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Ho Chi Minh City University of Technology

and Education
CEO Key to Success

CEO Key to Success

CEO PHAN VĂN MINH

08: Regain Viet Nam’s Self-Pride

1. Definition
1.1.Definition of CEO

A chief executive officer (CEO) is the highest-ranking executive in a company.


Broadly speaking, a chief executive officer’s primary responsibilities include making
major corporate decisions, driving the workforce and resources of a company toward
strategic goals, and acting as the main point of communication between the board of
directors and corporate operations. In many cases, the chief executive officer serves
as the public face of the company.

1.2.Functions of CEO

+ Develop effective business strategies and plans in line with the company's short
+ and long-term goals.
+ Administer and implement approved plans through the board
+ Building and nurturing the company culture.
+ Organizing, directing, monitoring, and evaluating the company's business
activities regularly.
+ Make informed investment decisions to drive business operations and increase
profits
+ Appraisal and approval of the company's investment projects
+ Being accountable to the company's board of directors, legal requirements,
employees, customers, and society.
+ Directing and implementing business plans approved by the Board of
Directors.
+ Making decisions, providing opinions, and proposing improvements for the
company.
+ Developing and promoting the company's brand image.
+ Organize, establish, and administer the management apparatus of the company.
+ Evaluate and orient the activities of departments accordingly and effectively
+ Review financial and non-financial statements to come up with improved
solutions
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CEO Key to Success

+ Build strong relationships with partners and shareholders, be the focal point of
communication with them
+ Responsible for evaluating and monitoring the organization's performance,
ensuring that predetermined goals and criteria are met.

2. Introducing CEO Phan Van Minh


Phan Van Minh was born on March 6, 1962. Mr. Phan Van Minh has held
significant positions within a large confectionery corporation in Vietnam. With 19
years of accompanying the business, he has accumulated a wealth of experience in
sales, marketing, and management. Therefore, when the brand he had been closely
associated with was sold to a foreign entity, partly due to a sense of regret and
partly due to confidence in his knowledge, he and some colleagues decided to
establish their own company.

Santa was founded in the middle of 2016, driven by the passionate desire of its
founding team that Vietnamese hands would bring high-quality products to the
Vietnamese people.
Originating from high-ranking leaders in a "wealthy" enterprise, well-versed in
the market and rich in expertise, Santa's founders confidently entered the big game.
"We devoted all resources to investing in the most modern production line and
aggressively recruited personnel, with the goal of rapidly increasing the company's
sales. However, it was a mistake when your business is just stepping into the
market," entrepreneur Phan Van Minh shared.

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Mr. Minh recalled that after Santa's first product, Merry coconut milk cake,
was positively received in the northern market, the company decided to invest more
in the production line, expand production to prepare for the launch of new product
lines, and simultaneously expand distribution channels to the central and southern
regions. Just when everyone was hopeful and believed in Santa's bright future, sales
unexpectedly plummeted, the distributed cakes remained unsold, and distributors
refused to accept additional products.
Under pressure with dwindling cash flow and the daunting prospect of settling
debts (labor, raw materials, bank loans), nearing the brink of bankruptcy, Phan Van
Minh calmly realized that his business was still small, with limited potential, but
had built a "wealthy" model.
A considerable amount of capital had been poured into investing in equipment
and machinery, with no financial resources for branding, so not many consumers
knew about the products. But the biggest drawback was that the company
"embraced" an overly extensive distribution network, paying salaries on an all-
inclusive basis. Employees received salaries, but did not fully utilize their
capabilities; hence, distributors ordered 10, but sometimes only sold 2, leading to
high inventory.
Realizing the mistake early on, Phan Van Minh and the founding team quickly
returned to the essence of being a small business, requiring management in a small-
scale model. After careful deliberation, the leadership decided to cut all costs to
have resources for branding and applied a self-sufficient mechanism to boost sales.
Santa's first strategy in repositioning its "poor" business was profit-sharing
with distributors and retailers to encourage them to remain loyal to the company. In
return, this system had to take primary responsibility for effectively controlling the
marketing and sales team. Along with that, the company changed its salary
structure. By attaching self-sufficiency to benefits, meaning income was based on
productivity, the higher the sales, the higher the income, creating motivation, and
employees actively and responsibly sold more.
In addition, according to entrepreneur Phan Van Minh, product quality is
always a decisive factor in the success of a business. Amidst the prevalence of
contaminated food, counterfeit products, and confusion between genuine and fake
items, what Santa prioritized was producing delicious, safe, and nutritionally
guaranteed products. Therefore, in addition to using ingredients from famous
domestic suppliers, the company also imported many products directly from France
to create unique cake flavors.
"We are committed to using good materials for the health of consumers. At the
same time, Santa will continually strive to bring quality, unique products to the

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market, meeting the increasing expectations of customers," affirmed Phan Van


Minh.
In the CEO - True Stories program (a program produced by Vietnam
Television), Phan Van Minh shared profound lessons about managing a small
business that helped Santa conquer the market and continuously expand its
distribution network nationwide. The company's factory, covering over 5,000 m2, is
operating at full capacity, producing quality products, promising the mark of a new
brand in the Vietnamese confectionery industry.

3. The viewpoints of CEOs from other companies

 Mr. Nguyen Van Met - Director of Met Food Trading and Distribution
Company Limited: "All the distributors refused to sell our products. So instead of
selling through the traditional channel, which is the HORECA channel, we now sell
directly to restaurants, cafes, or even cooperate with businesses."

 Mrs. Nguyen Thi Quynh Nguyen - Chairwoman of the Board of Directors of


Anapath Vietnam-Korea Medical Equipment Company: “Going to the distributor is
one thing, but the important thing when producing this product is to target the tastes
of adults or children. If we just produce it in general, it will not highlight our brand.”

 Mr. Ly Dinh Quoc Vu - Deputy Chairman of Phong Thuy Huu Thuong


Company: "Since we are very familiar with the market, we definitely conduct field
research. I guess it's because the product was launched at the wrong time. It's clearly
a product that is selling very well and people are investing heavily, but the market
suddenly stopped."

 Mr. Dinh Hoang Minh Tri - CEO of 3T Mart Trading and Export Service
Company: "Here, you are too confident in relying on the so-called decisive factors to
bring the product to market."

 Mr. Hac Van Mai - CEO & Founder of Muoi Tam Cong Binh Duong Joint
Stock Company: "Even if we don't have money, we still have to go because we have
to save some of the unsold cakes. So we have to go, but if we need money to go, then
we don't have any money left."

 Mr. Dang Van Hai - Chairman of the Board of Directors of Tien Khang
International Joint Stock Company: "Why are our products stagnant? Have you ever
worked directly with those distributors? Sometimes, when our competitors come,
they offer higher revenue and higher discounts, so those distributors will be willing to
earn more money instead of selling our products with lower profits."

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and Education
CEO Key to Success

 Mr. Duong Hong Minh - Chairman of SOGROUP Company Limited: "There


could be a reason for this. When a new startup starts up, large foreign corporations
use certain methods to slow down their distribution channels. In my opinion, we
should take advantage of the national spirit and encourage them and Vietnamese
startup businesses to win in the market."

4. CEO Actions
4.1.Actions
After working a long time for a big company, Phan Van Minh got a lot of
experiences in sales, marketing, management, etc. Then, at the age of 42, he
decided to start-up. Even he and his partner got enough skills, experiences and
money but they face many difficulties. Sometimes, every effort seem to be nothing
left. After many times seeking funds, he got enough money to buy machines,
materials, factories, etc. But the quality of the biscuit wasn’t good, he continued to
find out how to make a good biscuit. After all, he found a good receipt for the first
biscuit.
And the difficulties still there, the company’s going to bankrupt. Then, he finds
out another way to help his company work better. Everything was better, more and
more products were made, factories were bigger than it was. It a candy, biscuit
trademark of Viet Nam

4.2.Obstacles
+ Lack of careful, forget to make some preventive plans: Been success at first,
Minh and his partner forget about backup plans
+ Receipt for biscuits and candies: got machines but they didn’t know how to make
things fit for people to use
+ Financial pressure: Bank dept, the salary of workers, materials price
+ Cash flow management: wrong way to do so they lack of funds to complete tasks
4.3.Solutions
Fixing the wrong, he and his partner change the business model, they decided
to share profits with distributors and points of sale, to encourage them to continue
to stick with the company and make more efforts. The more products they sell, the
more profitable they are. The same goes for employees, the way they are paid is
also changed, linked to the self-employment mechanism, the better they do, the
higher their income. They launch products that many businesses do business
together to have resources to survive. After that, there will be unique and different
products.

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4.4.Success
The factory has a scale of 5,000 m2, two modern production lines. All Santa
products are made with the best ingredients, ensuring the health of consumers.
Santa's products have initially made a difference in the market. To the point, many
foreign manufacturers have come to cooperate. There are also businesses with over
100 years of global development.
5. Result
Santa has faced a lot of challenges through their journey. Building a
Vietnamese biscuit brand and sharing joy with consumers Vietnamese biscuit brand
brings happiness to users. Start from small jobs to conquer the market with
creativity. However, looking back, there’s a lot of things happened, he changed the
business model, reduced costs, divided profits and created greater pressure on the
team. He understood that spirit and unity of determination are extremely important.
He got confidence and decisiveness in business. His mindset shift from being an
employee to being an owner. Using creativity instead of experience and flexibility
instead of scale.

6. CEO RoundTable

MC Nguyen Khang said: “Ladies and gentlemen, we will not sit still and wait for our
business to die we have found many solutions to change ourselves and just now did
not see Mr. Phan Van Minh notice and laugh twice when Mr. Thai Quoc Minh gave
the first analysis that it is a small business but play like a big business and the second
thing is your distribution system, right? Twice I noticed you nodded, in your sharing,
through the analysis of Mr. Hao and Mr. Minh, how do you feel that both the brothers
and sisters in CEO coffee shop as well as Mr. Huynh and Mr. Thai Quoc Minh are
really right about the problem that Santa company faces, the founders of Santa are
very experience in the industry, but like you said, your mindset is that of a big
company and along with that is the initial step is very convenient, it makes too
confident to decide whether expand the distribution system. At first, the
company also considered begging quite cautious and focused on working the
Northern market first and then “South Move”, but after we launched in first 3
months, the progress was beyond expectations, so “Southern Move” was very quickly
excited and too confident to move into the South in a quick way. And that is what
cause the company’s fixed costs to increase very high. As Mr. Hao said, he also
analyzed very accurately the company’s biggest problem, which is new brand. In
fact, the point sale supports it because the point of sale has the opportunity to use
your they are invited to try it and they really like your product and also willing to
import my product, but where are the consumers? There are many opportunities to try
while they are not many resources to create brand, their impact on consumers does

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not have the opportunity to influence and that at that time the product is turned off on
the channel, along with that is the problem. My policy is that I build it like a
company whose product are already running well, not like a new company that
initially requires outstanding effort from the team. There are two basic points. That
version is that both of you analyzed very thoroughly.”
Mr. Thai Quoc Minh asked:” When you encountered difficulties did you feel
pressured by the bank? “
CEO Phan Van Minh answered: I almost had nights which i awakened all with the
pressure of the band.”
Mr. Thai Quoc Minh continued to ask:” Like that according to you. It takes 3 months
for you to sell the product. It in case you can’t find a solution, how do you handle the
relationship with the bank in your financial plant?

CEO Phan Van Minh: “Let’s consider Cash Flow. I know about the cash flow
coming in, and in that context I had to ask for support from my friends to help me
settle the outstanding accounts and after that, I had to wait 3 months for them work
and go to the market, research and edit, then the cash flow will be enough to cover
the expenses.”

Mr. Thai Quoc Minh added: “Fortunately, you have a very short time. What if startup
businesses don't recognize their nature and turn back? If you are correct in your
position, then the price will definitely be the entire company because according to
you, you used too much bank capital. Second, the way to go, I feel that after leaving
the Edit Phase is completely suitable because we are small and don't have a name yet.
The best thing to do is build a name, the quality of the product. The second is the
marketing team and the direct marketing team is the sales team. If you can do that,
then you can definitely do it. Thirdly, the mechanism of large enterprises is to pay
relatively subsided salaries without adequately evaluating the effectiveness, while
small and medium-sized startups pay incentive salaries or performance-based
salaries, which means that the more I pay you, the more profit the company makes.
With a startup and with today's technology, we can use a system to do everything
from payroll to bonuses, but the important thing is that you have to negotiate with the
workers and let them know that for every 100 dong of profit, we will pay you 35
dong, and then we have to pay taxes, so in the end, the profit that the business owner
receives is even lower than yours, so the workers are very happy about that. The
biggest asset of a startup is its name, not its machines or products.”

CEO Phan Van Minh agreed with that: “That's right. When cash flow doesn't go as
planned, founders are forced to sit down and reevaluate carefully. At this point, they
realize that in order to sell products, in addition to the push force - the sales team, the
pull force from the brand and the marketing team is also extremely important. They
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CEO Key to Success

were completely confident in their sales team and focused on the push force, but they
forgot about the pull force from consumers.”

CEO Phan Van Minh continued: “Regarding what you shared about profit sharing, I
think that is a very good idea. At Santa, at that time, I asked the management
accountant to analyze and report a clear financial report, and held a meeting with all
the department heads to help them understand the company's context. At that time,
the most basic message I gave was this: We switched from fixed costs to variable
costs and linked it to a mechanism where the higher the results people achieve, the
higher their income will be. This way, fixed costs are reduced, but the income of the
employees is increased. That is the core thing that helps turn the situation around.”

Mr. Thai Quoc Minh: “Not many companies dare to apply that theory. It is rare for a
boss to announce to his workers that I earn 100 dong, how much do you earn, how
much do I earn.”

Mr. Thai Quoc Minh gives an example: “More than 3 months ago, we established a
financial company. After 3 months, we had nearly 2,000 employees, while at that
time the recruitment market was very difficult. After nearly 3 months, we had nearly
10,000 customers, deployed business in 30 provinces after 3 months, and the revenue
increased to many billions, with the only condition that I issued a policy of not
controlling the salary ceiling of anyone. Because how much you do, I will take the
percentage and divide it, so the business has a saving.”

Then Mr. Thai Quoc Minh concluded: “Not paying overtime pay to workers is easy
to violate labor laws. But here, the workers volunteer to work overtime because they
earn much higher wages. The motivation is transparency in the relationship between
employers and employees. And we always value our employees as partners in our
business. I believe that if you apply these things to startups, because to be honest, our
company is also newly established and has only been in business for more than 3
months. If you can implement these things, the cohesion and attraction of talent will
be faster.”

MC Nguyen Khang: “In this case, when our products go to market, we are stuck.
Usually, Asian businesses will have a situation where the sales team will fluctuate
and the market of the business is where it competes. It lies with the distributor, it lies
with the on-site agent. There it sells a lot of products and the vehicle forces of Asian
companies are converging there, meeting each other there, competitive market
business policy, it’s located there and you also have those relationships. Sometimes
the current situation is a sale they do for many businesses so that we don’t know.
Therefore, when the market for goods is difficult, if people are responsible and
conscientious, they will do it. How can we discuss with the business to have
appropriate business policies to promote. Actually after the process is short, not very
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long, but the founder also realizes what it is. In addition to the fact that we have a
good heart and good skills, another important thing is to help those who accompany
us understand the context of the business, understand the current situation of the
business. And there are mechanisms to help demonstrate their abilities and be
rewarded appropriately for those results. I find that in addition to ability, spirit and
determination are extremely important, the difficulties will be overcome of course,
we must have a good product.”

MC Nguyen Khang continued: “Thank you, Mr. Minh Nguyen Khanh. Please allow
me to ask Mr. Hao a little if Mr. Hao has an opinion. It’s that Mr. Phung is too
confident about whether he wants to start his own business or not Because with what
he does it seems like everything happens too quickly and without predicting the risks
that we will have to encounter when facing.

Mr. Hao personally, what do you think about Mr. Minh is very strong confidence in
this case?”

Mr. Le Phung Hao replied: “I think that confidence is something everyone should
learn when he steps out of his comfort zone. He worked for a big company, which not
everyone has. And of course that’s something that I think is very interesting in this
path. As a business owner, if he steps over a tree blocking his path, he has a forest in
front of him, not just stepping over that tree and that’s all. Minh has strong points.
Yes, about that. To be decisive about separation and indifference, he must know how
to combine the people with fill analysis laid out in front of him, then he will make a
decision. That means teams and of course, her, when starting a business, everyone
loans to use borrowed capital, they have to use traps, but when using loan capital like
must be analyzed, there must be analysis, there must be solutions that is more
comprehensive way to have long term capital or how to solve the problem of
knowing how long-term capital is working and in what cases don’t have a business
that I bult, so I only follow one plan that is the best and most convenient and I should
have many plans to help back up.

MC Khang Nguyen: “Actually, in this story, according to Nguyen Khang’s sharing,


Mr. Minh has a whole Core and he has a whole core team who are people worked
with him in previous company. That’s why I wonder why this successful company
which ranked number one, what I mean Mr. Minh’s ability to work and your
experience, according to Nguyen Khang, being 25 years in this field. That’s enough
for him and his partner to start their own business and be able to withstand all the
random predictions. But why did I immediately encounter this problem when I
stopped out, initially, was very cautious.”

Phan Van Minh: “At first, I had planned 2 to 3 backups, but like I said I was in first 3
months of launching, it was extremely successful in the North of Viet Nam.
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MC Nguyen Khang asked: “what month was at first?”


Phan Van Minh: “About August of the year 2017”
MC Nguyen Khang: “Nearly end of the year”

MC Phan Van Minh: “When I launched very successfully and it made me overfull of
confident that I forgot about the backup plans behind. And there’s another factor
that’s probably not something that not I’m alone facing, which is empiricism, so I’m
thinking about starting plan. Initially, it’s quite safe to have roadmap, but the first
steps but the first thing was exceeding my expectation, I forget the very basic things
to be careful in all cases. There’s actually a lucky point as myself sees that I have
friends being willing to lend me money in the most difficult times, just for the short
term.

Mr. Thai Ngoc Minh continued: “Fortunately for his business, he has spent enough
time in the industry which was invested in startups so he can change immediately.
You can see the problem right away. As for those who don’t work in your
confectionery industry in that problem, I’ll say frankly that they’ll lose for a long
time and even go bankrupt. Working as an employee, switch to being my own boss,
but I still returned to the same industry that I was once dedicated to, especially when
my old company was so big. I was thinking it was so big and bought by a foreign
country. Can your subsidiary company survive for a long time. With 25 years work
experience as a business owner, manufacturer experience does not compensate for the
experience of a business owner. You are starting to study to create sustainability for
your business. Learn to be self-reliant , not learn as an employee. That’s what I
mean.”

CEO Phan Van Minh replied: “Your analyzed very correctly the mindset between a
person who works for an employee and someone who invests to do it themselves.
The difference is quite big. The transformation in the mindset of an employee and
self-owned investor requires a whole process. You mentally prepared and evaluated
however empiricism is my habit, I do it after a very long time, I don’t have to worry
about finances, I come up with a strategy and then other departments carry it out. But
now there are things that have to be done by myself. There are things that I have to
worry about and calculate and most basic thing is till the cash flow, and how I solve
this.”

MC Nguyen Khang:'' I have a question for Van Minh, why don't you think of an
option to join another confectionery company, another company, with your
experience, you will be recruited with a very high position. But you jumped out and
started your own brand with recklessness of the potential problems you might have if
lose a business that actually wasn’t founded by you yet I have attached since the first
day I graduated from the university and together we built it from up form a very
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small age to become a number 1 business in Viet Nam, When I lost it, I really
regretted and not just an individual and brothers who accompany me in the early days
all had the same feeling. We discuss it with each other and decided that I should go
and go on our own. I don't really need to go work elsewhere. The business they’ve
just bought, they also gave me really great preferential policies that were wonderful.
And I also want to start another confectionery business in Viet Nam that will also
have a certain position in Vietnamese market in the future.

MC Nguyen Khang wondered: “So the reason why the name of the business is Santa
and this product line as the work Mary?”

CEO Phan Van Minh: “I think it’s very simply, confectionery is about sharing and
have fun while eating cake, everyone has to by a cake, so we share together, So what
do we share? Share joy, Santa is from Santa Claus who is a person who specializes in
giving gifts and brings joy to families, Mery is from Merry Christmas. I really want
to bring Mary to every family. Second, I don’t think this company will only in Viet
Nam, if we give it a purely Vietnamese name and bring it to neighbor countries. It
will be very difficult for us to do brand communication activities and for making
them understand the explanation will be very difficult. “

Mr. Le Phung Hao: “I want to ask Mr. Minh for Santa’s competitive with the foreign
business that is buying your old company, with those marketer segments and areas
how will you face and the distribution problems you must solve to how your products
can enter the market and reach customers and especially for business, I think that the
cos of investing in a brand after Tet period is very limited.

CEO Phan Van Minh: “If you do something that exists, it’s available, it’s easy to do,
then you do it first in the future. In the production of marketing and in Asian
business, people often say that it is new and different. First, will consumers accept,
Secondly, you have to educate consumers, you have to introduce them to know, so
that is time-wasting. When a business is just starting to be established and
participating in business, I choose a product line with a large market scale that is
already available on the market for me to join. I can enter the market so I can have
the cash flow and manage to survive and then I can come up with new things,
strange, unique things and after I can get out of the battle. Then right after the part
where I have problems, I accelerated the process of launching new products that was
now completely different. At the same time, we cooperated, we cooperated both
domestically and internationally. Luckily, international partners are also fortunate
that when working with them, they know their work history, where I had worked. So,
when working with them, they understand how I do things like workers in
multinational corporations, knowing how to cooperate with a proper roadmap, they
are very willing to cooperate with us and have product lines that are not only
different in Viet Nam but very unique all over the world. There are businesses that
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CEO Key to Success

have specialized in this industry for 123 years are willing to join with Santa to work
in the Vietnamese market. Those are the first basic steps. First of all, when dealing
with product and distribution, you can see that small and medium in Viet Nam and
Asian will lack resources to do distribution, first of all, finance to support, the second
is experience, not everyone has experience making switch distribution system, so
why don’t we play together and that will be the second step to how I can get a
portfolio and solve the distribution system and we can reduce cost, and increase our
portfolio to enter the second phase in the initially calculated roadmap and the third
roadmap will have a different direction. In order to help the company grow and be
independent about your brand and products.”

Mr. Le Phung Hao: “Now you can draw on your strengths to help you compete with
businesses that grow and you have to emphasize. The basics are still the product
portfolio, you have to have prudent that re truly ne and different, second thing is that
you have to be more flexible than others. Well, let’s just it simple, like a company is
difficult for them to deploy in this area an operational way in another area and they
will have a unified and consistent system nationwide, but for business that understand
the market and are just starting Like Santa, what you can do flexibly is completely in
your hands and that will be advantage to help you win the marketer, “

Mr. Le Phung Hao added: “So the conclusion is that for small businesses, but success
is, firstly having to use creativity to compensate for experience. Yes, and secondly,
having to use speed and flexibility to replace the advantage of scale.”

Mc Nguyen Khang: “Yes, thank you for sharing your stories. Here the problem that
Mr. Minh has found for his business is to quickly change and actively innovate to
create new product lines and conquer the market. Thank you for the sharing of Mr.
Thai Quoc Minh and especially the sharing of Mr. Le Phung Hao in today’s
conversation and also hope that Mr. Santa’s business. As well as Mary will become
the pride of the Vietnamese cake beans when entering this market and more
importantly, it will bring happiness to all those who use and eat cake. The cake is like
the name Mary that I’m talking about is sharing joy with everyone.”

REFERENCE MATERIALS
1) Nhã Nam, Phan Văn Minh, Chủ tịch HĐQT Công Ty Cổ Phần Thực phẩm Santa: Quyết
liệt vì giác mơ thương hiệu Việt, Báo Đầu tư, https://baodautu.vn/doanh-nhan-phan-van-
minh-quyet-liet-vi-giac-mo-thuong-hieu-viet-d96508.html, day 08/03/2024.
2) Việt Hưng, Dù từng làm sếp lớn, khởi nghiệp vẫn sai như thường, The
Leader,https://theleader.vn/du-tung-lam-sep-lon-khoi-nghiep-van-sai-nhu-thuong-
1552638236136.html, day 08/3/2024.
3) Dantri.com.vn, Doanh nhân Phan Văn Minh: Tư duy làm chủ khác tư duy làm thuê, Dân
Trí, https://dantri.com.vn/kinh-doanh/doanh-nhan-phan-van-minh-tu-duy-lam-chu-khac-tu-
duy-lam-thue-20190307230358385.html, day 08/03/2024.

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CEO Key to Success
4) Ánh Dương, Doanh nhân Phan Minh Thông - “Vượt lên, những con đường kinh
doanh” ,CafeF, https://cafef.vn/doanh-nhan-phan-minh-thong-vuot-len-nhung-con-duong-
kinh-doanh-20211125171947015.chn, day 08/03/2024.

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