Risti istaknuo u svojoj doktorskoj

Risti i moja

Achleitner, F., Risti I., Komac, U.,Guilln, P., Karge,

nakon Drugog svjetskog rata, preplavljujua

dizertaciji, Bogdanovi se izuzetno isticao u

malenkost doli

H., Milovanovi,D., Vukovi, V.: Bogdan Bogdanovi.

ideologija ekonomskog progresa odzvanja u

nadrealistikoj egzegezi klasinog curricul.

smo do poredbe

Memoria und Utopie in TitoJugoslawien.

Bogdanovi-

Wien: Wieser & AzW, 2009.

svakom uhu.

Upoznati se s fenomenom Bogdan

Bogdanovi ivotni je zadatak kojeg

Smithson nezavisno

o razvoju grada i njegovog okruja jo u

pruzimam sa zahvalnou u svojim daljnjim

jedno od drugog.

ranim 1970im: da li je mogue da jo uvijek

istraivanjima u podrujima urbanologije,

Ipak je vano rei

imamo to jedno jedino imegradza

politike pamenja i umjetnosti komemoracija.

da je ono to je kod

Bogdanovi, Bogdan: Urbs&Logos.

potpuno izdiferencirane entitete poput

Ne mogu drugaije nego privesti kraju

mene jo uvijek

Ni: Gradina, 1976.

BB je postavio svoje epohalno pitanje

suvremenog Tokija i drevne Smirne? Nakon

ovaj mali uvodni tekst rijeima Friedricha

tek naznaena

to je bio izgubio bitku za Novu kolu na

Achleitnera, koji je neizmjerno kompetentniji

poredba, Ivan je

Arhitektonskom fakultetu u Beogradu, borio

od mene u bavljenju nazvanim fenomenom:

pomnije elaborirao

Balandier, Georges: Anthropologie Politique.

Presses Universitaires de France, 1967.

Bogdanovi, Bogdan: Mrtvouzice.

Zagreb: August Cesarec, 1988.

se protiv moguih scenarija dezintegracije

memorijalna podruja Bogdana

u svojoj doktorskoj

Bogdanovi, Bogdan: Zelena kutija.

grada svojom kolom u Malom Popoviu.

Bogdanovia su loci jedne urbane kulture,

dizertaciji, str.

Novi Sad: Mediterran Publishing, 2009.

8689.

ansa koju su mladi ljudi na taj nain dobili,

...ona su uvijek bila izvedena iz topografije i

ansa da re-imaginiraju grad, bila je jedna

krajolika da bi bila tranformirana u mjesta

vrsta iznimnog pedagokog pothvata, ba kao

promiljanja, prisjeanja i kontemplacije.10

to su brojne transformacije raznih krajolika

09
Bogdanovi, 1976.

oblikovale neusporediva memorijalna

Generirajui pejzae kao aktere urbane

10

podruja, sijui sjeme umjetnosti pejzanog

civilizacije, Bogdanovi nam je ostavljao

Achleitner, 2009.

oblikovanja ak i prije no to je Robert

ogromno transnacionalno nasljee irom

S njemakog

Smithson iskovao sintagmu land-art.08 Kada

tadanjeg suverenog politikog entiteta,

prevedeno od strane

samo i zavirimo u Bogdanovieve temeljite

danas regije Jugoistone Evrope. Nasljee

autorice.

elaborate etruanske kulture,09 lako emo

koje evropska drutva tek trebaju nauiti

shvatiti da je njegov environmentalism od

poznavati i cijeniti.

Bogdanovi, Bogdan: Ukleti neimar.

Novi Sad: Mediterran Publishing, 2011.
Braudel, Fernand & Matthews, Sarah: On History,
The University of Chicago Press, 1982.
Cassiser, Ernst: Philosophie der Symbolischen
Formen. Darmstadt: 1959.
Hobsbawm, Eric: The Invention of Tradition.
Cambridge University Press, 1983.
Plessner, Helmut: Zakanjela nacija,
Zagreb: Naprijed, 1997.
Risti, Ivan: Bogdan Bogdanovi. Baumester und
Zeichner, University of Vienna, 2009.
http://othes.univie.ac.at/9957

polis/metropolis/megalopolis/nekropolis
10

Spomen-podruje Jasenovac
/ Jasenovac Memorial Site
19591966.

11

architecture
as applied
anthropology
sonja
/ lebosch

he invitation that came from the

01

Austrian Cultural Forum in Zagreb

I reconnected

to adapt the existing material

to Bogdanovis

from the Architekturzentrum

memorial sites

Wien as chosen and prepared

when starting the

by the great connoisseur of Bogdan

Bogdanovis legacy Ivan Risti for an

exhibition in Zagreb, was an opportunity that

Memories in 2009,

I took with the greatest joy and profound

a project emerging

excitement. The title of the exhibition is

from the ideation

taken from Bogdanovis own acceptance

of both theatre and

of Ledouxs epithet maudit, that he adopted

theory as resting

in the 1990s. So the acceptance of being

in Greek roots the

larchitecte maudit formulated the translation

and oros meaning

with a broader scope of meaningsukleti

viewing and seeing.

neimar, which was then transcribed as the

http://www.

doomed architect.
My aim while preparing the exhibition as
well writing this text is neither to elucidate
completely, as Friedrich Achleitner wrote,
the Bogdanovi phenomenon, nor to
show his work in its immense entirety. My
ambition is to give an opportunity primarily
to the younger generations to get acquainted
with Bogdanovis work and to point to his
conspicuously historical, and therefore
political, relevance. BB was an outstanding
architect, landscape architect, artist, writer,
educationist, urbanologist and politician. My
gratitude to him is boundlesshe was one of
the first to designate the field of work that
many of us today refer to as to the field of our
own contemporary practice: urbanology.
I got acquainted with Bogdanovis
work in 1988,01 after his book Mrtvouzice02

12

project Mnemosyne
Theatre of

13

theatreofmemories.
org/
02
Could be loosely
translated as
Deathtraps.

03

had been published in Zagreb. It was the

inbetween these two disciplinesarchitecture

and they act upon

Bogdanovi, 2009.

time of interregnumafter the charismatic

and anthropologyintensity construed on

that feeling.

Translated from

domination that for decades had been

the capacity of both to work with the power of

Bosnian-Croatian-

introducing utopian fervour ceased, while

descriptive.

Serbian language by

feudal warlords were still waiting in the

the author.

ambush, giving silent orders to their vassals,

future remembrance, as BB put it at the

before those orders became commands to

beginning of Mrtvouzice.

04
When I think back,
I find it strange
that nobody had
ever mentioned
his work to my
generation in the
school curriculum
and I was a pupil
of Zagreb School
of Applied Arts,
Department for
Architecture and
Design,19811985,
and later also
a student of
architecture at the
University of Zagreb,
19851988.

For the sake of Mnemosyne, and for the

kill, rape or burn and fictitious kinships

With his political stand, Bogdanovi

established by innumerable blood pacts.

tackled that immense hiatus that existed and

Before the times that BB describes as horrible

exists between the theories and discourses

came, when dreams (were) the legitimate, if

produced by and about the society and an

not the only self-defense.03

extremely conquerable social and political

Already then, in 1988,04 it was clear that

06
I deliberately say
signage, and not
symbols, while
respecting the
distinction that
Cassirer made, just
like Bogdanovi
respected it as well.

reality that comes as a result of peoples

07

Bogdanovi was taking a position of an

actions. Or lack of themtantamount to the

Bogdan Bogdanovi

intellectual,05 though nobody but those who

problem of acquiescence.
With his book Mrtvouzice, BB showed

planned it could have foreseen the upcoming

used that
expression in an

horror, which became a rare position for

clearly to the society that he lived in, and he

interview conducted

the people of his generation in the region

was one of the first to do so, that language

by Zoran Milovi,

that is now known as former Yugoslavia,

and linguistics were and are essential tools of

published in Start

or South Eastern Europe (SEE). Therefore

political anthropology. As he explained, he

magazine in 1988.

I would like to start this small publication

knew the work of Lvy-Bruhl from the times

Translated from

that accompanies the exhibition in Zagreb

before WWII, and while writing Mrtvouzice he

Croatian-Bosnian-

in 2012, almost a quarter of a century later,

felt drawn to the reexamination of the notion

Serbian language by

with Bogdan Bogdanovi as an intellectual

of primitive. Bogdanovi also demonstrated,

the author.

who took a political stand when just few

what later would become even more horridly

people did, in the times when that stand was

Spomen-podruje Jasenovac/

present in the 1990s Balkan wars, that public

05

desperately needed by many young people

Jasenovac Memorial Site 19591966.

and private (hi)stories coexisted and coexist

As I learned from

who soon were cunningly seduced by the

a dear colleague

signage06 of hatred. The title of this text07

and friend from

refers to the path that I am taking up in my

South America,

readings of his work, while trying to keep in

intellectuals are the

mind his readings of Loos encapsulated in the

people who feel

expression that architecture can be always

responsible for the

retold in words,08 concentrating myself on

society they live in

the intensity of communication that BB built

14

Vodeni vor u koji se, na

relativno malom prostoru,
upliu tri rekeSava, Una,
Strugpodsea na zmijsko
gnezdo.../

Water facility in which, in a

relatively small area, these
three rivers interfereSava,
Una, Strugare reminiscent
of the snakes nest...

in every society. He was warning against the

imminent danger: the moment when the
political power became so centralized that
the historical conscioussnes of most of the
citizenry fell apart. The erosion of a relatively
progressive and modern socialist state was
in its latest phase, and even now it is difficult
to believe that he was the only one to see it

15

08
Bogdanovi, 2011.
Translated from
Bosnian-CroatianSerbian by the
author.

coming and brave enough to put it down on

cantankerous than Hobsbawm could ever

even before the syntagm land-art was coined

09

paper the way he did.

assume.

by Robert Smithson.09 When one only peeks

Ivan Risti and

into his thoroughgoing elaborations of the

myself came to the

As a man sensu lato knowledgeable

about ancient cultures and societies, and

kind that Europe had not seen since WWII

Etruscan culture,10 it is easy to comprehend

point of comparison

as a meticulous etymologist, BB was aware

and unspeakable atrocities which have

that Bogdanovis environmentalism is of an

Bogdanovi-

that the word polis gave root to the words

mostly been granted impunity, that pseudo-

unprecedented quality that contains the

Smithson

polity, policy and politics. He pointed out that

traditionalism took over the form of spatial

longue dure multidimensionality. As Ivan

independently. It

the analysis of the political function is as

conquest of another kindin the aftermath

Risti pointed out in his doctoral thesis,

is important to

indispensable as the analysis of the political

of the war the lack of urban planning brought

Bogdanovi excelled as a surrealist exegete of

note, though, that

the classical curriculum.

Ivan elaborated

action. He drew a datum and dissected the

up another civilisational caesura, the one that

dissymmetry of the social relations in the

we are still the silent victims of. The problem

state he was a citizen of. He could not know,

of acquiescence just keeps on lingering. The

phenomenon is a life time task that I am

his PhD thesis,

but he felt, that the power soon to be ushered

social roles that emerged in the period of

thankfully accepting while investigating

p.8689.

would be predominantly one of coercion, one

socialist modernization did not reappear

further in urbanology, politics of

that would require consent no matter what.

in the shape they had when they were lost,

remembrance and arts of commemoration.

but perverted, and just like in the postwar

I cannot but bring to an end this small

the state he lived in with the descriptions of

Germany, the overwhelming ideology of the

introductory text with the words of Friedrich

Lvy-Bruhls primitive societies, Bogdanovi

economic progress was in everybodys ear.

Achleitner, who is immeasurably more

While comparing what was going on in

verified the fact that beneficent power

usually sits at the core of the society, while

Spomen-podruje
Jasenovac
/Jasenovac
Memorial Site
19591966.
Diagram, oko /
about 1980

Meni su se rijei
i forme uvijek
isprepletale./ For me,
words & forms have
always intertwined.
16

After the period of war destruction of a

BB posed his epochal question about the

development of the city and its environment

Getting to know the Bogdanovi

competent than me to tackle the named

phenomenon:

it thoroughly in

10
Bogdanovi, 1976.
Translated from
Bosnian-CroatianSerbian by the
author.

the threating power remains dispersed,

already in the early 1970s: is it possible that we

Bogdan Bogdanovis memorial sites are

acting like witchcraft. The effacement of the

still have one namethe cityfor extremely

loci of an urban culture, ...they had always

Achleitner, 2009.

11

political functions as had been known in the

differentiated entities like contemporary

been developed out of the topography and

Translated from

previous decades, as well as the effacement

Tokyo and ancient Smyrna? He fought against

landscape that then were transformed

German by the

of the most social roles that emerged with

author.

the plausible scenarios of disintegration

into the sites of thinking, recalling and

modernization, enabled the centralized state

of the city with his school in Mali Popovi,

contemplation.11

system (and semi-centralized systems of some

after the struggle for the New School at the

republics) to merge with the segmentary

Faculty of Architecture in Belgrade had been

With generating landscapes as agents of urban

clan system. The state was ready to be

lost. The chance that was given to the young

civilizations, Bogdanovi left en enormous

dismembered, or ratherbutchered. The

people to re-imagine the idea of the city was

transnational legacy all over the SEE region.

Str./pg. 1819

after effect was similar to those exorcised in

a unique pedagogical undertaking, just like

Legacy that the European societies still have

Spomen-podruje

the most of the post-colonial and post-conflict

his numerous transformations of various

to learn to know and respect.

countries around the worldthe SEE region

landscapes across the country had been

Jasenovac
/Jasenovac

was soon to be witnessing diverse forms of

forming unequaled memorial sites while

Translation: Sonja Lebo

pseudo-traditionalism, in forms much more

seeding the art of landscaping of a new kind

Revision: Aleksandar Kono Hut

17

Memorial Site
19591966.

Arhitekture
(unutranje i vanjske).../
Architectures
(from the inside & from the outside)...

Sve to sam umeo bilo je da posegnem za vrlo arhainim formulama,

jer sam smatrao da ukoliko skrivena re oblika dalje see u
metaistorijske slojeve ljudske fantazije, utoliko e biti vea mogunost
solidarnog itanja simbola./ What I was capable of, was recoursing
to very archaic forms. I was convinced that the deeper the semantics
of form went into the meta-historical layers of the human imagination,
the more readily understood the symbols would be.
18

19

umjesto
biografije

Grimmer: Kad bi vas, gospodine Bogdanoviu, htjeli

predstaviti, doli bismo u prilinu dilemu jer vi imate
etiri biografijearhitekt, likovni umjetnik, knjievnik,
politiar. Postoji li za vas odreena hijerarhija u tome
pogledu?
Bogdanovi: Ja sam to uvijek osjeao kao
cjelinu. Moja je linost bila kompozitna, pa se
to sve moglo uskladiti. esto sam razmiljao
o hijerarhiji. Kao prvo sam arhitekt, pomalo
i pisac, pomalo i crta i vrlo malo politiar.
Ali to malo bilo je estoko. No, politika mi
se nije sviala, bio sam politiar jer je u ono
vrijeme bila takva situacija da sam smatrao
da to moram biti. Reagirao sam prema svom
temperamentu, a prema tome su onda dole i
kontrareakcije.

bogdan bogdanovi/
gradovi su bia
20

Kenotafi
rtvama faizma
u Travniku /

Ve u djetinjstvu Bogdan Bogdanovi

Grimmer: Kao profesor urbanizma zauzimali ste

uao je u svijet umjetnosti u kui

se za druge kvalitete, a ne za pragmatini, korisni

svoga oca, uvenog knjievnog

urbanizam. Suprotstavili ste se urbanizmu kvantitete.

kritiara i kazalinog ravnatelja

Meutim, faktori koji su odredili va profesionalni put

Milana Bogdanovia. Tu je ve

sigurno su poneto sloeniji.

kao sedmogodinjak upoznao

Bogdanovi: Dao sam se birati za asistenta

Miroslava Krleu. Pripadnost

na Katedri za urbanizam jer je u trenutku kad

krugu beogradskih nadrealista oko

sam diplomirao arhitektura u Jugoslaviji bila

Marka Ristia zauvijek je odredila

jadna, radilo se samo sa dva tipa prozora, tako

njegovu osobnu poetiku u sva tri

da se u tu siromanu, toboe funkcionalistiku

paralelna medija kojima se iskazuje

arhitekturu nisu mogle uklopiti moje

spomenikoj arhitekturi, crteu i

prethodne fantazije. Poeo sam studirati prije

Cenotaphs for

literaturi. U svom ivotu Bogdanovi

rata, a na arhitekturu sam otiao iz jednog

the victims of

ni u umjetnosti ni u politici nije

nadrealistikog miljea. Napravio sam ak i

fascism in Travnik

traio lagan put, ve se uvijek kretao

neki program i naslovio ga, parafrazirajui

19711975.

protiv struje.

Corbusiera: Vers une architecture surealiste.

Razgovarala u Beu Vera Grimmer,

Htio sam praviti nadrealistiku arhitekturu,

29. svibnja 2006. godine

ali to je podrazumijevalo klijente koji bi to

21

htjeli, kao to je to, na primjer, bio sluaj

Grimmer: Nadrealizam je subverzivno prisutan ve

Grimmer: Moda bi bilo zanimljivo neto saznati iz

s kuom za Tristana Tzaru. Za vrijeme

stoljeimaod Hieronimusa Boscha ili udesnih komora

vaega iskustva s nadrealistikim krugom.

rata zabavljao sam se s Markom Ristiem

manirizma, pa do Bretonovog pokreta. On je malo

tako da sam toboe za njega projektirao

potisnut, ali moda je danas vrijeme kada on opet dolazi

primaju u nadrealistiko drutvo ne moe se

jednu sumanutu kuu, gdje se iz gornjeg

na povrinu, kada ponovo ljude zanima jer u totalno

govoriti bez presjeka kroz ondanju moralno-

Bogdanovi: O onom trenutku kad me

kata moglo klizati u donji, prepunu nekih

reguliranom vremenu globalizacije, profita opet postoji

literarnu situaciju u Jugoslaviji. Nadrealizam

iznenaenja. Da je bilo mogue, ja bih tako

potreba za nekom anarhijom.

je bio beogradski, ali je bio neodvojiv od Krlee.

radio arhitekturu. U mome krugu svi smo

Bogdanovi: Ja bih volio da se to vae

Krlea nije volio nadrealizam, ali nije smio to

bili nadrealisti i ljeviari, ali kad je dolo

predvianje ostvari. Dodue, sad je ve

priznati. Nadrealisti su ga oboavali, a i on se

nae lijevo drutvo, vidjeli smo da od takvih

manje-vie svejedno, ali i nije. Ja sam uvijek

jako dobro slagao s njima. Zbog te svoje faze

nadrealistikih egzibicija nema nita. U

smatrao da nadrealizam vue duboke korijene

i druenja s nadrealistima doao je na crni

oajanju sam se odluio za urbanizam jer je to

iz povijesti, povijesti umjetnosti, povijesti

spisak Partije; mislim da mu to nikad poslije

donekle ipak i neka znanstvena disciplina.

civilizacije. Pretpostavljam da se pravi

nije bilo oproteno, to je uvijek preuivano.

ondanji nadrealisti ne bi ljutili. Nadrealizam

To je bio jedan krugto vrijedi za onu grupu

Ali preokret u mom ivotu bio je kad

sam dobio natjeaj za Spomenik idovskim

je nastavak romantizma.

nadrealista koji su bili bretonovci, a to su bili

rtvama u Beogradu. Najedanput mi se

Marko Risti, Duan Mati, Aleksandar Vuo.

otvorio itav novi svijet simbola, usporednih

Grimmer: Bretonovski nadrealizam bio je jo obogaen i

Ali bila je i druga nadrealistika grupaoni

znaenja. Tada poinje taj moj nain miljenja

kontekstom razvoja psihoanalize.

nisu bili bretonovci, nego su, bogami, bili

Bogdanovi: Primite to kao sasvim

aragonovci, a aragonovci su bili staljinisti.

mogu misliti i na nemoderan nain. Moje

arbitrarnu igru rijeiali i psihoanaliza je

I sad, iz ove beogradske nadrealistike

prve kue na Avali kraj Beograda s poetka

vukla svoje korijene iz romantizma. Moda je

grupe su poslije izali i vrlo dobri generali

50-ih godina bile su pune reminiscencija. Moj

apsurdno to to sam rekao, ali ini mi se tako.

revolucijeKoa Popovi i drugi.

na katove. Ja sam moderni arhitekt, ali

prijatelj je bio inenjer na Hidro-tehnikom

Tono reeno, mislim da je Popovi bio

Grimmer: Za to sigurno imate argumente.

institutu, pa su te kue bile namijenjene

potajni bretonovac. Takva stajalita Partija

njihovim zaposlenicima. Te bi kue mogle

Bogdanovi: Prodirati u donje slojeve,

biti i na Mediteranu, no kad sam ih gradio,

duboko, uzmite samo romantiarsku

nadrealist, do posljednjeg daha. Kad sam bio

nisam mislio da e izgledati mediteranski.

literaturu, pa nadrealizamfrojdizam je

gradonaelnik, sreo sam ga u jednoj situaciji

Graene su na starinski nain, potpuno od

nastao iz toga stanja duha

je tek tolerirala. Ali on je apsolutno ostao

kad je bio proskribiran. Uputio sam mu poziv

kamena. Te su kue bile nadrealistike i nisu

da doe na dodjelu nekih plaketa i on se

Grimmer: Moda je nastao iz bolesti vremena.

naile na odobravanje struke, budui da su

pojavio sav preplaen. Morate znati da sam

Bogdanovi: Da, iz bolesti vremena je Freud

svi bili moderni da ne moe modernije. Oni

ja kao gradonaelnik pravio razne egzibicije

su se tada jedva odlijepili od socijalistikog

izvlaio tu svoju spekulaciju koja je divna

jer sam imao iza sebe Ivana Stambolia. Vidio

realizma, a onda dolazi netko tko opet radi

spekulacija; koliko je pomogla nesretnicima,

sam da je ovjek doao, pa nikako da sjedne, pa

takvo neto. No nisu shvatili nadrealistiku

to je sad drugo pitanje. Ali kao spekulacija je

hoe u prvi red, pa nee... A onda ja ustanem,

podlogu.

bila divna.

cijela sala zauti, onda ja doem do njega:

22

23

Koo, doite, sjednite sa mnom. O, pa vrlo

politikih klopki da se sapleete o podzemne

generacije koje su dolazile izvana. To

E sad, kako su se uope ti spomenici mogli

rado. Ja ga dovedem i sjednem s njim, a onda

interese. Gledao sam da budem to dalje od

zavlaenje u podrume, penjanje na tavane,

raditi i zato su se radili, zato sam ja dobivao

nastane jedna duboka tiina i zatim pljesak

svega toga, tako da sam poslije, kako sam

razgovori sa raznim oriinalima po bifeima.

narudbe? U jednom vremenu, kad smo ve

Koi Popoviu.

vodio taj urbanizam, doao u situaciju da me

O svemu i svaemu se prialo, samo se pazilo

sasvim raistili sa Rusima, u spomenikoj

biraju za docenta. Onda sam preokrenuo naziv

da ne bude politike.

arhitekturi je jo uvijek sovjetski model bio

Grimmer: Vai crtei tih fantazijskih bia koja su

predmetane Urbanizam nego Urbanologija.

katkada bia i kue istodobno na neki nain podsjeaju

Tu sam bio slobodan, slobodno razmiljanje o

na onirika bia Maxa Ernsta.

pesnica, energija, budunost, itd. I onda

Grimmer: U knjizi Zaludna mistrijaknjizi o bratstvu

dolazi jedan zamraeni matoriji momak,

gradu, bez praktinog urbanizma. A praktini

uzaludnih i traginih graditelja Paladija, Borrominija,

poinje raditi neto sasvim drugaije, neku

urbanizam je, htjeli, ne htjeli, mraan

Piranesija, Gaudijagovorite o pojmu unutarnje

koreografiju, neki balet. A partijski vrh je

moj svetac. Ne Picasso, Picasso je moan, ali

posao, to je politika, to se itekako osjealo i u

arhitekture.

pristajao na sve to ja radim samo da se

ovaj mi je bio blii.

socijalizmu.

Bogdanovi: Pa, pogodili ste, Max Ernst je

Bogdanovi: Zaludna mistrija, to je kapitalna

pobjegne od sovjetskog modela. A nije se bilo

knjiga, a dovela je i do komplikacija. Govorilo

lako odlijepiti, nije bilo lako. Veliki majstori se

Grimmer: Ako krenemo na podruje vaih spomenika,

Grimmer: Kako ste za vrijeme pedagoke djelatnosti

se: to on to pie, on treba predavati kako

nisu od toga mogli odlijepiti. A onda je tu bilo

recimo i kod Ernsta postoje te skulpture, na primjer

tretirali studentekao sudionike u jednoj ravnopravnoj

se grade gradovi, kako se grade socijalistiki

jo netosad ne vjerujem da je to utjecalo na

skulptura Capricorn, koje su od betona i imaju neke

diskusiji ili je to bilo ex catedra.

gradovi. Pojam unutarnje arhitekture miljen

narudbeja nisam te spomenike naplaivao.

Bogdanovi: Katedra nikada nije bila. U

je ironino. Ja se podsmjehujem malo rjeniku

Ja sam striktno pokrivao svoje trokove koje

Bogdanovi: Mislim da je u onome to sam

ivotu dvaput isto predavanje nisam odrao,

svoje struke u tom pojmovnom ciklusu, pa

sam imao. Morao sam imati svoj automobil,

ja radio kao graditelj, u tim spomenikim

a profesori nose sa sobom skripte, itaju iz

kaem to je unutarnja arhitektura. Unutarnja

morao sam na silna putovanja, poneto

metalne aplikacije.

objektima koje sam radio moralo biti Ernsta.

njih. Ja sam improvizirao. Moja predavanja

arhitektura je u meni, koliko sam ja sebe

sam trebao da pomognem studentima koji

ak da ja i ne primijetim. Ja sam uvijek

su izgledala kao i ovaj razgovor. Vrlo brzo sam

napravio i koliko sam nekome uspio pomoi

su mi pomagali, materijal, to sam tono

smatrao legitimnim da ono to razumijem i

na uas svojih kolega prestao i davati ocjene.

da napravi sebe, itd. U tom pojmovnom

zaraunavao. Inae pravog honorara zapravo

osjeam u svojoj preradi, obradi i iskoristim.

Tko je neto uo od mene, uo je, da li e moi

ciklusu rije unutarnja arhitektura dobiva

nije bilo. Ja bih njima plaao da mogu raditi

neto od mene iskoristiti ja ne znam, ali da ja

ezoterino znaenje.

Grimmer: Vana tema kod vas je grad kao takav, urbs koji

dajem recepte to raditi i mislitineu. Osim

to to sam radio Jednom mi je u Beu prila

jedna ne ba sasvim mlada osoba i kae: Ja

vrlo sveobuhvatno vidite, za koji smatrate da ga treba

toga, urbanologijato je poslastica, tko hoe

spoznati svim osjetilima. Sjeam se onoga lijepog teksta

neto vidjeti i uti, moe shvatiti. Moda nee

podrujespomeniku gradnju. Ako se uzme u obzir

mene su mama i tata napravili na vaem

u kojem piete o Bologni kao gradu iz ijih dubokih

moi primijeniti, tj. sigurno nee moi. Uvijek

vrijeme u kojemu ste to radili i ako se prisjetimo tih

spomeniku. Ja sam to shvatio kao veliki

dvorita dopire svjeina, o Veneciji kao o ve pomalo

sam bio epicentar nediscipline, trudio sam se

raznoraznih spomenikih kompleksa i skulptura iz

kompliment. Onda sam se sjetio da su to

ocvaloj dami, sa karminom na usnama. To je opet

da budem zanimljiv.

tog vremena, onda je va rad neto to je dijametralno

radili i po Grkoj i da je to antiki dogaaj.

asocijativna strana stvari.

Grimmer: Dotakli smo ve vae veliko

sam iz Mostara, ne znam kako da vam kaem,

suprotno. Vi niste stvarali djela koja izazivaju respekt,

Bogdanovi: Pa hipostazirao sam gradove,

Grimmer: U tom smislu spominjete i filozofske etnje

bili su za mene bia; kao takvi su me i

sa studentima po raznim zakucima grada.

Bogdanovi: To je bilo veliko zadovoljstvo

privlaili. Priati takve prieuvijek su me

moda ak i strah, nego su to uvijek neka kraljevstva

Grimmer: Imate poseban odnos prema antici. U vaim

u koja se ulazi, kroz koja se prolazi, u kojima se moe

varijantama kapitela susreu se antika i nadrealizam,

provesti i itav dan.

ako se tako moe rei.

smatrali malo aknutim. Vrlo brzo sam

meni, koji sam Beograanin, to otkrivanje

Bogdanovi: Da, to je to. Ali to ne mogu ne

Bogdanovi: Cijela ta serija kapitela je nastala

shvatio da je urbanizam pun mafijakih,

grada, a studentima pogotovo. To su bile

povezati sa nadrealizmom, na kraju krajeva.

tako to sam ja samo obrnuo volute naopako

24

25

to je kabala, to je idovska mistika i tu sam

gradove.... A ja sam pisao o svemu i svaemu,

jedna nova estetika. Njih ima jako mnogo. U

Bogdanovi: On je bio bizaran. Meni je bilo

ve shvatio da postoji jedan udesan svijet koji

pisao sam o fasadama, bog zna kakve

knjizi Knjiga kapitela ih ima stotinu.

dovoljno to sam vidio da ga nije ostavilo

jo nisam dodirnuo. Od tog trenutka kad se ta

sam poeme pravio na trulim fasadama, o

krovovima, o podrumima, o pticama.

Grimmer: U emu je za njega bila ta bizarnost?

i onda je krenuo jedan sasvim nov sistem,

Grimmer: Antika vam je filozofski i po cijelom svom

kulturolokom kompleksu vrlo bliska.

ravnodunim. U onom jadnom i bijednom

perspektiva i antiperspektiva rodila iz jedne

Beogradu, u socrealistikoj arhitekturi, u

igre rijei, krenuo sam i vrlo brzo napravio

praznini i nevolji, kako je sve to izgledalo,

projekt.

Bogdanovi: Sve mi je bliskovidite da se ne

ak mi je i rije bizarno zvuala kao itava

ustruavam pokrasti Dalmaciju i prenijeti je

simfonija.

usred Beograda [kue na Avali iz 1952., op.a.].

Grimmer: Da li biste mogli neto rei o dijelu vaeg

ivota poslije Beograda. to u vaem profesionalnom i

Grimmer: Da li bogatstvo rijei moe generirati i

umjetnikom ivotu znai period od 90-ih godina kada

bogatstvo forme?

ste doli u Be?

Bogdanovi: Apsolutno, apsolutno. Meni

Bogdanovi: Tu negdje pred 90-te i 90-ih

Grimmer: Ipak, postoje li neka imena,

Bogdanovi: Dobio sam poziv za taj natjeaj.

su se rijei i forme u arhitekturi uvijek

ivjeli smo u velikom strahu. Stambolieva

periodi koji su vas osobito odredili.

Grimmer: Do toga spomenika ste doli natjeajem.

To je dugaka pria. Vratio sam se iz rata;

isprepletale. Ja sam vrlo esto na crteima

kerka je bila ubijena, a i Stamboli je bio

Bogdanovi: Kad se u ranoj mladosti

ratovao sam kratko, ali sam uspio biti

ispisivao neto, nepoznatim jezikom,

predvien za ubojstvo, to se na kraju i

inficirate nadrealizmom, onda to mora ii

prostrijeljen ovdje, kroz lijevi kuk. Ratovao

nepoznatim znacima.

dogodilo. Premda je on bio veliki optimist,

ovako kako je ilo, nema onda vie vraanja na

sam istinski, istinski sam i dobio to mi treba.

klasino stupnjevanje ideja.

Bio sam pozvan na natjeaj i nije me to tko zna

bio je ovdje i uvjeravao me: Ajde, vrati se u

Grimmer: Odakle su dolazili? Iz podsvijesti?

Beograd, nemoj se bojati. Totalno nije bio

kako oduevilo. Jer sam jo uvijek mislio da

Bogdanovi: Potpuno makinalno, ali da li

svjestan; to je velika tragedija i strana pria.

u ipak raditi pravu arhitekturu, nikad nisam

mi je u tom trenutku neto znailo, ne znam.

To je kruna ludila i uasa. Mislim, cijela ta

gradu, nehijerarhijskom pristupu gradu i pojedinim

ni pomiljao da u napraviti neki spomenik.

Vjerojatno.

pria, kako je sve to izvedeno, prosto, ne volim

arhitektonskim elementima koji ga ine vi moete i u

Vrijeme je prolazilo i ba mi nita nije padalo

jednome objektu, u jednoj arhitekturi iitati i grad kao

na pamet. I sretnem jednoga nadobudnog

Grimmer: Moe se rei da ste se u posljednje vrijeme

Beu mi je korigirao jednu veliku zabludu, a

takav, kao na primjeru Karlove crkve u Beu.

kolegu koji me preporuio za natjeaj, pa mi

vie orijentirali na pisanje.

to je da ja bez Beograda ne postojim. To je tako

Grimmer: U tom vaem sveobuhvatnom pristupu

priati o tome, ne volim se prisjeati. ivot u

Bogdanovi: Da, to me jako obuzimalo;

on kae: ujem da ti radi, a ja neu priznati

Bogdanovi: Zapravo nikad nisam prestajao

lijepo demantirano, znate. Poslije sam esto

Karlova crkva mi je jedan od repera, a znate

da ne radim. U emu je ideja? Ja poinjem

pisati. Stvar je u ovomemoj otac je bio

razmiljao to bi bilo da sam se otkaio ranije;

tko je mene upoznao s tom crkvomKrlea.

lagati: Zna, idovsko groblje, pa ona aleja

knjievni kritiar, majka je isto bila profesor

ne znam to bi bilo. Po Europi spomenike

sigurno ne bih radio. Biroi su biroi, na posao

On mi je rekao da je to genijalno i da to

koja ide, pa se stvara jedna vrsta perspektive. A

knjievnosti. Oni su bili u takvoj panici da ja

moram vidjeti. Mislim da mi je dao tu

onda odjednom, ja sad samo da bih ipak neto

na krenem meu pisce, jer su pisce poznavali.

ima i lijepe strane, ali i teke, mune i tragine

strane...

poetnu ideju, da ja tu neto traim, da

rekao kaem ide antiperspektiva i odmah

Plaili su se da me to ne povue da ne ostanem

cijelu zgradu shvatim kao metaforu. Sabire

mu kaem: Zdravo, moram ii. to ti je, veli

bez profesije. Moj ulazak u arhitektonsko

itavo ljudsko poimanje arhitekture. Znate, u

on. A ja odem to nacrtati. I to mi je bila najvea

pisanje je bilo jedna rubrika u Borbi koja se

ivotu je tako da vam ponekad netko neto

pouka u ivotuda su u arhitekturi prave

zvala Mali urbanizam. Pisana je ironino, za

kae usput, a poslije to ispadne jako vano. Ja

ideje esto verbalne; mislim da je Loos govorio

inat velikim urbanizmima, to je bio podtekst.

sam Krleu vodio da vidi idovski spomenik.

da se dobra arhitektura moe ispriati. Onda

Veliki urbanisti su pisali redakciji da to stvara

Mislim da je bio malo zauen jer je stalno

za mene poinje novi svijet. Odjedanput, kad

zabunu kod ljudi: Bogdanovi, to su neke

Izvorno objavljeno u asopisu za arhitekturu i

govorio: udno, bizarno, bizarno, bizarno...

sam shvatio da to moe tako, poeo sam traiti

njegove ideje, mi moramo graditi socijalistike

kulturu ORIS VIII4106

26

27

instead a
biography

Grimmer: If we were to introduce you, we would find

ourselves in quite a quandary because you have four
biographiesyou are an architect, visual artist, writer,
politician. Do you have a hierarchy in that sense?
Bogdanovi: I have always thought of it as
a whole. My personality was composite so
everything could be harmonized. I have often
thought about hierarchy. First of all, I am
an architect, somewhat a writer, somewhat
an artist and very little a politician. But that
very little was intense. However, I did not like
the politics, I was a politician because of the
situation at that time, I simply felt I should be
one. I reacted according to my temperament,
the counter reactions soon followed.

From the earliest age, Bogdan

Grimmer: As a professor of urbanism you stood up for

Bogdanovi entered the world of

other qualities, not pragmatic, useful urbanism. You

art in the house of his father, the

stood up against the urbanism of quantity. However,

famous literary critic and theatre

the factors that determined your professional path are

director Milan Bogdanovi, where

certainly much more complex.

Bogdanovi: I applied to be an assistant

he met Miroslav Krlea at the age

bogdan bogdanovi/
cities are beings
28

of seven. The circle of Belgrade

lecturer at the Chair of Urbanism because

surrealist around Marko Risti

at the time when I graduated, architecture

Stambene kue

decisively determined his personal

in Yugoslavia was poor, with only two types

Instituta za

style in three media monument

of windows, so my previous fantasies could

hidrotehniku

architecture, drawing and

not have fitted into this poor, ostensibly

Jaroslav erni, Avala,

literature. In his artistic as well

functional architecture. My studies began

Beograd / Apartment

political life, Bogdanovi never

before the war, I went to study architecture

houses for the

went the easy way, but always

from a surrealist milieu. I even made a

Hydrotechnical

swam against the current...

program and titled it Vers une architecture

Institute Jaroslav

surealiste, paraphrasing Corbusier. I wanted

erni, Avala,

to create surrealist architecture, and that had

Belgrade 19521954.

Interviewed by Vera Grimmer

to involve willing clients, such as the case

in Vienna, May 29, 2006

with the house for Tristan Tzara. During the

29

war, I had fun with Marko Risti by ostensibly

Grimmer: Surrealism has been subversively present

helped the unfortunate. But it was great as a

to watch my back. I saw that he showed up,

designing a silly house for him, where you

for many centuries nowfrom Hieronimus Bosch or

speculation.

was reluctant to sit down, looking to sit in the

could slide from the upper floor to the lower

the amazing chambers of Mannerism, all the way to

one, full of surprises. If it were possible, that

Bretons movement. It is a little bit suppressed, but today

Grimmer: Perhaps it would be interesting

whole conference hall went silent. I came to

is how I would have made architecture. In

is perhaps the time when it is resurfacing again, when

to find out something from your

him and asked him to sit by me. Id love that,

experience with the surrealist circle.

my circle, we were all surrealists and left-

people are again interested in it, because in the totally

oriented, and when our leftist society arrived,

regulated time of globalization and profit, there is again

we saw that surrealist exhibitions were not

a need for certain anarchy.

front row, then giving up I stood up and the

he said. We sat down, the silence grew deeper,

Bogdanovi: You cannot speak of the

and then there was a round of applause for

moment I was accepted into the surrealist

Koa Popovi.

going to happen. In despair, I decided to go for

Bogdanovi: I would like to see your

society without giving an overview of the

urbanism because it was in a way a scientific

prediction come true. However, it does not

moral and literary situation in Yugoslavia

Grimmer: Your drawings of these fantastic

discipline.

matter now, but then again it does. I have

at that time. Surrealism was from Belgrade,

creaturescreatures and houses at the same time, in a

way they remind me of oneiric creatures of Max Ernst.

But the radical change in my life

always thought that surrealism draws deep

but inseparable from Krlea. Krlea did not

occurred when I won the competition for

roots from history, history of art, history of

like surrealism, but wasnt allowed to admit

Bogdanovi: You guessed it right, Max Ernst

the monument to Jewish victims in Belgrade.

civilization. I suppose that the true surrealists

it. They adored him, and he had a very good

is my idol. Not Picasso, Picasso is powerful,

All of a sudden, a new world of symbols and

of that time would not mind. Surrealism is a

relationship with them. Due to this phase

bur Ernst was much closer to me.

comparative meanings opened. That is when I

continuation of romanticism.

and his associating with the surrealists, he

started to think in strata terms. I am a modern

architect, but I can also think in a non-

Grimmer: Bretonian surrealism was also enriched in the

contemporary way. My first houses on Avala

context of the development of psychoanalysis.

Bogdanovi: You should accept this as an

near Belgrade from the early 50s were full

made it onto the Communist Partys black

Grimmer: If we look at your monuments, for

list, I think he was never forgiven for this,

example, Ernst also has such sculptures, for

but this was always suppressed. There was

example the sculpture Capricorn, made

a circle of Bretonian surrealists around

of concrete with metal applications.

of reminiscence. My friend was an engineer

arbitrary play of words, but psychoanalysis

Marko Risti, Duan Mati and Aleksandar

Bogdanovi: I think there was something

at the Hydro-technical Institute, so these

draws its roots from romanticism. Perhaps

Vuo, and there was another surrealist group

Ernst-like in the things I made as a

houses were intended for their employees.

it is absurd for me to say that, but it seems to

that was not Bretonian, but Aragonian, who

constructor, in those monumental structures,

They could have easily been somewhere in

be so.

were Stalinist. From the Belgrade surrealist

without me even noticing it. I always thought

group later emerged excellent generals in the

it legitimate to use the things I understand

revolutionKoa Popovi and others.

and feel in my processing.

the Mediterranean, but I did not think they

Grimmer: Surely you can argue this.

would look Mediterranean when I built

them. They were built in the old fashioned

Bogdanovi: To penetrate the lower layers,

way, completely made of stone. The houses

deep down, just take romanticist literature

secret Bretonian. The Party merely tolerated

Grimmer: One of the topics important to

were surreal, but were not widely approved

and surrealismFreudianism came out of this

such views. But he remained a surrealist

you is the city as such, the urbs you see very

of in my profession, since everybody was so

spiritual state.

to the bone, to the last breath. When I was

comprehensively, that you think should be

mayor, I met him in a situation when he was

comprehended with all senses. I remember the

modern, modern to the bone. They barely

Grimmer: Perhaps it came to be from the illness of time.

managed to detach from social realism, and

To be precise, I think Popovi was a

proscribed. I invited him to a medal awards

nice text in which you write about Bologna as a

Bogdanovi: Yes, from the illness of time

ceremony, and he showed up all panicking.

city from whose deep backyards comes freshness,

thing again. But they did not understand the

Freud drew his great speculation. It is a

You have to know that I as mayor pulled

about Venice as a lady past its prime with lipstick

surrealist basis.

completely different matter how much it

various stunts because I had Ivan Stamboli

on. That again is the associative side of things.

then somebody comes along to do the same

30

31

Bogdanovi: Well, I hypostasized cities, they

walks with your students through different hidden

were beings for me, and as such they attracted

corners of the city.

me. Everybody thought I was a little bit wacky

Bogdanovi: That was a great pleasure for

for telling such stories. Very soon I realized

me, as a citizen of Belgrade, and especially for

that urbanism is full of mafia and political

the students, this discovery of the city. Those

traps, that you stumble over the interests of

were the generations that came from outside.

the underground. I always tried to distance

This crawling into cellars, climbing onto attics,

myself from all that in running this urbanism,

discussions with various original types in

I was in the situation where I was elected as

bars. Many topics were discussed, we just took

assistant professor. I then changed the title

care not to discuss politics.

of the coursenot Urbanism but Urbanology.

I was free to think about the city without

Grimmer: In the book Zaludna mistrijathe book on the

practical urbanism. And practical urbanism

brotherhood of futile and tragic constructorsPalladio,

is a dark affair, whether you like it or not, it is

Borromini, Piranesi, Gaudi, you speak about the notion

politics. It was greatly felt in socialism as well.

of internal architecture.
Bogdanovi: Zaludna mistrija, it is a capital

Grimmer: How did you treat your students during

book, and it brought too many complications.

your pedagogical years? Did you treat them as equals in

They said, What is he writing, he should be

discussion, or was it all ex catedra?

teaching how to build cities, how to build

Bogdanovi: It was never ex catedra. I never

socialist towns. The notion of internal

held the same lecture twice. Professors always

architecture was thought of ironically. I am

carry scripts around with them, read from

mocking a little the vocabulary of my trade

them. I improvised. My lectures were just like

in that definition cycle so let me say what

this interview. Very soon I stopped grading

internal architecture is. Internal architecture

my students, to the horror of my colleagues.

is in me, how much I made myself and how

Whoever heard something from me, heard

much I helped someone to make themselves

it. Now, were they able to use something

etc. In that notional cycle, the word internal

from me, I dont know, but I did not want to

architecture has an esoteric meaning.

give recipes what to do and think. Besides,

Partizanska akro-nekropola u Mostaru /

urbanology is a treat. Anyone who wants

Partisan acro-necropolis in Mostar 19591965.

to see and hear something, can. Perhaps

they will not be able to apply it, that is, they
certainly will not. I was always the epicentre
of indiscipline, I always tried to be interesting.
Grimmer: In that sense you mention philosophical

Partizanska nekropola je bila

Mostar u malom, replika grada na
Neretvi, njegov idealni dijagram./
32

Grimmer: We have already discussed another great

field of yours, monument construction. If we take into

Partisan necropolis was a model

of Mostar, the city on the river
Neretva, its ideal diagram.

account the time you made it in, and if we recall the

various monumental complexes and sculpture of that
time, then your work is something that is diametrically
opposite. You did not create works that command

33

respect or even fear, these were always kingdoms you

ancient times. Your capitals combine antiquity

entire human notion of architecture. You

enter, you go through, and spend the entire day in.

with surrealism, if I can put it that way.

know, it is very important that once in a while

Bogdanovi: Yes, that is it. In the end, they

Bogdanovi: This whole series of capitals

somebody tells you something incidentally

cannot but to connect it to surrealism. How

was created by me turning the volutes upside

that later turns out to be quite important. I

was it even possible for these monuments

down, creating a completely new system, a

took Krlea to see a Jewish monument. I think

to be made, why were these monuments

new aesthetics. There are a lot of them. The

he was a little bit amazed, because he kept

even being made, why did I receive

Book of Capitals has hundreds of them.

saying, Weird, bizarre, bizarre, bizarre.

orders? At a certain moment, when we had

already been completely through with the

Grimmer: Antiquity seems very close to you, in

Russians, monumental architecture was still

philosophical terms and in its entire cultural complex.

dominated by the Soviet modelfist, energy,

Bogdanovi: Everything was close to

Grimmer: Why was it bizarre to him?

Bogdanovi: He was bizarre. I was pleased
that he was not left indifferent by it. In the

the future etc. And then comes a darker

meyou saw that I did not hesitate to steal

poor and miserable socialist architecture of

older guy who starts to do things differently,

from Dalmatia and transfer it to the center of

Belgrade, in the emptiness and trouble, as it

with choreography, ballet. And the head of

Belgrade (houses on Avala, 1952).

seemed to me then, even the word bizarre

the Party agreed to everything I did, just to

sounded like a symphony.

break loose from the Soviet model. It was

Grimmer: Are there any names or periods

not easy. The grand masters could not break

that defined you specifically?

Grimmer: You won the competition for that monument.

loose from it. And then there was something

Bogdanovi: When you are bitten by the

Bogdanovi: I was invited to that

else I do not believe now that it affected

surrealism bug early in your youth, then it

competition. It is a long story. I came back

orders, I did not charge any money for the

had to go like it went with me, there was no

from the war. I was in combat very briefly

monuments. I strictly covered my costs. I had

return to the classic grading of ideas.

but I managed to get myself shot through the

to have a car because of all the travelling, I

left hip. I was really in combat, and I truly got

needed something to support the students

Grimmer: In your comprehensive and non-

what I needed. I was invited, but I was not

who were helping me, to buy the material, I

hierarchical approach to the city and certain

very much pleased by it because I thought

charged correctly. There were no real fees.

architectural elements that make it, you can read

I was going to do some real architecture, I

I would have paid them to do what I was

an entire city from only one building, like for

never thought I would be doing a monument.

doing Once I was approached in Vienna by

example from the St. Charles Church in Vienna.

Time went by and not a single idea crossed

a not so young person who told me, I come

Bogdanovi: Yes, I was completely

my mind. I met the eager colleague who

from Mostar. I dont know how to tell you, but

overwhelmed by it, the St. Charles Church

recommended me for the competition. He

I was conceived on one of your monuments. I

is one of my landmarks, and you know who

said, I hear you are working, and I was

received that as a great compliment. I recalled

introduced me to that churchKrlea. He

reluctant to admit I was not. When he asked

that similar things were done in Greece,

told me it was brilliant and that I should see

what my idea was, I started lying, You know,

making it an ancient event.

it. I think it was him who gave me this initial

the Jewish cemetery and the tree-lined

Grimmer: You have a special relation with

34

idea to start exploring, to consider the entire

Memorijalni park za rtve faizma u Vukovaru / Memorial Park

boulevard creates a certain perspective as

building as a metaphor. It epitomizes the

for the victims of fascism in Vukovar 19781980.

it goes along, and then I said, followed by

35

anti-perspective. At that moment I just said,

Bye, I have to leave now. He was puzzled. And
I went home and put it to paper. And I think

Bogdanovi: Basically, I never stopped

Bogdanovi: We were living in great fear

writing. The thing is that my father was a

around the 1990s. Stambolis daughter was

literary critic and my mother a professor of

murdered, and Stambolis murder was also

this was the greatest moral in my life that

literature. They were in such a panic, they

plotted, and eventually it happened. He was a

in architecture actual ideas are often very

were concerned that I could become a writer

great optimist though, he used to come here

much verbal, I think that Loos said that good

because they knew a lot of them. They were

trying to persuade me to return to Belgrade,

architecture can be explained with words. A

concerned that I would get drawn into it

without fear. He was totally unaware of the

whole new world opened to me after that.

and lose my job. My entry into architectural

situation, it is a great tragedy and a horrific

All of a sudden, when I realized that it can

writing was in a section of Borba called

story.

be done, I began exploring Kabbalah, Jewish

Little urbanism. It was written ironically, to

mysticism, and then I realized that there is

spite big urbanism, that was its subtext. Big

That is the height of madness and horror.

I mean, the way this entire story turned out,

another amazing world I have not touched

urbanists wrote letters to the editors that it

how simple, I really do not like talking about

yet. From the moment when this perspective

greatly confused people. Bogdanovi has his

it and recalling it. Living in Vienna corrected

and anti-perspective was born from a play of

ideas, but we have to build socialist towns

a great delusion in my life, and that is that I

words, I started and very quickly completed

And I wrote about many things, I wrote

cannot exist without Belgrade. That idea was

the project.

about faades, wrote God knows what kinds

so nicely rejected, you know. Later I often

Grimmer: Can richness of words generate

of poems about deteriorating faades, roofs,

thought what would have happened if I had

basements, birds

gone crazy earlier. I cannot tell. I surely would

not have been building monuments around

richness of form?
Bogdanovi: Absolutely. I would be lying

Grimmer: Can you say something about your life after

if I said that I always whisper something to

Belgrade? What did your coming to Vienna in the 1990s

nice sides, but also darker, painful and tragic

myself when I am drawing. But perhaps I am

mean in a professional and artistic sense?

sides.

Europe. Offices are offices, our job has its

not lying. For me, words and forms always

overlap in architecture. Very often I wrote
things on my drawings in unknown languages,
unknown symbols.
Grimmer: Where did this come from? The
subconscious?
Spomenik palim borcimauvarima

Bogdanovi: Completely automatically, but I

slobode na Klisu kraj Splita / Monument

do not know whether it meant something to

for the fallen members of antifascist

me at that moment, probably it did.

resistance, Guardians of Freedom, on Klis

near Split 19821987. Razmontiran

Grimmer: Lately you have been much

Originally published in the magazine for

1996. godine / Dismantled in 1996.

more oriented to writing.

architecture and culture ORIS VIII4106

36

37

Popina kod Trstenika

Ratniki mauzolej / Warriors
Mausoleum 19791981.

Seoska kola filozofije

arhitekture u Malom Popoviu
/ Village School for Philosophy
of Architecture in Mali Popovi

38

39

bogdan bogdanovi
ukleti neimar/the doomed architect

Koriteni citati iz / Quotations from

Izloba je dio dugoronih UIII

Bogdanovi, Bogdan: Ukleti neimar / The

projekata / Exhibition is a part

Gliptoteka HAZU Medvedgradska 2

Doomed Architect. Novi Sad: Mediterran

of AIIR long term projects

931. listopada / October 931, 2012

Publishing, 2011, str./p. 142, 143, 237, 248

MnemosyneKazalite sjeanja /

Curators / Kustosi

Ivekovi, Rada, Bogdanovi, Bogdan:

Ivan Risti Sonja Lebo

Eseji, Beograd: Prosveta, 1986. str./p.7 1

U suradnji sa / In cooperation with

Maja Kuan, kustosica zbirke Donacija
BB, JUSP Jasenovac / Curator of the

Fotografije / Photos courtesy of

Architekturzentrum Wien

MnemosyneTheatre of Memories
http://www.theatreofmemories.org
aRs PUBLICAe /1%zaumjetnost
http://1postozaumjetnost.wordpress.com
Zahvaljujemo / We thank to

Collection Donation by BB, Memorial

Fotografija na stranicama / Photo pages

Friedrich Achleitner Duan Bogdanovi

Site Jasenovac

1213 Andrija Zelmanovi

Robert Janovsky Petar Milat Dean

a01, 1415 Damil Kalogjera

Mileta Aneta Mudronja Pletenac

39 Jadranka Vinterhalter arhiv

Ronald Panza Vjeran Pavlakovi

Oblikovanje postava / Exhibition design

Sonja Lebo
Medijska instalacija / Media Installation

Izloba je inicirana od strane

Ivan Marui Klif

Austrijskog kulturnog foruma u

Autori tekstova u katalogu /

Authors of the texts in the catalogue
Vera Grimmer Sonja Lebo
Grafiko oblikovanje projekta /
Graphic design Dejan Kri
pisma / typography Marlene Typonine
[Nikola Djurek Typonine] ITC Fat Face

Zagrebu i organizirana u suradnji s /

Exhibition is initated by the Austrian

Monika Platzer Manja Risti Andrija

Rusan Dietmar Steiner Saa impraga
Ale Vodopivec Nikola Zelmanovi
Naroita zahvala / Special thanks

Cultural Forum in Zagreb and

Ksenija Anastasijevi Bogdanovi Vera

organized in cooperation with

Grimmer Damil Kalogjera Ariana Kralj

Architekturzentrum Wien

Sarita Matijevi Milorad Mladenovi

Ksenija Anastasijevi Bogdanovi

Josip Uaj Jadranka Vinterhalter Andrija

Udruga za interdisciplinarna i

Zelmanovi elimir ilnik

interkulturalna istraivanja (UIII) /

Nakladnik / Publisher UIII/AIIR

Association for Interdisciplinary &

Za nakladnika / For the publisher

Intercultural Research (AIIR)

Sonja Lebo

Gliptoteka HAZU / Glyptotheque

Tisak / Print Tiskara Zelina

Croatian Academy of Sciences & Art

Naklada / Edition 200

Vera Grimmer

Cijena / Price 50kn

Spomen-podruje Jasenovac /

ISBN 978-953-55557-5-9

Jasenovac Memorial Site

Hrvatska akademija
znanosti i umjetnosti
Gliptoteka

Podrka / Support
Austrijski kulturni forum
Ministarstvo kulture RH