Transription
Wrong, well, I've never
Respondent 1
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00:00:14 Speaker 2
This is the puzzle of
conditions where crime and
the disordered mind are
related.
00:00:20 Speaker 2
We're concerned here with
the psychopath, the man
without a conscience.
00:00:26 Speaker 2
He used the greatest concern
to criminologists and two
psychiatrists.
00:00:30 Speaker 2
All those interested in
antisocial behavior.
00:00:34 Speaker 2
If a man.
00:00:35 Speaker 2
Can't distinguish between
right and wrong?
00:00:38 Speaker 2
Is he sick and are ready to?
00:00:40 Speaker 2
Be in a.
00:00:40 Speaker 2
Mental hospital?
00:00:41 Speaker 2
Or is he a criminal and
shouldn't be locked up in
jail?
00:00:44 Speaker 2
These are the questions that
come up time and time
again.
00:00:47 Speaker 2
In this case this.
00:00:49 Speaker 2
Man who served determine
the penitentiary.
00:00:51 Speaker 2
He has been in a psychiatric
ward.
00:00:53 Speaker 2
The police know him as a
convicted burglar.
00:00:56 Speaker 2
The psychiatrists call him a
psychopathic personality.
00:01:00 Speaker 2
This is the psychiatrist,
Doctor Henry Ross, who has
worked with the puzzle of
this man.
00:01:05 Speaker 3
Does it ever bother you
when they do something?
00:01:06 Speaker 4
regretted before.
00:01:09 Speaker 4
I'd only regret it afterwards,
particularly if I was caught.
00:01:12 Speaker 2
This is Bob.
00:01:13 Speaker 2
Boaters store and postal
station that he broke into.
00:01:16 Speaker 5
Inspectors were notified, and
from the postal authorities
when they came in and we
went through the invent
inventories, we discovered
that over $1700 worth of
stamps were missing.
00:01:27 Speaker 2
This is Detective Sergeant
Mackenzie, who arrested
him.
00:01:31 Speaker 6
And I I find them.
00:01:32 Speaker 6
In my experience, it was a
very strange chap.
00:01:35 Speaker 6
And a very smart man with
initially non-existent
accounts.
00:01:39 Speaker 2
This is the Federal Training
center.
00:01:41 Speaker 2
Where under deputy warden
Laferriere
00:01:44 Speaker 7
Oh no, never never.
00:01:45 Speaker 7
It was never a disciplinary
problem.
00:01:47 Speaker 2
This is the building where he
reported to his probation
officer, Bill Connell.
00:01:51 Speaker 6
I've lost track of the number
of jobs I got for him.
00:01:55 Speaker 6
Maybe 15 different jobs?
00:01:58 Speaker 2
And the question comes
where does he?
00:02:00 Speaker 2
Where does society go next?
00:02:03 Speaker 3
What do you think the
chances are?
00:02:04 Speaker 3
If you're getting into further
trouble like you have up to
now, serious trouble.
00:02:11 Speaker 2
Do you agree Doctor Drost
that his chances getting in
serious trouble Arnel?
00:02:16 Speaker 3
I'm afraid I don't both.
00:02:19 Speaker 3
In my experience with this
particular patient and in
general.
00:02:22 Speaker 3
In fact, it's almost inevitable.
00:02:25 Speaker 3
What well, the psychopath is,
characteristically, an
individual rule.
00:02:31 Speaker 3
Chest is unable to follow a
plan of action through its
logical conclusion.
00:02:37 Speaker 3
They are basically
irresponsible people.
00:02:40 Speaker 3
While being at the same time
intelligent and manifesting
all kinds of.
00:02:45 Speaker 3
Innate capabilities.
00:02:46 Speaker 3
They don't seem to be able
to sustain this.
00:02:50 Speaker 3
They're they're subject to
their whims there.
00:02:54 Speaker 3
Frustration tolerance is low if
they want to do something,
they do it on the moment
with little or no regard for
the consequences either for
themselves and
unfortunately for other
people.
00:03:03 Speaker 2
What made in this way?
00:03:06 Speaker 3
Well, I suspect that many of
these people in their early
childhood.
00:03:12 Speaker 3
Did not have the opportunity
to form really satisfying
relationships with their
parents and with other
people, and they grow up
with some kind of innate in
capacity to establish
meaningful relationships
with other people so that
when they disappoint others
as they repeatedly do.
00:03:32 Speaker 3
It just has no impression on
them.
00:03:36 Speaker 2
Let us now look at some of
the things this.
00:03:37 Speaker 2
Man has done.
00:03:39 Speaker 3
How far back do you date
this difficulty of?
00:03:41 Speaker 3
While you caught being wild.
00:03:44 Speaker 4
What time was about 10?
00:03:47 Speaker 3
What happened then?
00:03:49 Speaker 4
Well, I saw some older boys
smoking and I decided to try
it.
00:03:54 Speaker 4
So I always hung out with a
crowd that was several years
older than me.
00:03:57 Speaker 4
I never hung out with
anyone.
00:03:58 Speaker 4
My own aunt was always
older.
00:04:02 Speaker 3
Did you get in?
00:04:02 Speaker 4
And of course to be accepted
well, I had to be just a little
bit more daring than them.
00:04:07 Speaker 3
Did you get into any serious
trouble?
00:04:10 Speaker 3
At that age.
00:04:12 Speaker 4
No, not until I was about 16.
00:04:16 Speaker 3
16 Yes, what happened?
00:04:19 Speaker 4
Well, I always wondered
around town with a gun.
00:04:23 Speaker 3
Even then you started
carrying guns, oils.
00:04:26 Speaker 3
I think you've always had an
interest.
00:04:27 Speaker 3
In them well.
00:04:28 Speaker 4
I know what they're capable
of doing and bit of an expert
on them.
00:04:32 Speaker 4
They've always appealed to
me because they they give a
sense of power.
00:04:37 Speaker 4
And I like power.
00:04:39 Speaker 4
I'd like to be able to control
others.
00:04:42 Speaker 4
I usually always carry them
too.
00:04:43 Speaker 4
It wasn't because I wanted
to.
00:04:46 Speaker 4
Use them.
00:04:49 Speaker 4
I mean I.
00:04:50 Speaker 4
I imagine I'd be capable, but
at the time I didn't want to
use one as a hold up or or
killing or anything like that
knows.
00:04:58 Speaker 3
What is the most serious
thing that you've done that
you've been caught?
00:05:01 Speaker 4
For where the post office.
00:05:04 Speaker 3
The post office where he was
involved there.
00:05:06 Speaker 4
Well, well, I went into the
place and I made a
withdrawal.
00:05:13 Speaker 4
At night
00:05:18 Speaker 5
The man came in through
the through the through the
open, transform down their
their step ladders here, and
went over into the post
office, which was a
substation number one.
00:05:28 Speaker 5
At that time, all the draw has
been forced.
00:05:32 Speaker 5
Then the contents all over
the place.
00:05:35 Speaker 5
And of course we could not
touch it until the postal
authorities.
00:05:37 Speaker 5
We are notified and the
inspectors were there in no
time.
00:05:41 Speaker 3
How did it come like?
00:05:42 Speaker 3
They knew it, but you had.
00:05:43 Speaker 4
Done it, somebody goofed.
00:05:46 Speaker 4
I talked to Daniel.
00:05:47 Speaker 4
Well, I talked too much.
00:05:48 Speaker 4
It was my own fault.
00:05:50 Speaker 4
I started bragging about it.
00:05:52 Speaker 4
When you do something like
that, and then if she's got no
nobody to tell it to.
00:05:56 Speaker 4
I mean, it sort of takes the.
00:05:58 Speaker 3
Expedia draft.
00:05:59 Speaker 4
Yeah Jonathan.
00:06:01 Speaker 4
So I pulled it to the wrong
people and that a particular
person got caught for
something else and to try
and get pressure off him.
00:06:10 Speaker 4
He turned around, turned
me in.
00:06:12 Speaker 4
And then for me to get
pressure off offering me, I
turned the other.
00:06:16 Speaker 2
This car is driven by
Detective Sergeant Gordon
Mackenzie, who investigated
the case.
00:06:20 Speaker 6
He led us to a gang of well
known receivers who had at
host in eastern part of the
city where we succeeded in
recovering some of the
stolen stamps.
00:06:30 Speaker 6
And then after that, and, uh,
search in a downtown house
and he asked me for a lot of
my revolver to to be the first.
00:06:41 Speaker 6
Come up the stairs, which I
thought was very strange
and I told him at the time
that he'd better leave.
00:06:45 Speaker 6
That work to us.
00:06:47 Speaker 2
The director of the
Rehabilitation service is
Frank Roberts.
00:06:50 Speaker 8
He committed a pretty
serious crime for breaking
and entering.
00:06:54 Speaker 8
Fact, but the judge didn't
want to settle the man.
00:06:59 Speaker 8
With a jail sentence.
00:07:01 Speaker 8
He asked us, asked our
representative in court if we
could study their case and
see what we could
recommend.
00:07:09 Speaker 8
Our representative, Mr
Connell brought young men
to our office. We had a long
discussion with him with
hand in very jobs, and then
we realized that because of
the man's unfortunate past.
00:07:25 Speaker 8
A very unsatisfactory
childhood.
00:07:29 Speaker 8
No guidance.
00:07:29 Speaker 8
In his adult years.
00:07:32 Speaker 8
We decided that he was a
medical problem and other
social problem.
00:07:38 Speaker 8
We then called in a lot of
Community resources,
doctors, psychiatrists,
psychologists that they're
done hospital Allen
Memorial Hospital.
00:07:49 Speaker 8
The Royal Victoria Hospital.
00:07:52 Speaker 8
Social workers in other fields
and we attempted to solve
this boys mental problem.
00:07:59 Speaker 2
This is Verdun Protestant
hospital.
00:08:01 Speaker 2
Their records quote this man
is saying I have no morals, no
scruples, no emotions, no
particular feeling for
anybody.
00:08:08 Speaker 2
The record says a year ago I
saw a psychiatrist.
00:08:11 Speaker 2
But there was a difference of
opinion.
00:08:13 Speaker 2
He told me I was crazy.
00:08:15 Speaker 2
I thought he was.
00:08:16 Speaker 4
The reasons why actually
came the hospital was 'cause
that suicide attempt.
00:08:20 Speaker 4
That was one of the main.
00:08:21 Speaker 3
Reasons suicide attempt.
00:08:23 Speaker 4
Well, when I took the pills
and went to the rovick and
had my stomach pumped
out.
00:08:29 Speaker 4
I'm trying to shoot the doctor
in the bargain.
00:08:32 Speaker 3
Well, let's take that one thing
at a time.
00:08:33 Speaker 3
Do you remember why you
took the pills?
00:08:36 Speaker 4
Yes, I I didn't want to appear
in court and I was supposed
to be scheduled to appear in
court a couple of days later
and I I.
00:08:42 Speaker 4
Wasn't looking forward to.
00:08:43 Speaker 3
It did you take enough that
you was any real?
00:08:46 Speaker 3
Risk of dying.
00:08:47 Speaker 3
I didn't think so.
00:08:50 Speaker 4
It didn't really occur to you
that there was any possibility
of dying.
00:08:53 Speaker 4
Well, no, because I didn't
intend to die, although I
might have because it's hard
to judge our the quantity and
what it will do to you.
00:09:01 Speaker 3
He mentioned something
about trying to shoot the
doctor.
00:09:03 Speaker 4
Yes, well when he was
pumping my stomach out I
mean.
00:09:07 Speaker 4
I didn't care for that too
much because.
00:09:09 Speaker 4
He was ruining my.
00:09:10 Speaker 4
My scheme I try to shoot.
00:09:13 Speaker 3
You're seeing.
00:09:15 Speaker 4
Well, yes 'cause I I wanted to
take its natural course.
00:09:18 Speaker 3
See, but I don't quite see
how getting your stomach
pumped out would change
that.
00:09:21 Speaker 3
Did you feel they just pump?
00:09:22 Speaker 3
You and then send you
home.
00:09:23 Speaker 4
Yet I still have to go to court
and that's right.
00:09:26 Speaker 3
I see and you went to the
hospital after that.
00:09:30 Speaker 4
To Verdun yes.
00:09:34 Speaker 3
I think I remember you're
calling me one time.
00:09:38 Speaker 3
And you told me that you're
in a telephone.
00:09:40 Speaker 3
Booth and it.
00:09:40 Speaker 3
Was practically literally full
of.
00:09:42 Speaker 4
Blood yes, I know.
00:09:45 Speaker 4
You're welcome, penny.
00:09:46 Speaker 3
Was this part of your
histrionic?
00:09:50 Speaker 4
Yes, because I I had to pay in
the stomach and whenever I
had a pain I always thought,
well, this is it.
00:09:57 Speaker 3
You are in a real panic
though, then I think he's
always been afraid if
something happened.
00:09:59 Speaker 4
That's a lot.
00:10:01 Speaker 4
To your stomach.
00:10:02 Speaker 4
Well, I've always had a
mortal fear of a of an
internal hemorrhage.
00:10:05 Speaker 4
I don't know why.
00:10:08 Speaker 4
Probably because it's fatal.
00:10:11 Speaker 3
So that you've been afraid of
dying because of something
bad happening inside.
00:10:15 Speaker 4
Of you.
00:10:16 Speaker 4
Yes, but it's not the death
itself.
00:10:20 Speaker 4
It's the manner of.
00:10:20 Speaker 4
Dying when I was always fair.
00:10:23 Speaker 3
What's your name?
00:10:25 Speaker 4
Well, I like.
00:10:27 Speaker 4
I've always liked to be
dramatic and under certain
circumstances I wouldn't
object to dying.
00:10:33 Speaker 4
Provided it results set up
according to the way I liked
it.
00:10:38 Speaker 3
I think I recall your.
00:10:40 Speaker 3
Telling me when I was
treating you before that if
you died.
00:10:45 Speaker 3
This would have rather
unpleasant consequences.
00:10:48 Speaker 4
For me, yes yes.
00:10:50 Speaker 4
Because at the time you
didn't believe that there was
anything wrong inside.
00:10:55 Speaker 4
But I didn't believe you.
00:10:57 Speaker 4
And I, I told I had told you as
a threat to a certain extent,
that if I went well that should
be joining me very shortly.
00:11:05 Speaker 3
How were you going to
arrange that?
00:11:08 Speaker 4
Oh, there's a lot of people.
00:11:09 Speaker 4
In town that would would
have done it.
00:11:11 Speaker 4
More cross I never did do it.
00:11:12 Speaker 4
I never made the
arrangement.
00:11:13 Speaker 4
It was a.
00:11:15 Speaker 3
And you told me that you
had arranged to have me
killed, and I think that the
doctor would treated you.
00:11:20 Speaker 3
At another hospital, yes.
00:11:24 Speaker 4
But that was a bluff.
00:11:28 Speaker 4
Of course, the only way for
me to call it was hard to drop
dead.
00:11:33 Speaker 3
You have gotten involved,
though in some pretty
complicated.
00:11:39 Speaker 4
Yes, I I seem to go in for the
complicated ones rather
than simple ones.
00:11:45 Speaker 3
I remember an incident here
at the hospital when you had
collected a lot of money.
00:11:50 Speaker 3
For an entertainment and
you took off for a weekend
without permission and took
the money with you and
spend it.
00:11:58 Speaker 3
Do you remember what your
feelings were when you
came back and had to face
the.
00:12:01 Speaker 3
People that are converted to
the money.
00:12:02 Speaker 4
I will give you.
00:12:02 Speaker 4
I was very embarrassed.
00:12:04 Speaker 3
It isn't associated with any
feeling yourself that you've
done something wrong.
00:12:08 Speaker 4
Well, sometimes if it's a I
guess an individual, I'll feel
sorry for it and I'll regret
doing it.
00:12:13 Speaker 4
But if it's against a group,
doesn't bother me.
00:12:16 Speaker 2
Well, this young man
certainly gives the
impression of understanding
his inner workings.
00:12:21 Speaker 2
How much of this is true?
00:12:23 Speaker 3
Well, I agree one would think
that he has really deep
insight into what he's doing
and the causes part and the
need to correct this kind of
behavior in the future.
00:12:33 Speaker 3
But if you follow this kind of
person along, we find that
this.
00:12:38 Speaker 3
Insight that seems so deep
actually doesn't penetrate
below the surface at all.
00:12:42 Speaker 3
It's as if they are using words
that have no meaning to
them, and in any way.
00:12:47 Speaker 2
But it must be very.
00:12:48 Speaker 2
Persuasive on 1st prompt
and.
00:12:50 Speaker 3
I'm afraid it is they they are
very persuasive.
00:12:53 Speaker 3
People are often quite.
00:12:54 Speaker 3
Charming and engaging and
they.
00:12:57 Speaker 3
Are quite capable of enlisting
the help of a lot of well
meaning people who try very
hard to help them realize
they've gotten into a lot of
difficulty, seems somehow to
sense that their difficulties
are on the basis of
something emotionally
wrong with them rather than
simply criminal behavior, for
example.
00:13:17 Speaker 3
But I'm afraid in most
instances their efforts are
generally to no avail at all.
00:13:23 Speaker 2
But he seems just an
irresponsible person.
00:13:26 Speaker 3
Well, irresponsible inocente.
00:13:28 Speaker 3
But if one looks over from
the long range point of view,
what he's done over the past
few years, it amounts to
more than simple
irresponsibility has all kinds
of golden opportunities to do
something for himself, and
he blows them every time.
00:13:41 Speaker 2
And then gets into criminal
activity is what's different
screen to him and.
00:13:44 Speaker 2
Another criminal
00:13:45 Speaker 3
Well, in this patient the
criminal activity seems to be
purely on impulse.
00:13:50 Speaker 3
It doesn't even have any
good reason for it.
00:13:52 Speaker 3
The the so called normal
criminal robs a bank for the
$10,000 he gets out of.
00:13:57 Speaker 3
It and for.
00:13:58 Speaker 3
What it will buy him the
psychopath robs not so much
for the joy of stealing as the
kleptomaniac.
00:14:06 Speaker 3
But simply because he wants
something right now and he
goes and gets it and takes it
regardless of the
consequences.
00:14:12 Speaker 2
Were you implying that he's
a sick person?
00:14:14 Speaker 3
Yes, I would certainly say
that he's sick.
00:14:16 Speaker 3
I think it's difficult meeting
him, say, in the court room
or in the psychiatrist office to
say that he's sick.
00:14:22 Speaker 3
He seems to behave
perfectly well.
00:14:23 Speaker 3
He thinks.
00:14:24 Speaker 3
Clearly seems to understand.
00:14:26 Speaker 3
What he's doing.
00:14:27 Speaker 3
What he says, done, and
what he should do.
00:14:29 Speaker 3
But the moment he leaves
and he does quite the
opposite.
00:14:32 Speaker 3
And one has to look at him
from a longitudinal point of
view and see that an
individual with all his
capacities has simply.
00:14:40 Speaker 3
Failed over and over again
for no adequate reasons.
00:14:43 Speaker 2
Well, can you cure him?
00:14:46 Speaker 3
Cure my doubt it.
00:14:47 Speaker 3
I don't think this man really is
susceptible to successful
treatment.
00:14:52 Speaker 3
Think it's really more a
question of protecting the
Community from his
damaging activities.
00:14:58 Speaker 2
Is this because scatter
doesn't know enough, or
because it's just?
00:15:02 Speaker 3
Well, perhaps a bit of both.
00:15:04 Speaker 3
I think as far as the second
part of your question is
concerned, that these
people, probably because of
damaging experiences in
their childhood or some
genetic factor that they
inherit, are unable to relate
and therefore unable to use
treatment.
00:15:19 Speaker 3
There's nothing to.
00:15:19 Speaker 3
Work with they.
00:15:20 Speaker 3
They're like who say the
cerebral palsy child, who has
a physical disability that he is
unable to walk correctly for
the rest of his life.
00:15:29 Speaker 3
And that has happened and
childhood 1 can't change it.
00:15:31 Speaker 3
These people have some
kind of emotional instability
disorder that probably
developed in their early
childhood and remains a
more or less.
00:15:40 Speaker 2
Next thing well then, is he
responsible for what he
does?
00:15:43 Speaker 3
Is very difficult problem in
the Court because he's
obviously competent.
00:15:49 Speaker 3
Certainly not insane.
00:15:51 Speaker 3
Then he is generally held
responsible for what he
00:15:53 Speaker 3
It does.
00:15:54 Speaker 3
What happened is that most
judges are so impressed by
the obviously pathological
history lying behind the
individual crime for which
you may be appearing to
recognize that this man
didn't.
00:16:07 Speaker 3
The ordinary run of the mill
criminal often refers to a
psychiatrist or psychiatric
unit for treatment.
00:16:13 Speaker 2
And they can't do anything
about him.
00:16:15 Speaker 3
And they very often fail.
00:16:16 Speaker 3
Discharge him back.
00:16:17 Speaker 3
Into the community.
00:16:19 Speaker 3
All too often he simply
carries on where he left off,
so he may go back and forth
between the judicial
authorities and the
psychiatric.
00:16:29 Speaker 3
Authorities in the in the
hospital sent.
00:16:32 Speaker 3
Without anything really
being done.
00:16:35 Speaker 2
Let's pick up the story again
at the Catholic Rehabilitation
Center with Frank Roberts.
00:16:41 Speaker 8
Eventually, after he'd been
out on probation for maybe.
00:16:45 Speaker 8
810 months we couldn't get
any further with him. He
would accept employment
almost any type of
employment. He considered
it beneath him, but he would
accept it and for various
reasons he threw it up after a
very short time.
00:16:59 Speaker 8
We we had various
discussions with him over
quite a period of time on
probation.
00:17:04 Speaker 8
We told him he wasn't
adjusting that we'd have to
give a bad report to the
judge and it he might have to
be sent to the penitentiary.
00:17:13 Speaker 8
Eventually, when he knew
we were giving a bad report
to the judge, he accepted his
sentence.
00:17:18 Speaker 8
He was sent to the
penitentiary.
00:17:20 Speaker 8
From there he was
transferred to the Federal
Training Center.
00:17:23 Speaker 8
He adjusted there pretty
well.
00:17:27 Speaker 8
Except for the fact that he
wanted to reorganize the
institution.
00:17:31 Speaker 2
This is the Federal Training
Center, where promising
young offenders sentenced
to penitentiary serve out
their sentences while being
retrained for life in society.
00:17:41 Speaker 2
It's very different from the
maximum security
penitentiary next door.
00:17:45 Speaker 2
Our subject was transferred
here.
00:17:47 Speaker 2
This is deputy warden Robert
Laferriere.
00:17:50 Speaker 6
And how was he as
president?
00:17:52 Speaker 7
Well, in a few words, it's
pretty hard to say, but I'll try
to tell you.
00:17:58 Speaker 7
And this much.
00:17:59 Speaker 7
At first it was pretty hard for
him to get adapted to the
institution.
00:18:04 Speaker 7
And then.
00:18:05 Speaker 7
A very active in wanting to
write and to improve his
education all the time.
00:18:12 Speaker 2
He read the Great deal,
didn't.
00:18:14 Speaker 7
A great deal, but of course he
had this mania about the.
00:18:18 Speaker 7
A military history and
strategy.
00:18:20 Speaker 2
What about that?
00:18:21 Speaker 7
Well, it was not unpleasant
to to hear him talk about it,
but it was.
00:18:27 Speaker 7
You had to to allow an awful
lot of free time too.
00:18:34 Speaker 7
To hear his story there
because it was Handless
actually there is no end to
him talking about that
particular subject, but you
enjoyed talking to him.
00:18:41 Speaker 7
Oh yes, Oh yes, he was very.
00:18:43 Speaker 7
It was a likeable fellow.
00:18:45 Speaker 7
As far as I'm concerned.
00:18:47 Speaker 7
I I used to even take some
short walks inside the
institution, whatever, but he
used to start anything.
00:18:54 Speaker 7
But he had to be pushed a bit
to finish them or keep up
with them.
00:19:00 Speaker 7
And there was a tendency
with him to start an awful lot
of things, and even to think
of many things, like for
instance when he had
problems used to make
suggestions for the to
improve the lot of all the
invasions institution.
00:19:13 Speaker 7
But the if you study the case
folder, you would find that it
was his problem that was
being.
00:19:18 Speaker 7
Uh, expose their.
00:19:21 Speaker 2
This I suppose.
00:19:21 Speaker 2
Became more clear when it
came time for.
00:19:24 Speaker 2
Him to leave.
00:19:25 Speaker 7
Yes, towards the end of his
sentence, anxiety was more
evident and he required
more attention or interviews.
00:19:35 Speaker 7
Of course, this is where our
friend, Mr.
00:19:37 Speaker 7
Connell came in and.
00:19:38 Speaker 7
Give us a hand there.
00:19:40 Speaker 2
Bill Connell was all men
probation officer.
00:19:43 Speaker 6
A short while ago he came
out of the penitentiary and
was again placed under our
supervision.
00:19:51 Speaker 6
He told me that he had
wrote an article.
00:19:54 Speaker 6
While in the penitentiary.
00:19:56 Speaker 6
And I read it, read part of it.
00:19:58 Speaker 6
And then I turned it over to
Mr.
00:20:00 Speaker 6
Levison of the Montreal
Gazette.
00:20:03 Speaker 6
Who read this article and he
expressed my opinion to me.
00:20:07 Speaker 6
If the boy wrote this, why he
had a future as a writer?
00:20:11 Speaker 9
I was amazed with what I
read.
00:20:14 Speaker 9
It was a long 10 or 15,000
word article on international
affairs and particularly on
efforts to affect World Peace.
00:20:24 Speaker 9
And contain proposals for
improving the situation.
00:20:30 Speaker 9
I realized that it wouldn't be
beyond possibility that he
was showing this work as his
own.
00:20:37 Speaker 9
Has some kind of con a work
that he had copied from
somebody else, so I asked to
see the young man.
00:20:44 Speaker 9
And had lunch with him and
during lunch hour I asked
him.
00:20:49 Speaker 9
To list his bibliography.
00:20:51 Speaker 9
For this article.
00:20:53 Speaker 9 00:21:39 Speaker 6
He floored me with the most We signed him up north.
formidable lists of standard
00:21:41 Speaker 6
texts on the whole subject
that one could ever want to He didn't stay there for any
hear, and in further length of time.
conversation with him, I was
firmly convinced that he had 00:21:44 Speaker 6
read all these books, not only He was right back in
read them, but fully Montreal.
understood them.
00:21:46 Speaker 6
00:21:09 Speaker 9
He was supposed to.
He also showed me some
other that it really works on 00:21:47 Speaker 6
a variety of subjects and they Go back on the job.
all had great literary merit.
00:21:48 Speaker 6
00:21:16 Speaker 9
He never went.
I am convinced that this boy
has great possibilities in the 00:21:50 Speaker 6
writing field.
Now he's no longer under
00:21:21 Speaker 6 our supervision.
Levison and I talked about 00:21:53 Speaker 6
this for some time.
His ticket of leave is expired.
00:21:24 Speaker 6
00:21:56 Speaker 6
And we decided that this boy
And I understand now he's
could get a job out of town
working in some nightclub as
up north somewhere where
a busboy.
you would have a lot of free
evenings where he could 00:22:01 Speaker 2
study it, and his writing
Well, a whole area of
career.
promise exploded since then.
00:21:34 Speaker 6
00:22:05 Speaker 2
So we brought this up with
He's been creating
this young fella and he said,
undercover gossip for what
well, that's alright.
he calls a scandal sheet.
00:21:38 Speaker 6
00:22:10 Speaker 2
I'm willing to go up north.
Garbage he calls.
00:22:11 Speaker 3
It you have been doing some
writing lately, I gather.
00:22:15 Speaker 4
Garbage, garbage well for
scandal sheet.
00:22:22 Speaker 3
Why are you doing?
00:22:22 Speaker 4
It because I know the city, I
know what's going on in this
city.
00:22:28 Speaker 3
What happens when you get
in a job and you?
00:22:30 Speaker 3
You start to lose interest in
it.
00:22:32 Speaker 4
I just don't show up I I.
00:22:34 Speaker 4
Don't often quit.
00:22:36 Speaker 4
Well, I don't.
00:22:37 Speaker 4
Even formally quit.
00:22:38 Speaker 4
I just don't come back.
00:22:40 Speaker 3
Have you any idea what?
00:22:42 Speaker 3
Lies behind this tendency,
viewers to lose interest so
quickly in things.
00:22:46 Speaker 4
But once I understand what
the job is all about and I can
do it well, I don't want to do
it.
00:22:52 Speaker 4
Anymore I got tired.
00:22:53 Speaker 4
Of it 'cause I don't like the
routine daily, the same
repetitiously sort of thing.
00:22:59 Speaker 3
What about what are your
long range plant?
00:23:05 Speaker 4
Well, sometimes I have
them, but I I think more of
the present and.
00:23:08 Speaker 4
In the future I.
00:23:10 Speaker 4
Mean like every everyone
else, I'd like to settle down,
get married, and raise a
family, but I probably won't.
00:23:17 Speaker 3
Why do you think you won't?
00:23:20 Speaker 4
Oh, I mean I'd have to give
up a heck of a lot.
00:23:23 Speaker 4
And at the present time I I
don't think I.
00:23:25 Speaker 4
Could what are you giving
up?
00:23:29 Speaker 4
My freedom, which is very
important.
00:23:33 Speaker 4
'cause the ability.
00:23:34 Speaker 4
To do what I want when I
want.
00:23:36 Speaker 4
But also mean I'd have to
assume responsibility.
00:23:39 Speaker 8
And I'd be.
00:23:40 Speaker 4
Tide to a certain place with
certain people.
00:23:45 Speaker 4
And a lot of things would be
expected out there.
00:23:48 Speaker 4
Now, whether or not I do
them, I don't know.
00:23:51 Speaker 4
I tried to buy affection rather
than because it's cheaper.
00:23:54 Speaker 4
I don't have to give anything.
00:23:57 Speaker 4
I don't have to give myself.
00:23:58 Speaker 4
Don't make friends easily
anyway.
00:24:01 Speaker 3
Why is that so?
00:24:03 Speaker 4
I never particularly wanted
them.
00:24:05 Speaker 4
Well, I wanted them, yes,
but.
00:24:07 Speaker 4
I never trusted them enough.
00:24:11 Speaker 4
I never wanted him to get
too closely.
00:24:14 Speaker 4
So that they would get.
00:24:15 Speaker 4
To normal what?
00:24:17 Speaker 3
What is this fear of people
getting too close to?
00:24:19 Speaker 4
While losing advantage, I
always look for that.
00:24:23 Speaker 4
I I very seldom give anyone
an advantage.
00:24:25 Speaker 4
I always try to keep it for
myself.
00:24:27 Speaker 3
Sort of a A1 up friendship.
Yes, all the time.
00:24:32 Speaker 4
Never give a sucker an even
break.
00:24:33 Speaker 4
Sort of thing, you know?
00:24:36 Speaker 3
But the interesting thing
about it is that in almost
invariably you're the one
who comes out.
00:24:40 Speaker 3
Second best, yes.
00:24:43 Speaker 4
I know.
00:24:45 Speaker 2
Is this man dangerous?
00:24:47 Speaker 3
I would say potentially yes,
when the condition itself is
certainly associated with
many instances of.
00:24:55 Speaker 3
Very severely, criminal
behavior, even to the extent
of homicide, is perhaps isn't
common, but it certainly has
occurred.
00:25:03 Speaker 2
And one of the people we
have seen.
00:25:05 Speaker 2
What do they think?
00:25:05 Speaker 6
About him now, his pattern
seems to be that he'll use
you for what he.
00:25:10 Speaker 6
Can get out of it.
00:25:12 Speaker 6
After he's got all he can get
out of you, well, he'll move
over to somebody else.
00:25:17 Speaker 6
And that way I I don't know if
he has any.
00:25:20 Speaker 6
What you might call friends
left by the way he's been
going on for the.
00:25:24 Speaker 6
Past three years.
00:25:28 Speaker 6
And personally, I feel that at
this time I just don't want
any more to do with them.
00:25:32 Speaker 6
My own personal opinion of
him is that it's only a matter
of time before he will be
back in our hands.
00:25:40 Speaker 8

Until he accepted limitations,

and until psychiatry has its
results, then we have to call
it a medical problem and no
longer a social problem.

00:25:52 Speaker 2

Well, if it is a medical
problem, we're ill equipped
to handle it because we have
no suitable institution to put
him into.

00:25:58 Speaker 2

If we're going to restrain and

treat psychopaths.

00:26:01 Speaker 2

And other offenders whose

basic problem is a disordered
mind.

00:26:05 Speaker 2

What we need is a
combination hospital and jail,
where the man can be
isolated and kept away from
society where he can't help
getting into trouble where he
can be treated.

00:26:15 Speaker 2

If this is possible, but most

importantly where he can be
studied so that we can
prevent this happening.

00:26:21 Speaker 2

In others.